For defense slots I go with hp. Better chance that the 600 or so hp you gain per slot will save you from death than 1-2% damage reduction I think. I have not actually tried to do any math for this though.
I haven't tested the lurkers thing that people are saying is an issue. If you are dropping out of stealth in lurkers though it's usually due to taking damage.
So have we found out what is a better stat attribute wise? What roll should we start off with? Should we do a 16-14-14, 18-13-13, 16-16-12??? What should we be picking while leveling up?
Strength is the best. I prefer dexterity second for the crit and deflection, but for raw throughput at end game charisma is probably a little better (possibly better than strength depending on party setup and player skill).
Off topic but how long does it take to farm enough AD for the zen it takes you to respec and roughly how much AD we talkin? You must have spent a fortune
I play the auction house and market to make AD. I did invest some base cash to get started but I've made good return on the initial investment. If you actually tried to farm the AD through dailies and the like it'd probably take weeks since you can only turn 24k rough astrals to full astrals per day.
A respec token costs 600 zen, which is somewhere near 220k AD off the exchange. So it'd literally take 10 days of farming. But if you run end game dungeons and sell the loot you can speed that up.
Strength is a flat damage buff that you get 100% of the time, and increases stamina regeneration. There is extensive math in a different forum showing that 1% damage will always be more valuable than 1% crit (except possibly at very extreme, and unobtainable, levels of crit severity). As for Charisma vs Dexterity basically the comparison is 4% CA damage and 4% pet stat bonus vs 4% crit and 4% deflect. I always value CA damage bonuses at about 75% or so of their face value since always having CA is unlikely. Even with that charisma *should* be stronger. But crit is still a very valuable stat. I changed the guide to say Dex >= Charisma. Mostly I just like having the high crit, given how important it is that our first bleed be a crit. And the pet stat bonuses will scale depending on how much you invest in your pet. For example, with my pet 4% stat bonus gets me a total of 105 stats. So it's not particularly valuable since that is spread over 4 stats. Better than nothing, but not particularly good.
Also updated drow racial, and reflected that drow is probably better than half orc. Faerie fire functions as a 3% damage buff if you mitigate the damage resistance of the enemy through armor pen.
I am also unsure whether 1 charisma = 1% CA damage or CA damage +1%. I have not tested this yet. Have you seen anyone do math for this?
@xemperormao The stone is also usually cheaper, and doesn't die randomly sometimes.
Does anyone have the thread/post that this is referring to? My google fu has failed me. It makes a lot of sense as crit severity starts off at 75% and that right off the bat puts crit at a disadvantage.
With 100% crit severity, we have a 1% change of doing 100% more damage which seems like you would start getting better returns then strength at at >100% crit severity. Plus this doesn't take into effect bleed and overrun critical which favors crit heavy builds. However, I'm sure there's a mechanic that prevents this from working properly. In fact how does overrun critical if you crit again? Does it do (damage) + (crit severity damage) + (.3*crit severity damage)?
Kinda hard to find a mechanics thread and too low level to test (though probably too lazy to test even if I had the level/gear).
Have you considered using Bait and Switch for trash as well as bosses? I've been testing it out and WOW I feel like I get my daily on every pull. It has actually improved my dps overall.
I love how it refills your stealth meter too when you're already stealthed.
I tested overrun critical. Enjoy. Keep in mind I am using averages for a lot of these numbers, so there is some margin of error, but it is definately within an acceptable range.
Here's the math:
Sly Crit without overrun: 2572.
Sly Crit immediately following with overrun: 3113.
Damage bonus % = (3113-2572)/2572 = ~21%. I have 100% crit severity so this does not add up correctly for a 30% bonus from that end, however, if we try it from the base damage, then apply crit severity, we can see the following:
Base hit (I took the average of 10 hits): 1260
Base hit + overrun critical: 1580
If we apply 100% crit severity:
Base hit: 1260*2 = 2520
Base hit + overrun critical: 1580*2 = 3160
Within a reasonable margin of error this is pretty accurate to what is actually observed. So what this means is that overrun critical applies 30% of your crit severity to your base damage, then your crit severity is applied to that new total.
I can also find that overrun critical does not include vorpal enchants when it draws from crit severity:
(1580-1260)/1260 = 25.4% This is closer to 30% of 75% than it is to 30% of 100%. So you can see that vorpal enchantment does not effect the actual damage bonus of overun critical. However I will show that it does still apply at the end of the calculation.
So the actual formula for how overrun critical is applied is:
(Damage + (Damage*0.3*0.75)) + CS
So you can see that overrun critical gives you a bonus of 30% of your character sheet crit severity to your base damage, which then is increased by your actual crit severity.
Cat has a belt whereas the Ioun stone has an Icon. Icon uses Offense enchant and Belt uses Defense. Cat gives 255 to Crit/Recovery, Ioun stone gives 180 to Crit/Power/Recovery. The rest is the same I think. Both give you 100% of their stats.
I had a question, does everyone use the Eldritch Rune for their defense slot to get more stats? Would this even work?
Cat has a belt whereas the Ioun stone has an Icon. Icon uses Offense enchant and Belt uses Defense. Cat gives 255 to Crit/Recovery, Ioun stone gives 180 to Crit/Power/Recovery. The rest is the same I think. Both give you 100% of their stats.
Since you do not get HP from your companion, i recommend this belt which an offense slot for the Cat:
I really want to like and use shocking execution... I really do, but you can do EVERYTHING shocking execution does, with Lurkers and some burst abilities.
LA > Stealth > Lashing will always crit, and often does more than shocking execution. Even if it falls short, you are still buffed 60% for a dazing strike, blitz, and a few wicked reminders.
I'm spec'd the same way as you for shocking execution to buff me afterwards, however, i find that 95% of the time, when I do use shocking execution, there is nothing left to hit, except maybe a little trash.
Finally, my feat spec differs in one way. I just saw the crop posted about the same thing. I put 5/5 into scoundrel for the 20% increased effectiveness of combat advantage, over the sabetour feat for 20% increased AP from stealth. I think the combat advantage is better, but lets hear your thoughts...
Also, can you link a DL to ACT
I have played with this... Back and forth... back and forth... respec after respec, and as it sits right now you are right. i wish the other rogues on Dragon Server would see this. Debated with 2 rogues in chat last night over this and they wont accept this fact. They strongly believe, and i quote, "Every other Rogue is using it, that is proof"
0
Options
fimconteMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have played with this... Back and forth... back and forth... respec after respec, and as it sits right now you are right. i wish the other rogues on Dragon Server would see this. Debated with 2 rogues in chat last night over this and they wont accept this fact. They strongly believe, and i quote, "Every other Rogue is using it, that is proof"
The question is: Is your stealth uptime high enough for the 20% extra AP beat the +20% extra combat advantage damage?
With 14 charisma, I only have 4% combat advantage, +20% of that is 0.8%. For 5 feat points that is quite bad.
I have disciple of strength at 2/3 from levelling when there wasn't enough information about it, so I need to respec anyway.
Just not sure if I want to go Cunning Stalker or Underhanded Tactics.
Fans Glory to the Gladiators,
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
geohinMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited May 2013
Metzli,
Thanks for the great post. What companion do you suggest for rogues that can't get the ioun stone or cat just yet? The cleric? Is there a lower-tier stat pet?
The "low" tier augmentation pet is actually the most expensive for some reason that I don't understand. There isn't really a pet that useful for dungeons other than augmentation pets though.
The "low" tier augmentation pet is actually the most expensive for some reason that I don't understand. There isn't really a pet that useful for dungeons other than augmentation pets though.
I think if one can't afford a Cat/Stone, then Cleric, Man-At-Arms or Dog (Dire Wolf) can be slightly useful.
I think maybe Dog (Dire Wolf) with Defence or Regeneration gear might be useful for the occasional knockback/stun, even if they'll be dead 90% of the time.
Fans Glory to the Gladiators,
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
you realy think a halfing is the worst choice regarding dps? why the ****?
for me its one of the best choices. dex +2 char +2, deflect, cc restists and a small charmodel (nice for pvp, usuallly)
You didn't miss the part where this is a dungeon dps guide right? We're optimizing for dps. Deflect , cc resists and being small do not make you do more dps, especially in a game where CC's and hits are all avoidable if you are playing well.
Also good chance that some of my racials are wrong since the people that write the descriptions do not seem to know the difference between the word "Or" and the word "And".
Updated racials to properly reflect ability score bonuses.
Based on your comprehensive guide, you mentioned that the priority of stats should be; STR > DEX > CHA. Does that still hold true? If so, what are your current stats? If I were to roll a half-orc, what should my starting stats be?
My half-orc rogue is currently level 30 sitting at 22 STR, 20 DEX and 16 CHA. He kicked off with 18 STR, 18 DEX and 12 CHA, and I've been adding STR and CHA ever since. Kinda wondering if I should reroll.
I still value them that way yes. I value charisma so low for a couple of reasons.
1. You don't always have combat advantage.
2. Crit rating is incredibly badly scaling, so the value of dexterity crit is pretty high.
3. You don't gain that much from 4%-8% bonus companion stats.
4. Strength is 1% damage, to all attacks. That's hard to beat.
If you roll a <Insert Class Here> you just want to maximize the stats in that order. Keep in mind also that you can get 12 intelligence from the roll, and take only 8 wisdom. (Intelligence is somewhat useful, wisdom is not).
At worst you've added 2 charisma instead of 2 dexterity at this point. Probably not worth a reroll just for that. If you ever do a zen respec you get to rechoose those stats anyway.
Comments
I haven't tested the lurkers thing that people are saying is an issue. If you are dropping out of stealth in lurkers though it's usually due to taking damage.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Off topic but how long does it take to farm enough AD for the zen it takes you to respec and roughly how much AD we talkin? You must have spent a fortune
A respec token costs 600 zen, which is somewhere near 220k AD off the exchange. So it'd literally take 10 days of farming. But if you run end game dungeons and sell the loot you can speed that up.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Does anyone have the thread/post that this is referring to? My google fu has failed me. It makes a lot of sense as crit severity starts off at 75% and that right off the bat puts crit at a disadvantage.
With 100% crit severity, we have a 1% change of doing 100% more damage which seems like you would start getting better returns then strength at at >100% crit severity. Plus this doesn't take into effect bleed and overrun critical which favors crit heavy builds. However, I'm sure there's a mechanic that prevents this from working properly. In fact how does overrun critical if you crit again? Does it do (damage) + (crit severity damage) + (.3*crit severity damage)?
Kinda hard to find a mechanics thread and too low level to test (though probably too lazy to test even if I had the level/gear).
Edit: nm found the post
I love how it refills your stealth meter too when you're already stealthed.
Here's the math:
Sly Crit without overrun: 2572.
Sly Crit immediately following with overrun: 3113.
Damage bonus % = (3113-2572)/2572 = ~21%. I have 100% crit severity so this does not add up correctly for a 30% bonus from that end, however, if we try it from the base damage, then apply crit severity, we can see the following:
Base hit (I took the average of 10 hits): 1260
Base hit + overrun critical: 1580
If we apply 100% crit severity:
Base hit: 1260*2 = 2520
Base hit + overrun critical: 1580*2 = 3160
Within a reasonable margin of error this is pretty accurate to what is actually observed. So what this means is that overrun critical applies 30% of your crit severity to your base damage, then your crit severity is applied to that new total.
I can also find that overrun critical does not include vorpal enchants when it draws from crit severity:
(1580-1260)/1260 = 25.4% This is closer to 30% of 75% than it is to 30% of 100%. So you can see that vorpal enchantment does not effect the actual damage bonus of overun critical. However I will show that it does still apply at the end of the calculation.
So the actual formula for how overrun critical is applied is:
(Damage + (Damage*0.3*0.75)) + CS
EX: (1260 + (1260*0.3*0.75)) + 100% = (1260 + 283.5) + 100% = 1543.5 * 2 = 3087
So you can see that overrun critical gives you a bonus of 30% of your character sheet crit severity to your base damage, which then is increased by your actual crit severity.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
@ Hellion, for me bait and switch is a mandatory skill, except pvp. so much utility in one skill, amazing.
I had a question, does everyone use the Eldritch Rune for their defense slot to get more stats? Would this even work?
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Since you do not get HP from your companion, i recommend this belt which an offense slot for the Cat:
I do not really understand why anyone would buy a cat at this point though. You can get a stone for cheaper.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
I have played with this... Back and forth... back and forth... respec after respec, and as it sits right now you are right. i wish the other rogues on Dragon Server would see this. Debated with 2 rogues in chat last night over this and they wont accept this fact. They strongly believe, and i quote, "Every other Rogue is using it, that is proof"
Berserker's has 133 crit, 133 arp and 110 recovery.
They can both get the 243, 133 stat combinations as well.
If you do not want/need power, then Occult Belt or Berseker Belt are superior options.
The question is: Is your stealth uptime high enough for the 20% extra AP beat the +20% extra combat advantage damage?
With 14 charisma, I only have 4% combat advantage, +20% of that is 0.8%. For 5 feat points that is quite bad.
I have disciple of strength at 2/3 from levelling when there wasn't enough information about it, so I need to respec anyway.
Just not sure if I want to go Cunning Stalker or Underhanded Tactics.
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
How does it compare to Cunning Stalker though?
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
It's probably a superior choice for low Cha TR's.
Give Zen Trader back so I can buy a respec token
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
Thanks for the great post. What companion do you suggest for rogues that can't get the ioun stone or cat just yet? The cleric? Is there a lower-tier stat pet?
EDIT: at level 60, for epic dungeons
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
I think if one can't afford a Cat/Stone, then Cleric, Man-At-Arms or Dog (Dire Wolf) can be slightly useful.
I think maybe Dog (Dire Wolf) with Defence or Regeneration gear might be useful for the occasional knockback/stun, even if they'll be dead 90% of the time.
Gods Glory to the Heroes.
TR:Anirul Corrino@Fimconte
GF:Irulan Corrino@Fimconte
for me its one of the best choices. dex +2 char +2, deflect, cc restists and a small charmodel (nice for pvp, usuallly)
Also good chance that some of my racials are wrong since the people that write the descriptions do not seem to know the difference between the word "Or" and the word "And".
Updated racials to properly reflect ability score bonuses.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.
Based on your comprehensive guide, you mentioned that the priority of stats should be; STR > DEX > CHA. Does that still hold true? If so, what are your current stats? If I were to roll a half-orc, what should my starting stats be?
1. You don't always have combat advantage.
2. Crit rating is incredibly badly scaling, so the value of dexterity crit is pretty high.
3. You don't gain that much from 4%-8% bonus companion stats.
4. Strength is 1% damage, to all attacks. That's hard to beat.
If you roll a <Insert Class Here> you just want to maximize the stats in that order. Keep in mind also that you can get 12 intelligence from the roll, and take only 8 wisdom. (Intelligence is somewhat useful, wisdom is not).
At worst you've added 2 charisma instead of 2 dexterity at this point. Probably not worth a reroll just for that. If you ever do a zen respec you get to rechoose those stats anyway.
You can also see a better formatted version of the guide here.