I want to make just one precisation: GWF can destroy DPS charts ONLY on masses of mobs if the rogue in your party or the wizard in your party are less geared/skilled than you. I invite you to find a very good rogue or wizard and try outdpess them: even with a lot of mobs you'll have very hard time doing it because the at-will powers of the class are the weakest of all.
True. I get that all the time, unless I out-gear TR/CW, I can be top of the chart in dungeon (slam and weapon master strike all the time with a bunch of mobs). ~ gear, well, that's another story.
In PvP, at-will is a joke, can't even drop 1/5 of a CW hp with Unstoppable on, mostly depends on my encounters and daily - if they are on cd, I just run around or sprint out of the battle - no point to stand and try to hit them at-will. If I can't kill them in one skill rotation with critical hits, I'm done for.
0
rynoblazed1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
Being a level 60 Great Weapons Fighters, I feel the single target damage is lacking. Area of Effect damage is fine (If the mobs stay grouped and stop running around chasing clerics/mages)
I'm about to make another thread touching on this issue, but here's how I see it.
The GWF is stupid painful to level from 1-16. It then gets a lot easier with a Cleric companion. Around level 30-35 you start wondering what you were complaining about. Then at level 50 you start thinking maybe the GWF is OP.
At level 50, running all the way up the destroyer tree with the cap stone and some Sentinel debuffs, I have no issues tanking in Dungeons. The 'tanking' GWF abilities are...amazing.
Currently, I'm running the following abilities:
Passives:
Destroyer
Weapon Master
At-Will:
Weapon Master Strike
Reaping Strike
Encounters:
Come and Get It
Not So Fast
Daring Shout
Dailies:
Slam
Crescendo
Now, these are tanking abilities right? Wrong.
It's a debuff DPS rotation that keeps the add's right where you want them. In the burn pile.
Throw out your Come and Get It in the middle of everything, pop your Not So Fast to keep them slow and manageable, then throw your Daring Shout. If you have Unstoppable up, pop it and throw out three to five weapon master strikes to get your stacks/armor debuff's rolling while Daring Shout is adding it's debuff to the mix, then switch to Weapon Master Strike/Reaping Strike and alternate those until Come and Get It is back up. Your Reaping Strike crits will be obscene. I had a 10k crit at level 48 or so, and regularly crit for 6.5k-7k at level 52. This is with all the debuffs/stacks going of course, but it's easy to keep those going until you have aggro. It should be obvious when to use slam, and when to use Crescendo.
This rotation regularly pulls boss aggro if I'm standing too close while doing my rotation. It might not get the tip-top on the DPS charts but you will probably be #2 in almost every catagory. If your team isn't quite up to snuff, you have a good chance to top every one of the charts including healing if you're using a Cleric henchman (which I hope you are.)
There. Myth busted.
(Of course, I haven't done level 60 content. This has worked up until level 52 IMMENSELY well and I really don't see that changing.)
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
I'm about to make another thread touching on this issue, but here's how I see it.
The GWF is stupid painful to level from 1-16. It then gets a lot easier with a Cleric companion. Around level 30-35 you start wondering what you were complaining about. Then at level 50 you start thinking maybe the GWF is OP.
At level 50, running all the way up the destroyer tree with the cap stone and some Sentinel debuffs, I have no issues tanking in Dungeons. The 'tanking' GWF abilities are...amazing.
Currently, I'm running the following abilities:
Passives:
Destroyer
Weapon Master
At-Will:
Weapon Master Strike
Reaping Strike
Encounters:
Come and Get It
Not So Fast
Daring Shout
Dailies:
Slam
Crescendo
Now, these are tanking abilities right? Wrong.
It's a debuff DPS rotation that keeps the add's right where you want them. In the burn pile.
Throw out your Come and Get It in the middle of everything, pop your Not So Fast to keep them slow and manageable, then throw your Daring Shout. If you have Unstoppable up, pop it and throw out three to five weapon master strikes to get your stacks/armor debuff's rolling while Daring Shout is adding it's debuff to the mix, then switch to Weapon Master Strike/Reaping Strike and alternate those until Come and Get It is back up. Your Reaping Strike crits will be obscene. I had a 10k crit at level 48 or so, and regularly crit for 6.5k-7k at level 52. This is with all the debuffs/stacks going of course, but it's easy to keep those going until you have aggro. It should be obvious when to use slam, and when to use Crescendo.
This rotation regularly pulls boss aggro if I'm standing too close while doing my rotation. It might not get the tip-top on the DPS charts but you will probably be #2 in almost every catagory. If your team isn't quite up to snuff, you have a good chance to top every one of the charts including healing if you're using a Cleric henchman (which I hope you are.)
There. Myth busted.
(Of course, I haven't done level 60 content. This has worked up until level 52 IMMENSELY well and I really don't see that changing.)
I think probably some GWF in here already tried your rotation, or at least I did. My rotation at ~50 was also similar, a bit different, Roar - Come and Get It - Weapon Master Strike (Unstoppable Slam whenever they pop-up), I was at top of the chart and felt OP as well, until I grouped with some good TR/CW. They were out dps me like 25-40% no matter what I spammed my skills.
Wait until to get till 60 and queue for Epic Dungeons, it will be the matter of being accepted or kicked from the group (I know they exploit the lead a lot), you might not have a chance to prove what you are capable of because they kick you at the beginning of the instance because you are a GWF. I queued for like 1 hour and got kicked at the first second I entered the dungeon, even my GS is 9k1. I was like wtf... I feel so underestimated :mad:
The problem with GWF is that the rest of your team has the opportunity to completely screw you and make it impossible to do your job. The main issue with that is that it slows down your actual kill time on any group of mobs you care to throw out there. A CW/TR team is good of course, but a CW/GWF team will do it faster. So what if the CW gathers up all the mobs, what's the TR going to do? Whirling Blades?
I'm reserving judgement until I hit level 60, but Roar just seems counter-intuitive since it throws them everywhere. Daring Shout debuff's everything it hits, gives you a ton of determination and brings up Unstoppable almost by itself, and it gives you a ton of flat resistance. Daring Shout and Unstoppable together make you, well, truly unstoppable.
EDIT:
If you used my rotation, but a 'little different', you aren't using this rotation. Roar doesn't do anything useful except a bit of damage that reaping strike would have done without throwing them everywhere. (And probably does more damage either way, since reaping strike has no cooldown and is only limited by the charge time. The charge time on Reaping Strike actually helps you build determination faster.
I think GWF gets a bad rap because so many people are trying to rig it for single target damage, which doesn't work to the strengths of the GWF. The Destroyer tree gives you 25% bonus damage on Reaping Srike when hitting one target. This is probably the best single target ability you have in your powers tree. It's a beast single target, or AoE. If teams aren't taking you, I think you can safely blame other GWF that have literally no idea what they're supposed to be doing with it.
The sheer amount of other GWF I've seen using Sure Strike tells me that there are a lot of people doing it wrong.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
I ran this spec for a bit. Its fun but the higher dungeon mobs are perma agro'd to clerics. All this does is just slightly delay the agro. In return, however, you will lose DPS by not equipping your Encounters that do damage and just be less useful. You are better off going straight AOE DPS and contributing by killing ads. However, the other classes do it better, sadly.
Your encounters do less average damage over time than reaping strike by itself. If you are using Encounter damage abilities I submit that you're part of the problem. The added damage from the control, debuff, and slows make a big, big difference. Lets look at it, shall we?
Daring Shout - Debuffs enemy resistance, gives Determination per target hit, increases your flat damage resistance per target hit.
Come and Get It - Keeps mobs within range of reaping strike, gives a 30% (?) damage buff to your next attack. (If I already have aggro, Daring Shout - CaGI - Not So Fast = 2k+ on a crit per target. This is not with end-game armor/weapons. This is with greens and some blues.)
The only 'weak' spot is Not So Fast, which could be traded out but frankly the AoE damage and the slow are too good for me to pass up. The At-Wills are my main damage dealers, as with the massive amount of debuff's they do utterly insane AoE damage. If the Cleric has perma aggro, this will keep them away from the Cleric forever, and then they're dead.
Reaping Strike is better than any Encounter damage dealer in the GWF's playbook bar none. IBS is a possible exception, and I might very well trade out Not So Fast for IBS in heavy single-target boss fights just for the extra AoE mark.
Lets also not forget that the slow from Not So Fast is even better when the slow from Slam is backing it up. Mobs will move at a crawl, and if your cleric gets caught by them it's because your cleric fell asleep or had to go to the bathroom.
GWF is not just an AoE damage dealer. They're an exceptionally strong debuff and control class that also happens to pump out beastly AoE damage.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
I'm about to make another thread touching on this issue, but here's how I see it.
The GWF is stupid painful to level from 1-16. It then gets a lot easier with a Cleric companion. Around level 30-35 you start wondering what you were complaining about. Then at level 50 you start thinking maybe the GWF is OP.
At level 50, running all the way up the destroyer tree with the cap stone and some Sentinel debuffs, I have no issues tanking in Dungeons. The 'tanking' GWF abilities are...amazing.
Currently, I'm running the following abilities:
Passives:
Destroyer
Weapon Master
At-Will:
Weapon Master Strike
Reaping Strike
Encounters:
Come and Get It
Not So Fast
Daring Shout
Dailies:
Slam
Crescendo
Now, these are tanking abilities right? Wrong.
It's a debuff DPS rotation that keeps the add's right where you want them. In the burn pile.
Throw out your Come and Get It in the middle of everything, pop your Not So Fast to keep them slow and manageable, then throw your Daring Shout. If you have Unstoppable up, pop it and throw out three to five weapon master strikes to get your stacks/armor debuff's rolling while Daring Shout is adding it's debuff to the mix, then switch to Weapon Master Strike/Reaping Strike and alternate those until Come and Get It is back up. Your Reaping Strike crits will be obscene. I had a 10k crit at level 48 or so, and regularly crit for 6.5k-7k at level 52. This is with all the debuffs/stacks going of course, but it's easy to keep those going until you have aggro. It should be obvious when to use slam, and when to use Crescendo.
This rotation regularly pulls boss aggro if I'm standing too close while doing my rotation. It might not get the tip-top on the DPS charts but you will probably be #2 in almost every catagory. If your team isn't quite up to snuff, you have a good chance to top every one of the charts including healing if you're using a Cleric henchman (which I hope you are.)
There. Myth busted.
(Of course, I haven't done level 60 content. This has worked up until level 52 IMMENSELY well and I really don't see that changing.)
All the build/rotation information is fine. There are a couple viable ways to go with dps output. The heart of the issue has nothing to do with the dps chart at the end of a run though.
In its current state based on the end game design decisions of the dev team, the GWF is all but irrelevant to the content. That is the problem. Whether you have higher dps numbers is not relevant to the GWF's issues. When you get to the higher end of tier 2 you will understand what the higher GS GWF's are talking about if nothing gets changed.
Your encounters do less average damage over time than reaping strike by itself. If you are using Encounter damage abilities I submit that you're part of the problem. The added damage from the control, debuff, and slows make a big, big difference. Lets look at it, shall we?
Daring Shout - Debuffs enemy resistance, gives Determination per target hit, increases your flat damage resistance per target hit.
Come and Get It - Keeps mobs within range of reaping strike, gives a 30% (?) damage buff to your next attack. (If I already have aggro, Daring Shout - CaGI - Not So Fast = 2k+ on a crit per target. This is not with end-game armor/weapons. This is with greens and some blues.)
The only 'weak' spot is Not So Fast, which could be traded out but frankly the AoE damage and the slow are too good for me to pass up. The At-Wills are my main damage dealers, as with the massive amount of debuff's they do utterly insane AoE damage. If the Cleric has perma aggro, this will keep them away from the Cleric forever, and then they're dead.
Reaping Strike is better than any Encounter damage dealer in the GWF's playbook bar none. IBS is a possible exception, and I might very well trade out Not So Fast for IBS in heavy single-target boss fights just for the extra AoE mark.
Lets also not forget that the slow from Not So Fast is even better when the slow from Slam is backing it up. Mobs will move at a crawl, and if your cleric gets caught by them it's because your cleric fell asleep or had to go to the bathroom.
GWF is not just an AoE damage dealer. They're an exceptionally strong debuff and control class that also happens to pump out beastly AoE damage.
Again, good theory crafting on viable strats but the heart of the issue remains. Different gwf builds will excel at different things, problem is none of the builds bring anything to the table compared to other more desirable class choices at end game.
What are the higher level GWF talking about? Are there no add's in top tier dungeons? Are they completely immune to CC? Are they also immune to all debuffs? Are the bosses also immune to all debuffs on top of having CC immunity?
I mean, it just seems logical that if bosses and add's are not immune to these debuffs that they will continue to reap huge benefits. The only thing this setup won't work well on are fast bosses that jump around a lot and have no add's. That prohibits you from taking advantage of all the crit/damage/debuff stacks that you're constantly applying. I've heard T2 bosses barely move and have a ton of add's, so I would love to be told what suddenly changes to make this setup bad at end-game.
EDIT:
Also, I'm not talking about just straight damage here. I'm talking about over all usefulness. This isn't just 'higher DPS' from a person that uses Encounter damage abilities. It's night-and-day difference.
It seems to me that each one of the encounter one-shot-damage abilities are a red herring meant to distract you. None of them, barring IBS, has any utility and are completely outmatched by your starting ability Reaping Strike.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
What are the higher level GWF talking about? Are there no add's in top tier dungeons? Are they completely immune to CC? Are they also immune to all debuffs? Are the bosses also immune to all debuffs on top of having CC immunity?
I mean, it just seems logical that if bosses and add's are not immune to these debuffs that they will continue to reap huge benefits. The only thing this setup won't work well on are fast bosses that jump around a lot and have no add's. That prohibits you from taking advantage of all the crit/damage/debuff stacks that you're constantly applying. I've heard T2 bosses barely move and have a ton of add's, so I would love to be told what suddenly changes to make this setup bad at end-game.
EDIT:
Also, I'm not talking about straight damage here. I'm talking about over all usefulness. This isn't just 'higher DPS' from a person that uses Encounter damage abilities. It's night-and-day difference.
The adds in tier 2 are dealt with whenever possible by being punted off ledges into pools of deathly goodness. A job the GWF is the worst of all applicable classes at. Bosses are dealt with by high single target damage also a job the GWF is the worst at. Also the raw aoe damage is not nearly as important as hard cc for the massive add fest encounters, which wizards are so much better at there is no comparison.
This may not make sense as you are not at end game, but this is the reality as it currently stands. The GWF needs its own important role to be viable. Doing a bit more or even aoe damage with other classes that offer far more other features leave the end game GWF in the worst spot of all classes.
@spacejew: Roar also builds your determination, not just dmg burst. "Reaping strike" also builds your determination but cast time is the problem, I rather use Weapon Master Strike + Staying Power paragon than waste time on casting a skill that can be easy interrupted. But yes, everyone has different tastes.
Side question: Anyone know that the "Run speed bonus" stat info describes correctly? I notice that the stat is not changed after I equipped "Bravery" feature (+10% deflect/run speed) but I can see that the movement is faster. "Movement" & "Run speed bonus" are not changed at all with or without Bravery, even its effect is noticeable. I compare these stats of mine to others and see that mine are higher than them a lot, my movement is 570 and run speed bonus is +4.5%, but when I removed Bravery, I move really slow (stats stay the same). Equipped Bravery I can run more or less equal to Cleric/TR/CW - not faster. (my GWF is hafling +3% speed bonus). Do other classes also have their bonus speed skill or just GWF speed is slow, I wonder?
Ah, so it's a matter of add's not mattering because there's a way to just instagib them.
That makes perfect sense. I'm not a total idiot after all ^_^
I can see that making one hell of a big difference when your class role is trumped by CW instagibbing all the add's.
In that instance, Come and Get It combined with Roar would probably be a better setup when you can knock them off. The relatively small radius and limited number of add's that CaGI can pull in make it pretty obvious what you're trying to say.
As for Roar building determination, that's super, but I'll take a debuff combined with survivability. I think you hit it on the head with it's a choice.
EDIT: It did just occur to me that this would be a good replacement for Not So Fast, as you can pop Roar, Come and Get It, and Daring Shout to probably build one hell of a lot of determination super fast. Probably works great, just a little different. Have to try that out.
As for Reaping Strike being interrupted, I fail to see how that matters when your class skill makes you immune to interrupt and your determination is back to full in perhaps two seconds. Crowd control stopped controlling me a long, long time ago. (Basically as soon as I got Daring Shout) Even if you find yourself in a red circle without any stamina and without any determination, if you hold reaping strike congrats you're now able to pop Daring Shout and go back to unstoppable again.
As a matter of fact, I barely even notice red circles anymore. They don't really do anything to the GWF and can basically be ignored if you're doing it right. That might change in epic dungeons, but unstoppable + daring shout is absurd damage reduction while still adding to your damage through debuff.
EDIT:
It's not the GWF that's the problem with end content, it sounds like it's the instances themselves being badly designed that's the problem. If you rely on add's to make boss fights hard, which Cryptic clearly did, than don't make it possible for the control class to kill all of them by kicking them off a ledge. Basic, basic stuff here that was done wrong.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
@spacejew: Roar also builds your determination, not just dmg burst. "Reaping strike" also builds your determination but cast time is the problem, I rather use Weapon Master Strike + Staying Power paragon than waste time on casting a skill that can be easy interrupted. But yes, everyone has different tastes.
Side question: Anyone know that the "Run speed bonus" stat info describes correctly? I notice that the stat is not changed after I equipped "Bravery" feature (+10% deflect/run speed) but I can see that the movement is faster. "Movement" & "Run speed bonus" are not changed at all with or without Bravery, even its effect is noticeable. I compare these stats of mine to others and see that mine are higher than them a lot, my movement is 570 and run speed bonus is +4.5%, but when I removed Bravery, I move really slow (stats stay the same). Equipped Bravery I can run more or less equal to Cleric/TR/CW - not faster. (my GWF is hafling +3% speed bonus). Do other classes also have their bonus speed skill or just GWF speed is slow, I wonder?
To answer your specific question there are many, many feat and class ability mods that simply do not show up on the character sheet despite them working. I'm not sure if this is Cryptic trying to hide the numbers, or simply that they didn't think of it, but I'm not convinced that any of the feat skills are actually 'broken' or just not showing up. There are forum topics on that very issue for specific skills, but I have tested zero of them so I suggest looking into those threads for specifics.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
It's not the GWF that's the problem with end content, it sounds like it's the instances themselves being badly designed that's the problem. If you rely on add's to make boss fights hard, which Cryptic clearly did, than don't make it possible for the control class to kill all of them by kicking them off a ledge. Basic, basic stuff here that was done wrong.
Basically this. Ive been at 9K~ gear score for almost a week. Cant find dungeons. Someone quits or I get kicked. Ive stopped played and havent now for a few days as there is no point. Ive tried leveling another class but I dont like them as much as the GWF. Its painful, but the GFW just isnt as efficient as the other classes.
0
zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
Yes buff the GWF, The need to have a very defined ROLE in the dungeon.
Don't say that the GWF isn't as efficient. It would be more efficient if you couldn't just instagib them flat out with a CW.
If you removed the cap on mobs that are controlled with Come and Get It it would go a long way to fix that issue. Still wouldn't be as great as a CW's black hole (Massive AoE on that one!) but it would certainly help. Either that, or remove the ability to just kick them off a ledge. I don't generally approve of that method anyway since you lose out on money and loot, but honestly the only loot that matters is what the boss drops.
Plus, it's stupid to have an 'exploit' that lets you kill groups of mobs in one shot. Obviously it's not really an exploit, but it moves dangerously close to one if an entire class in a game with only five classes is moot in instances with cliffs. (I do not want to start a debate about that here. Lets call it 'an unintended consequence of trying to make certain fights interesting when combined with d-bag PUG groups and power gamers'.)
EDIT:
Yes buff the GWF, The need to have a very defined ROLE in the dungeon.
They have a very well defined role. It's just a role that's not required in end-game dungeons it would seem. Considering that GF's are in the same boat unless they *ahem* are doing a certain something to make the fight considerably shorter I'd say it's a problem. If you don't need either of the two tanking classes in your end game fights, you've done something very very wrong at a very basic level. What do you do to fix three classes being the only viable end game classes when it's the mechanics of your dungeons that cause it. It's not a class problem, it's a dungeon problem.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
reaping strike is the worst at will of the game. the full 3 hit combo from wicked strike deal more damage in less time than it takes to charge reaping. sure strike can be executed 1.5x times (4 hit combo) in the time it takes to charge RS. both get buffs and defuffs faster and wont lose you 3.5(reaping strike chage time) seconds worth of dps if you are cc'ed.
on a note, reaping strike is only usefull at pve at no other circumstances like fighting ogres and such, when you can run from their big hits and charge yours while they come at you.
I have posted this in other topics, but I think that you need to look at how GWF is played, and buff them from there.
GWF has encounters, but due to large/timely animations, they are better used after Unstoppable has happened.
Whether you are running Flourish/IBS/Roar or Daring Shout/Come and Get It/IBS, these animations take too long.
So, I think that our Encounters should stay the same damage and their animations reduced so that we can stay maneuverable if necessary.
Most of the fight we are in Unstoppable, that's how GWF is played. Uns. AoE cleaving, Uns. Sure Strike on boss, etc. This is what we do the majority of the time and where we do the majority of our damage.
I would suggest increasing Sure Strikes damage by 250-300%, and increasing WMS by 150-200%.
Neither of these changes makes you better than a TR at doing singular, burst damage, or better then a CW by controller the battlefield and damaging from range. It does make you do enough damage in your most common form (Unstoppable At-Will spam) to warrant a position in the group. I would personally rather see a buff on the high end because it's easier to tone it down a bit than for it to be "an improvement" but not quite good enough.
With these changes you won't need to re-balance PvP (lol) because the burst abilities haven't had a damage increase.
Oh, so Reaping Strike is only good in PvE? Funny, since the title of the thread specifies PvE.
Reaping Strike is baller if you combine it with debuffs. If you're just charging it and letting it fly without any prep work, you are of course very obviously doing it wrong.
Wicked Strikes is a mid-game carry power before you get WMS, and after that falls off sharply and becomes completely moot in my book.
Sure Strike is just...so incredibly bad. You'll build stacks of Weapon Master faster, no stacks of destoyer, and apply your armor debuff to one target instead of several. Also, even if you factor in using Weapon Master Strike to apply your debuffs first wicked strike still under performs in most fights. Only against highly mobile, high add content fights would I even consider having Wicked Strike on my bar. Oh, but I forgot, WMS does more damage than Wicked Strikes too and in an AoE. There is no reason to use WS, ever, after you get WMS. Seriously.
Oh well. Continue to languish in mediocrity, and continue to cry about how subpar a class is when you're doing it utterly wrong.
EDIT:
Chuch, your suggestions would simply turn the GWF into a rogue on steroids. So your suggestion is to make the TR class completely pointless?
2nd EDIT:
Sorry, you wanted to render the rogue pointless and the CW pointless. My bad.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Oh, so Reaping Strike is only good in PvE? Funny, since the title of the thread specifies PvE.
Reaping Strike is baller if you combine it with debuffs. If you're just charging it and letting it fly without any prep work, you are of course very obviously doing it wrong.
Wicked Strikes is a mid-game carry power before you get WMS, and after that falls off sharply and becomes completely moot in my book.
Sure Strike is just...so incredibly bad. You'll build stacks of Weapon Master faster, no stacks of destoyer, and apply your armor debuff to one target instead of several. Also, even if you factor in using Weapon Master Strike to apply your debuffs first wicked strike still under performs in most fights. Only against highly mobile, high add content fights would I even consider having Wicked Strike on my bar. Oh, but I forgot, WMS does more damage than Wicked Strikes too and in an AoE. There is no reason to use WS, ever, after you get WMS. Seriously.
Oh well. Continue to languish in mediocrity, and continue to cry about how subpar a class is when you're doing it utterly wrong.
EDIT:
Chuch, your suggestions would simply turn the GWF into a rogue on steroids. So your suggestion is to make the TR class completely pointless?
2nd EDIT:
Sorry, you wanted to render the rogue pointless and the CW pointless. My bad.
"on a note, reaping strike is only usefull at pve at no other circumstances like fighting ogres and such, when you can run from their big hits and charge yours while they come at you." read again.
never i said wicked strike or sure strike are awesome i said, instead, they are better than reaping strike. which btw cant keep weapon master stacks nor student of the sword's
what I wonder here is why do you consider RS sucking such an absurd when its pretty much a consensus, or the GWF as a whole.
i can assume mostly 2 things, either you would rather the class keep sucking or you have some ridiculous notion that no one will notice and keep getting GWF for groups if we pretend the class is awesome.
on a note, I believe (could be wrong) armor pen, defense debufs, or damage reduction debuffs are irrelevant at pve because so far i have not noticed much difference on the dmg done to a fully debuffed target to one which isn't. maybe mobs are pure health? maybe they have such little damage reduction that the debuffs effects are negligible?
Ah, so it's a matter of add's not mattering because there's a way to just instagib them.
That makes perfect sense. I'm not a total idiot after all ^_^
I can see that making one hell of a big difference when your class role is trumped by CW instagibbing all the add's.
In that instance, Come and Get It combined with Roar would probably be a better setup when you can knock them off. The relatively small radius and limited number of add's that CaGI can pull in make it pretty obvious what you're trying to say.
As for Roar building determination, that's super, but I'll take a debuff combined with survivability. I think you hit it on the head with it's a choice.
EDIT: It did just occur to me that this would be a good replacement for Not So Fast, as you can pop Roar, Come and Get It, and Daring Shout to probably build one hell of a lot of determination super fast. Probably works great, just a little different. Have to try that out.
As for Reaping Strike being interrupted, I fail to see how that matters when your class skill makes you immune to interrupt and your determination is back to full in perhaps two seconds. Crowd control stopped controlling me a long, long time ago. (Basically as soon as I got Daring Shout) Even if you find yourself in a red circle without any stamina and without any determination, if you hold reaping strike congrats you're now able to pop Daring Shout and go back to unstoppable again.
As a matter of fact, I barely even notice red circles anymore. They don't really do anything to the GWF and can basically be ignored if you're doing it right. That might change in epic dungeons, but unstoppable + daring shout is absurd damage reduction while still adding to your damage through debuff.
EDIT:
It's not the GWF that's the problem with end content, it sounds like it's the instances themselves being badly designed that's the problem. If you rely on add's to make boss fights hard, which Cryptic clearly did, than don't make it possible for the control class to kill all of them by kicking them off a ledge. Basic, basic stuff here that was done wrong.
You nailed the issue yes. The instagib employed by the wizard renders GWF second class citizens.
Clerics do their required job the best of the classes.
Wizards deal with trash far better then the other classes.
Rogues deal with mr nasty important monster better then the other classes.
I've suggested 2 instant increases to the viability in another thread (well 3 but one isn't realistic):
1. The knock back on roar needs to be a major knock back. Then we can come and get it to the edge of the cliff and roar them off. Currently roar doesn't push them back far enough for this to be viable.
2. A daily power that instagibs trash if you hit over x amount with it.
3. Such a significant boost in damage that you can clear trash with close to the same efficiency as wizards punting them off the edge. Or a near as good hard cc as the wizard has at the very minimum.
The debate about good dungeon design or not is a whole other thread, but currently the end game design makes the fighter classes second rate at best.
You nailed the issue yes. The instagib employed by the wizard renders GWF second class citizens.
Clerics do their required job the best of the classes.
Wizards deal with trash far better then the other classes.
Rogues deal with mr nasty important monster better then the other classes.
I've suggested 2 instant increases to the viability in another thread (well 3 but one isn't realistic):
1. The knock back on roar needs to be a major knock back. Then we can come and get it to the edge of the cliff and roar them off. Currently roar doesn't push them back far enough for this to be viable.
2. A daily power that instagibs trash if you hit over x amount with it.
3. Such a significant boost in damage that you can clear trash with close to the same efficiency as wizards punting them off the edge. Or a near as good hard cc as the wizard has at the very minimum.
The debate about good dungeon design or not is a whole other thread, but currently the end game design makes the fighter classes second rate at best.
I honestly think the best way to get a GWF into a 5-man now is probably as the initiator/tank slot. Going with the holy trinity concept, taking one of your 3 DPS spots and giving it to a GWF is inefficient, but we can do the GF role in almost every situation (well, except that we have no taunt and can't really keep threat) but I haven't really seen that as a problem. Although, admittedly, I am talking T1 and limited T2 experience at this point.
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Chuch, your suggestions would simply turn the GWF into a rogue on steroids. So your suggestion is to make the TR class completely pointless?
Not really. Right now if I go to a Champion/Veteran enemy and pop Unstoppable and do Sure Strike, after a full Unstoppable cycle it'll have maybe 10%, but more likely 5% of its HP gone. If you are in a group of mobs spamming WMS you are doing ~800-1300 a pop which could be higher based on crits and def. down. Still, it's not much. It doesn't really kill the mobs you are fighting, it is sort of like a fly landing on them. All you do as a GWF is wait for a CW or a TR to kill what you are fighting because you are basically useless. Increasing AoE damage x2 and single target damage x3 on auto attacks will not kill any other class or role and anyone who understands these other two classes knows that a GWF being stronger only helps them because then there is the next quote.
I honestly think the best way to get a GWF into a 5-man now is probably as the initiator/tank slot. Going with the holy trinity concept, taking one of your 3 DPS spots and giving it to a GWF is inefficient, but we can do the GF role in almost every situation (well, except that we have no taunt and can't really keep threat) but I haven't really seen that as a problem. Although, admittedly, I am talking T1 and limited T2 experience at this point.
Absolutely. The only thing I really do in dungeons is pull and group enemies together so that we can fight, avoid, etc. I run the dungeon and people follow. During boss fights, the TR and I are together on the boss to kill it as fast as possible. This is a fun way to play but it would be more fun if I wasn't essentially being carried in every instance because my class is so weak.
Bottom line is that a CW does AoE better and a TR does single target better. We can't tank and we are technically a Striker. If we are an "AoE" class we should be putting up 20-25% more total DPS than a TR at the end of a dungeon and we are not even close to that. (Many TR's can double GWF damage, depending on instance)
As a high end T2 GWF on Mindflayer, I believe that we do need:
1. a slight increase in all of our abilities damage, mainly Weapon Master Strike, Not So Fast, Sure Strike.
2. There needs to be some increase on our abilities cast animation, our mobility compared to other classes is far lacking. You pretty much need to be at a standstill in order to do your abilities. Weapon Master Strike Mainly and Sure Strike.
3. Sprint is a terrible and I MEAN TERRIBLE, ability. In my opinion, they need to change this to the rest of the classes by making it a short leap or a charge and the same recharging time as of other classes, that can also dodge much like Trickster Rogue and Control Wizard.
Sadly, given the above expectations, they should have gone with the Rageblood Charging barbarian (striker), or the Slayer from 4e Essentials (Striker), instead of the GWF (defender w/ a big weapon, but still a defender).
the only problem i have with the GWF is the feat destroyers purpose.
its wording made me think oh sweet i can stop putting myself in to get hit now.
but then when putting this feat to use i was sadly disappointing.
IMO this is the only thing i can see truly needing a buff atm.
and before people go oh 10% extra damage in unstoppable to my encounters i dont care it was the change of play style i was after with it
the only problem i have with the GWF is the feat destroyers purpose.
its wording made me think oh sweet i can stop putting myself in to get hit now.
but then when putting this feat to use i was sadly disappointing.
IMO this is the only thing i can see truly needing a buff atm.
and before people go oh 10% extra damage in unstoppable to my encounters i dont care it was the change of play style i was after with it
Hit end game if nothing has been changed and come back and post. And if you are at tier 2 and up end game then there are other classes that do it better.
I honestly think the best way to get a GWF into a 5-man now is probably as the initiator/tank slot. Going with the holy trinity concept, taking one of your 3 DPS spots and giving it to a GWF is inefficient, but we can do the GF role in almost every situation (well, except that we have no taunt and can't really keep threat) but I haven't really seen that as a problem. Although, admittedly, I am talking T1 and limited T2 experience at this point.
Also the only way we can do the gf job is in a cleric circle. Without the cleric circle we get melted.
Comments
True. I get that all the time, unless I out-gear TR/CW, I can be top of the chart in dungeon (slam and weapon master strike all the time with a bunch of mobs). ~ gear, well, that's another story.
In PvP, at-will is a joke, can't even drop 1/5 of a CW hp with Unstoppable on, mostly depends on my encounters and daily - if they are on cd, I just run around or sprint out of the battle - no point to stand and try to hit them at-will. If I can't kill them in one skill rotation with critical hits, I'm done for.
The GWF is stupid painful to level from 1-16. It then gets a lot easier with a Cleric companion. Around level 30-35 you start wondering what you were complaining about. Then at level 50 you start thinking maybe the GWF is OP.
At level 50, running all the way up the destroyer tree with the cap stone and some Sentinel debuffs, I have no issues tanking in Dungeons. The 'tanking' GWF abilities are...amazing.
Currently, I'm running the following abilities:
Passives:
Destroyer
Weapon Master
At-Will:
Weapon Master Strike
Reaping Strike
Encounters:
Come and Get It
Not So Fast
Daring Shout
Dailies:
Slam
Crescendo
Now, these are tanking abilities right? Wrong.
It's a debuff DPS rotation that keeps the add's right where you want them. In the burn pile.
Throw out your Come and Get It in the middle of everything, pop your Not So Fast to keep them slow and manageable, then throw your Daring Shout. If you have Unstoppable up, pop it and throw out three to five weapon master strikes to get your stacks/armor debuff's rolling while Daring Shout is adding it's debuff to the mix, then switch to Weapon Master Strike/Reaping Strike and alternate those until Come and Get It is back up. Your Reaping Strike crits will be obscene. I had a 10k crit at level 48 or so, and regularly crit for 6.5k-7k at level 52. This is with all the debuffs/stacks going of course, but it's easy to keep those going until you have aggro. It should be obvious when to use slam, and when to use Crescendo.
This rotation regularly pulls boss aggro if I'm standing too close while doing my rotation. It might not get the tip-top on the DPS charts but you will probably be #2 in almost every catagory. If your team isn't quite up to snuff, you have a good chance to top every one of the charts including healing if you're using a Cleric henchman (which I hope you are.)
There. Myth busted.
(Of course, I haven't done level 60 content. This has worked up until level 52 IMMENSELY well and I really don't see that changing.)
I think probably some GWF in here already tried your rotation, or at least I did. My rotation at ~50 was also similar, a bit different, Roar - Come and Get It - Weapon Master Strike (Unstoppable Slam whenever they pop-up), I was at top of the chart and felt OP as well, until I grouped with some good TR/CW. They were out dps me like 25-40% no matter what I spammed my skills.
Wait until to get till 60 and queue for Epic Dungeons, it will be the matter of being accepted or kicked from the group (I know they exploit the lead a lot), you might not have a chance to prove what you are capable of because they kick you at the beginning of the instance because you are a GWF. I queued for like 1 hour and got kicked at the first second I entered the dungeon, even my GS is 9k1. I was like wtf... I feel so underestimated :mad:
I'm reserving judgement until I hit level 60, but Roar just seems counter-intuitive since it throws them everywhere. Daring Shout debuff's everything it hits, gives you a ton of determination and brings up Unstoppable almost by itself, and it gives you a ton of flat resistance. Daring Shout and Unstoppable together make you, well, truly unstoppable.
EDIT:
If you used my rotation, but a 'little different', you aren't using this rotation. Roar doesn't do anything useful except a bit of damage that reaping strike would have done without throwing them everywhere. (And probably does more damage either way, since reaping strike has no cooldown and is only limited by the charge time. The charge time on Reaping Strike actually helps you build determination faster.
I think GWF gets a bad rap because so many people are trying to rig it for single target damage, which doesn't work to the strengths of the GWF. The Destroyer tree gives you 25% bonus damage on Reaping Srike when hitting one target. This is probably the best single target ability you have in your powers tree. It's a beast single target, or AoE. If teams aren't taking you, I think you can safely blame other GWF that have literally no idea what they're supposed to be doing with it.
The sheer amount of other GWF I've seen using Sure Strike tells me that there are a lot of people doing it wrong.
Daring Shout - Debuffs enemy resistance, gives Determination per target hit, increases your flat damage resistance per target hit.
Come and Get It - Keeps mobs within range of reaping strike, gives a 30% (?) damage buff to your next attack. (If I already have aggro, Daring Shout - CaGI - Not So Fast = 2k+ on a crit per target. This is not with end-game armor/weapons. This is with greens and some blues.)
The only 'weak' spot is Not So Fast, which could be traded out but frankly the AoE damage and the slow are too good for me to pass up. The At-Wills are my main damage dealers, as with the massive amount of debuff's they do utterly insane AoE damage. If the Cleric has perma aggro, this will keep them away from the Cleric forever, and then they're dead.
Reaping Strike is better than any Encounter damage dealer in the GWF's playbook bar none. IBS is a possible exception, and I might very well trade out Not So Fast for IBS in heavy single-target boss fights just for the extra AoE mark.
Lets also not forget that the slow from Not So Fast is even better when the slow from Slam is backing it up. Mobs will move at a crawl, and if your cleric gets caught by them it's because your cleric fell asleep or had to go to the bathroom.
GWF is not just an AoE damage dealer. They're an exceptionally strong debuff and control class that also happens to pump out beastly AoE damage.
All the build/rotation information is fine. There are a couple viable ways to go with dps output. The heart of the issue has nothing to do with the dps chart at the end of a run though.
In its current state based on the end game design decisions of the dev team, the GWF is all but irrelevant to the content. That is the problem. Whether you have higher dps numbers is not relevant to the GWF's issues. When you get to the higher end of tier 2 you will understand what the higher GS GWF's are talking about if nothing gets changed.
Extinction - GWF
Again, good theory crafting on viable strats but the heart of the issue remains. Different gwf builds will excel at different things, problem is none of the builds bring anything to the table compared to other more desirable class choices at end game.
Extinction - GWF
I mean, it just seems logical that if bosses and add's are not immune to these debuffs that they will continue to reap huge benefits. The only thing this setup won't work well on are fast bosses that jump around a lot and have no add's. That prohibits you from taking advantage of all the crit/damage/debuff stacks that you're constantly applying. I've heard T2 bosses barely move and have a ton of add's, so I would love to be told what suddenly changes to make this setup bad at end-game.
EDIT:
Also, I'm not talking about just straight damage here. I'm talking about over all usefulness. This isn't just 'higher DPS' from a person that uses Encounter damage abilities. It's night-and-day difference.
It seems to me that each one of the encounter one-shot-damage abilities are a red herring meant to distract you. None of them, barring IBS, has any utility and are completely outmatched by your starting ability Reaping Strike.
The adds in tier 2 are dealt with whenever possible by being punted off ledges into pools of deathly goodness. A job the GWF is the worst of all applicable classes at. Bosses are dealt with by high single target damage also a job the GWF is the worst at. Also the raw aoe damage is not nearly as important as hard cc for the massive add fest encounters, which wizards are so much better at there is no comparison.
This may not make sense as you are not at end game, but this is the reality as it currently stands. The GWF needs its own important role to be viable. Doing a bit more or even aoe damage with other classes that offer far more other features leave the end game GWF in the worst spot of all classes.
Extinction - GWF
Side question: Anyone know that the "Run speed bonus" stat info describes correctly? I notice that the stat is not changed after I equipped "Bravery" feature (+10% deflect/run speed) but I can see that the movement is faster. "Movement" & "Run speed bonus" are not changed at all with or without Bravery, even its effect is noticeable. I compare these stats of mine to others and see that mine are higher than them a lot, my movement is 570 and run speed bonus is +4.5%, but when I removed Bravery, I move really slow (stats stay the same). Equipped Bravery I can run more or less equal to Cleric/TR/CW - not faster. (my GWF is hafling +3% speed bonus). Do other classes also have their bonus speed skill or just GWF speed is slow, I wonder?
That makes perfect sense. I'm not a total idiot after all ^_^
I can see that making one hell of a big difference when your class role is trumped by CW instagibbing all the add's.
In that instance, Come and Get It combined with Roar would probably be a better setup when you can knock them off. The relatively small radius and limited number of add's that CaGI can pull in make it pretty obvious what you're trying to say.
As for Roar building determination, that's super, but I'll take a debuff combined with survivability. I think you hit it on the head with it's a choice.
EDIT: It did just occur to me that this would be a good replacement for Not So Fast, as you can pop Roar, Come and Get It, and Daring Shout to probably build one hell of a lot of determination super fast. Probably works great, just a little different. Have to try that out.
As for Reaping Strike being interrupted, I fail to see how that matters when your class skill makes you immune to interrupt and your determination is back to full in perhaps two seconds. Crowd control stopped controlling me a long, long time ago. (Basically as soon as I got Daring Shout) Even if you find yourself in a red circle without any stamina and without any determination, if you hold reaping strike congrats you're now able to pop Daring Shout and go back to unstoppable again.
As a matter of fact, I barely even notice red circles anymore. They don't really do anything to the GWF and can basically be ignored if you're doing it right. That might change in epic dungeons, but unstoppable + daring shout is absurd damage reduction while still adding to your damage through debuff.
EDIT:
It's not the GWF that's the problem with end content, it sounds like it's the instances themselves being badly designed that's the problem. If you rely on add's to make boss fights hard, which Cryptic clearly did, than don't make it possible for the control class to kill all of them by kicking them off a ledge. Basic, basic stuff here that was done wrong.
To answer your specific question there are many, many feat and class ability mods that simply do not show up on the character sheet despite them working. I'm not sure if this is Cryptic trying to hide the numbers, or simply that they didn't think of it, but I'm not convinced that any of the feat skills are actually 'broken' or just not showing up. There are forum topics on that very issue for specific skills, but I have tested zero of them so I suggest looking into those threads for specifics.
Basically this. Ive been at 9K~ gear score for almost a week. Cant find dungeons. Someone quits or I get kicked. Ive stopped played and havent now for a few days as there is no point. Ive tried leveling another class but I dont like them as much as the GWF. Its painful, but the GFW just isnt as efficient as the other classes.
If you removed the cap on mobs that are controlled with Come and Get It it would go a long way to fix that issue. Still wouldn't be as great as a CW's black hole (Massive AoE on that one!) but it would certainly help. Either that, or remove the ability to just kick them off a ledge. I don't generally approve of that method anyway since you lose out on money and loot, but honestly the only loot that matters is what the boss drops.
Plus, it's stupid to have an 'exploit' that lets you kill groups of mobs in one shot. Obviously it's not really an exploit, but it moves dangerously close to one if an entire class in a game with only five classes is moot in instances with cliffs. (I do not want to start a debate about that here. Lets call it 'an unintended consequence of trying to make certain fights interesting when combined with d-bag PUG groups and power gamers'.)
EDIT:
They have a very well defined role. It's just a role that's not required in end-game dungeons it would seem. Considering that GF's are in the same boat unless they *ahem* are doing a certain something to make the fight considerably shorter I'd say it's a problem. If you don't need either of the two tanking classes in your end game fights, you've done something very very wrong at a very basic level. What do you do to fix three classes being the only viable end game classes when it's the mechanics of your dungeons that cause it. It's not a class problem, it's a dungeon problem.
on a note, reaping strike is only usefull at pve at no other circumstances like fighting ogres and such, when you can run from their big hits and charge yours while they come at you.
Hedas 60 GWF.
Hrod 60 GF.
Alain Loreweaver 60 CW.
Dragon.
I have posted this in other topics, but I think that you need to look at how GWF is played, and buff them from there.
GWF has encounters, but due to large/timely animations, they are better used after Unstoppable has happened.
Whether you are running Flourish/IBS/Roar or Daring Shout/Come and Get It/IBS, these animations take too long.
So, I think that our Encounters should stay the same damage and their animations reduced so that we can stay maneuverable if necessary.
Most of the fight we are in Unstoppable, that's how GWF is played. Uns. AoE cleaving, Uns. Sure Strike on boss, etc. This is what we do the majority of the time and where we do the majority of our damage.
I would suggest increasing Sure Strikes damage by 250-300%, and increasing WMS by 150-200%.
Neither of these changes makes you better than a TR at doing singular, burst damage, or better then a CW by controller the battlefield and damaging from range. It does make you do enough damage in your most common form (Unstoppable At-Will spam) to warrant a position in the group. I would personally rather see a buff on the high end because it's easier to tone it down a bit than for it to be "an improvement" but not quite good enough.
With these changes you won't need to re-balance PvP (lol) because the burst abilities haven't had a damage increase.
Reaping Strike is baller if you combine it with debuffs. If you're just charging it and letting it fly without any prep work, you are of course very obviously doing it wrong.
Wicked Strikes is a mid-game carry power before you get WMS, and after that falls off sharply and becomes completely moot in my book.
Sure Strike is just...so incredibly bad. You'll build stacks of Weapon Master faster, no stacks of destoyer, and apply your armor debuff to one target instead of several. Also, even if you factor in using Weapon Master Strike to apply your debuffs first wicked strike still under performs in most fights. Only against highly mobile, high add content fights would I even consider having Wicked Strike on my bar. Oh, but I forgot, WMS does more damage than Wicked Strikes too and in an AoE. There is no reason to use WS, ever, after you get WMS. Seriously.
Oh well. Continue to languish in mediocrity, and continue to cry about how subpar a class is when you're doing it utterly wrong.
EDIT:
Chuch, your suggestions would simply turn the GWF into a rogue on steroids. So your suggestion is to make the TR class completely pointless?
2nd EDIT:
Sorry, you wanted to render the rogue pointless and the CW pointless. My bad.
"on a note, reaping strike is only usefull at pve at no other circumstances like fighting ogres and such, when you can run from their big hits and charge yours while they come at you." read again.
never i said wicked strike or sure strike are awesome i said, instead, they are better than reaping strike. which btw cant keep weapon master stacks nor student of the sword's
what I wonder here is why do you consider RS sucking such an absurd when its pretty much a consensus, or the GWF as a whole.
i can assume mostly 2 things, either you would rather the class keep sucking or you have some ridiculous notion that no one will notice and keep getting GWF for groups if we pretend the class is awesome.
on a note, I believe (could be wrong) armor pen, defense debufs, or damage reduction debuffs are irrelevant at pve because so far i have not noticed much difference on the dmg done to a fully debuffed target to one which isn't. maybe mobs are pure health? maybe they have such little damage reduction that the debuffs effects are negligible?
Hedas 60 GWF.
Hrod 60 GF.
Alain Loreweaver 60 CW.
Dragon.
I realize that is not the formula I am just pointing out that the weapon damage is way higher than what we get out of our at-wills.
if you add to that power+str+3rd rank bonus + feats its closer to 25-30%.
Hedas 60 GWF.
Hrod 60 GF.
Alain Loreweaver 60 CW.
Dragon.
You nailed the issue yes. The instagib employed by the wizard renders GWF second class citizens.
Clerics do their required job the best of the classes.
Wizards deal with trash far better then the other classes.
Rogues deal with mr nasty important monster better then the other classes.
I've suggested 2 instant increases to the viability in another thread (well 3 but one isn't realistic):
1. The knock back on roar needs to be a major knock back. Then we can come and get it to the edge of the cliff and roar them off. Currently roar doesn't push them back far enough for this to be viable.
2. A daily power that instagibs trash if you hit over x amount with it.
3. Such a significant boost in damage that you can clear trash with close to the same efficiency as wizards punting them off the edge. Or a near as good hard cc as the wizard has at the very minimum.
The debate about good dungeon design or not is a whole other thread, but currently the end game design makes the fighter classes second rate at best.
Extinction - GWF
I honestly think the best way to get a GWF into a 5-man now is probably as the initiator/tank slot. Going with the holy trinity concept, taking one of your 3 DPS spots and giving it to a GWF is inefficient, but we can do the GF role in almost every situation (well, except that we have no taunt and can't really keep threat) but I haven't really seen that as a problem. Although, admittedly, I am talking T1 and limited T2 experience at this point.
Guild Leader of MOPP4
MOPP 4′s community was created to cater to those who have served or currently serve in the armed forces around the world as well as friends, family & supporters of the armed forces. We also now proudly support the Wounded Warrior Project. For more details please go here.
Not really. Right now if I go to a Champion/Veteran enemy and pop Unstoppable and do Sure Strike, after a full Unstoppable cycle it'll have maybe 10%, but more likely 5% of its HP gone. If you are in a group of mobs spamming WMS you are doing ~800-1300 a pop which could be higher based on crits and def. down. Still, it's not much. It doesn't really kill the mobs you are fighting, it is sort of like a fly landing on them. All you do as a GWF is wait for a CW or a TR to kill what you are fighting because you are basically useless. Increasing AoE damage x2 and single target damage x3 on auto attacks will not kill any other class or role and anyone who understands these other two classes knows that a GWF being stronger only helps them because then there is the next quote.
Absolutely. The only thing I really do in dungeons is pull and group enemies together so that we can fight, avoid, etc. I run the dungeon and people follow. During boss fights, the TR and I are together on the boss to kill it as fast as possible. This is a fun way to play but it would be more fun if I wasn't essentially being carried in every instance because my class is so weak.
Bottom line is that a CW does AoE better and a TR does single target better. We can't tank and we are technically a Striker. If we are an "AoE" class we should be putting up 20-25% more total DPS than a TR at the end of a dungeon and we are not even close to that. (Many TR's can double GWF damage, depending on instance)
Sadly, given the above expectations, they should have gone with the Rageblood Charging barbarian (striker), or the Slayer from 4e Essentials (Striker), instead of the GWF (defender w/ a big weapon, but still a defender).
its wording made me think oh sweet i can stop putting myself in to get hit now.
but then when putting this feat to use i was sadly disappointing.
IMO this is the only thing i can see truly needing a buff atm.
and before people go oh 10% extra damage in unstoppable to my encounters i dont care it was the change of play style i was after with it
Hit end game if nothing has been changed and come back and post. And if you are at tier 2 and up end game then there are other classes that do it better.
Extinction - GWF
Also the only way we can do the gf job is in a cleric circle. Without the cleric circle we get melted.
Extinction - GWF