Apparently not as the game is doing fine. A lot of the complaints revolved around the fact that GW2 isn't WoW... yeah from that point of view they were right ;p
That's a pretty common theme too. I've seen those posts across multiple games, some even single player: If you don't make it like WoW, it's going to fail". Losing the WoW fanbase isn't as big a hit to most games as they seem to think it will be.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
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mutharexMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That's a pretty common theme too. I've seen those posts across multiple games, some even single player: If you don't make it like WoW, it's going to fail". Losing the WoW fanbase isn't as big a hit to most games as they seem to think it will be.
Losing the wowkiddies (that aren't the same thing as the wow fanbase) is the best thing that can happen to a MMO...
Actually, no. NOT attracting wowkiddies is the best thing that can happen to a MMO, once they arrive, they are worse than the kiss of death
If a game is similar to WoW is a wowclone. If it's different, "why it's not liek wow???"
Losing the wowkiddies (that aren't the same thing as the wow fanbase) is the best thing that can happen to a MMO...
Actually, no. NOT attracting wowkiddies is the best thing that can happen to a MMO, once they arrive, they are worse than the kiss of death
If a game is similar to WoW is a wowclone. If it's different, "why it's not liek wow???"
The part of the WoW fanbase that's not actively bashing these other games probably feel the same way as the rest of a particular game's community: Why don't you guys just go back to WoW and be happy there then"?
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
If a game is similar to WoW is a wowclone. If it's different, "why it's not liek wow???"
You already get that here though. People are so "sure" you need a trinity here, when there are really four roles, and as long as you play to strengths, you can do pretty much everything. Sure, healers and tanks make things a bit more similar, but all you have to do is look at aggro, and know it's not the same as previous mmos. Instead people say it's broken, refuse to change their ways, or even attempt to try a new play-style.
It's funny how many people go on about how they want something "new" but when a game like this, Tera, FFXIV, DDO or Secret World come along, they complain it's too different. They say they are sick of tab targetting and hotbars, and then they say they love GW2, which is the exact same thing.
I really wish more MMO's would uses TOR's pay model.
I can honestly say, that is the first time i've ever heard someone say that, and i bought the collectors edition.
Rift, meh, played it for months when it came out, got horribly bored, felt like a different WoW, but with a lot less polish. Liked aspects of it, but no way is it ever going to pull players from other games, as anything other than tourists.
So what? Neverwinter is so much better than Rift. I didn't cancel my $15/month with Rift cause of the fee, I cancelled it cause it's boring.
Random rift events are a nuisance if the zone isn't populated or no one wants to help. They get in the way of my questing areas, and many of them can only be soloed up until the final "elite" boss. Once the elite boss spawns, and I can't solo it or find others to help me kill it, I gotta wait several minutes for it to despawn before I can actually progress! Do you know how annoying that is?
The game is also very similar to WoW's tab-targetting system. The multi-class system ain't anything special either because you only gain a small amount of the 2nd and 3rd class you combine with. Some will think you have tons of freedom, but it's not true. The first time I made a character, I just picked what I thought was cool (Warrior + Beast Master and something else) and it blowed. I read a guide on the top builds and unless you spec and chose the right class combinations, you won't be able to play to your full potential.
Anyways I could keep going. But all I have to say is that I don't care about Rift anymore. Instead of trying to be a weak WoW clone, they should of tried to be their own game.
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jnaathraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Raiders are a minority and always have been. They make up a fraction of the overall game population in other MMOs.
Scout Tragold - "I haven't lived this long by being brave... it's just another word for stupid."
Would've thought most people have tried Rift by now and seen it brings absolutely NOTHING new to the table. Same dated WOW mechanics with some half assed WAR public quests.
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bpphantomMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
meh have no desire to play RIFT, I am sick to death of being a god, ascended, Deava or WTF ever I want to be an adventurer and an explorer. Neverwinter lest me be at least one of those things. Quite frankly RIFT bored the living monkey <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me, it's the game that could have been.
I'll just preface by saying I believe that a few people who have already commented are right about the OP and him just flat out not liking Neverwinter, so he is wishing that their fan-base move elsewhere (in Rift, a game he might have heard was cool, who knows), definitely a troll post. Now, if you don’t want to read my treatise on MMO’s, then by all means ignore my lengthy post that follows…
Moving past all that and putting my two cents in; I used to play Rift myself, and played for quite a bit. It was actually the first game since leaving WoW years ago that held my interest. I thought Rift to be quite fun, and pretty original with some of its game mechanics and content (like the soul choices for each class, the rift events, other world and area map events, etc...) those things had not been done before Rift came along. I think that a lot of people forget about the mmorpg time-line when it comes to what games came out when, and what features they had. I’ll also say that having played the end-game content for quite a few games, I found Rift to be fun and exciting as well with all the different strategies and mechanics involved in conquering each raid boss.
Just to add some perspective and context to my post here, I jumped on the mmo bandwagon when Everquest first came out; I started playing a few months after launch actually. It was that game that got me hooked on playing mmo's originally, and so after I quit playing EQ to tend to real life, when I came back to playing mmo's (more casually), I got into WoW, because that was pretty much the only game in town after EQ died down. After-all, and many don't realize, WoW was developed with a few key players from one of the most re known raiding guilds on EQ. So they basically sought to take all the negatives with EQ and improve upon them, while trying to set it apart with the graphics, things like the skill trees, etc... Thus the road we have seen until more recently with the mmo genre have been games that follow in those footprints. It's like evolution folks, there is always an Alpha or "proto-type" if you will, and WoW wasn’t it. I’m sure some of the even more seasoned players on here may jump on and argue that before EQ there was Ultima Online or others, but to me that was a vastly different game. I’m also not including MUD’s for that reason, or AOL’s version of Neverwinter Nights because they just don’t follow the same model.
I think the issue now is that there are so many very different games, and now we see hybrids on the market that allow players a much broader choice of game and play styles. When I am referring to these, it really boils down to the game engine and whether or not there is tab targeting / auto assist, true action combat with a reticule or cross-hairs, or a bastardized hybrid like GW2 (in fact, I hesitate saying it’s a hybrid, they use tab targeting with the added feature of being able to dodge, IMO not worthy of their marketing hype used to describe their combat system). As an example, there are games that resemble more of a console style, like Tera (they use the Unreal 3 engine, and have true action combat), than the traditional mmo like WoW. I'm using specific examples; I'm not saying they are the only ones. That leaves players with many different choices, albeit the console and console/hybrid are just emerging so not as many choices there. What all of this really boils down to are personal preferences, and what you want or expect out of a game these days. I suspect that most of the people that are so affectionately (I’m sure) referred to as “wowkiddies” are players that are bored with WoW’s content and so migrate to new games when they come out in search of the next “fix”. Every now and again, a game will come along and sap the user base of many other games and ultimately drive them to extinction as well, and not necessarily because that game is so much better than every other on the market, but perhaps because it fills a void, is just marginally better than what that person was currently playing, or has some new aspect people want to try (GW2 comes to mind).
Having said all of that… I have my opinions on the games that I’ve played, or seen come and go, but they are my opinions and are based on my experience with other games, and not just including mmo’s because I used to play dice and paper D&D. This is the normal way people judge, right, based on experience? So who really cares what other people think, because it likely doesn’t apply to you. Play your game, the way you want; after-all, they are games and the point is to entertain us. Why waste time bashing a game for a certain aspect you don’t like on their forum, just don’t play it.
So what? Neverwinter is so much better than Rift. I didn't cancel my $15/month with Rift cause of the fee, I cancelled it cause it's boring.
Random rift events are a nuisance if the zone isn't populated or no one wants to help. They get in the way of my questing areas, and many of them can only be soloed up until the final "elite" boss. Once the elite boss spawns, and I can't solo it or find others to help me kill it, I gotta wait several minutes for it to despawn before I can actually progress! Do you know how annoying that is?
The game is also very similar to WoW's tab-targetting system. The multi-class system ain't anything special either because you only gain a small amount of the 2nd and 3rd class you combine with. Some will think you have tons of freedom, but it's not true. The first time I made a character, I just picked what I thought was cool (Warrior + Beast Master and something else) and it blowed. I read a guide on the top builds and unless you spec and chose the right class combinations, you won't be able to play to your full potential.
Anyways I could keep going. But all I have to say is that I don't care about Rift anymore. Instead of trying to be a weak WoW clone, they should of tried to be their own game.
Not that I really want to argue with anyone regarding opinions, but your off on your assessment of Rift's class system. It created a highly customizable method of play for each class. For example: you have Rogues who can tank, Mages that can heal, secondary heal or play utility/buffer, and each class can spec for dps, so it is quite different then you allude and does allow for a great deal of customizable play-styles regardless of what class you pick. Perhaps you didn't get that far though, because you do have to play it for awhile to see these fully realized, and part of that is just the learning curve and experimentation.
Not that I really want to argue with anyone regarding opinions, but your off on your assessment of Rift's class system. It created a highly customizable method of play for each class. For example: you have Rogues who can tank, Mages that can heal, secondary heal or play utility/buffer, and each class can spec for dps, so it is quite different then you allude and does allow for a great deal of customizable play-styles regardless of what class you pick. Perhaps you didn't get that far though, because you do have to play it for awhile to see these fully realized, and part of that is just the learning curve and experimentation.
He wasn't talking about the roles, but rather the customization within those roles - those were always relegated to min/max templates. You didn't really have the true freedom it appeared you did (unless you just wanted to suck, of course). I don't really blame Trion for that, having so many classes and abilities (so many in fact you HAD to use macros in that game) would have been impossible to balance/make relevant. The core gameplay is ripped pretty much from WOW with a dash of public quests from WAR (which they improved upon a bit in Defiance). There really wasn't anything new they brought to the genre, just packaged it a little shinier.
You already get that here though. People are so "sure" you need a trinity here, when there are really four roles, and as long as you play to strengths, you can do pretty much everything. Sure, healers and tanks make things a bit more similar, but all you have to do is look at aggro, and know it's not the same as previous mmos. Instead people say it's broken, refuse to change their ways, or even attempt to try a new play-style.
I had to comment, because it seems Neverwinter is trying to "go back" to most party members having a unique role when it comes to group play. To me it's obvious because they have the guardian fighter (tank) which has the ability, "mark", and then they have the control wizard which has crowd control functions. These box off the four roles that a game like EQ previously had (Tank, healer, dps & crowd control). When WoW came out, they migrated away from the four true roles, and substituted the fourth psuedo-role as an "off-tank", which people now refer to as the "holy trinity" because they don't (and rightfully so) count the off-tank as a separate role. I know people that have been playing mmo's since EQ or earlier will relate with what I'm talking about, but your post hits to that point. You may have meant the opposite, that they are going more for the ambiguity of roles like GW2, but I don't believe that to be the case based on my reasons above. I think they intended to have four main roles filled by certain classes, and some classes having the ability to "substitute", such as the cleric tanking or perhaps the heavy-weapon fighter tanking.
It's funny how many people go on about how they want something "new" but when a game like this, Tera, FFXIV, DDO or Secret World come along, they complain it's too different. They say they are sick of tab targetting and hotbars, and then they say they love GW2, which is the exact same thing.
I couldn't agree more, and I'm not sure how GW2 can claim their combat system is new or unique, that puzzled me. It's tab targeting with the ability to dodge, woo hoo.
He wasn't talking about the roles, but rather the customization within those roles - those were always relegated to min/max templates. You didn't really have the true freedom it appeared you did (unless you just wanted to suck, of course). I don't really blame Trion for that, having so many classes and abilities (so many in fact you HAD to use macros in that game) would have been impossible to balance/make relevant. The core gameplay is ripped pretty much from WOW with a dash of public quests from WAR (which they improved upon a bit in Defiance). There really wasn't anything new they brought to the genre, just packaged it a little shinier.
Yeah, I see what was meant now. You do have a point, on both aspects. It would have been impossible to allow players the complete freedom of choosing whatever combo of soul they desired and still have them be effective in some manner. I think that is just the nature of the beast so to say. To me though they improved upon the way WoW approached skill trees and made it more customizable (or you could say they adopted a slightly different approach to them than WoW, either way I wouldn't say it's a clone).
I think as far as the core gameplay is concerned, they all follow a similar style or approach because of the evolution of mmo's. As I stated in another post, WoW wasn't the first one either so comparing everything to it is sort of silly imo, that's just me though.
I couldn't agree more, and I'm not sure how GW2 can claim their combat system is new or unique, that puzzled me. It's tab targeting with the ability to dodge, woo hoo.
You're forgetting the most important aspect: almost no attack or spell roots you in place. I'm not saying that's necessarily a good thing.
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telainfiloMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 9Arc User
This applies to other things than just this, but don't let other people make the decision to play a game or not, for yourself. Mostly these are people who didn't get their way and they want to take it out on the developer/publisher by trying to convince others to stop playing.
meh have no desire to play RIFT, I am sick to death of being a god, ascended, Deava or WTF ever I want to be an adventurer and an explorer. Neverwinter lest me be at least one of those things.
For about two weeks, then you run out of content.
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kaerthusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Not sure how people can say this game isn't pay to win when you can literally PAY to WIN boss fights...
*sigh* this horse will never see a grave, keeps getting beaten. Its pay2suck, all dungeons are designed, then tested, and retested w/o using any store bought items, this has been said several times. If u need rez scrolls, try harder next time.
That said its laughable that the clock is ticking on a game thats been in open beta for 2 whole weeks, jeez.
Rift had a good launch and a good first year, then went south. The reason they are going f2p is because the way they monetize isnt working. It isnt about pulling a ton of people from other games, but more along the lines of keeping most of their own player base.
And I still claim that there's nothing wrong with P2W other than in PvP. So what if dungeons can only be completed with paid gear. Froobs still have their own set of content they can enjoy. They lose NOTHING.
This is a half truth, dungeons are tested with best possible gear at the level, which includes appropriate enchantments. Appropriate enchantments cost money and are significant.
Really? Because I was looking at the Foundry last night, and I have a hot key to kill the boss. Seems to me that if I have it, they probably do too.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
Comments
But why do these players care so much? Is the angle I am coming from.
I have already tried to explain: growth hormone deficiency
Might aswell put the drops obtainable only from cash shop.
That's a pretty common theme too. I've seen those posts across multiple games, some even single player: If you don't make it like WoW, it's going to fail". Losing the WoW fanbase isn't as big a hit to most games as they seem to think it will be.
Losing the wowkiddies (that aren't the same thing as the wow fanbase) is the best thing that can happen to a MMO...
Actually, no. NOT attracting wowkiddies is the best thing that can happen to a MMO, once they arrive, they are worse than the kiss of death
If a game is similar to WoW is a wowclone. If it's different, "why it's not liek wow???"
The part of the WoW fanbase that's not actively bashing these other games probably feel the same way as the rest of a particular game's community: Why don't you guys just go back to WoW and be happy there then"?
You already get that here though. People are so "sure" you need a trinity here, when there are really four roles, and as long as you play to strengths, you can do pretty much everything. Sure, healers and tanks make things a bit more similar, but all you have to do is look at aggro, and know it's not the same as previous mmos. Instead people say it's broken, refuse to change their ways, or even attempt to try a new play-style.
It's funny how many people go on about how they want something "new" but when a game like this, Tera, FFXIV, DDO or Secret World come along, they complain it's too different. They say they are sick of tab targetting and hotbars, and then they say they love GW2, which is the exact same thing.
I can honestly say, that is the first time i've ever heard someone say that, and i bought the collectors edition.
Rift, meh, played it for months when it came out, got horribly bored, felt like a different WoW, but with a lot less polish. Liked aspects of it, but no way is it ever going to pull players from other games, as anything other than tourists.
Exactly this.
Not sure how people can say this game isn't pay to win when you can literally PAY to WIN boss fights...
Random rift events are a nuisance if the zone isn't populated or no one wants to help. They get in the way of my questing areas, and many of them can only be soloed up until the final "elite" boss. Once the elite boss spawns, and I can't solo it or find others to help me kill it, I gotta wait several minutes for it to despawn before I can actually progress! Do you know how annoying that is?
The game is also very similar to WoW's tab-targetting system. The multi-class system ain't anything special either because you only gain a small amount of the 2nd and 3rd class you combine with. Some will think you have tons of freedom, but it's not true. The first time I made a character, I just picked what I thought was cool (Warrior + Beast Master and something else) and it blowed. I read a guide on the top builds and unless you spec and chose the right class combinations, you won't be able to play to your full potential.
Anyways I could keep going. But all I have to say is that I don't care about Rift anymore. Instead of trying to be a weak WoW clone, they should of tried to be their own game.
NO idiot. How are people so clueless about MMO's?
But... both are free. Why "leave" either?
Grace, Tiefling Devoted Cleric
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. Then leave the rest to Batman."
Moving past all that and putting my two cents in; I used to play Rift myself, and played for quite a bit. It was actually the first game since leaving WoW years ago that held my interest. I thought Rift to be quite fun, and pretty original with some of its game mechanics and content (like the soul choices for each class, the rift events, other world and area map events, etc...) those things had not been done before Rift came along. I think that a lot of people forget about the mmorpg time-line when it comes to what games came out when, and what features they had. I’ll also say that having played the end-game content for quite a few games, I found Rift to be fun and exciting as well with all the different strategies and mechanics involved in conquering each raid boss.
Just to add some perspective and context to my post here, I jumped on the mmo bandwagon when Everquest first came out; I started playing a few months after launch actually. It was that game that got me hooked on playing mmo's originally, and so after I quit playing EQ to tend to real life, when I came back to playing mmo's (more casually), I got into WoW, because that was pretty much the only game in town after EQ died down. After-all, and many don't realize, WoW was developed with a few key players from one of the most re known raiding guilds on EQ. So they basically sought to take all the negatives with EQ and improve upon them, while trying to set it apart with the graphics, things like the skill trees, etc... Thus the road we have seen until more recently with the mmo genre have been games that follow in those footprints. It's like evolution folks, there is always an Alpha or "proto-type" if you will, and WoW wasn’t it. I’m sure some of the even more seasoned players on here may jump on and argue that before EQ there was Ultima Online or others, but to me that was a vastly different game. I’m also not including MUD’s for that reason, or AOL’s version of Neverwinter Nights because they just don’t follow the same model.
I think the issue now is that there are so many very different games, and now we see hybrids on the market that allow players a much broader choice of game and play styles. When I am referring to these, it really boils down to the game engine and whether or not there is tab targeting / auto assist, true action combat with a reticule or cross-hairs, or a bastardized hybrid like GW2 (in fact, I hesitate saying it’s a hybrid, they use tab targeting with the added feature of being able to dodge, IMO not worthy of their marketing hype used to describe their combat system). As an example, there are games that resemble more of a console style, like Tera (they use the Unreal 3 engine, and have true action combat), than the traditional mmo like WoW. I'm using specific examples; I'm not saying they are the only ones. That leaves players with many different choices, albeit the console and console/hybrid are just emerging so not as many choices there. What all of this really boils down to are personal preferences, and what you want or expect out of a game these days. I suspect that most of the people that are so affectionately (I’m sure) referred to as “wowkiddies” are players that are bored with WoW’s content and so migrate to new games when they come out in search of the next “fix”. Every now and again, a game will come along and sap the user base of many other games and ultimately drive them to extinction as well, and not necessarily because that game is so much better than every other on the market, but perhaps because it fills a void, is just marginally better than what that person was currently playing, or has some new aspect people want to try (GW2 comes to mind).
Having said all of that… I have my opinions on the games that I’ve played, or seen come and go, but they are my opinions and are based on my experience with other games, and not just including mmo’s because I used to play dice and paper D&D. This is the normal way people judge, right, based on experience? So who really cares what other people think, because it likely doesn’t apply to you. Play your game, the way you want; after-all, they are games and the point is to entertain us. Why waste time bashing a game for a certain aspect you don’t like on their forum, just don’t play it.
Not that I really want to argue with anyone regarding opinions, but your off on your assessment of Rift's class system. It created a highly customizable method of play for each class. For example: you have Rogues who can tank, Mages that can heal, secondary heal or play utility/buffer, and each class can spec for dps, so it is quite different then you allude and does allow for a great deal of customizable play-styles regardless of what class you pick. Perhaps you didn't get that far though, because you do have to play it for awhile to see these fully realized, and part of that is just the learning curve and experimentation.
He wasn't talking about the roles, but rather the customization within those roles - those were always relegated to min/max templates. You didn't really have the true freedom it appeared you did (unless you just wanted to suck, of course). I don't really blame Trion for that, having so many classes and abilities (so many in fact you HAD to use macros in that game) would have been impossible to balance/make relevant. The core gameplay is ripped pretty much from WOW with a dash of public quests from WAR (which they improved upon a bit in Defiance). There really wasn't anything new they brought to the genre, just packaged it a little shinier.
I had to comment, because it seems Neverwinter is trying to "go back" to most party members having a unique role when it comes to group play. To me it's obvious because they have the guardian fighter (tank) which has the ability, "mark", and then they have the control wizard which has crowd control functions. These box off the four roles that a game like EQ previously had (Tank, healer, dps & crowd control). When WoW came out, they migrated away from the four true roles, and substituted the fourth psuedo-role as an "off-tank", which people now refer to as the "holy trinity" because they don't (and rightfully so) count the off-tank as a separate role. I know people that have been playing mmo's since EQ or earlier will relate with what I'm talking about, but your post hits to that point. You may have meant the opposite, that they are going more for the ambiguity of roles like GW2, but I don't believe that to be the case based on my reasons above. I think they intended to have four main roles filled by certain classes, and some classes having the ability to "substitute", such as the cleric tanking or perhaps the heavy-weapon fighter tanking.
I couldn't agree more, and I'm not sure how GW2 can claim their combat system is new or unique, that puzzled me. It's tab targeting with the ability to dodge, woo hoo.
Yeah, I see what was meant now. You do have a point, on both aspects. It would have been impossible to allow players the complete freedom of choosing whatever combo of soul they desired and still have them be effective in some manner. I think that is just the nature of the beast so to say. To me though they improved upon the way WoW approached skill trees and made it more customizable (or you could say they adopted a slightly different approach to them than WoW, either way I wouldn't say it's a clone).
I think as far as the core gameplay is concerned, they all follow a similar style or approach because of the evolution of mmo's. As I stated in another post, WoW wasn't the first one either so comparing everything to it is sort of silly imo, that's just me though.
You're forgetting the most important aspect: almost no attack or spell roots you in place. I'm not saying that's necessarily a good thing.
This applies to other things than just this, but don't let other people make the decision to play a game or not, for yourself. Mostly these are people who didn't get their way and they want to take it out on the developer/publisher by trying to convince others to stop playing.
For about two weeks, then you run out of content.
*sigh* this horse will never see a grave, keeps getting beaten. Its pay2suck, all dungeons are designed, then tested, and retested w/o using any store bought items, this has been said several times. If u need rez scrolls, try harder next time.
That said its laughable that the clock is ticking on a game thats been in open beta for 2 whole weeks, jeez.
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
Really? Because I was looking at the Foundry last night, and I have a hot key to kill the boss. Seems to me that if I have it, they probably do too.