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Metzli's Dungeon DPS Guide

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  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    @xantris If you had followed the thread thus far I was wondering about charisma due to the companion stat bonuses, not the combat advantage bonus by itself.
    Also I was talking about single target boss dps. If you read the guide I had an entire section dedicated to taking CC for trash / non bosses. If you're doing boss dps right you'd almost never have to use a dazing strike coming out of stealth. Lashing is a far better option, or wicked reminder. I will add a to the alternate strategy section to think about bringing impossible to catch or dazing if it would be particularly beneficial to a boss fight.

    @kittenkawa11 That is the right line of thinking long term, but the game is relatively fresh. Some people want to know what should be "optimal". There are a lot of factors involved in that, and until someone makes an accurate spreadsheet you're right, none of the math we do really means anything.
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    @mrblazer So for a quick comparison of my guide to Luna's....I will just detail where we differ, as the specs are *basically* the same in terms of feats (she takes 20% combat advantage damage, I take 20% stealth ap regen. She takes 10% threat reduction, I take the shocking execution buff).

    We differ in terms of which powers to spend points on and slightly on what rotation to use. Most of these differences I made a point to address thoroughly in my original post, but I will point them out so you can go back and review that, and I may update the post if needed.

    First major difference is Luna chose not to max out tenacious concealment. I discussed in my guide why this can be useful. Luna also chose not to put points into bait and switch, I also discussed why that can be useful. He also chose not to put even one point into Impact shot, again I explained how this can be useful in the post. He also has no points in shadow strike which I consider to be one of the best skills we have, there is a pretty thorough explanation of why shadow strike is amazingly useful in the post (not to mention it is an extra CC if used from stealth).

    So basically in terms of powers he wastes a lot of points on useless skills, and chooses not to take some very useful utility, or one of the highest dps / best utility powers we have (shadow strike). This may be partially due to the fact that he is building to be a little more viable in PVP.

    "Sly Flourish 3/3
    My left mouse button. Great for when you don't have time to do a full Duelist Flurry combo. Also during stealth or combat advantage, this can build up some serious damage quickly.".....Read my explanation of why not to use sky flourish if you have any questions about that.

    He also suggests taking invisible infiltrator. I explained pretty thoroughly why I don't think that is a good choice with the current implementation.

    In terms of the actual dps rotation, he does not use wicked reminder at all (I suggest replacing it if necessary, but for full dps WR is best). And again he doesn't even have shadow blade, which is a huge dps boost. And I have explained a few different times through the thread why I do not feel that dazing strike is a strong "dps" move. He also prefers blitz to Path of Blades. I will try to do more testing to see how these actually stack up in terms of damage. But I prefer it for its ease of use and potiential for large burst on spread out targets.

    So in short his guide does not take into account many current bugs, or the actual implementation of certain abilities. He takes things at face value and doesn't always look for synergy or to take advantage of the bonuses of being stealthed twice as frequently. My guide explains why not to use certain things, and in most cases gives you conditions where those things would become useful. I also try to detail better why you should do things in a certain order or with specific timing.

    Hopefully this explained the difference in our guides without me being too condescending.
  • amazingprotonamazingproton Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    if you're telling us to not use Sky Flourish, why did you put 3 ranks into it?
    _____________________________________________
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  • casia345casia345 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 58
    edited May 2013
    yeah, I need to get ACT up and running.

    Some oddities in tooltips, skill scaling.

    On paper executioner tree sure seems like it should be king. Especially if duelist flurry is bugged and giving 75% severity not 15%. it shouldnt even be close if that is true.
    Yet, in practice, when running scoundrel. My damage is always competitive so far. sometimes I'm number 1 over duelist flurry rogues, sometimes a CW is top. sometimes the exe rogue is tops. (totally had a GF top the charts a dungeon ago... over both me AND another rogue.)
    In practice, sly flourish and scoundrel, are better versus adds, multiple targets. A singular boss that stands there and takes damage. flurry all the way. But if you have to in and out, or kill adds. sly wins. (obviously particularly with a scoundrel build giving +10% damage to it.)
    I only went scoundrel because everyone else was going exec, and flurry is boring and annoying. I didn't/don't expect it to be competitive, yet, I'm not being left behind in actual combat.
  • hellion83hellion83 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I still prefer Sky Flourish over Cloud of Steel because of the low HP trash mobs. You could say Cloud of Steel would work just as well on them, but you only have a limited amount of that and sometimes there are a lot of those little guys. I also do prefer the damage of Sky Flourish on mobs where you don't have a chance for a full Duelist Flurry. Sky Flourish is also mobile, as in you can move while casting it where as Cloud of Steel you have to stand still. I don't think it's a big deal either way, more of a preference thing.
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I put 3 ranks in flourish to waste points, as well as in case they fix the bugs with Flurry so that I can weave. I prefer cloud of steel for the utility over flourish. I'm pretty sure it actually does less damage, but the occasions where I actually need just one hit of flourish to finish an add are few and far between. There is almost always something with plenty of health left to hit with a flurry. Even if the bleed can't tick, the actual hits that apply the bleed do far more damage than flourish. Also, on bosses using a flourish instead of a flurry will open you up handily to have your deadly momentum drop.

    I did try playing scoundrel once, and maybe I was doing it wrong, but I was not really all that competitive with competant CW's and GWF's. By that I mean ones that are not terribly far behind me in damage when playing executioner.
  • hellion83hellion83 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I dunno what it is, but I have a little over 8k gear score and no one has come even close to my dps in any dungeon yet. Only ones that could even try are other executioner rogues. No other class even compares though, we are kind of op. I agree using Flurry in just about every occasion is better, but the few that aren't, I prefer Sky Flourish.
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Updated the main post to reflect that Path of Blades is not even comparable to Blitz in terms of AoE damage.

    @hellion83 What people who think rogue DPS is op fail to realize is that this isn't WoW. Classes are not homogenized. Rogues do single target damage. We're the best at it by far. Every class released so far has their own niche. Wizards are probably the most hybridized of any class as they have CC, strong aoe, and decent single target damage.

    Also I am testing a slightly altered spec that sacrifices crit chance for higher base damage. I will get back to you all on how it performs.
  • mrblazermrblazer Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Yes, that definitely answered all my question with detail.
  • mrblazermrblazer Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    solsol1337 wrote: »
    4. Use Shadow Blade to fill your stealth meter when empty.

    Do you mean Shadow Strike?
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
  • melvingonzomelvingonzo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Completely unrelated question: Are you Metzlii from the Shadowmoon server on WoW?
    ihP5DNl.jpg
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    That is me yes.

    Also: I tested Vorpal enchantment thoroughly earlier, it appears to be working. Other rogues in my guild said they did not think it was working for them. So try your luck if you have the astrals to waste. (It didn't show in my character sheet, but it is obviously working on the damage).
  • larsgoesrawrlarsgoesrawr Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    If you use cloud of steel as a main at will, then why keep it at tier 2?
  • energslaveenergslave Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    how do i get the combat tracker to work? some guy said this star trek plugin works for neverwinter but not for me anyone have a link for working pluggin for this?
  • forfluxforflux Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    What gear sets do you use, or mixture there of? I like the 4 pc set bonus of the Swashbuckling but does anyone know if that works on any ability or only Encounters? It doesn't specify but this game isn't clear on a lot of things. If its on At-Wills as well then it is probably worth using.
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    The powers build was still a bit of a work in progress as I tested other things, I need to update it.

    Near the beginning of the thread I explained where to get the neverwinter plugin that I have been using.

    I have been told that by "powers" it means anything from at-wills to dailies. But I also heard that the master duelist's 4 piece did not work with flurry. So....if the swashbuckling 4 piece works with flurry it is by far the best 4 piece. If it does not then Sinister is probably the best.
  • chanelcorechanelcore Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I'm pretty new to this game so I have a quick question about this build. I just hit lvl 20 and I'm trying to figure out what types of armor to wear. I'm looking at the headgear I can wear and there are two options for me to pick. The Trickster's Mask has +97 critical and the Mask of Mischief focuses on armor penetration and defense. Should I go with the +97 crit to follow with this build? I'm just not sure because the Mask of Mischief is more expensive, which makes me think that it's better than the 97 crit mask.
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    At lower levels you can't really get enough crit to really hit the diminishing returns at all, and the lower level mobs likely do not have a whole lot of armor. But if you are soloing some defense can really cut down on how many pots you may have to use. This guide really is not meant for leveling though.
  • kindathkindath Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Can you go into more detail about how the Duelist's Flurry bleed is calculated? Given that it's such a large portion of your damage, it seems like a good place to optimize.

    I've noticed that the bleed doesn't change in damage once it's at 10 stacks. Would it be beneficial then to save stealth + lurker's for the flurry that will get you the 10th stack and then roll that bleed for the whole fight, or is there something I'm missing?
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    As far as I can tell the damage of each stack is calculated as some percentage of the damage of each hit that stacks it. IE if all 10 hits crit while in lurkers you will obtain your highest possible bleed damage. As far as I can also tell, the bleed does not update properly once you stack it to 10. I need to test to see if "save stealth + lurker's for the flurry that will get you the 10th stack and then roll that bleed for the whole fight" actually will work, but based on what I have seen so far I am pretty sure the weaker bleed overwrites the lurkers bleed, which makes no sense.

    Edit: Upon further review our bleed *always* retains its damage once it's stacked. The damage does decrease if you lose a debuff (fairy fire, wicked reminder, etc), but once you stack it you can mantain the lurkers damage. IE on a dummy I was able to maintain 12k ticks indefinately. Though a few minutes prior to that I was able to produce 12k ticks without lurkers. So I am not entirely sure that the lurkers buff is being applied correctly at all.

    Another problem is that each tick of the bleed does not have its own crit chance. Either your bleed is critting or it isn't. However, once you get a critting bleed you can maintain that critting bleed for the rest of the fight.

    That said, definately it is top damage to apply during lurkers and maintain that stack until the boss dies.
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    So, much testing and combat log trolling later, I have made the following discoveries:

    1. Whether or not your bleed will be a crit or not depends on whether or not the last hit of the actual flurry was a crit or not. For whatever reason the individual bleed applications have their own crit chance, until the last one in the first flurry. After that last application the crit is locked as a boolean one way or the other. Seems buggy.

    2. I cannot make any headway on what actually contributes to the bleed damage. I have the following numbers from one data set of hits. Maybe someone better with math than me can do something useful with it.
    [COLOR="#000000"]
    I did one hit of flurry , which reached 5 stacks. I am listing the hits which applied bleeds, 
    as well as intermittent ticks. I reformatted the log output to be more legible. The first 
    number is damage dealt, the second is true damage. Damage dealt is higher due to dummies 
    having 0% resistance and me having fairy fire applied (Though I seem to be gaining 3% 
    damage, not 6%. 6% of 0 defense = 3% damage?):
    
    18:08:29.7::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Hit,Pn.P7xsed1,Physical,Critical,902.64,876.349
    18:08:29.9::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,Critical,420.288,408.046
    
    18:08:30.2::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Hit,Pn.P7xsed1,Physical,Critical,1243.7,1207.47
    18:08:30.3::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,Critical,1166.13,1132.17
    
    18:08:30.5::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Hit,Pn.P7xsed1,Physical,,565.789,549.31
    18:08:30.5::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,Critical,1770.61,1719.04
    
    18:08:30.8::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Hit,Pn.P7xsed1,Physical,,548.809,532.824
    18:08:30.9::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,,1063.48,1032.51
    
    18:08:31.3::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Hit,Pn.P7xsed1,Physical,Critical,1387.76,1347.34
    18:08:31.4::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,Critical,3213.27,3119.68
    
    18:08:32.4::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,Critical,3213.27,3119.68
    
    Repeats 2 more times until fairy fire falls off then:
    
    18:08:35.4::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Bleed,Pn.Hvtnc3,Physical,Critical,3119.68,0
    
    Repeats 6 more times then the bleed falls off. I also had 3 stacks of deadly momentum 
    before the last application of the bleed (so +9% crit severity for a total of 109%, my 
    25% vorpal is working). This was a total of 15 bleed hits (5 stacks + 10 regular bleed ticks). 
    
    Also, this line appears between every "hit": 
    18:08:30.8::Metzli-60 Duelist's Flurry Hit,Pn.P7xsed1,Power,,-4.44505,0
    I do not really understand what this means, but it appears to be significant.[/COLOR]
    
    Hopefully someone with better math skills than me can make something of this.
  • ashiiiashiii Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    First post on these forums :) Great read, thanks! Got two requests, if it's cool:

    1) Just getting into the game, been enjoying reading the discussion, particularly your post on page 4, comparing your build to Luna's in practical but thorough terms. When you have time, would you be up for making a similar comparison to tgnalfen's guide? http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?216251-UPDATED-60-Trickster-Rogue-Guide

    I'm sure other readers would dig it as well, though it's probably a pain for you lol. Anyhow, up to you :)

    2) I see you give a couple quick thoughts on race selection, any chance you'd beef that section up a bit? Would be nice to read how each race plays into your build. Also seems you left out half-orc; do you not view that as a viable choice, compared to the others?

    Thanks dude!!
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I will update the race section in the morning. The whole race section was basically what came off the top of my head because I had been investing time into the mechanics and had not felt like looking the races up. The 5% crit severity is quite good though (from half orc). Also I updated the feats to reflect the change to 3/3 disciple of strength. 2% damage to all attacks is better than 3% damage to at wills when we do not have threat (especially since I tend to have threat frequently).

    Just from quickly looking at tgnalfen's guide though:
    He suggests primarily stacking power. Power is by far the worst offensive stat. It does not scale at all really. He also completely discounts Armor pen, my guide may not be updated for this yet, but I am going to suggest taking whatever we find to be boss damage resistance (looking like 20% currently) over recovery. This is mainly due to the way that armor pen works with damage resistance debuffs (you can cause mobs to have negative damage resistance).

    Other thing to note overall is his spec is not really meant for damage dealing. His spec is a permanent stealth spec which is meant for soloing and pvp. That said I won't bother comparing most of the guide since it really isn't comparable. Some of his reasoning on why certain skills are bad for pve is still just plain wrong though. I will point those out I guess.

    Duelist's Flurry - By far is the most damage output of any spec. I can see why you wouldn't use this in a permanent stealth build, but you are still losing tons of damage output by not using it. He suggests using flourish as primary at will. Flourish is *only* a good choice for a permastealth build (Or possibly a scoundrel build).

    Lashing Blade - He for some reason thinks that the longer cooldown results in low dps. Most of the time you will be using it from stealth. This means it is an autocrit. It does lots of damage.

    Impossible to Catch - He calls this useless in pve. It is in fact one of the best encounters for any boss that spams aoe's, since you can use it to maintain uptime on the boss.

    Path of the Blade - He calls it good AoE. I made this mistake but I did the testing to correct my error. Path of the blade is completely terrible and you should never use it as an AoE. It isn't an AoE.

    Skillful Infiltrator - 15% move speed is huge. Also 3% crit that you do not need to waste stat points for is really useful. I am not sure why he thinks it's not a noticable speed difference.

    Invisible Infiltrator - I explained in detail why this passive is currently not all that useful in the main post.
  • hellion83hellion83 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I will agree on his comment about Path of Blades being a great AP generator. That's the main reason I use it still.
  • bloodytrailzbloodytrailz Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    So, I've got a couple questions:

    A) What is your suggested gear set if any (or would you prefer/suggest a 2/2 piece split?)

    B) What exactly is the timing on stealthing to deal 2 flurrys+Lashing blade on a stealth? Do you have to stealth part way into the 3rd shot of the first flurry? (If i stealth just before i hit the Part3 of first Duelist flurry +flurry 1/2/3 my stealth ends before i ever get a chance to tap lashing blade)

    C) I'm really not adept at using wicked reminder atm as i ran dazing+deft+lashing most my career....would using impossible to catch to stick to a mob be a viable replacement, or should i just force myself to learn wicked reminder weaving into my combos? (and how do you deal with wicked reminder weaving if your encounters pop up....do you just Flurry1/Flurry2/Flurry3 Lashing Blade>Wicked Reminder>Shadowstrike>Stealth flurry chain?...basically, what skills do you prioritize in the case of multiple options)
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    A) If the swashbuckling set works with flurry I will be using that. If it does not then I will try out the sinister set. Depending on the uptime on the recovery buff it gives. If the uptime is bad I will just use 2 of each for the static stats.

    B) You have to stealth partway into the "third" hit. It's really applying the stealth buff to a minimal part of the first flurry, but it's better than nothing. Then again it may not even work correctly (based on other things I have noticed about when flurry hits actually calculate damage).

    C) If you are optimizing for boss DPS Lashing and shadow strike need to be on rotation. What you do with your third encounter can differ based on boss mechanics. If you can effectively use bait and switch it is by far the best for dps (tons of AP generation capability if you can get it killed). If the boss is AoEing a lot then impossible to catch will be a dps boost as you can ignore some of those aoe's. If you can maintain good uptime but bait and switch would be ineffective, then I suggest taking either dazing strike/impact shot or wicked reminder for dps.

    Here is the thing on wicked reminder though: If someone else in your group is already debuffing (IE ray of enfeeblement + plague fire) then wicked reminder probably isn't necessary (though we are still testing that). However, if you are basically soloing a boss you are giving yourself around a 25% dps boost by maintaining wicked reminder.

    If you are using the setup of WR / SS / LB then your priority follows the one I listed in the main post. Maintaining WR uptime is very important if you are the primary debuffer.
  • solsol1337solsol1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 241 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
  • hellion83hellion83 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Putting all 3 points into Shadow Strike is a waste by the way. Definitely not worth using 2 points to make it's extremely weak damage do 10% more damage.
  • hellion83hellion83 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    So I just respecced my feats, but I lost over 300 gear score after doing so... wtf? Have you seen this?
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