I haven't seen it proven, although I couldn't help with the exaggeration. You guys aren't comparing the best GF to the best TR or GWF. It's simply Envy can do this and yada can do that. Envy might be one of the best GF player right now, and apparently the numbers show that GF out dps a TR, but I don't see any concrete proof.
These few GF's have shown they can seemingly hold their own and even shine quite brightly in dungeons. Nobody and I mean nobody has shown anything to say otherwise other than "no you're wrong" with nothing else added on to it.
Want anything you say to have merit? Invite one of them and run a dungeon. Post the results. Until then you're basically just sitting here calling them liars without reason, and looking rather foolish while doing so.
People who don't want GF are bad or have only grouped with bad GF. I'm irreplaceable in T2s. I bring more AoE DPS than a GWF and comparable single target to a Rogue. I bring decent control and utility and I can take hits. I can heal (myself) better than a Cleric can heal me. By all means, complain and get us buffed but if anything we need a nerf.
If you do more aoe dps than GWFs you are playing with ****ty GWFs.
The ideal composition right now is: Cleric x2 CW GWF Rogue
While my GF can outdps anyone that isn't a rogue, that doesn't mean that we are actually optimal for a party. An optimal party needs two clerics to abuse double blue circle; making very hard fights seem extremely easy. It also needs a CW to AoE and to allow the AoE dps to do more AoE dps. Lastly, it needs a dedicated single target dps. We do not do more AoE damage than GWFs (try playing with one that goes tenebrous + plaguefire + destroyer spec). Just because we do more dps doesn't mean that we do more AoE. We do more dps because we do more AoE + single target combined. However, doing both isn't optimal. This is why you take a rogue as your dedicated single target dps role. Rogues actually out damage every other class by 2-5 mill (try playing with a good, geared rogue). Consequently, they also do mostly single target damage. Sure, you can take a GF instead of a GWF or a rogue and it will work well, however, there's no reason for a party to take a GF over an equally skilled/geared GWF/rogue.
found out why post was bugged (was using a broken character)
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crozenfoxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
I agree, i'm a GF and i feel really useless in dungeon.
There is something wrong with threat...
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prunetracyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Look, Envy and Rokuthy are both phenomenal GF's. They've both discovered that being a DPS GF is a great way to be an asset to your group.
But I think perhaps we can all agree that if playing a Guardian Fighter as a DPS is the only way to be viable, then something is wrong. The tank class should be able to contribute by tanking, yes? Right now, it looks like a Guardian Fighter who is focused on tanking is useless, and that needs to be fixed.
Look, Envy and Rokuthy are both phenomenal GF's. They've both discovered that being a DPS GF is a great way to be an asset to your group.
But I think perhaps we can all agree that if playing a Guardian Fighter as a DPS is the only way to be viable, then something is wrong. The tank class should be able to contribute by tanking, yes? Right now, it looks like a Guardian Fighter who is focused on tanking is useless, and that needs to be fixed.
It's the only way to be viable and it's viable. It's not optimal.
Look, Envy and Rokuthy are both phenomenal GF's. They've both discovered that being a DPS GF is a great way to be an asset to your group.
But I think perhaps we can all agree that if playing a Guardian Fighter as a DPS is the only way to be viable, then something is wrong. The tank class should be able to contribute by tanking, yes? Right now, it looks like a Guardian Fighter who is focused on tanking is useless, and that needs to be fixed.
First of all let me say that no one will ever win a perception battle on the internet. Once the great wheel of consensus has churned it's usually too late to stop it. In this case it's viewed GFs are useless. You can argue your point logically, factually, and with proof and at most you might convince 1-2 people but you won't really stop the over all consensus.
This consensus was built because Guardian Fighter is a challenging role to play that might come off as easy at first and it isn't really seem how difficult it is till you get to around 35 or so in Lair of the Mad Dragon and start seeing numerous dangerous mobs all at once (where as previously you might see 2-3 in a pack). At this point you really need to work towards getting away from straight up just tanking damage and instead work towards controlling the battle using aggro, taunts and CC. These are not concepts easily picked up by your average player which means Guardian Fighters are often times low on the list of damage, low on the list of damage taken, and generally seen useless as they run around doing nothing. It won't be until a patch comes and "fixes things" where your average player can excel with the class that we will see any change in consensus. Until then, people like Envy and Roth are just "freaks" and not the norm of Guardian Fighters.
However the fact is that there are good Guardian players who do know what they are doing. They do know how to establish threat and if threat can be established. Some bosses you just can't and shouldn't even try to tank. More importantly, you can deal a good amount of damage. Most groups I am in I tend to be up in the higher end of damage through AOE. Saying I'm not #1 when a Rogue did 2.3 million and I did 2 million isn't exactly like saying I'm totally worthless, either.
Ironically how well we perform shows how good the class is and ultimately will lead to arguments of why we shouldn't see any "fixes" or "buffs" because clearly someone figured it out and is making the class work so nothing needs to be done which only further perpetuates the GF hate.
I dont care if people like him don't believe me or Rokuthy. I'm just making sure I get the information out there for the people who are interested in learning what their class is capable of.
After all the streams i have seen from T2 gf can compete with gwf in aoe. Those i have seen gwf is ahead, but not by far at all. I have never groupd with a good dmg gf myself but i suspect all those i meet are pure tanks or you need something from endgame to make it viable.
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dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited May 2013
you folks need to understand that cryptic does not like tanks
great unstoppable tanks in coh? nerfed to hell, now scrappers can do the job with more damage
great tanking engineer captains in cruisers running 6 beams shouting THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!? nerfed to hell, now everything is run 5 tactical captains or gtfo
just because D&D is a holy trinity franchise does not mean cryptic will allow it. you want to be gf? learn to dps.
I dont care if people like him don't believe me or Rokuthy. I'm just making sure I get the information out there for the people who are interested in learning what their class is capable of.
I prefer to just impress people in game. I just had a Cragmire Crypt where the cleric on the last boss said in 18 dungeon runs he'd never saw a tank who could pull threat back from him once he had it and I could pull back threat all the time. And I was #2 on the damage meters (with a Rogue and 2 Control Wizards all of us over 9k GS) and #1 on damage taken.
What I think a lot of GF's don't get is that by going the DPS route we pretty much allow ourselves to own the threat meter. I've done tanking in a few games and every time the most important part of tanking is threat. All of our stuff deals double threat with mark on and when we're doing the high DPS we're capable of in a damage spec you can easily hold threat any time.
I think it's pretty sad when we gotta be dps on a defensive class in order to be a viable contender
This really isn't different from other classes who are forced to go into certain specs in order to perform well. For example you will almost always see Renegade Control Wizards. I'm sure Rogues, GWFighters and Clerics all got one basic spec that works better than others as well.
In the Guardian Fighter's case that's the Conqueror tree. It's the most effective tree because it allows us to easily hold threat which is probably the most important aspect to a tank in this game. Many bosses can't be straight up tanked where you just block/eat the damage. You will die if you try. Instead you can easily hold threat and instead work on avoiding abilities and keeping your mobility high.
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maebeknotMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited May 2013
I am only a level 41 GF on my main so what I have to input will only be up to that point. I play a GF because I enjoy tanking in games. I find joy in seeing dozens of mobs trying to beat me down as I laugh in their faces. I've been building towards tanky/aoe threat/aoe CC.
For the first 20 levels I tried tanking anything I could. I could really only hold threat on a few mobs at once. Or a boss while others burnt it down.
Suddenly around level 30 I started getting team mates that would let me start the fights. I would start my rotation and I could hold threat on just about anything (nothing being focused by a rogue or a tank pet). If I tried very hard I could sometimes peel threat away from those players/npcs but then I would lose threat on a lot of other mobs in the process. Also at this point I notice that while I could pull an *** ton of mobs and tank them they would eat me up like a bunch of parais. They would eat through my guard (just couldn't build it back up fast enough) and then my HP. I would find myself kiting them around while I waited for my guard to go up and/or my hp.
Having to kite got me in the practice of using my AOE CC (which knocks the enemies away making it hard to DPS them since they were out of range now). But then I found myself wondering how much was I really helping. Any range class can kite and use their abilities but I'm suppose to be a tank. I'm suppose to be in the thick of it protecting my team mates. It really just felt like I was holding some adds while I let them burn others. I felt like a tank NPC with better AI.
Mid to late 30's I realized that I could be doing a lot better job of keeping adds off CW and DC. So after I start the fight and notice some adds are peeling away I keep an eye on those two classes and makes sure they don't have anything on them. Also if it's a fight that spawns adds I makes sure they don't pick any up. If they did I go and grab those mobs. Really all I'm doing here is kiting for them so they can focus on other things. But WTF, who ever heard of a kite tank? Why am I built for tank?! Why not just take off all gear expect a pair of boots that give movement speed and RP that they are chasing after me but I'm sexy(exaggeration).
Really it comes down to me wondering why the hell do I have some many points spent on increasing my tankyness and my threat. I still feel like I'm super squish and have to resort to kiting more then shield/face tanking. Half my kiting in some groups is me running around trying to pick things up. If it's DC aggro I can pick up before the other mobs I'm tanking become a threat and I have to kite again. I've completely given up on getting threat on anything a DPS is attacking and let them go about their business if they are face tanking it(TR & GWF).
For all I know I'm playing GF wrong, maybe I'm doing it right. I really don't know because I've never grouped with a GF other then a lowbie that my girlfriend knows. All I know is from all my tank experience in MMO's and single player RPGs over the last 20 years. Yet, I do know that for me to specialize in tanking and AOE threat/CC I feel like I'm not doing it well because my class is holding me back. Maybe at the end of the day GFs are not meant to tank large groups while taking the damage for the team. So they can then DPS the mobs in safety. But that just brings us back to "GF's are a waste of party slot". I really hope that is not the case for my favorite role in MMO's & RPGs for this game.
PS: Since there was talk about charts, I'm ALWAYS #1 on damage taken. It will very so I wont say X amount but it's usually a good chunk and I never bother to remember how much because I'm happy if it's #1(feel like I'm some what doing my job). Last 10 levels I've seen myself #3-5 on DPS. Really depends on the comp, also seen it drop lately as I've found myself kiting more then I have had to in the past, especially if we have no heals.
I think it's pretty sad when we gotta be dps on a defensive class in order to be a viable contender
Its more of the fact that GF is dependent on dishing out dmg to hold aggro in the first place. I am only at Level 43 ( far from T3) but so far, I have never been 'useless' in dungeons.
Always 1st in most damage taken and 2nd - 3rd in dps , only losing out to TRs but I have alot of more tankiness compared to them, and I am not even Conqueror speced - specced in Tactician for bonus damage with Trample the fallen and the feats allow me to hold boss aggro pretty well for now in my levels.(25% bonus damage + Threat)
I think the issue is more of GF being unable to hold aggro for a long period of time, as I have observed Enforced Threat (GF's main taunt skill) only draws mobs to you for a short period of time before the mobs proceed to go for the clerics / CWs.
...I can heal (myself) better than a Cleric can heal me.
I was with you until this. As a cleric I dont mind skilled GF's. GF's do have good short bursty heals, but on bosses clerics are there keeping you up even if you're not aware of it. It's not just the active heals or even passive heals from things like astral shield. You also have straight damage resistance and damage shields. Those reduce the damage you take which is a greater benefit to your survivability than you taking more damage and getting heals back up. Clerics own. You're not soloing T2 bosses.
I've run T2s with a lot of different group comps and assuming the players behind the class are generally competent my opinion is you should bring the following:
- 1 GF
- 1 Cleric
- 1 CW
After that it's pretty optional. The last 2 slots I'd fill in order of preference:
- 1 TR
- Second TR or CW
- Second Cleric
- 1 GWF
- Second GF
Different groups comps have different (dis)advantages and the specific T2 actually has a lot of effect on what group comp is 'the best'. But I would never trade a competent GF for another class.
People who don't want GF are bad or have only grouped with bad GF. I'm irreplaceable in T2s. I bring more AoE DPS than a GWF and comparable single target to a Rogue. I bring decent control and utility and I can take hits. I can heal (myself) better than a Cleric can heal me. By all means, complain and get us buffed but if anything we need a nerf.
I'm sure you're a great player but you simply can't bring as much to the group as another cleric. Two clerics, two CWs, and a GWF or TR are pretty much all you need. Tanking doesn't work in this game but AoE damage, control, heals/damage mitigation do.
I was with you until this. As a cleric I dont mind skilled GF's. GF's do have good short bursty heals, but on bosses clerics are there keeping you up even if you're not aware of it. It's not just the active heals or even passive heals from things like astral shield. You also have straight damage resistance and damage shields. Those reduce the damage you take which is a greater benefit to your survivability than you taking more damage and getting heals back up. Clerics own. You're not soloing T2 bosses.
I literally solo'd the T2 Pirate Captain tonight. The rest of the group was on add control on the other side of the boat. Our cleric didn't heal me once, or throw a circle down.
I'm sure you're a great player but you simply can't bring as much to the group as another cleric. Two clerics, two CWs, and a GWF or TR are pretty much all you need. Tanking doesn't work in this game but AoE damage, control, heals/damage mitigation do.
More shield as in GF? I wish you were on the Dragon server so that I could group with you. I find it impossible to believe that you could outdamage my CW who is speced for AoE damage. I'll be leveling a GF next so I guess I'll see what it is capable of in a few weeks.
Truth or not, there will always be a stigma that GFs are only there to tank and tanking at this point is broken. You pretty much have to have your own established group to take a spot as a dps GF (same with dps clerics). It sounds like you're lucky enough to have one of these groups but most GFs won't be as fortunate and will be sitting on the sidelines a lot (at least until astral shield stacking is fixed).
More shield as in GF? I wish you were on the Dragon server so that I could group with you. I find it impossible to believe that you could outdamage my CW who is speced for AoE damage. I'll be leveling a GF next so I guess I'll see what it is capable of in a few weeks.
Truth or not, there will always be a stigma that GFs are only there to tank and tanking at this point is broken. You pretty much have to have your own established group to take a spot as a dps GF (same with dps clerics). It sounds like you're lucky enough to have one of these groups but most GFs won't be as fortunate and will be sitting on the sidelines a lot (at least until astral shield stacking is fixed).
More shield as in GF > 2nd cleric. My static CW is AoE spec and a really good player. In alternates between dungeons, but usually I am on top DPS. A CW contributes to a GF's DPS by a lot. It's all about that black hole. It puts everything in one nice little spot so my cleave can hit every mob for 3-4k+ each swing. If there are 10 mobs there thats over 30k damage a second. Not including the encounter damage which each crit for 10k+
I find it somewhat funny that a certain portion of the thread turned into "Envy-bashing". Besides, Envy seems like a rather fitting name in this situation. What baffles me is that he is the only one providing some sort of proof of his claims, while all others are just saying "no you are wrong because I say so" basically.
Now, on to the GF issue. I play a GF, and really, I am starting to get tired of the misconceptions, badmouthing, and general idiocy that is spreading on the forums about GF not being viable.
There are issues, for sure, about how threat works in this game, which make "tanking" problematic. However, I think the main issue is that most people is just expecting "tanking" to work like it does on more static MMORPGS like, yes I am gonna say it, WoW. If you approach a GF thinking that you will just stand there, doing absolutely nothing but spamming your high threat generating abilities, smiling all the while as a ten meter golems smacks you in the face as you are used to do on other games like WoW, then you are in for a bad, and painful, surprise. It just doesn't work that way. Yes, you can dps. GF have an awesome dps potential, because I would remind you that GF get, at the end of the day, twice as much power as any other class with their Conqueror feat. And even though most gear is aimed toward survival, with the right itemization you can achieve stats worthy of any dps.
But, they can also be excellent tanks, as long as you identify a tank as someone that lessens the pressure on the rest of the party. You have the tools for that. Not only to take a beating, but to actually move, shift, interrupt, kite, diminish group damage, and increase group overall survivability on your own. Sure you don't heal like a cleric, but you can, for example, spam Into the Fray to make everyone else move and generate AP faster. Or halve group damage with Knight's valor. The point is that, if you went Conqueror, you can still do this while dishing out decent, good, or even amazing dps.
The key is adapting your playstile to the challenge in front of you. Be flexible and change your strategy according to the fight. You can tank in this game, but you cannot always be a static rock. Sometimes you have to go with the flow, run like the breeze and scream like your average scary movie starlette while keeping those angry 20 elites away from the rest of your group.
From my experience, "tanking" with a GF is a challenging and fulfilling task, and if you know what you are doing a good GF in a group is a huge addition whatever content you are running. Saying that they are "useless" or even worse that they are actually damaging the group by being there, is not only rather offensive, but also rather silly, as well as a blatant display of ignorance.
Now, just to add the point of view of someone that isn't a "freak" of some unearthly skill like Envy or Rokuthy's, a couple of words about my experience so far as a GF tank: there has not been a SINGLE dungeon, be it normal, t1 or t2, where I ended up anything else than first in damage taken. Despite taking less damage, blocking a fair deal, kiting, and having to deal with those blasted tanking companions in the lower levels. Did you know that you even get the Inamovable Object title if you actually end up first for a X amount of dungeons in damage taken? I can't say to have seen anyone else with that title around yet on Beholder. I also cannot recall a single istance where I was anything less than 3rd in damage since I got 50 and got the last feat of the Conqueror tree. And yes, it is true, I haven't seen Castle Never or the Vault yet, but I trust that I will be able to adapt and remain an asset for whatever group I will run them with.
There is a problem with how threat is handled in this game, yes, but that has hardly much to do with a GF. If you play your cards right you can still pull aggro from your cleric. Or at the very least make sure he won't get even close to being killed.
The only things I would like to see changed, to be honest, are healing threat generation (that needs to be cut down a fair amount), and the removal of the senseless target cap from Enforced Threat. 5 targets max it is kinda a joke given the amount of add spam in t2, I'll concede on that. As for the rest, I think that GF is in a rather good position, perhaps even leaning toward being "OP" in some areas.
P.S.
About GF and self healing, I don't think you really realize how much and how often a GF can heal itself with the proper powers. If you just aim to last indefenately, try Fighter Recovery in conjunction with Iron Warrior and a fair amount of Recovery. Pretty sure you could solo headbutt any boss all day long without even getting close to be in the slightest danger of getting killed.
Comments
This have been proven to be false multiple times now.
"It's a fact" huehuehuehuhae what
Want anything you say to have merit? Invite one of them and run a dungeon. Post the results. Until then you're basically just sitting here calling them liars without reason, and looking rather foolish while doing so.
If you do more aoe dps than GWFs you are playing with ****ty GWFs.
The ideal composition right now is: Cleric x2 CW GWF Rogue
My GF can outdps everyone that isn
edit: found why my post was bugged.
There is something wrong with threat...
But I think perhaps we can all agree that if playing a Guardian Fighter as a DPS is the only way to be viable, then something is wrong. The tank class should be able to contribute by tanking, yes? Right now, it looks like a Guardian Fighter who is focused on tanking is useless, and that needs to be fixed.
First of all let me say that no one will ever win a perception battle on the internet. Once the great wheel of consensus has churned it's usually too late to stop it. In this case it's viewed GFs are useless. You can argue your point logically, factually, and with proof and at most you might convince 1-2 people but you won't really stop the over all consensus.
This consensus was built because Guardian Fighter is a challenging role to play that might come off as easy at first and it isn't really seem how difficult it is till you get to around 35 or so in Lair of the Mad Dragon and start seeing numerous dangerous mobs all at once (where as previously you might see 2-3 in a pack). At this point you really need to work towards getting away from straight up just tanking damage and instead work towards controlling the battle using aggro, taunts and CC. These are not concepts easily picked up by your average player which means Guardian Fighters are often times low on the list of damage, low on the list of damage taken, and generally seen useless as they run around doing nothing. It won't be until a patch comes and "fixes things" where your average player can excel with the class that we will see any change in consensus. Until then, people like Envy and Roth are just "freaks" and not the norm of Guardian Fighters.
However the fact is that there are good Guardian players who do know what they are doing. They do know how to establish threat and if threat can be established. Some bosses you just can't and shouldn't even try to tank. More importantly, you can deal a good amount of damage. Most groups I am in I tend to be up in the higher end of damage through AOE. Saying I'm not #1 when a Rogue did 2.3 million and I did 2 million isn't exactly like saying I'm totally worthless, either.
Ironically how well we perform shows how good the class is and ultimately will lead to arguments of why we shouldn't see any "fixes" or "buffs" because clearly someone figured it out and is making the class work so nothing needs to be done which only further perpetuates the GF hate.
Wrath - 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer
Envy's Guardian Fighter DPS Conqueror Guide
Youtube Channel
http://www.twitch.tv/supjeremiah
great unstoppable tanks in coh? nerfed to hell, now scrappers can do the job with more damage
great tanking engineer captains in cruisers running 6 beams shouting THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!? nerfed to hell, now everything is run 5 tactical captains or gtfo
just because D&D is a holy trinity franchise does not mean cryptic will allow it. you want to be gf? learn to dps.
I prefer to just impress people in game. I just had a Cragmire Crypt where the cleric on the last boss said in 18 dungeon runs he'd never saw a tank who could pull threat back from him once he had it and I could pull back threat all the time. And I was #2 on the damage meters (with a Rogue and 2 Control Wizards all of us over 9k GS) and #1 on damage taken.
What I think a lot of GF's don't get is that by going the DPS route we pretty much allow ourselves to own the threat meter. I've done tanking in a few games and every time the most important part of tanking is threat. All of our stuff deals double threat with mark on and when we're doing the high DPS we're capable of in a damage spec you can easily hold threat any time.
This really isn't different from other classes who are forced to go into certain specs in order to perform well. For example you will almost always see Renegade Control Wizards. I'm sure Rogues, GWFighters and Clerics all got one basic spec that works better than others as well.
In the Guardian Fighter's case that's the Conqueror tree. It's the most effective tree because it allows us to easily hold threat which is probably the most important aspect to a tank in this game. Many bosses can't be straight up tanked where you just block/eat the damage. You will die if you try. Instead you can easily hold threat and instead work on avoiding abilities and keeping your mobility high.
For the first 20 levels I tried tanking anything I could. I could really only hold threat on a few mobs at once. Or a boss while others burnt it down.
Suddenly around level 30 I started getting team mates that would let me start the fights. I would start my rotation and I could hold threat on just about anything (nothing being focused by a rogue or a tank pet). If I tried very hard I could sometimes peel threat away from those players/npcs but then I would lose threat on a lot of other mobs in the process. Also at this point I notice that while I could pull an *** ton of mobs and tank them they would eat me up like a bunch of parais. They would eat through my guard (just couldn't build it back up fast enough) and then my HP. I would find myself kiting them around while I waited for my guard to go up and/or my hp.
Having to kite got me in the practice of using my AOE CC (which knocks the enemies away making it hard to DPS them since they were out of range now). But then I found myself wondering how much was I really helping. Any range class can kite and use their abilities but I'm suppose to be a tank. I'm suppose to be in the thick of it protecting my team mates. It really just felt like I was holding some adds while I let them burn others. I felt like a tank NPC with better AI.
Mid to late 30's I realized that I could be doing a lot better job of keeping adds off CW and DC. So after I start the fight and notice some adds are peeling away I keep an eye on those two classes and makes sure they don't have anything on them. Also if it's a fight that spawns adds I makes sure they don't pick any up. If they did I go and grab those mobs. Really all I'm doing here is kiting for them so they can focus on other things. But WTF, who ever heard of a kite tank? Why am I built for tank?! Why not just take off all gear expect a pair of boots that give movement speed and RP that they are chasing after me but I'm sexy(exaggeration).
Really it comes down to me wondering why the hell do I have some many points spent on increasing my tankyness and my threat. I still feel like I'm super squish and have to resort to kiting more then shield/face tanking. Half my kiting in some groups is me running around trying to pick things up. If it's DC aggro I can pick up before the other mobs I'm tanking become a threat and I have to kite again. I've completely given up on getting threat on anything a DPS is attacking and let them go about their business if they are face tanking it(TR & GWF).
For all I know I'm playing GF wrong, maybe I'm doing it right. I really don't know because I've never grouped with a GF other then a lowbie that my girlfriend knows. All I know is from all my tank experience in MMO's and single player RPGs over the last 20 years. Yet, I do know that for me to specialize in tanking and AOE threat/CC I feel like I'm not doing it well because my class is holding me back. Maybe at the end of the day GFs are not meant to tank large groups while taking the damage for the team. So they can then DPS the mobs in safety. But that just brings us back to "GF's are a waste of party slot". I really hope that is not the case for my favorite role in MMO's & RPGs for this game.
PS: Since there was talk about charts, I'm ALWAYS #1 on damage taken. It will very so I wont say X amount but it's usually a good chunk and I never bother to remember how much because I'm happy if it's #1(feel like I'm some what doing my job). Last 10 levels I've seen myself #3-5 on DPS. Really depends on the comp, also seen it drop lately as I've found myself kiting more then I have had to in the past, especially if we have no heals.
TL:DR sorry my tank experience story is so long.
Its more of the fact that GF is dependent on dishing out dmg to hold aggro in the first place. I am only at Level 43 ( far from T3) but so far, I have never been 'useless' in dungeons.
Always 1st in most damage taken and 2nd - 3rd in dps , only losing out to TRs but I have alot of more tankiness compared to them, and I am not even Conqueror speced - specced in Tactician for bonus damage with Trample the fallen and the feats allow me to hold boss aggro pretty well for now in my levels.(25% bonus damage + Threat)
I think the issue is more of GF being unable to hold aggro for a long period of time, as I have observed Enforced Threat (GF's main taunt skill) only draws mobs to you for a short period of time before the mobs proceed to go for the clerics / CWs.
I was with you until this. As a cleric I dont mind skilled GF's. GF's do have good short bursty heals, but on bosses clerics are there keeping you up even if you're not aware of it. It's not just the active heals or even passive heals from things like astral shield. You also have straight damage resistance and damage shields. Those reduce the damage you take which is a greater benefit to your survivability than you taking more damage and getting heals back up. Clerics own. You're not soloing T2 bosses.
- 1 GF
- 1 Cleric
- 1 CW
After that it's pretty optional. The last 2 slots I'd fill in order of preference:
- 1 TR
- Second TR or CW
- Second Cleric
- 1 GWF
- Second GF
Different groups comps have different (dis)advantages and the specific T2 actually has a lot of effect on what group comp is 'the best'. But I would never trade a competent GF for another class.
I'm sure you're a great player but you simply can't bring as much to the group as another cleric. Two clerics, two CWs, and a GWF or TR are pretty much all you need. Tanking doesn't work in this game but AoE damage, control, heals/damage mitigation do.
I literally solo'd the T2 Pirate Captain tonight. The rest of the group was on add control on the other side of the boat. Our cleric didn't heal me once, or throw a circle down.
Wrath - 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer
Envy's Guardian Fighter DPS Conqueror Guide
Youtube Channel
http://www.twitch.tv/supjeremiah
More DPS/control > more shield any day.
Wrath - 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer
Envy's Guardian Fighter DPS Conqueror Guide
Youtube Channel
http://www.twitch.tv/supjeremiah
More shield as in GF? I wish you were on the Dragon server so that I could group with you. I find it impossible to believe that you could outdamage my CW who is speced for AoE damage. I'll be leveling a GF next so I guess I'll see what it is capable of in a few weeks.
Truth or not, there will always be a stigma that GFs are only there to tank and tanking at this point is broken. You pretty much have to have your own established group to take a spot as a dps GF (same with dps clerics). It sounds like you're lucky enough to have one of these groups but most GFs won't be as fortunate and will be sitting on the sidelines a lot (at least until astral shield stacking is fixed).
More shield as in GF > 2nd cleric. My static CW is AoE spec and a really good player. In alternates between dungeons, but usually I am on top DPS. A CW contributes to a GF's DPS by a lot. It's all about that black hole. It puts everything in one nice little spot so my cleave can hit every mob for 3-4k+ each swing. If there are 10 mobs there thats over 30k damage a second. Not including the encounter damage which each crit for 10k+
Wrath - 60 Great Weapon Fighter - Mindflayer
Envy's Guardian Fighter DPS Conqueror Guide
Youtube Channel
http://www.twitch.tv/supjeremiah
Now, on to the GF issue. I play a GF, and really, I am starting to get tired of the misconceptions, badmouthing, and general idiocy that is spreading on the forums about GF not being viable.
There are issues, for sure, about how threat works in this game, which make "tanking" problematic. However, I think the main issue is that most people is just expecting "tanking" to work like it does on more static MMORPGS like, yes I am gonna say it, WoW. If you approach a GF thinking that you will just stand there, doing absolutely nothing but spamming your high threat generating abilities, smiling all the while as a ten meter golems smacks you in the face as you are used to do on other games like WoW, then you are in for a bad, and painful, surprise. It just doesn't work that way. Yes, you can dps. GF have an awesome dps potential, because I would remind you that GF get, at the end of the day, twice as much power as any other class with their Conqueror feat. And even though most gear is aimed toward survival, with the right itemization you can achieve stats worthy of any dps.
But, they can also be excellent tanks, as long as you identify a tank as someone that lessens the pressure on the rest of the party. You have the tools for that. Not only to take a beating, but to actually move, shift, interrupt, kite, diminish group damage, and increase group overall survivability on your own. Sure you don't heal like a cleric, but you can, for example, spam Into the Fray to make everyone else move and generate AP faster. Or halve group damage with Knight's valor. The point is that, if you went Conqueror, you can still do this while dishing out decent, good, or even amazing dps.
The key is adapting your playstile to the challenge in front of you. Be flexible and change your strategy according to the fight. You can tank in this game, but you cannot always be a static rock. Sometimes you have to go with the flow, run like the breeze and scream like your average scary movie starlette while keeping those angry 20 elites away from the rest of your group.
From my experience, "tanking" with a GF is a challenging and fulfilling task, and if you know what you are doing a good GF in a group is a huge addition whatever content you are running. Saying that they are "useless" or even worse that they are actually damaging the group by being there, is not only rather offensive, but also rather silly, as well as a blatant display of ignorance.
Now, just to add the point of view of someone that isn't a "freak" of some unearthly skill like Envy or Rokuthy's, a couple of words about my experience so far as a GF tank: there has not been a SINGLE dungeon, be it normal, t1 or t2, where I ended up anything else than first in damage taken. Despite taking less damage, blocking a fair deal, kiting, and having to deal with those blasted tanking companions in the lower levels. Did you know that you even get the Inamovable Object title if you actually end up first for a X amount of dungeons in damage taken? I can't say to have seen anyone else with that title around yet on Beholder. I also cannot recall a single istance where I was anything less than 3rd in damage since I got 50 and got the last feat of the Conqueror tree. And yes, it is true, I haven't seen Castle Never or the Vault yet, but I trust that I will be able to adapt and remain an asset for whatever group I will run them with.
There is a problem with how threat is handled in this game, yes, but that has hardly much to do with a GF. If you play your cards right you can still pull aggro from your cleric. Or at the very least make sure he won't get even close to being killed.
The only things I would like to see changed, to be honest, are healing threat generation (that needs to be cut down a fair amount), and the removal of the senseless target cap from Enforced Threat. 5 targets max it is kinda a joke given the amount of add spam in t2, I'll concede on that. As for the rest, I think that GF is in a rather good position, perhaps even leaning toward being "OP" in some areas.
P.S.
About GF and self healing, I don't think you really realize how much and how often a GF can heal itself with the proper powers. If you just aim to last indefenately, try Fighter Recovery in conjunction with Iron Warrior and a fair amount of Recovery. Pretty sure you could solo headbutt any boss all day long without even getting close to be in the slightest danger of getting killed.