rescorlaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited May 2013
For the sake of discussions, lets just assume GF threat generation is currently working as designed.
I've been playing MMOs since EQ1 and how each game handles tanking is different. In EQ1, tanks could typically only hold threat on one mob at a time. In a group you had to have someone else providing crowd control (typically an enchanter or a bard) to keep all the adds locked down while you burned down one mob at a time. If your crowd controller did not perform well, then the healer would get chewed up. In EQ1, the group had to work together as a team to avoid a wipe. You could easily wipe to trash in that game.
Along comes WoW and tanking/threat management got dummified. With a press of a button, tanks could easily generate AOE threat and healers did not have to worry as much about getting beat on and needing crowd control became a thing of the past. DPSers could go balls to the wall and not have to worry about pulling threat off the tank. Other MMOs since WoW have also simplified tanking to the point anyone could do it with the press on one button.
You now have a generation or two of gamers whose only experience with MMOs are easy mode tanking. If this game is "old school" that means we might be back in the situation where players have to play smart and work together. If there is a perception that GFs are "bad" at holding threat, that could very well be because most players are only familiar with MMOs that have easy mode tanking and don't realize they need to play this game differently than other MMOs.
People who don't want GF are bad or have only grouped with bad GF. I'm irreplaceable in T2s. I bring more AoE DPS than a GWF and comparable single target to a Rogue. I bring decent control and utility and I can take hits. I can heal (myself) better than a Cleric can heal me. By all means, complain and get us buffed but if anything we need a nerf.
You must have been in groups with terrible clerics then.
[XBOX] - Malvious - Oathbound Paladin
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dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
For the sake of discussions, lets just assume GF threat generation is currently working as designed.
I've been playing MMOs since EQ1 and how each game handles tanking is different. In EQ1, tanks could typically only hold threat on one mob at a time. In a group you had to have someone else providing crowd control (typically an enchanter or a bard) to keep all the adds locked down while you burned down one mob at a time. If your crowd controller did not perform well, then the healer would get chewed up. In EQ1, the group had to work together as a team to avoid a wipe. You could easily wipe to trash in that game.
Along comes WoW and tanking/threat management got dummified. With a press of a button, tanks could easily generate AOE threat and healers did not have to worry as much about getting beat on and needing crowd control became a thing of the past. DPSers could go balls to the wall and not have to worry about pulling threat off the tank. Other MMOs since WoW have also simplified tanking to the point anyone could do it with the press on one button.
You now have a generation or two of gamers whose only experience with MMOs are easy mode tanking. If this game is "old school" that means we might be back in the situation where players have to play smart and work together. If there is a perception that GFs are "bad" at holding threat, that could very well be because most players are only familiar with MMOs that have easy mode tanking and don't realize they need to play this game differently than other MMOs.
to be fair to wow, you had to cc adds in vanilla and most of bc. it wasn't until wrath that we had the 'tank pulls entire dungeon at once, everyone aoe's it down' setup.
mmo's released before 2008 still require cc or multiple offtanks. heck, aoc single-group dungeons all require two tanks, two healers and two dps.
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elanithMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
It comes down to not enough info from Devs about how threat is supposed to be working.
If working at intended, the current misconception that GFs are bad is due to mostly from GFs being confused about how we are supposed to be playing the class. Which is completely different then the current gen of MMOs, which is ok, but confusing due to the lack of info. Luckily we have some GF that are exploring other paths and seem to be working out quite nicely (Envy, Rokuthy specificly). Just turned 60 yesterday so looking forward to testing out my GF this week.
On the other hand if threat is completely borked atm, then yes GFs have some serious issues, but issues we can currently deal with by changing our playstyle till the Devs getting around to fixing things.
Its also possible Threat is completely borked, but the Devs are liking whats happening and will keep it around. Only time will tell.
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elanithMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
to be fair to wow, you had to cc adds in vanilla and most of bc. it wasn't until wrath that we had the 'tank pulls entire dungeon at once, everyone aoe's it down' setup.
mmo's released before 2008 still require cc or multiple offtanks. heck, aoc single-group dungeons all require two tanks, two healers and two dps.
I blame Paladins and the community in BC. It was "easier" to run pug 5 mans with paladins (good warriors could still get through easily as well, but it required more skill, especially if you wanted to keep up with the speed of clearing with a paladin).
Blizzard had two choices, buff warrior AoE To match paladins, or nerf paladin AoE to match Warriors. We all know which way they went.
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arontimesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
The way the fighter class works in D&D 4e is that he forces the enemy to fight him or take massive damage. Basically, when a fighter marks a target, that target gets -2 to all attack rolls that don't include the fighter as a target. This is roughly -10% DPR (damage per round) if the marked enemy tries to ignore the fighter. And if he tries to gank the squishy cleric or wizard, the fighter gets a free attack on him. Most classes in 4e can only attack once per round (the ranger is a rare exception), so the fighter gets +100% DPR against a marked enemy that ignores him.
This means that the DM must choose to have the monsters attack the heavily armed and armored fighter to avoid giving the fighter free attacks, or risk trying to gank the wizard and get slapped with free damage. I find that Cryptic's implementation of this part of D&D is true to the spirit of the game.
PS
All 4e defenders use the marking mechanic (-2 to attack rolls that don't include the defender), but their punisher mechanic varies. Paladins issue a Divine Challenge, and the mark gets zapped with automatic radiant damage if he ignores the best paladin. Swordmages, depending on their build, can either teleport to and attack the mark, reduce the mark's damage, or teleport the mark to where he is to force the mark to fight him; assault swordmage, shielding swordmage, and ensnaring swordmage respectively.
After watching a few streams over the last couple of days, I see why everyone thinks GFs are bad. The Guardians that everyone are grouping with are probably doing absolutely nothing beneficial for the group whatsoever. I watched this streamer last night 'tanking' a T2 (pirates or something) - the entire boss fight he's just running around chasing the cleric, attempting to stab (melee attack while blocking) mobs while the cleric kiting probably 40 adds (terrible unnecessary strat for pirate), and then AE taunting on top of that pack thinking it's going to do something (5 mob limit). The tank probably did 50k damage the entire boss fight, never had aggro on a single mob, and the group basically killed the boss in spite of him, not because of him.
The guy had like 600 viewers. If these are the guardians that people are grouping with, then this entire thread is justified. That's. Not. How. You. Play. This. Class. At. This. Time.
cleric/cleric/cw/rogue/gwf is not the only viable group comp. It's a crutch, easy mode cheese comp that probably won't last forever, and GFs are than more than capable of pulling their weight on any fight I've seen so far - but I definitely understand the stigma if all GF's are paying their class like that guy in the stream last night.
This is through the first 3 bosses in Castle Never - regardless of what you think about my group mates, how can you possibly say that GF's don't carry their weight if played correctly? No matter how good any replacements would be that you added to our group, I'm still capable of keeping up with just about anyone. No double cleric cheese, (or triple cleric cheese for that matter after watching a stream last night), 1 of each class:
Play my foundry campaign, Vermilion: Spirit of Gevaudan. The first quest, The Desperate Messenger is now available @ NWS-DM44FZM2W
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aveanMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Il just add, Ive only grouped with Envy in Pvp, and fought against him in pvp - and greatly respect him,
ive read his thread and see him as a solid player, and am impressed that hes pushing the class and can see why it works.
As much as the paragon tree is required for GFs, its equally important for CWs and TRs as well, itts just that the feats are very biased and forceful to one style of play, those who try something else lose, like all offbuilds.
First of all let me say that no one will ever win a perception battle on the internet. Once the great wheel of consensus has churned it's usually too late to stop it. In this case it's viewed GFs are useless. You can argue your point logically, factually, and with proof and at most you might convince 1-2 people but you won't really stop the over all consensus.
This consensus was built because Guardian Fighter is a challenging role to play that might come off as easy at first and it isn't really seem how difficult it is till you get to around 35 or so in Lair of the Mad Dragon and start seeing numerous dangerous mobs all at once (where as previously you might see 2-3 in a pack). At this point you really need to work towards getting away from straight up just tanking damage and instead work towards controlling the battle using aggro, taunts and CC. These are not concepts easily picked up by your average player which means Guardian Fighters are often times low on the list of damage, low on the list of damage taken, and generally seen useless as they run around doing nothing. It won't be until a patch comes and "fixes things" where your average player can excel with the class that we will see any change in consensus. Until then, people like Envy and Roth are just "freaks" and not the norm of Guardian Fighters.
However the fact is that there are good Guardian players who do know what they are doing. They do know how to establish threat and if threat can be established. Some bosses you just can't and shouldn't even try to tank. More importantly, you can deal a good amount of damage. Most groups I am in I tend to be up in the higher end of damage through AOE. Saying I'm not #1 when a Rogue did 2.3 million and I did 2 million isn't exactly like saying I'm totally worthless, either.
Ironically how well we perform shows how good the class is and ultimately will lead to arguments of why we shouldn't see any "fixes" or "buffs" because clearly someone figured it out and is making the class work so nothing needs to be done which only further perpetuates the GF hate.
Exactly. When I played the Mad dragon for the first time with my GF friend, we were ready to experience how broken aggro was...
Our group downed the dragon in our first try. My friend knows how to play a GF and knows how to tank in THIS game. Just because the tank class in Neverwinter can't just AoE taunt the entire zone and keep aggro on every add, it doesn't mean the system is broke. So the healers have to move around a bit. What's wrong with that? Every class must help control the flow of the fight with CC and not just tank 'n spank while watching health bars. Learn how to play with the rules before you instead of asking to change them to make it easier or more familiar.
I'm starting to get worried that by the time I make it to endgame, that all the whiners will get the agro system nerfed and make this game like every other MMORPG.
Well, aggro system is broken, block system is broken and not to mention the DUNGEON GAMEPLAY itself is also a bit of broken.
Bad game for a "tanky" class:D
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limitlesschaosMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
Honestly, I play a GWF (I'm waiting for poor man's Drow before I make a GF) and I think in this particular thread, Envy acts a bit like a ******* because he's also tanking in this thread - everyone's barbing the guy for (possibly too aggressively) asserting that a thread more or less calling his class useless (like a Ret paladin in Vanilla WoW in all but the most prestigious of guilds who had ONE) is inaccurate and that he can prove the misconception is just that.
Sure, he's doing what anyone who is good at something that's being decried does; aggressively and ferociously defending it.
I admit, there are more gentlemanly and calm ways to defend a point or position; but hey, the guy gets attacked and hit in the nose for a living - give him some credit and leeway here. The man has provided evidence that supports his claims (again, I'm a GWF and while I don't think any class is abominable in epics, Envy is only saying he knows what GF can do and it's not useless by any stretch) and you can't expect him to simply try to prove that GF isn't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...no, he's fighting from a position so far below par that the only way to bring it home is to SKY ROCKET TO GREATNESS (that is, he's not just proving that GF is a passable class, but a phenomenal one - we're not so useless that you can never bring us, we're not just good enough to be a decent choice, no, we're ****ing amazing and you should have one of us at all times..that's the point) and you can't at all attack or blame him.
So yeah - his tone was defensive and aggressive at once but you can't blame him - he's standing up for his class and a personal decision he made - no different from the GWF players in beta 3/4 who leveled up and defended our class from everyone saying we were worthless too.
Stop trying to kill each other - Guardian Fighters aren't useless and like many tanks in other games, they can hold their own quite well in dungeon content. As for Envy - you proved your point well and your guide is very humorously written, +1 for that. Just relax a bit, you know GFs don't suck and can prove it any time you'd like.
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drekorsilverfangMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
Considering it takes 3-4 GF's to hold aggro on all the adds off the cleric it's easier to just stack more clerics and outheal it then try and handle the threat.
I just got started on Neverwinter earlier this week. I've been horribly bored with DPS and healing for years now and have found tanking to be the only thing that really keeps me entertained. That being said, I just had my first dungeon tanking experiences yesterday, running Cloak Tower a couple times. I understand this is the very first dungeon, but even that early in the game it's pretty apparent that tanking in Neverwinter is a bit... Different.
I found myself spending a lot of time chasing mobs around trying to get aggro while my group-mates punted the mobs to-and-fro, making it very difficult to even get *to* the mobs, let alone hit the **** things. The quantity of adds that spawn during the boss encounters make it practically impossible to keep control of the battle. I learned quickly that the best you could really hope for is to hold the boss and maybe one or two other mobs while the rest of the group relied on their dodge/teleport/whathaveyou to keep them alive long enough to clear the adds.
Seems to me that a group could easily do the same thing with the boss without a GW there holding it in place. It may be a bit more convenient to have a GW tanking the boss, but it does seem to me to be more advantageous to have more healing or more DPS than it is to have someone holding the boss. With the entire group having ways to avoid the boss' big hits, it doesn't really seem like tanks bring a whole lot to the table.
Now, I'm certainly not saying GWs don't have a whole lot to contribute. This is more about tanking than it is about the class itself. Seems the best way to get the most benefit out of a GW is to spec it for DPS and just try to soak up as much agro and damage as possible. Again, I've only run Cloak Tower a few times, and I know T2 dungeons are a totally different beast altogether, but I can already start seeing these issues pop up even at level 16.
It's a bit sad, as I really enjoy traditional tanking and would hate to see the role phased out or made obsolete. I'm not expecting to be able to drop one AoE taunt and then go have a cigarette or anything, but I don't really like seeing every other class in the game with better tools to control boss encounters when it's supposed to be my class' area of expertise. I can't say I have any real suggestions as to how to fix it, given that I haven't even experienced end game yet at all, and I may not have any issue whatsoever by the time I hit 60, but this information does have me concerned, as tanking is what I do. I'm a tank. I tank things.
I'd like to see some clarification of exactly what my role is expected to be as a GW in end-game dungeons. Am I going to have the tools to reliably hold aggro and be expected to do so, or are we all going down the "everyone's a DPS"/Guild Wars 2 route? Is there any reason for me to be chasing the mobs the clerics are punting back and forth or should I just leave it to someone's tank companion?
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dral1313Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Don't think we are as bad off as the OP says, but on the other hand people shouldn't be saying things are fine l2p when they have gear maybe .5-1% of the players posses, so obviously this isn't going to be the same experience for those first starting epics.
I'd like to throw my 2 cents in on this. I'm coming from CO which is another Cryptic game. I discovered awhile ago that "taunting" mobs yanks agro for all of like a second or so. What grabbed their attention the best was a combination of damage and "taunting". The reason why healing in this game is pulling so much agro, is because ALL of the mobs will agro from either healing, damage, or "taunting" with "taunting" being the weaker of the three. I tried making a healer for CO and figured out quickly what was causing the issues after a little thought. The healing I was doing was causing all the mobs that hadn't been damaged or taunted to automatically agro onto me. What worked best, I found, was to wait until the mobs had been all "touched" before starting healing. This, sadly, didn't work that well because a LOT of players didn't know how the agro mechanics worked in the game. They tended to become focused on that ONE target that absolutely NEEDed to be destroyed before moving onto the next. This caused me to rethink my "game". I ended up making my own tank that held agro nicely from everything he touched. He was a combination of tank/DPS. He had high enough DPS, AoE and single target, that he could get mobs attentions. He also had "taunt" abilities built into his attacks. The combination of "taunt" AND DPS made him a magnet for mobs. Those people that grouped with me, including healers, never ever had any complaints to make about him at all. I also had to adjust my playstyle for the tanking as well. I ended up having to pull or initiate all the fights. That kept me a step ahead of the groups. It made me seem reckless or foolhardy, but it worked well. I was "tankish" enough that I could survive long enough for the healers to catch up with me. Initiating the fights also let me "touch" all the mobs so that those trigger happy ranged/melee builds/players couldn't pull agro from me because, while they might have specced for DPS, NONE of them ever specced for "taunting" as well.
You might say that this game isn't CO, and you're right. It IS a Cryptic game that has a LOT of similar things in it though. This game, for me, is similar enough that it's actually VERY very comfortable, but different enough that it's still hella fun! I'm going to guess that Cryptic didn't cobble together an entirely brand spanking new system just for this game. I'm going to guess, and judging by the posts, rightly that they reused a bunch of stuff. This would explain all the trouble that people, in general, have been having.
So, while it might be sad that you can't hide behind your shield and just soak up damage like a good damage sponge, it's good because maybe, just maybe, it'll break you out of your mental blockage about the old "holy trinity". CO was NEVER a "holy trinity" game and I'm going to guess this one isn't either. Remember, this isn't EQ or whatever the equivalent is now-a-days. It's a new world. Break out of your old and dusty molds. Stretch your wings/arms/tentacles/appendages! Try new things! You might find that you actually LIKE splitting mobs down the center with your barely used swords/axes/whatevers!
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair" Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time. "Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
I'd like to throw my 2 cents in on this. I'm coming from CO which is another Cryptic game. I discovered awhile ago that "taunting" mobs yanks agro for all of like a second or so. What grabbed their attention the best was a combination of damage and "taunting". The reason why healing in this game is pulling so much agro, is because ALL of the mobs will agro from either healing, damage, or "taunting" with "taunting" being the weaker of the three. I tried making a healer for CO and figured out quickly what was causing the issues after a little thought. The healing I was doing was causing all the mobs that hadn't been damaged or taunted to automatically agro onto me. What worked best, I found, was to wait until the mobs had been all "touched" before starting healing. This, sadly, didn't work that well because a LOT of players didn't know how the agro mechanics worked in the game. They tended to become focused on that ONE target that absolutely NEEDed to be destroyed before moving onto the next. This caused me to rethink my "game". I ended up making my own tank that held agro nicely from everything he touched. He was a combination of tank/DPS. He had high enough DPS, AoE and single target, that he could get mobs attentions. He also had "taunt" abilities built into his attacks. The combination of "taunt" AND DPS made him a magnet for mobs. Those people that grouped with me, including healers, never ever had any complaints to make about him at all. I also had to adjust my playstyle for the tanking as well. I ended up having to pull or initiate all the fights. That kept me a step ahead of the groups. It made me seem reckless or foolhardy, but it worked well. I was "tankish" enough that I could survive long enough for the healers to catch up with me. Initiating the fights also let me "touch" all the mobs so that those trigger happy ranged/melee builds/players couldn't pull agro from me because, while they might have specced for DPS, NONE of them ever specced for "taunting" as well.
You might say that this game isn't CO, and you're right. It IS a Cryptic game that has a LOT of similar things in it though. This game, for me, is similar enough that it's actually VERY very comfortable, but different enough that it's still hella fun! I'm going to guess that Cryptic didn't cobble together an entirely brand spanking new system just for this game. I'm going to guess, and judging by the posts, rightly that they reused a bunch of stuff. This would explain all the trouble that people, in general, have been having.
This brings up a good question: Does the healing caused by powers like Astral Seal generate aggro for the cleric? Seems it'd be a bit counter-intuitive, as increasing my own DPS would increase the cleric's aggro in that case.
On CO, ANY sort of healing caused agro. Even self healing. They DID tone down the amount of agro healing pulled, but that didn't help a lot of folks because they were still stuck in the old "holy trinity" mode. The only things that pulled agro were straight damage, healing, and taunting (again, taunting being the weaker of the three and not long lasting at all unless reapplied). Boosting stats, abilities, or damage didn't cause agro at all.
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair" Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time. "Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
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xantrisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
hi its not your fault, most people play guardian fighters, for the survivability hoping they wont die and seen as suckers. Therefore majority of GF suck and have gained a very bad rep. Its not Cryptic who says GF suck, its the playerbase and its a direct result to the people that play the class, or the approach they took to it. So blame them.
Actually it's cleric shields stacking. It makes a "tank" character trivial.
On CO, ANY sort of healing caused agro. Even self healing. They DID tone down the amount of agro healing pulled, but that didn't help a lot of folks because they were still stuck in the old "holy trinity" mode. The only things that pulled agro were straight damage, healing, and taunting (again, taunting being the weaker of the three and not long lasting at all unless reapplied). Boosting stats, abilities, or damage didn't cause agro at all.
Yeah, I was afraid of that. Would be nice to see a buff like Guard from Warhammer Online, where you can drop Guard on the healer and it transfers 50% threat generated and 50% of the damage received by the healer to the tank as long as the guarded target was within a certain range. Would even be nice to see 10% or 25%.
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dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
while being the only viable way of doing t2 without a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of frustration
The question is: Is this because of bad mechanics or just plain bads?
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aishiraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Played a lot of diffrent T2 with just one clerik and no tank. Works just fine most of the time.
Also been in Icespire and Spidertemple with a clerik + Tank. The Tank was speced hybrid as far as I can tell.
He may not come close to the CW in damage and does half the damage of the two TR.
However it did feel more easy having him around because he did release preasure on clerik and DDs. Which is exactly what a Tank is suposed to do.
I'd take a good GF in my grp anytime. But I would prefer hybrid Tanks over anything as they are tanky enough and can put okish DPS while being able to bring some control.
I think it all depend on the build.
Yesterday I was in a party with a 50TR, while I was 49TR i did exactly 1 million more damage then him, and he was second in dps, not a slacker.
If you do more damage than a TR as a GF then I dunno, you must be a very good player, pretty much incredible one...
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abloecMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This is through the first 3 bosses in Castle Never - regardless of what you think about my group mates, how can you possibly say that GF's don't carry their weight if played correctly? No matter how good any replacements would be that you added to our group, I'm still capable of keeping up with just about anyone. No double cleric cheese, (or triple cleric cheese for that matter after watching a stream last night), 1 of each class:
And still tanking...
Worthless? I think not.
That GWF is whats worthless 17 mil in Castle Never... you need to get a new GWF.
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dixa1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
The question is: Is this because of bad mechanics or just plain bads?
after watching several streams of t2 dungeons, it's bad mechanics.
however i never expect it to change. this is not the same company that gave us the holy trinity that WORKED in CoH. remember CO? remember STO? hell sto you can do all content with the equivalent of a 5 rogue party.
Reading through the countless threads on GF's being terrible and useless, and the countless threads of Clerics being completely broken and listening to hundreds of people cry about these two class's. I've come to one conclusion. There are hundreds of terrible players in this game.
Not talking about any time in actual beta, this game is braaaaand new. People are still learning the class's. Instead of doing some research, or talking to other players and tossing ideas around, people flood the forums with cry baby poopoo pants threads when they cant figure out the class they are playing. Its completely evident if you take a fiew minutes and read some threads.
From a cleric stand point, I am having zero issues single healing groups in any T2. I understand this game is not like other games, as in you dont get to just stand in one spot like a robot and press a heal button every now and then. Its a completely new way to combat in mmo that I have ever seen, and I am thoroughly enjoying it.
I have grouped with great GF's, and terrible ones. At this point, not having done CN yet. I really dont notice much of a differance when a GF is, or isnt present in the group. I've had countless very successful runs with, and without them. In my opinion yes, the GF seems broken as far as just the "threat" is conscerned, a tank is supposed to pull threat. If the only way for a GF to gain threat is to spec dps then saying that, its obvious the GF needs a threat re-work. Now alot of you, Envy included, are continually talking about how much dps GF's "can" do. For me?....I could give 2 ****s honestly how much dps people do in any run, just as long as we are able to finish the dungeon, and kill the boss. From a healers standpoint, I see dps with huuuuge dps numbers in dungeons. But that doesnt mean they are "doing a great job". I have seen many dps switch targets every 2 seconds, not having actually KILLED one add during a fight, sure, the numbers are there, but in the moment of the actual fight, when the boss is still alive, hopping around like an idiot hitting every single mob a fiew times and not actually focusing down a mob, is stupid and its what inexperienced players do. Then they think they are doing awesome because there numbers are high, but I see it as useless numbers. Its like an Affliction lock in WoW pvp bragging about huge numbers cuz he doted everyone he seen with one dot and moved on, pointless right? So obviously this is not the case with all DPS dont get me wrong, thankfully I've grouped with very good players of all class's, that are actually doing there job of there class.
What I'm getting at here guys,.....the class's "arent" broken, its the players that are inexperienced, and get madbr0 when they are doing a terrible job at there class, they are looking to blame something. But talking with Envy, and Ruk, and I've grouped with other excellent GF's, its obvious all class's are viable, including GF..heres the kicker, IF PLAYED RIGHT.
I feel your pain GF's, I have tried many times explaining cleric'ing to people wanting to ragequit but I've given up. I never have problems out of the ordinary with healing, I ****ing love my Cleric. The one thing I would like to see changed is Righteousness. Not sure the point in it honestly. Clerics are healers, thats the job, the only job, no point in nerfing self heals. But even if its not fixed, I am used to the playstyle as a cleric right now, so anything they do will only make me even more overpowered imo.
I'll group with a GF anytime, and I would never "not" go into a dungeon because of a GF in the group.
People who don't want GF are bad or have only grouped with bad GF. I'm irreplaceable in T2s. I bring more AoE DPS than a GWF and comparable single target to a Rogue. I bring decent control and utility and I can take hits. I can heal (myself) better than a Cleric can heal me. By all means, complain and get us buffed but if anything we need a nerf.
Added red because yes.
Strat@stratxzz on the Dragon Shard
Strat - Great Weapon Fighter - Level 60 ( Retired for now ) Strattwo - Control Wizard - Level 60 Stratx - Devoted Cleric - Level 60 Stratt - Trickster Rogue - Level 18
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So I run with a static group, but out of curiosity, I attempted to get a group in zone chat tonight. Sent people tells, etc. After pleading and stating my case, giving experience examples, performance examples etc, I literally could not get a group for the T2 groups that were looking for a GWF or a 2nd cleric (these groups didn't already have a GF). The stigma is strong.
Quite sad and hilarious at the same time how misinformed people are.
So I run with a static group, but out of curiosity, I attempted to get a group in zone chat tonight. Sent people tells, etc. After pleading and stating my case, giving experience examples, performance examples etc, I literally could not get a group for the T2 groups that were looking for a GWF or a 2nd cleric (these groups didn't already have a GF). The stigma is strong.
Quite sad and hilarious at the same time how misinformed people are.
Yeap that's why I say you could come up with the most logical and factual arguments around and facts are once that consensus that X or Y is bad you won't get rid of it until a patch. Likely it won't happen until people either read about a huge buff to Guardians (which we won't see cause we're actually pretty strong) or they nerf the double Cleric circle and people need tanks again.
Since our best set comes out of T1 it's not as bad, can farm T1 for seals and then later try to find pirate seal farming groups for more jewelry since we don't actually need T2. At least that's the route i've been doing until I can find some sort of stable group to run with.
Comments
I've been playing MMOs since EQ1 and how each game handles tanking is different. In EQ1, tanks could typically only hold threat on one mob at a time. In a group you had to have someone else providing crowd control (typically an enchanter or a bard) to keep all the adds locked down while you burned down one mob at a time. If your crowd controller did not perform well, then the healer would get chewed up. In EQ1, the group had to work together as a team to avoid a wipe. You could easily wipe to trash in that game.
Along comes WoW and tanking/threat management got dummified. With a press of a button, tanks could easily generate AOE threat and healers did not have to worry as much about getting beat on and needing crowd control became a thing of the past. DPSers could go balls to the wall and not have to worry about pulling threat off the tank. Other MMOs since WoW have also simplified tanking to the point anyone could do it with the press on one button.
You now have a generation or two of gamers whose only experience with MMOs are easy mode tanking. If this game is "old school" that means we might be back in the situation where players have to play smart and work together. If there is a perception that GFs are "bad" at holding threat, that could very well be because most players are only familiar with MMOs that have easy mode tanking and don't realize they need to play this game differently than other MMOs.
You must have been in groups with terrible clerics then.
to be fair to wow, you had to cc adds in vanilla and most of bc. it wasn't until wrath that we had the 'tank pulls entire dungeon at once, everyone aoe's it down' setup.
mmo's released before 2008 still require cc or multiple offtanks. heck, aoc single-group dungeons all require two tanks, two healers and two dps.
If working at intended, the current misconception that GFs are bad is due to mostly from GFs being confused about how we are supposed to be playing the class. Which is completely different then the current gen of MMOs, which is ok, but confusing due to the lack of info. Luckily we have some GF that are exploring other paths and seem to be working out quite nicely (Envy, Rokuthy specificly). Just turned 60 yesterday so looking forward to testing out my GF this week.
On the other hand if threat is completely borked atm, then yes GFs have some serious issues, but issues we can currently deal with by changing our playstyle till the Devs getting around to fixing things.
Its also possible Threat is completely borked, but the Devs are liking whats happening and will keep it around. Only time will tell.
I blame Paladins and the community in BC. It was "easier" to run pug 5 mans with paladins (good warriors could still get through easily as well, but it required more skill, especially if you wanted to keep up with the speed of clearing with a paladin).
Blizzard had two choices, buff warrior AoE To match paladins, or nerf paladin AoE to match Warriors. We all know which way they went.
This means that the DM must choose to have the monsters attack the heavily armed and armored fighter to avoid giving the fighter free attacks, or risk trying to gank the wizard and get slapped with free damage. I find that Cryptic's implementation of this part of D&D is true to the spirit of the game.
PS
All 4e defenders use the marking mechanic (-2 to attack rolls that don't include the defender), but their punisher mechanic varies. Paladins issue a Divine Challenge, and the mark gets zapped with automatic radiant damage if he ignores the best paladin. Swordmages, depending on their build, can either teleport to and attack the mark, reduce the mark's damage, or teleport the mark to where he is to force the mark to fight him; assault swordmage, shielding swordmage, and ensnaring swordmage respectively.
Taking a break from Neverwinter indefinitely...
The guy had like 600 viewers. If these are the guardians that people are grouping with, then this entire thread is justified. That's. Not. How. You. Play. This. Class. At. This. Time.
cleric/cleric/cw/rogue/gwf is not the only viable group comp. It's a crutch, easy mode cheese comp that probably won't last forever, and GFs are than more than capable of pulling their weight on any fight I've seen so far - but I definitely understand the stigma if all GF's are paying their class like that guy in the stream last night.
And still tanking...
Worthless? I think not.
ive read his thread and see him as a solid player, and am impressed that hes pushing the class and can see why it works.
As much as the paragon tree is required for GFs, its equally important for CWs and TRs as well, itts just that the feats are very biased and forceful to one style of play, those who try something else lose, like all offbuilds.
Exactly. When I played the Mad dragon for the first time with my GF friend, we were ready to experience how broken aggro was...
Our group downed the dragon in our first try. My friend knows how to play a GF and knows how to tank in THIS game. Just because the tank class in Neverwinter can't just AoE taunt the entire zone and keep aggro on every add, it doesn't mean the system is broke. So the healers have to move around a bit. What's wrong with that? Every class must help control the flow of the fight with CC and not just tank 'n spank while watching health bars. Learn how to play with the rules before you instead of asking to change them to make it easier or more familiar.
I'm starting to get worried that by the time I make it to endgame, that all the whiners will get the agro system nerfed and make this game like every other MMORPG.
Bad game for a "tanky" class:D
Sure, he's doing what anyone who is good at something that's being decried does; aggressively and ferociously defending it.
I admit, there are more gentlemanly and calm ways to defend a point or position; but hey, the guy gets attacked and hit in the nose for a living - give him some credit and leeway here. The man has provided evidence that supports his claims (again, I'm a GWF and while I don't think any class is abominable in epics, Envy is only saying he knows what GF can do and it's not useless by any stretch) and you can't expect him to simply try to prove that GF isn't <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...no, he's fighting from a position so far below par that the only way to bring it home is to SKY ROCKET TO GREATNESS (that is, he's not just proving that GF is a passable class, but a phenomenal one - we're not so useless that you can never bring us, we're not just good enough to be a decent choice, no, we're ****ing amazing and you should have one of us at all times..that's the point) and you can't at all attack or blame him.
So yeah - his tone was defensive and aggressive at once but you can't blame him - he's standing up for his class and a personal decision he made - no different from the GWF players in beta 3/4 who leveled up and defended our class from everyone saying we were worthless too.
Stop trying to kill each other - Guardian Fighters aren't useless and like many tanks in other games, they can hold their own quite well in dungeon content. As for Envy - you proved your point well and your guide is very humorously written, +1 for that. Just relax a bit, you know GFs don't suck and can prove it any time you'd like.
I found myself spending a lot of time chasing mobs around trying to get aggro while my group-mates punted the mobs to-and-fro, making it very difficult to even get *to* the mobs, let alone hit the **** things. The quantity of adds that spawn during the boss encounters make it practically impossible to keep control of the battle. I learned quickly that the best you could really hope for is to hold the boss and maybe one or two other mobs while the rest of the group relied on their dodge/teleport/whathaveyou to keep them alive long enough to clear the adds.
Seems to me that a group could easily do the same thing with the boss without a GW there holding it in place. It may be a bit more convenient to have a GW tanking the boss, but it does seem to me to be more advantageous to have more healing or more DPS than it is to have someone holding the boss. With the entire group having ways to avoid the boss' big hits, it doesn't really seem like tanks bring a whole lot to the table.
Now, I'm certainly not saying GWs don't have a whole lot to contribute. This is more about tanking than it is about the class itself. Seems the best way to get the most benefit out of a GW is to spec it for DPS and just try to soak up as much agro and damage as possible. Again, I've only run Cloak Tower a few times, and I know T2 dungeons are a totally different beast altogether, but I can already start seeing these issues pop up even at level 16.
It's a bit sad, as I really enjoy traditional tanking and would hate to see the role phased out or made obsolete. I'm not expecting to be able to drop one AoE taunt and then go have a cigarette or anything, but I don't really like seeing every other class in the game with better tools to control boss encounters when it's supposed to be my class' area of expertise. I can't say I have any real suggestions as to how to fix it, given that I haven't even experienced end game yet at all, and I may not have any issue whatsoever by the time I hit 60, but this information does have me concerned, as tanking is what I do. I'm a tank. I tank things.
I'd like to see some clarification of exactly what my role is expected to be as a GW in end-game dungeons. Am I going to have the tools to reliably hold aggro and be expected to do so, or are we all going down the "everyone's a DPS"/Guild Wars 2 route? Is there any reason for me to be chasing the mobs the clerics are punting back and forth or should I just leave it to someone's tank companion?
You might say that this game isn't CO, and you're right. It IS a Cryptic game that has a LOT of similar things in it though. This game, for me, is similar enough that it's actually VERY very comfortable, but different enough that it's still hella fun! I'm going to guess that Cryptic didn't cobble together an entirely brand spanking new system just for this game. I'm going to guess, and judging by the posts, rightly that they reused a bunch of stuff. This would explain all the trouble that people, in general, have been having.
So, while it might be sad that you can't hide behind your shield and just soak up damage like a good damage sponge, it's good because maybe, just maybe, it'll break you out of your mental blockage about the old "holy trinity". CO was NEVER a "holy trinity" game and I'm going to guess this one isn't either. Remember, this isn't EQ or whatever the equivalent is now-a-days. It's a new world. Break out of your old and dusty molds. Stretch your wings/arms/tentacles/appendages! Try new things! You might find that you actually LIKE splitting mobs down the center with your barely used swords/axes/whatevers!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair"
Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time.
"Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair"
Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time.
"Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
Actually it's cleric shields stacking. It makes a "tank" character trivial.
while being the only viable way of doing t2 without a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of frustration
Also been in Icespire and Spidertemple with a clerik + Tank. The Tank was speced hybrid as far as I can tell.
He may not come close to the CW in damage and does half the damage of the two TR.
However it did feel more easy having him around because he did release preasure on clerik and DDs. Which is exactly what a Tank is suposed to do.
I'd take a good GF in my grp anytime. But I would prefer hybrid Tanks over anything as they are tanky enough and can put okish DPS while being able to bring some control.
Yesterday I was in a party with a 50TR, while I was 49TR i did exactly 1 million more damage then him, and he was second in dps, not a slacker.
If you do more damage than a TR as a GF then I dunno, you must be a very good player, pretty much incredible one...
That GWF is whats worthless 17 mil in Castle Never... you need to get a new GWF.
after watching several streams of t2 dungeons, it's bad mechanics.
however i never expect it to change. this is not the same company that gave us the holy trinity that WORKED in CoH. remember CO? remember STO? hell sto you can do all content with the equivalent of a 5 rogue party.
Not talking about any time in actual beta, this game is braaaaand new. People are still learning the class's. Instead of doing some research, or talking to other players and tossing ideas around, people flood the forums with cry baby poopoo pants threads when they cant figure out the class they are playing. Its completely evident if you take a fiew minutes and read some threads.
From a cleric stand point, I am having zero issues single healing groups in any T2. I understand this game is not like other games, as in you dont get to just stand in one spot like a robot and press a heal button every now and then. Its a completely new way to combat in mmo that I have ever seen, and I am thoroughly enjoying it.
I have grouped with great GF's, and terrible ones. At this point, not having done CN yet. I really dont notice much of a differance when a GF is, or isnt present in the group. I've had countless very successful runs with, and without them. In my opinion yes, the GF seems broken as far as just the "threat" is conscerned, a tank is supposed to pull threat. If the only way for a GF to gain threat is to spec dps then saying that, its obvious the GF needs a threat re-work. Now alot of you, Envy included, are continually talking about how much dps GF's "can" do. For me?....I could give 2 ****s honestly how much dps people do in any run, just as long as we are able to finish the dungeon, and kill the boss. From a healers standpoint, I see dps with huuuuge dps numbers in dungeons. But that doesnt mean they are "doing a great job". I have seen many dps switch targets every 2 seconds, not having actually KILLED one add during a fight, sure, the numbers are there, but in the moment of the actual fight, when the boss is still alive, hopping around like an idiot hitting every single mob a fiew times and not actually focusing down a mob, is stupid and its what inexperienced players do. Then they think they are doing awesome because there numbers are high, but I see it as useless numbers. Its like an Affliction lock in WoW pvp bragging about huge numbers cuz he doted everyone he seen with one dot and moved on, pointless right? So obviously this is not the case with all DPS dont get me wrong, thankfully I've grouped with very good players of all class's, that are actually doing there job of there class.
What I'm getting at here guys,.....the class's "arent" broken, its the players that are inexperienced, and get madbr0 when they are doing a terrible job at there class, they are looking to blame something. But talking with Envy, and Ruk, and I've grouped with other excellent GF's, its obvious all class's are viable, including GF..heres the kicker, IF PLAYED RIGHT.
I feel your pain GF's, I have tried many times explaining cleric'ing to people wanting to ragequit but I've given up. I never have problems out of the ordinary with healing, I ****ing love my Cleric. The one thing I would like to see changed is Righteousness. Not sure the point in it honestly. Clerics are healers, thats the job, the only job, no point in nerfing self heals. But even if its not fixed, I am used to the playstyle as a cleric right now, so anything they do will only make me even more overpowered imo.
I'll group with a GF anytime, and I would never "not" go into a dungeon because of a GF in the group.
P.S. Clerics are the best class in the game /flex
Added red because yes.
Strat - Great Weapon Fighter - Level 60 ( Retired for now )
Strattwo - Control Wizard - Level 60
Stratx - Devoted Cleric - Level 60
Stratt - Trickster Rogue - Level 18
http://theeoi.com - Visit for more information on our gaming community.
Quite sad and hilarious at the same time how misinformed people are.
Yeap that's why I say you could come up with the most logical and factual arguments around and facts are once that consensus that X or Y is bad you won't get rid of it until a patch. Likely it won't happen until people either read about a huge buff to Guardians (which we won't see cause we're actually pretty strong) or they nerf the double Cleric circle and people need tanks again.
Since our best set comes out of T1 it's not as bad, can farm T1 for seals and then later try to find pirate seal farming groups for more jewelry since we don't actually need T2. At least that's the route i've been doing until I can find some sort of stable group to run with.