As players hit 60, more and more groups will not take a GF in Tier 2 PVE

ceonnyn · May 2013

I keep seeing posts like this daily.

Make sure you do not bring a guardian - as they just are a blatant detriment to any group t2+ as compared to all the other classes.

2-3 clerics, and 1-2 rogue/wiz/weapon fighter is all you need.

If you have a guardian in your group and you wipe - the fault is on you for allowing them to stay.

These posts are accumulating, people are formulating their opinions, and GF is on a one-way track to become like the retadin in WoW where it was anethema for one expansion.

Being that I am only in Tier 1 (8000 gear score), I can't say as to the validity of not needing a GF, but the fact is - more and more people are talking about it daily.

Cryptic continues to ignore us and the community as far as letting us know if they even see issues with how things are, if things are being worked on, or if this is how it is going to be (live with it or quit).

I am sure there will be some GF that are exceptional and do not have an issue. However, if the majority of people feel that it is a waste of a slot to bring a GF, then it is a waste of a slot. You can't put lipstick on a pig and call it a - EXACTLY.

People will only keep asking for a tank because they are used to that, until they figure out any other class is a better option.

Being that this is an OPEN BETA, and is a SUCCESS, from the article blurb on the front page, why exactly is it a problem to post some development info (excluding surprises) on the forums? Basic game mechanics are basic game mechanics. We shouldn't have to grovel and just wait and see like uninformed peons

And last, I've more than shown my support for this game and have given quite a bit of money (even besides my founders <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>) to helping it succeed. Is it really that hard to be a bit more open about stuff?

seyerje · May 2013

hi its not your fault, most people play guardian fighters, for the survivability hoping they wont die and seen as suckers. Therefore majority of GF suck and have gained a very bad rep. Its not Cryptic who says GF suck, its the playerbase and its a direct result to the people that play the class, or the approach they took to it. So blame them.

ceonnyn · May 2013

I don't know if you can say that its the players that suck when generally there is a specific mindset of person who chooses to play what they think is a tank class.

Generally I would say tank players across the board, coming from other mmos, know their stuff. They've been trained by other games to expect certain things.

Who knows, maybe this is just more like GW2 than we thought?

supjeremiah · May 2013

People who don't want GF are bad or have only grouped with bad GF. I'm irreplaceable in T2s. I bring more AoE DPS than a GWF and comparable single target to a Rogue. I bring decent control and utility and I can take hits. I can heal (myself) better than a Cleric can heal me. By all means, complain and get us buffed but if anything we need a nerf.

elspethtirelnw · May 2013

As a GWF who has played and complained about the Sentinel paragon path since BW3, I agree. It would be nice to have some kind of developer insight as to the viability of tanking and threat in general. At least you GFs have some more reliable means of handling threat. :P

bejita231 · May 2013

I dont think they really care, for every 1 GF there's 500 rogues/CW's, but that's cryptic for you, only care about the majority

Rogues being OP probably is the other reason GF and GWF cant hold aggro...

someoneod · May 2013

supjeremiah wrote: »

People who don't want GF are bad or have only grouped with bad GF. I'm irreplaceable in T2s. I bring more AoE DPS than a GWF and comparable single target to a Rogue. I bring decent control and utility and I can take hits. I can heal (myself) better than a Cleric can heal me. By all means, complain and get us buffed but if anything we need a nerf.

Gloating about something that is mechanically impossible just makes you look stupid. GF is theoretically highest single target dps, but it is no-where near the same in terms of AOE damage. You also cannot heal yourself better than a cleric can, unless that includes potion spamming. If GF need anything it is some sort of aoe control or taunt ability.

tacowizard · May 2013

Blame Cryptic for their broken aggro system.

supjeremiah · May 2013

someoneod wrote: »

Gloating about something that is mechanically impossible just makes you look stupid. GF is theoretically highest single target dps, but it is no-where near the same in terms of AOE damage. You also cannot heal yourself better than a cleric can, unless that includes potion spamming. If GF need anything it is some sort of aoe control or taunt ability.

As a GF Im always 1st or 2nd in damage done. I've NEVER been beaten by a GWF. I can heal 30k HP in 2-3 seconds with no pot use. Please tell me more.

deistik · May 2013

supjeremiah wrote: »

I can heal 30k HP in 2-3 seconds with no pot use.

Constantly? I can just pour out the heals on my group (minus myself, thanks Righteousness!), but it's not 10k+ per second.

teethx · May 2013

When did this open beta start?

Anyways PW, Cryptic are ignoring the community is very sad. What is the point of having a publicists if they dont do their jobs.

supjeremiah · May 2013

deistik wrote: »

Constantly? I can just pour out the heals on my group (minus myself, thanks Righteousness!), but it's not 10k+ per second.

Probably once every 20-30 seconds. Even less if I'm on add control. It's about AP gain, which comes pretty quickly when you're a GF.

deistik · May 2013

OMG I love the GF AP gain buff!

You still need a cleric in epics then

supjeremiah · May 2013

deistik wrote: »

OMG I love the GF AP gain buff!

You still need a cleric in epics then

I need the cleric to heal the rest of the group! I can go an entire boss fight without a single heal from the cleric. ^^

trickshaw · May 2013

supjeremiah wrote: »

I'm irreplaceable in T2s. I bring more AoE DPS than a GWF and comparable single target to a Rogue.

I'm going to answer this horse**** with a modified version of the first sentence in your own post,

You've only grouped with bad TR's and GWF if you think you put out more AoE or single target DPS. When you out damage a GWF by millions, that's plural, of points of damage then come back here. Until then I call shenanigans.

supjeremiah · May 2013

trickshaw wrote: »

I'm going to answer this horse**** with a modified version of the first sentence in your own post,

You've only grouped with bad TR's and GWF if you think you put out more AoE or single target DPS. When you out damage a GWF by millions, that's plural, of points of damage then come back here. Until then I call shenanigans.

Ask anyone on the server who's grouped with me.

trickshaw · May 2013

supjeremiah wrote: »

Ask anyone on the server who's grouped with me.

I just did. 20 out of 20 people surveyed say you're full of ****.

And after watching some of your YouTube videos I'd say those 20 people aren't far off the mark.

supjeremiah · May 2013

someoneod wrote: »

Gloating about something that is mechanically impossible just makes you look stupid. GF is theoretically highest single target dps, but it is no-where near the same in terms of AOE damage. You also cannot heal yourself better than a cleric can, unless that includes potion spamming. If GF need anything it is some sort of aoe control or taunt ability.

Who needs a healer?

frychikn · May 2013

lol i love watching this guy get called out for his bull****

yukishiro3 · May 2013

Right now clerics have to pull the weight GFs should be pulling because GFs can't tank.

There is very little reason at this point in the game to take one GF and one cleric instead of 2 clerics. If you already have 2 clerics it doesn't really matter what the other 3 classes are, although if given the choice between a rogue and a GF I dunno why anyone would take the GF at this point.

kdub6164 · May 2013

Really guys? Envy has one of the most influential and thorough builds this forum has. He shows a video clearly showing how his statements are believable, if not necessarily indisputable. I would say that he, out of anyone else in this thread, has demonstrated a very vast knowledge when it comes to GF. And a few of you respond with insults and denial. STFU and learn from someone better than you. Once you've reached his level then you can debate with him. Thanks for the great info, supjeremiah.

PS: Aggro could be handled a little better in game though.

xaazx · May 2013

kdub6164 wrote: »

Really guys? Envy has one of the most influential and thorough builds this forum has. He shows a video clearly showing how his statements are believable, if not necessarily indisputable. I would say that he, out of anyone else in this thread, has demonstrated a very vast knowledge when it comes to GF. And a few of you respond with insults and denial. STFU and learn from someone better than you. Once you've reached his level then you can debate with him. Thanks for the great info, supjeremiah.

LOL get a room or get off his junk. GF may not be as bad as everyone claims, but they sure don't out AOE a GWF, out single target a TR, and heal better than a Cleric. I don't care who this clown thinks he is, but if even 2 out of those 3 are true in his groups, he needs better groups.

munkey81 · May 2013

supjeremiah wrote: »

As a GF Im always 1st or 2nd in damage done. I've NEVER been beaten by a GWF. I can heal 30k HP in 2-3 seconds with no pot use. Please tell me more.

This is a laughable statement.

Pics or it didnt happen honestly. I've grouped with excellent GF that have just "barely" beat me as a cleric, 200k ish more mostly.

Sad thing is this OP is correct from what I have seen. As a cleric, 95% of the time I always have taken the most dmg, obviously outhealed every other member by millions...cuz thats what clerics do.

My most favorite group make ups have been Myself, 2 rogues, cw and a gwf. Or 2 clerics 2 rogues and a cw for easy mode, swap out rogue for gwf same differance.

I hope they make the GF a viable tank. I have not played one for myself so I have no clue as to what they can actually do, or are supposed to be able to do. But as a tank, I dont notice when one isnt there, or is...I've just gotten used to kiting **** as a cleric. If anything, not having threat is just making more bad a ss clerics, when they finally do fix it, I'm not even sure what I'll do if I'm not running around like an ******* with 50 things chasing me

Healing in this game is easy when you can stand still, doing AND kiting everything in the zone is the kicker

GL GF's! Hope they fix you guys

munkey81 · May 2013

I watched your 18 second video on youtube. Impressive. But I would rather see a video of you tanking a T2 boss, as well as adds without a cleric healing you, and see what happens when you burn your daily on mobs you cant one-shot, and see your "30k" heals. I'm all for it bud, but again...pics or vids or it didnt happen

supjeremiah · May 2013

munkey81 wrote: »

I watched your 18 second video on youtube. Impressive. But I would rather see a video of you tanking a T2 boss, as well as adds without a cleric healing you, and see what happens when you burn your daily on mobs you cant one-shot, and see your "30k" heals. I'm all for it bud, but again...pics or vids or it didnt happen

I heal even more on boss + adds because the more targets I hit the higher the heal. I don't tank adds. I'll gladly put up a clip later when I run dungeons.

madqhue · May 2013

supjeremiah wrote: »

I heal even more on boss + adds because the more targets I hit the higher the heal. I don't tank adds. I'll gladly put up a clip later when I run dungeons.

The whole game is tanking adds. That is the entire game with the current content. Does no good to have you tanking the boss if the adds are all running around killing everyone else, which is why two clerics is a better bet than ever taking a GF. Even if every statement you have made is true the group as a whole is better off having two healer/tanks than 1 healer and 1 non-tank.

supjeremiah · May 2013

madqhue wrote: »

The whole game is tanking adds. That is the entire game with the current content. Does no good to have you tanking the boss if the adds are all running around killing everyone else, which is why two clerics is a better bet than ever taking a GF. Even if every statement you have made is true the group as a whole is better off having two healer/tanks than 1 healer and 1 non-tank.

Cleric kites adds gg? Why bring two clerics when you can do it with one?

rokuthy · May 2013

This is what happens when there's a cheesy method in a game to overcome obstacles rather than using skill and strategy. Because something like double astral shield stacking exists, people start to assume it's the only way to do things.

Newsflash: it isn't. It's a crutch, and if that ever gets nerfed, then what are all these little double cleric groups going to do? I've completed everything up to the final boss in DV and Never as a GF and haven't felt like a wasted spot in quite a while. I'll admit that when I attempted to run a full tank build for a while, I began to feel that way. As soon as I dropped it completely and started running my hybrid build, I've more than earned my spot in my group.

And yes, we dominate AE damage, if you've never seen a GF do this, then maybe YOU are playing with bad Guardians, since you keep accusing others of playing with bad GWFs. Hell, I'd even propose that you name an amazing GWF, and then invite me (or Envy) to run an instance with them and then you can see first hand what a GF is capable of. And I don't just ignore everything to put out as much damage as possible; I'm 100% a tank. I control adds, I CC things when it's possible, I'll gather mobs, I kill loose ranged mobs, I'll tank a boss if it's more of a beneficial strat, etc. Point is, I'll do whatever each fight requires to be successful without the double astral shield cheese. One day that might go away and you're going to have to find another crutch. But for the groups running with a GF that's playing the class the way that makes it viable, it won't affect us.

wopacheng · May 2013

rokuthy wrote: »

This is what happens when there's a cheesy method in a game to overcome obstacles rather than using skill and strategy. Because something like double astral shield stacking exists, people start to assume it's the only way to do things.

Newsflash: it isn't. It's a crutch, and if that ever gets nerfed, then what are all these little double cleric groups going to do? I've completed everything up to the final boss in DV and Never as a GF and haven't felt like a wasted spot in quite a while. I'll admit that when I attempted to run a full tank build for a while, I began to feel that way. As soon as I dropped it completely and started running my hybrid build, I've more than earned my spot in my group.

And yes, we dominate AE damage, if you've never seen a GF do this, then maybe YOU are playing with bad Guardians, since you keep accusing others of playing with bad GWFs. Hell, I'd even propose that you name an amazing GWF, and then invite me (or Envy) to run an instance with them and then you can see first hand what a GF is capable of. And I don't just ignore everything to put out as much damage as possible; I'm 100% a tank. I control adds, I CC things when it's possible, I'll gather mobs, I kill loose ranged mobs, I'll tank a boss if it's more of a beneficial strat, etc. Point is, I'll do whatever each fight requires to be successful without the double astral shield cheese. One day that might go away and you're going to have to find another crutch. But for the groups running with a GF that's playing the class the way that makes it viable, it won't affect us.

What you've got here is a logical and plausible post.

Now we just wait for a GWF or a cleric to come in and simply say "you're wrong" in a rather angry tone without stating why they believe you to be wrong.

uberoverpower · May 2013

supjeremiah wrote: »

As a GF Im always 1st or 2nd in damage done. I've NEVER been beaten by a GWF. I can heal 30k HP in 2-3 seconds with no pot use. Please tell me more.

Then you're either playing with REALLY bad players or extremely undergeared compared to you. I'm a CW and never had less then 60-70% more damage then GFs.

Or you're abusing Tenebrous enchant...that works as well.

shakeypen · May 2013

It's a fact that GF are the most useless class in dungeons. It is because the gameplay mechanic is broken. People are only rejecting GF in T2 dungeons because those dungeons are particularly hard so the worthlessness of a GF is more evident.

The broken reason why GF aren't wanted for parties: They can't generate enough threat over the clerics' heals or the threat mechanic isn't working so they are essentially the most useless class as they can't tank and they don't do the best dps.

As players hit 60, more and more groups will not take a GF in Tier 2 PVE

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