D&D (4.0): The big sale and preview focused on how much they were destroying both types of customisations. Players would be forced into premade builds that would be exactly the same as everyone else (even classes were made to be as nearly identical as possible). DMs would be no longer expected to create a world: NPCs simply existed to give a quest and vanish (actual quote mentioned a king giving a quest and vanishing). At this point I simply was sad for the loss of the D&D name (OGL meant 3.x couldn't die that way) and ignored 4e from then on. I understand it didn't turn out quite that bad, but when you salesmen are pushing how it is completely unlike D&D in every way, don't expect anyone to bother to find out.
Got a link? That is all entirely unlike how 4E actually is (there's a lot of build freedom, and the DM is expected to build a world due to the very bare-bones default setting), and that sounds like an absurd way to pitch it.
DDOs level cap was 10 when they started, it's 25, soon to be 28, now.
They started with 9 classes and 5 races (iirc) and now have 13 classes 8 races.
So I expect NWO to grow.
But the thing with DDO is that it is quite flexible.
There have been effective and popular builds that are very unconventional.
Like sorcerer's who tank with a greatsword, clerics who specialize in unarmed combat, barbarian trappers, bard main healers, bard and cleric who use bows exclusively, artificers and favored souls who melee with two-handed weapons. These aren't gimp, flavor builds either. people found a way to make them work.
By allowing a little freedom with the basic tools you can make some really fun, head-scratcher builds.
But PvP is a problem.
DDO PvP is hidden entirely in the basement of the Lobster for a reason. It is barely part of the game, the devs could care less about balancing for it, and nothing you do in those pits has any meaning outside of the Lobster.
The ability to make a gimp is a completely different issue in DDO. In fact, Turbine pushes new player hard to make gimps, starting with the suggested paths, which vary between "insta gimp that will require a huge number of feat swaps and possibly a lesser resurrection" to "starts almost right, but will eventually be gimped to the point a lesser resurrection will be needed to fix". Pretty much expect everything you read from Turbine to give you the wrong idea on how to build a character.
Some things to note: that melee sorcerer (16 sorcerer/2 paladin/2 monk?) build actually worked for a very long time (I think it has been replaced by an artificer build called the juggernaut). Other off the wall builds can work with a fairly decent knowledge of the game or other tricks to keep up, but don't expect to play in epic elite (or maybe even epic hard). There used to be entire guilds based on building G.I.M.P (Get Into Multiclass Play) who chose their classes randomly (gimp being the operative word).
On of my favorite character builds was my "zerg to unlock drow" build. At the time, I wanted to experiment with both permadeath and TWF drow paladin builds. Since I had all my character slots full on my home server (Orien, which I had long since unlocked 32 pt builds) I decided to unlock drow on Thelanis. I then built a max strength, 14 int, 14 con human [didn't have WF yet] wizard (everything else dumped). The wizard then used a greataxe to chop up all foes to roughly level 7 (using a great axe with normal dumped strength(a minimum of 10 strength is recommended due to encumberance and strength draining spells) was standard practice in those days). All [both] level increases went into intelligence (since I was shifting from melee to spells as he leveled), but he remained a wizard missing 4 points of intelligence. At 7th level he could learn firewall and went back through previous levels, running on elite and racking up all favor needed for drow (and managed to score level 8). Some time after free LRs became available I've since respeced him to a standard wizard (he was having lots of trouble hitting by level 6), but I sometimes miss my melee-wizard.
Everyone i know downloaded this game amusing they'd experience a familiar D&D experience.
Almost all of the games shortfalls could be over looked if the class system was more complex. Simplifying the class system has destroyed the heart of the Forgotten Realms experience. It has to be said this game looks doomed, I cant see how IGN won't completely trash this game for not being a closer relation to NWN.
(btw Its not micro transaction when its not a micro amount of money)
If by some miracle they redesign the classes to NWN style please come visit me and let me know
Got a link? That is all entirely unlike how 4E actually is (there's a lot of build freedom, and the DM is expected to build a world due to the very bare-bones default setting), and that sounds like an absurd way to pitch it.
I think they removed it shortly after the launch (it was almost all on the official WOTC/Hasbro boards). It was pretty sad, especially considering everyone who would be listening to the pitch were D&D players. My guess is that Hasbro tuned the pitch in their standard focus groups, without ever considering that D&D already had a huge and specific following. I will at least claim that the given world is bare-bones because it is supposed to be (and assumed to stay that way). Now go back and play in the dungeon and don't ask any questions about the reason why. If you've never understood the reason for all that 4e hate, I am sure that was a large part of it. The other was that a new version is specifically designed to get you to buy all new books. My AD&D books certainly seemed expensive at the time, but it was possible to collect an entire library of 3.5 books: don't expect them to give up without a fight.
There were also plenty of claims about the importance of skill tests and play testing. Once it shipped a blogger read the skill test rules, and posted the problem parts "be penalized for original thinking" before a update was posted (my guess is that old time D&D players just ignored the rules (mandatory for AD&D) and new players simply figured they didn't understand it.
Because they have not introduced the wizard type that will use a staff implement (or a wand implement, for that matter).
Because they have not introduced the dual-wield fighter into the game (if such a critter even exists in 4E)
Because they have not introduced the mace+ shield battle cleric into the game yet. Seeing a pattern here?
Yes, I'm seeing a pattern of a game that has been "dumbed down" and the flexibility of choice stripped away in favor of cookie-cutter "archetypes" rather than actual classes. Why should there be a specific TYPE of wizard that uses a staff, as opposed to making any wizard able to use one? Why should only a specific TYPE of cleric able to use a mace? Why only a specific TYPE of fighter able to dual wield, etc? Rogues can't use 1h swords, but they CAN use axes? What the hell?
The game artificially limits choices. For no reason other than to say, at some point down the road, "look how many classes we have!" while at the same time putting more work onto themselves by requiring dozens of different item codes, and all the classes just being pigeon-holed variants on the same four base classes.
Why would you want to? It's a change made to make each class more iconic and possibly to try to prevent loot ninjas, though nothing will really help that as long as there is a need button.
More iconic? Really? What's iconic about a wizard with a floating orb following them around, compared to the ICONIC wizard with a staff? Or a cleric with mace+shield? You can't argue that limiting choice allows for more "iconic" characters when those same icons are removed from the characters.
In development?
What do you want? That they not launch the game until every little thing that you can think of is in the game? That they have to play the little "jump through the hoops until I finally find one that you can't jump through" game with you?
Yay for hyperbole. I always love when people resort to this argument. It's so silly.
People act like 3.X was the only true D&D and it isn't, or the 3-book basic D&D set if they want to play the "old-timer" card. It never was. People come from a variety of systems and each has their own favorite for mostly sentimental reasons.
So they make a 4E port and all there is is wah, wah, wah, it's not MY D&D.
No, it's not. Your D&D was played with books and paper and around a table with real people. It's still there if you can find the people to play it with.
Otherwise there is this.
Like it? Don't like it? It ain't changing. It will be tweaked and it will be added to, but it ain't ever going to be "your" D&D. It's going to be this D&D. It's own unique animal.
And if your judgement of a game rests solely upon it measuring up to your perfect memories of what D&D was, all polished over time and all of the imperfections and arguments and hassles filtered out, then you will never find a game that compares.
Actually, for me DDO feels far more D&D-like than this game does. Is it a "perfect port of the p&p rules into mmo format?" Of course not. But it still FEELS like D&D to me. You have choice for your characters. You can pick up weapons and use them, even if you're not proficient. You can MAKE yourself proficient with weapons that aren't traditionally part of your class. Characters aren't bound and gagged and forced into tidy little niches like "you're not a wizard, you're a CONTROL wizard, you have very specific spells and abilities, unlike this OTHER wizard that we'll implement at some vague point in the future". The characters don't feel like they can just stand there letting mobs wail on them while they punch them back, because they have 25,000 hp.
I don't expect any game to be "my D&D". But a game that bears the D&D name should at least FEEL like D&D, you know? This doesn't. This game feels like "fantasy mmo #17378", like I said.
As I said in a post earlier in this thread, a lot of it could have been avoided if they'd just made the classes more flexible from the get-go. But now they're stuck with this rigid system where each class is pigeon-holed into one very narrow, specific "role" rather than allowing for customization within the class. Heck, I can't even pick my stats -- I just get to decide between a small group of 4-5 setups. Why not simply allow people to spend X amount of points on stats, like they actually do in 4e?
And honestly, the argument of "don't like it? tough" is just ridiculous. So you'd rather people NOT voice their opinions on what they feel does and doesn't work in a game? You'd rather the devs just completely ignore the playerbase and do whatever the hell they want, with no input from the people who are paying them to play the game?
I'm glad you find the game to be everything you hoped it would be. For a lot of people it's not. Hence this thread.
depends on the DM i guess,I have players with lv 99 characters for over 12 years of game-play and 100k HP dice pools in my adventures as common things. Then again my gods kinda have HP pools and nullify defenses that they cant event stand 2 rounds against in combat(Yet a lv 1 wise player can beat them go figure). Just saying its not the mechanic of the dice rolls of how many HP it has, you can scale that to achieve any effect you want as long as everything scale with it (I don't think those lv 1 mobs have 1 hit dice otherwise why do i hit in the 100's with a magic missile with unlimited charges). It was scaled into a MMO point but the lore was kept and that is what the game really is.
Yes, I'm seeing a pattern of a game that has been "dumbed down" and the flexibility of choice stripped away in favor of cookie-cutter "archetypes" rather than actual classes. Why should there be a specific TYPE of wizard that uses a staff, as opposed to making any wizard able to use one?
Talk to D&D 4th edition.
It was their idea.
Kind of a refreshing change from 3.X and a million books and bad choices and an ultimately broken game. The WotC optimization boards had no shortage of proof of that.
Even the designers didn't know what they were making. They just knew that they had to crank out more books to sell.
More iconic? Really? What's iconic about a wizard with a floating orb following them around, compared to the ICONIC wizard with a staff?
Again, talk to 4th edition. They have decided that in D&D there would be some wizards that used a staff, while others used wands and others still used an orb.
Yay for hyperbole. I always love when people resort to this argument. It's so silly.
And I think that it's silly when people hold a computer game to an unmeetable standard.
Actually, for me DDO feels far more D&D-like than this game does. Is it a "perfect port of the p&p rules into mmo format?" Of course not. But it still FEELS like D&D to me. You have choice for your characters. You can pick up weapons and use them, even if you're not proficient. You can MAKE yourself proficient with weapons that aren't traditionally part of your class. Characters aren't bound and gagged and forced into tidy little niches like "you're not a wizard, you're a CONTROL wizard, you have very specific spells and abilities, unlike this OTHER wizard that we'll implement at some vague point in the future". The characters don't feel like they can just stand there letting mobs wail on them while they punch them back, because they have 25,000 hp.
HP is just a number. I dabbled with DDO. Fights here and fights there took around the same time, I think. A few kobolds here or a few kobolds there were a few seconds of time.
Having an issue with the numbers seems like another one of those "What else can I act like I hate about this game" things.
DDO gives everyone free HP right off the bat. No problem with that? Would gameplay be improved if a single hit would kill a Wizard?
I don't expect any game to be "my D&D". But a game that bears the D&D name should at least FEEL like D&D, you know? This doesn't. This game feels like "fantasy mmo #17378", like I said.
It either feels like "your" D&D or it doesn't feel like D&D, since "your" D&D is what you think all D&D should feel like.
You have no other frame of reference.
Rather than just play the game and enjoy it or not on it's own merits, you insist that it somehow feel like you are playing "your" D&D which used a different system and involved actual people sitting around a table playing.
Maybe you hate the game, anyway, but don't act like a D&D game should be limited to only what you think it should be. In the last year people have played D&D, AD&D, 2nd edition, 3.X, and 4E, and all used a wide variety of campaign settings including their own, and I am sure that every one of those people felt like what they were doing was the way that D&D "should" feel.
I don't care about the game having the D&D name attached. It's a brand. They have stuck it on comic books from different companies, card games, trading cards, a saturday morning cartoon, and more than a few computer games.
My favorite D&D computer game is going to be one of the older ones to be honest. Why? Because it was "new" and I was younger.
But I don't go around saying DDO or NWO suck because they aren't using the systems that SSI developed for their computer games.
As I said in a post earlier in this thread, a lot of it could have been avoided if they'd just made the classes more flexible from the get-go. But now they're stuck with this rigid system where each class is pigeon-holed into one very narrow, specific "role" rather than allowing for customization within the class.
1) 4E categorizes characters into one of 4 roles- Tank, damage, controller, leader. This game offers players a choice between classes that fill one of those roles. The great weapon fighter might be an abberation, as they are apparently more tank than DPS, but are more DPS-oriented than a guardian fighter. Of course, that could just be one of those 'options' that you claim to be missing.
2) I can fill out my skill tree differently than someone playing the same class. I can choose a different paragon path than someone playing the same class. I can slot different powers on my tray than someone playing the same class.
How is that not customization within a class?
Heck, I can't even pick my stats -- I just get to decide between a small group of 4-5 setups. Why not simply allow people to spend X amount of points on stats, like they actually do in 4e?
Translation: The game won't let me give my wizard an 18 constitution and an 8 intelligence! How dare they?!?!?!?!
You get to choose from a number of different arrays while the game makes sure that every character has at least good stats in those most important to their class.
Maybe "your" D&D saw a lot of people playing dumb wizards, weak fighters, and clerics with no wisdom to speak of, but mine never did.
And honestly, the argument of "don't like it? tough" is just ridiculous. So you'd rather people NOT voice their opinions on what they feel does and doesn't work in a game?
I am not hearing a whole lot of "This works" around these parts. I am hearing a whole lot of "It's not 3.X Kill it and start over!".
You'd rather the devs just completely ignore the playerbase and do whatever the hell they want, with no input from the people who are paying them to play the game?
Nah, listening to the player base is important. At least if the player base is sane and responsible in their suggestions.
This is 4th edition. You have suggestions? They need to come from that understanding.
Again, not seeing suggestions here, just complaints. "This game is based upon 4E and should be based upon 3.X instead" is not a suggestion.
So if you actually have an idea on how to make this game better while using the system that they have in place (or even possibly adding a new system for a particular thing that isn't in the game now) then I absolutely think that you should get those ideas out there.
But if you are just going to complain that they made the game around the 4E philosophy, then no, there isn't much use in posting.
You can if you want to, but no one that matters is listening.
And I think that it's silly when people hold a computer game to an unmeetable standard.
Sorry for the serious snip, but I really wanted to address this point. What unmeetable standard are you referring to? Delivering on the hype? Who wrote the hype? Who insisted that we'd get a "rich D&D experience"? The players? No, the developers. So they set a standard for themselves they couldn't meet, and we're silly for holding them to it? I'm glad I didn't buy the hype, sight unseen, and pay 200 bucks for the founder's pack. I would have felt ripped off. I got plenty of emails insisting that I should, and I've even seen it mentioned that they extended the Founder's Packs to generate more sales. Had I gotten the feel that I was looking for, which doesn't have anything to do with versions, but the feel that I have become accustomed to since PnP, and then on to the more successful versions of CRPGs that bear the D&D name, I might be more inclined to spend that money, or some of it anyway. At this stage, no, I don't feel it.
I have some friends from previous games, and I'll play around at the game, and chat/play with them as I progress, but I'm doing so with the illusion that D&D might as well not be in any of this game's literature. "But it's 4e" doesn't carry a lot of weight when they threw most of those rules out the window to facilitate this game. The heavy emphasis on PvP shows me exactly why: They were aiming for a different crowd than the "hardcore" D&D players. That's fine, apparently there's a split in the D&D community, the PnP based crowd, about 4e, and they knew they'd have to broaden their spectrum to bring in enough people to make it feasible. That's fine too. The unmeetable standard that I'm holding them to is delivering what they promised.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
P.S. for all you haters, tell me, are the stories for Drizzt, or Tasslehoff Burrfoot not D&D because they don't have mechanics and are not actually in the PnP game? At what point do rules actually dictate what D&D is more than setting and theme?
Caramon 8th Lvl fighter Human
STR18/63 WIS 10 Con 17 INT 12 DEX 11 CHR 15 Align LG HP 52
I know this cause I never took the Character Card out of my Wallet after GenCon08. The entire first trilogy of DragonLance books were played on TT before they were written into a book.
You may or may not want to be a Mage in a DragonLance TT RPG cause your power waxes and wains according to the moons. This is defined in the DragonLance setting Players Guide.
Drrz't was a book Supporting character before becoming a PnP NPC and hero of renown in the Forgotten Realms.
Basically my rant was for all the old-school D&D types that know what THAC0 is and remember when elf was a CLASS rather than a race.
I started with AD&D.
If you think D&D is about THAC0 and races as classes and not about Dungeons with Dragons in it I sugest you actually step back and remember what captured your mind when you first starting D&D.
A cleric without melee combat ? That is so not D&D.
Except it's a perfectly playable type of Cleric on the edition they are trying to evoke.
I'll even go ahead and say I do not particulary care for said archetype, but it is there.
Considering there is a precedent for getting more than just one type, we might just get the classic Cleric at a later time.
As fun as NW is, I have to agree. It does not feel like DnD. Then again, it based upon the 4e rules, which really only resemble DnD in name. There's a reason that Wizards started on 5e so **** quickly. >.>
I think it is impossible to reconcile roleplaying PvE and fair competitive PvP.
It will only leave everybody unsatisfied.
D&D promises roleplaying in a fantasy world.
I am quite disappointed by the lack of classes and even more so, by the narrow definition of the classes.
The 16 (? can not check because maintenance at Ascension day !! WTF) politically correct deities show very well the lacking love and enthusiasm of the developers.
It would take about 2 hours of work to put in at least 50 deities and the possiblity to invent your own.
Regarding the character spec, I have specced wrongly because NWO does not respect D&D in the slightest.
Unless you have a system like The Secret World, there should be much better documentation about what character development and functionality you can expect in NWO.
And for those uninterested in the character (but why play an RPG then ?), give an automatic level up option.
DDOs level cap was 10 when they started, it's 25, soon to be 28, now.
They started with 9 classes and 5 races (iirc) and now have 13 classes 8 races.
So I expect NWO to grow.
But the thing with DDO is that it is quite flexible.
There have been effective and popular builds that are very unconventional.
Like sorcerer's who tank with a greatsword, clerics who specialize in unarmed combat, barbarian trappers, bard main healers, bard and cleric who use bows exclusively, artificers and favored souls who melee with two-handed weapons. These aren't gimp, flavor builds either. people found a way to make them work.
By allowing a little freedom with the basic tools you can make some really fun, head-scratcher builds.
But PvP is a problem.
In DDO you can make a barcher (bard/archer) that can sing a song that will freeze a single mob in place and then take them down with arrows.
That's fine in PvE but in the PvP pits it creates issues because there is simply nothing your opponent can do about it.
So yeah, with all of those tools you can make a build that can glitch-fight all comers so that won't work as well in a game that focuses n PvP.
But a little bit of the DDO thing would be awesome.
The other problem with DDO that NWO maybe looking to avoid is the learning curve.
New players in DDO make these builds, I tell you, that are just marvels of gimplitude.
You can easily break your character with some poor choices and end up with a train wreck build.
So NWO maybe be going for simplicity and a streamlined building process that makes it so no choice will totally kill you.
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danglewoodMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited May 2013
mithrosnomore sums it up well. I think it's perfectly fine to not like the game if it isn't what you want it to be, but you can't blame anyone for not making a game for you. There are a lot of us out here who have our own unique D&D experiences and expectations. To me, D&D is about storytelling, and the mechanics are just a means to an end. I like the mechanics they have in this game, and even if I didn't like the quests, which I do, there's always the Foundry, which has unlimited potential for storytelling.
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pentegarnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Not sure what the OP is complaining about wanting THAC0. 'THAC0 doesn't translate well on any computer' said every D&D game ever made pre 1998.
If you want a D&D game where elf is still a class there's that Dungeon's and Dragon's game on the Sega Genesis. (though why anyone wants to play the old basic D&D where the demi-human races were their class is beyond me. That was total anti customization, which is why you can get the basic starter D&D kit used for a couple bucks, nobody wanted it.)
This is my impression so far of Neverwinter Online...
While the game sports the name/logo of Dungeons and Dragons, the game does not have the same feel as DnD. It has the same feel as all the other MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, Everquest, Wizardry Online, Ragnarok Series, Conan the Barbarian, etc. where the game is set in a fantasy world. The Lore/History are different but when it comes down to it...these games are the same.
Still, the game is nicely done. The Foundry brings a lot of potential for new and unique content. But if people come here expecting this game to be Dungeons and Dragons, they will be disappointed. This game is Free to Play right now so it is a nice break from the other games...something new to explore.
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pentegarnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think it is impossible to reconcile roleplaying PvE and fair competitive PvP.
It will only leave everybody unsatisfied.
Competitive PvP play in D&D or AD&D... Strange. These titles are PvE(or PvDM). There should be no attempt to make it into a PvP game! I have no interest in fighting other Adventuring Parties. I want to play through a "Module" an beat the bad guy. Then move on and play the next Module. I want to team up with my family and friends who are playing and slay monsters by the cart load! My ego ends at the idea of seeing if I am a better player then say Dadeleviathan! I don't care, I would rather adventure with him than against him. Cause I am cursed with a Heroes mentality.
Dade... Picked your name cause it was the first one I saw.:cool:
ok. I know D&D only from other video games and from checking the 4e rules just for NWO.
My interest in D&D is the lore and decent character variety.
Actually, I could not care less about the ruleset.
But NWO was advertised as D&D game by D&D fans for D&D fans.
You must agree that the game proves to be quite unexpected.
We are here to deplore our shattered expectations. There is only one other D&D game out there.
I started with AD&D.
If you think D&D is about THAC0 and races as classes and not about Dungeons with Dragons in it I sugest you actually step back and remember what captured your mind when you first starting D&D.
Except it's a perfectly playable type of Cleric on the edition they are trying to evoke.
I'll even go ahead and say I do not particulary care for said archetype, but it is there.
Considering there is a precedent for getting more than just one type, we might just get the classic Cleric at a later time.
"Wah, it's not AD&D QQ"
It's not based on that, it's based on 4E. Which is an entirely different game altogether, which arguably makes more sense than the old material anyway. I mean, seriously? Elf as a class? I really don't think we're missing out on much there, that's just stupid. This is a QQ based on nothing but nostalgia.
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bpphantomMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Nope. I enjoy it as well. I like the boxed sets, AD&D, 2nd Ed, 3rd Ed, 3.5, 4th... I'm even willing to hope that Next gets more streamlined before launch.
- bpphantom
Grace, Tiefling Devoted Cleric
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. Then leave the rest to Batman."
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You are not. It's by far the best D&D, and wholly in line with its history, and Gary's original vision. Don't let the internet echo chambers get you down.
Well looking at the 4th Ed weapon damage list...
...
This game is not using it! My Great sword is doing something like 27-38 damage v the 1d10 for 4th Ed D&D rules.
Neverwinter is not quacking like a duck. I saw a great sword for sale that boasted 400-600 damage!!! Since when did armor become Level specific to D&D? Again this is not walking like a duck!
A great sword IF use in a D&D game, should do D&D scale damage. No have different damage amounts for different level characters. That isn't how D&D works.
Now is it a fun game? So far yeah, I like it. It just isn't D&D.
I have loved every edition, inc 4e. Each has merits. I'm not a huge fan of Pathfinder since they made 3.5 even more rules intensive (the biggest detriment to D&D was the overabundance of rules and everything being quantified, rather than the DM pulling in favor of fun, we now have hours of ruleslawyering and 10 minutes of hack and slash, and next to no roleplaying)
When he gets to Heaven To Saint Peter he will say, "Hand me 4d6. Lets roll the dice and play!"
I'm accepting that this game is based on 4th ed D&D. Very loosely based, as it had to be adapted to mmo play.
Original PnP game were never balanced for this kind of environment. Truth be told, DDO is also not an exact represetation of 3rd ed D&D.
There is not enough classes, including my ever favorite melee cleric from 3.x ed and probably they should be added at some point (but then there is one question - how to make them different enough from paladins, for example, so both classes may be added?).
4th edition was a big shock for many players as it was completely different than a rather gradual ugrade (or downgrade, ymmv) from 2dn ed -> 3rd ed -> 3.5 ed. But previous editions are discontinued by WotC and nobody should be expecting them in a modern game made on WoTC licence.
Really, there is no point in complaining that NW is not based on discontinued rulesets. It was never hinted that NW will be a 3rd edition game. There are stil NWN1 and NWN2 shards for 3rd ed based gameplay.
Edit:
Or people may wait for Pathfinder mmo, but I'm sure it will not be an exact representation of PnP rules as well. Mmos have different requirements than cooperative rpgs.
Comments
Got a link? That is all entirely unlike how 4E actually is (there's a lot of build freedom, and the DM is expected to build a world due to the very bare-bones default setting), and that sounds like an absurd way to pitch it.
DDO PvP is hidden entirely in the basement of the Lobster for a reason. It is barely part of the game, the devs could care less about balancing for it, and nothing you do in those pits has any meaning outside of the Lobster.
The ability to make a gimp is a completely different issue in DDO. In fact, Turbine pushes new player hard to make gimps, starting with the suggested paths, which vary between "insta gimp that will require a huge number of feat swaps and possibly a lesser resurrection" to "starts almost right, but will eventually be gimped to the point a lesser resurrection will be needed to fix". Pretty much expect everything you read from Turbine to give you the wrong idea on how to build a character.
Some things to note: that melee sorcerer (16 sorcerer/2 paladin/2 monk?) build actually worked for a very long time (I think it has been replaced by an artificer build called the juggernaut). Other off the wall builds can work with a fairly decent knowledge of the game or other tricks to keep up, but don't expect to play in epic elite (or maybe even epic hard). There used to be entire guilds based on building G.I.M.P (Get Into Multiclass Play) who chose their classes randomly (gimp being the operative word).
On of my favorite character builds was my "zerg to unlock drow" build. At the time, I wanted to experiment with both permadeath and TWF drow paladin builds. Since I had all my character slots full on my home server (Orien, which I had long since unlocked 32 pt builds) I decided to unlock drow on Thelanis. I then built a max strength, 14 int, 14 con human [didn't have WF yet] wizard (everything else dumped). The wizard then used a greataxe to chop up all foes to roughly level 7 (using a great axe with normal dumped strength(a minimum of 10 strength is recommended due to encumberance and strength draining spells) was standard practice in those days). All [both] level increases went into intelligence (since I was shifting from melee to spells as he leveled), but he remained a wizard missing 4 points of intelligence. At 7th level he could learn firewall and went back through previous levels, running on elite and racking up all favor needed for drow (and managed to score level 8). Some time after free LRs became available I've since respeced him to a standard wizard (he was having lots of trouble hitting by level 6), but I sometimes miss my melee-wizard.
Almost all of the games shortfalls could be over looked if the class system was more complex. Simplifying the class system has destroyed the heart of the Forgotten Realms experience. It has to be said this game looks doomed, I cant see how IGN won't completely trash this game for not being a closer relation to NWN.
(btw Its not micro transaction when its not a micro amount of money)
If by some miracle they redesign the classes to NWN style please come visit me and let me know
I think they removed it shortly after the launch (it was almost all on the official WOTC/Hasbro boards). It was pretty sad, especially considering everyone who would be listening to the pitch were D&D players. My guess is that Hasbro tuned the pitch in their standard focus groups, without ever considering that D&D already had a huge and specific following. I will at least claim that the given world is bare-bones because it is supposed to be (and assumed to stay that way). Now go back and play in the dungeon and don't ask any questions about the reason why. If you've never understood the reason for all that 4e hate, I am sure that was a large part of it. The other was that a new version is specifically designed to get you to buy all new books. My AD&D books certainly seemed expensive at the time, but it was possible to collect an entire library of 3.5 books: don't expect them to give up without a fight.
There were also plenty of claims about the importance of skill tests and play testing. Once it shipped a blogger read the skill test rules, and posted the problem parts "be penalized for original thinking" before a update was posted (my guess is that old time D&D players just ignored the rules (mandatory for AD&D) and new players simply figured they didn't understand it.
Yes, I'm seeing a pattern of a game that has been "dumbed down" and the flexibility of choice stripped away in favor of cookie-cutter "archetypes" rather than actual classes. Why should there be a specific TYPE of wizard that uses a staff, as opposed to making any wizard able to use one? Why should only a specific TYPE of cleric able to use a mace? Why only a specific TYPE of fighter able to dual wield, etc? Rogues can't use 1h swords, but they CAN use axes? What the hell?
The game artificially limits choices. For no reason other than to say, at some point down the road, "look how many classes we have!" while at the same time putting more work onto themselves by requiring dozens of different item codes, and all the classes just being pigeon-holed variants on the same four base classes.
More iconic? Really? What's iconic about a wizard with a floating orb following them around, compared to the ICONIC wizard with a staff? Or a cleric with mace+shield? You can't argue that limiting choice allows for more "iconic" characters when those same icons are removed from the characters.
Yay for hyperbole. I always love when people resort to this argument. It's so silly.
Actually, for me DDO feels far more D&D-like than this game does. Is it a "perfect port of the p&p rules into mmo format?" Of course not. But it still FEELS like D&D to me. You have choice for your characters. You can pick up weapons and use them, even if you're not proficient. You can MAKE yourself proficient with weapons that aren't traditionally part of your class. Characters aren't bound and gagged and forced into tidy little niches like "you're not a wizard, you're a CONTROL wizard, you have very specific spells and abilities, unlike this OTHER wizard that we'll implement at some vague point in the future". The characters don't feel like they can just stand there letting mobs wail on them while they punch them back, because they have 25,000 hp.
I don't expect any game to be "my D&D". But a game that bears the D&D name should at least FEEL like D&D, you know? This doesn't. This game feels like "fantasy mmo #17378", like I said.
As I said in a post earlier in this thread, a lot of it could have been avoided if they'd just made the classes more flexible from the get-go. But now they're stuck with this rigid system where each class is pigeon-holed into one very narrow, specific "role" rather than allowing for customization within the class. Heck, I can't even pick my stats -- I just get to decide between a small group of 4-5 setups. Why not simply allow people to spend X amount of points on stats, like they actually do in 4e?
And honestly, the argument of "don't like it? tough" is just ridiculous. So you'd rather people NOT voice their opinions on what they feel does and doesn't work in a game? You'd rather the devs just completely ignore the playerbase and do whatever the hell they want, with no input from the people who are paying them to play the game?
I'm glad you find the game to be everything you hoped it would be. For a lot of people it's not. Hence this thread.
Talk to D&D 4th edition.
It was their idea.
Kind of a refreshing change from 3.X and a million books and bad choices and an ultimately broken game. The WotC optimization boards had no shortage of proof of that.
Even the designers didn't know what they were making. They just knew that they had to crank out more books to sell.
Again, talk to 4th edition. They have decided that in D&D there would be some wizards that used a staff, while others used wands and others still used an orb.
And I think that it's silly when people hold a computer game to an unmeetable standard.
HP is just a number. I dabbled with DDO. Fights here and fights there took around the same time, I think. A few kobolds here or a few kobolds there were a few seconds of time.
Having an issue with the numbers seems like another one of those "What else can I act like I hate about this game" things.
DDO gives everyone free HP right off the bat. No problem with that? Would gameplay be improved if a single hit would kill a Wizard?
It either feels like "your" D&D or it doesn't feel like D&D, since "your" D&D is what you think all D&D should feel like.
You have no other frame of reference.
Rather than just play the game and enjoy it or not on it's own merits, you insist that it somehow feel like you are playing "your" D&D which used a different system and involved actual people sitting around a table playing.
Maybe you hate the game, anyway, but don't act like a D&D game should be limited to only what you think it should be. In the last year people have played D&D, AD&D, 2nd edition, 3.X, and 4E, and all used a wide variety of campaign settings including their own, and I am sure that every one of those people felt like what they were doing was the way that D&D "should" feel.
I don't care about the game having the D&D name attached. It's a brand. They have stuck it on comic books from different companies, card games, trading cards, a saturday morning cartoon, and more than a few computer games.
My favorite D&D computer game is going to be one of the older ones to be honest. Why? Because it was "new" and I was younger.
But I don't go around saying DDO or NWO suck because they aren't using the systems that SSI developed for their computer games.
1) 4E categorizes characters into one of 4 roles- Tank, damage, controller, leader. This game offers players a choice between classes that fill one of those roles. The great weapon fighter might be an abberation, as they are apparently more tank than DPS, but are more DPS-oriented than a guardian fighter. Of course, that could just be one of those 'options' that you claim to be missing.
2) I can fill out my skill tree differently than someone playing the same class. I can choose a different paragon path than someone playing the same class. I can slot different powers on my tray than someone playing the same class.
How is that not customization within a class?
Translation: The game won't let me give my wizard an 18 constitution and an 8 intelligence! How dare they?!?!?!?!
You get to choose from a number of different arrays while the game makes sure that every character has at least good stats in those most important to their class.
Maybe "your" D&D saw a lot of people playing dumb wizards, weak fighters, and clerics with no wisdom to speak of, but mine never did.
I am not hearing a whole lot of "This works" around these parts. I am hearing a whole lot of "It's not 3.X Kill it and start over!".
Nah, listening to the player base is important. At least if the player base is sane and responsible in their suggestions.
This is 4th edition. You have suggestions? They need to come from that understanding.
Again, not seeing suggestions here, just complaints. "This game is based upon 4E and should be based upon 3.X instead" is not a suggestion.
So if you actually have an idea on how to make this game better while using the system that they have in place (or even possibly adding a new system for a particular thing that isn't in the game now) then I absolutely think that you should get those ideas out there.
But if you are just going to complain that they made the game around the 4E philosophy, then no, there isn't much use in posting.
You can if you want to, but no one that matters is listening.
My oh my.
Here they all come.
Ghallanda denizens are barred from civilized society.
Back to your hole with you.
;-D
Or you can stop posting stupid replies that in no way add anything helpful to the conversation. Tard
Sorry for the serious snip, but I really wanted to address this point. What unmeetable standard are you referring to? Delivering on the hype? Who wrote the hype? Who insisted that we'd get a "rich D&D experience"? The players? No, the developers. So they set a standard for themselves they couldn't meet, and we're silly for holding them to it? I'm glad I didn't buy the hype, sight unseen, and pay 200 bucks for the founder's pack. I would have felt ripped off. I got plenty of emails insisting that I should, and I've even seen it mentioned that they extended the Founder's Packs to generate more sales. Had I gotten the feel that I was looking for, which doesn't have anything to do with versions, but the feel that I have become accustomed to since PnP, and then on to the more successful versions of CRPGs that bear the D&D name, I might be more inclined to spend that money, or some of it anyway. At this stage, no, I don't feel it.
I have some friends from previous games, and I'll play around at the game, and chat/play with them as I progress, but I'm doing so with the illusion that D&D might as well not be in any of this game's literature. "But it's 4e" doesn't carry a lot of weight when they threw most of those rules out the window to facilitate this game. The heavy emphasis on PvP shows me exactly why: They were aiming for a different crowd than the "hardcore" D&D players. That's fine, apparently there's a split in the D&D community, the PnP based crowd, about 4e, and they knew they'd have to broaden their spectrum to bring in enough people to make it feasible. That's fine too. The unmeetable standard that I'm holding them to is delivering what they promised.
I don't see how 4e is that much different. There are certainly plenty of class books that have usually better powers than the basic books.
That was game breaking for me. Maybe I come back what I can play it.
I guess cryptic uses D&D just for the world lore (at least this is good) and to distinguish itself from most other MMO.
Such rudeness sir!
Actually that's probably about right, considering I played there.
Anywho you, robert and a few others keep making stellar points. I think they're lost on most people here though.
STR18/63 WIS 10 Con 17 INT 12 DEX 11 CHR 15 Align LG HP 52
I know this cause I never took the Character Card out of my Wallet after GenCon08. The entire first trilogy of DragonLance books were played on TT before they were written into a book.
You may or may not want to be a Mage in a DragonLance TT RPG cause your power waxes and wains according to the moons. This is defined in the DragonLance setting Players Guide.
Drrz't was a book Supporting character before becoming a PnP NPC and hero of renown in the Forgotten Realms.
Know your facts.
I started with AD&D.
If you think D&D is about THAC0 and races as classes and not about Dungeons with Dragons in it I sugest you actually step back and remember what captured your mind when you first starting D&D.
Except it's a perfectly playable type of Cleric on the edition they are trying to evoke.
I'll even go ahead and say I do not particulary care for said archetype, but it is there.
Considering there is a precedent for getting more than just one type, we might just get the classic Cleric at a later time.
It will only leave everybody unsatisfied.
D&D promises roleplaying in a fantasy world.
I am quite disappointed by the lack of classes and even more so, by the narrow definition of the classes.
The 16 (? can not check because maintenance at Ascension day !! WTF) politically correct deities show very well the lacking love and enthusiasm of the developers.
It would take about 2 hours of work to put in at least 50 deities and the possiblity to invent your own.
Regarding the character spec, I have specced wrongly because NWO does not respect D&D in the slightest.
Unless you have a system like The Secret World, there should be much better documentation about what character development and functionality you can expect in NWO.
And for those uninterested in the character (but why play an RPG then ?), give an automatic level up option.
If you want a D&D game where elf is still a class there's that Dungeon's and Dragon's game on the Sega Genesis. (though why anyone wants to play the old basic D&D where the demi-human races were their class is beyond me. That was total anti customization, which is why you can get the basic starter D&D kit used for a couple bucks, nobody wanted it.)
While the game sports the name/logo of Dungeons and Dragons, the game does not have the same feel as DnD. It has the same feel as all the other MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, Everquest, Wizardry Online, Ragnarok Series, Conan the Barbarian, etc. where the game is set in a fantasy world. The Lore/History are different but when it comes down to it...these games are the same.
Still, the game is nicely done. The Foundry brings a lot of potential for new and unique content. But if people come here expecting this game to be Dungeons and Dragons, they will be disappointed. This game is Free to Play right now so it is a nice break from the other games...something new to explore.
What if you have them fold the pizza in half though? Then you'd have the biggest taco there!
EDIT: also, the pizza hut/taco bell dual fast food restaurant has tacos :P
Dade... Picked your name cause it was the first one I saw.:cool:
My interest in D&D is the lore and decent character variety.
Actually, I could not care less about the ruleset.
But NWO was advertised as D&D game by D&D fans for D&D fans.
You must agree that the game proves to be quite unexpected.
We are here to deplore our shattered expectations. There is only one other D&D game out there.
It's not based on that, it's based on 4E. Which is an entirely different game altogether, which arguably makes more sense than the old material anyway. I mean, seriously? Elf as a class? I really don't think we're missing out on much there, that's just stupid. This is a QQ based on nothing but nostalgia.
Nope. I enjoy it as well. I like the boxed sets, AD&D, 2nd Ed, 3rd Ed, 3.5, 4th... I'm even willing to hope that Next gets more streamlined before launch.
Grace, Tiefling Devoted Cleric
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are. Then leave the rest to Batman."
You are not. It's by far the best D&D, and wholly in line with its history, and Gary's original vision. Don't let the internet echo chambers get you down.
...
This game is not using it! My Great sword is doing something like 27-38 damage v the 1d10 for 4th Ed D&D rules.
Neverwinter is not quacking like a duck. I saw a great sword for sale that boasted 400-600 damage!!! Since when did armor become Level specific to D&D? Again this is not walking like a duck!
A great sword IF use in a D&D game, should do D&D scale damage. No have different damage amounts for different level characters. That isn't how D&D works.
Now is it a fun game? So far yeah, I like it. It just isn't D&D.
I have loved every edition, inc 4e. Each has merits. I'm not a huge fan of Pathfinder since they made 3.5 even more rules intensive (the biggest detriment to D&D was the overabundance of rules and everything being quantified, rather than the DM pulling in favor of fun, we now have hours of ruleslawyering and 10 minutes of hack and slash, and next to no roleplaying)
Original PnP game were never balanced for this kind of environment. Truth be told, DDO is also not an exact represetation of 3rd ed D&D.
There is not enough classes, including my ever favorite melee cleric from 3.x ed and probably they should be added at some point (but then there is one question - how to make them different enough from paladins, for example, so both classes may be added?).
4th edition was a big shock for many players as it was completely different than a rather gradual ugrade (or downgrade, ymmv) from 2dn ed -> 3rd ed -> 3.5 ed. But previous editions are discontinued by WotC and nobody should be expecting them in a modern game made on WoTC licence.
Really, there is no point in complaining that NW is not based on discontinued rulesets. It was never hinted that NW will be a 3rd edition game. There are stil NWN1 and NWN2 shards for 3rd ed based gameplay.
Edit:
Or people may wait for Pathfinder mmo, but I'm sure it will not be an exact representation of PnP rules as well. Mmos have different requirements than cooperative rpgs.