Who the hell cares about D&D in 2013? Why are you even bringing up this argument? Can you weirdo role player please just leave the 90's and actually wake up and smell the roses, no one cares about that stuff anymore and thank goodness for that, no one cares if this has any D&D into it or pokemon stuff into it, all we care is that it's FUN... yes O M G what a evil word to say, it's a anti-rp word.. I know FUN Z-O-M-G!
Actually it's not way off base, this is the exact argument I'm trying to make.
I understand your point and your point is valid.
It's just a completely different argument than the one I'm reading in this thread. No offense intended.
People are making suggestions about apples and folks are chiming in about oranges.
What I think most are saying, at least what I'm saying, is that relatively small changes like being able to pick what weapon you put in your hand or choose between fireball and charm monster or multi-classing would make the game feel more D&D like for them.
Then folks are bringing up spell failure percentage and turn based systems and what-not.
No one is talking about that.
No one, that I have read, is asking for an exact replica of their favorite addition of he books.
People just seem to be making a few simple suggestions that they think will make the game feel more "right".
Maybe the problem is that the OPs thread title is so dramatic and overblown. idk.
Anyway, if anyone else has any points they would like to make about Initiative Rolls and Dungeon Master Screens please ask yourself if anyone is asking for that.
What I think most are saying, at least what I'm saying, is that relatively small changes like being able to pick what weapon you put in your hand or choose between fireball and charm monster or multi-classing would make the game feel more D&D like for them.
Yea I do have to totally agree with this. Being the action-based game it is, there would be nothing wrong with different weapon choices or spell paths to choose from. Multiclassing could even be as simple as using the same combat animations with a Fighter/Wizard as the current warriors and wizards use (although slightly less effective if multiclassed). Although I really don't think we'll ever see multiclassing in this game, the promise of additional Paragon paths does show a lot of promise.
But I can guarantee you that you never see a PC gamer walk into a D&D shop/gaming session and complain about everyone using pen and paper.
Nobody is complaining about this being a video game. Your last post made more sense. People should not expect this be be an exact replica of D&D Pnp and I'd agree with that (action vs turn based seems the primary difference driver to me). What you originally said, however, indicated that people who play D&D Pnp are complaining that this is a video game rather than literally pencil and paper.
Again, read your original post. "compain about everyone using pen and paper" That statement has nothing to do with rules, just the medium for playing. People who play D&D and are complaining about this game are not complaining about the fact that it is a video game rather than not a video game. You've since cleared up your position.
Why do you think classes in 4E are divided up into roles like Defender/Striker/Controller/Leader?
The Tank/DPS/Healer trinity has existed since at least 2e AD&D. The fact that nobody wants to be the healer predates the existence of MMOs as well. That effectively refutes the entirety of your post.
Our group battle tested 4e for about a year before it came out, and the people I was providing feedback to were DELIGHTED to hear that it looked like an MMO on paper, because the entire marketing goal of the game was to create an entity that the current generation of MMO gamers could relate to.
As far as having nothing to do with MMOs - 4E combat plays like Gauntlet back in the 80s with better graphics. Each class has a few abilities they can spam plus a few they can use with far longer cooldowns and one they can use with a HUGE cooldown.
Frankly, I think your group is terrible at reviewing. That comparison seems entirely based around the idea of cooldowns, while completely ignoring how the actual game is played.
Heck, it's not even a very good comparison. 4E's "cooldowns" are all about resource management. That's almost never the case in MMOs where you just fire off everything in your rotation. Even in NWO our "Encounter Powers" are used more than once an encounter, and our "Daily Powers" are used more than once per rest. The logistics aspect is completely missing.
If you've played 4E extensively then you should know combat revolves around a grid (and they even use squares as the standard of measurement!), and the gameplay primarily involves taking turns positioning and then picking one Power out of your list. That pretty much exactly describes the entire Turn Based Strategy genre, and bear zero resemblance to MMO gameplay - including MMOs like DDO or NWO.
Has no one in your group ever played something like Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Tactics, Jagged Alliance, Fantasy General, X-Com, or Advance War?
(action vs turn based seems the primary difference driver to me)
That is exactly why "4E is like an MMO" sounds so stupid to me. Table-top D&D games play like a miniature wargame with roleplaying (often without actual miniatures). 4E stuck everyone into squares and then gave everyone a set of choices, making it even closer to Turn Based Tactical games. None of that sounds even vaguely like how any MMO plays.
Actually, what I was referring to there was how ppl waltz right into a forum (for a video game) and complain it's not a direct translation from pen and paper. As a person who has grown up with pen & paper D&D, I can see what the complaint is about but it just holds no relevance in a forum for video games.
So how are you gonna make a fps style action-based combat game that also makes you wait your turn? I, personally, enjoy the fresh take on the action and am glad to have a 'live action' version of the D&D ruleset. And yes, it does follow D&D rules just not the old and outdated ruleset from over 10 years ago.
So, what exactly is it you are saying I don't get? Because truth be told, I'd wager I probably understood more about the D&D history and ruleset than you before you were born.
Considering I don't believe this game feels much like D&D, and I'll be 50 next week, I'll take that bet. Other than a couple of months about 10 years ago, I haven't touched PnP D&D. I have, however, played NWN, BG, BG 2, IWD 1 and 2, DDO etc, hell, I even tried ToEE, and turn based just wasn't my cup of tea. However, the one thing all of those games had that this one lacks is the feel. We literally had what would be the equivalent of PnP sessions in NWN, only we didn't have to roll dice, the game did it for us, and I didn't have to clean the house the next day. So tell me, I want to play as a ranged rogue, where's that option? I can roll one right now in DDO. Does 4e not allow for ranged rogues? Where's my druid? Where's my Favored Soul? In fact, where are about 90% of the classes?
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
Andy Collins, one of the 4e developers explicitly states that 4e was influenced by mmorpgs. Why you ask? If you read the article they imagined 4e though DDi having a strong virtual presence with online table tops, which as the brand grew would eventually lead up to a full mmorpg, again based on 4e.
Now that is not to say that 4e was an abomination, but it is very clearly different from the direction of previous editions with a much more super-hero limited choice orientation, and should have been released as an alternative edition rather than a replacement.
Andy Collins, one of the 4e developers explicitly states that 4e was influenced by mmorpgs. Why you ask? If you read the article they imagined 4e though DDi having a strong virtual presence with online table tops, which as the brand grew would eventually lead up to a full mmorpg, again based on 4e.
I just read that article. None of that actually contradicts me in any way, though perhaps I should have modified my statement with "beyond the superficial elements common in most fantasy RPGs".
4E's gameplay and mechanics have less in common with the gameplay and mechanics of the MMORPG genre than the TBS genre. DDI and the VTT (so sad this never came to fruition) support that. The only thing vaguely related to MMOs is the influence statement and the fact that they want to make money from a 4E MMO.
We are in fact currently on the forum for the official "4E MMO", which hardly resembles the actual 4E in gameplay, therefore countering any argument that could have been made based on that last point.
So the only thing that addresses my stance is Andy Collins' statement: "As professional game designers, we look at all games for lessons," he said last year. "Certainly, the lessons we learn from online games are going to be the most obvious ones because they have a lot of people familiar with the sources, but there's also lessons about turn management from European board games, interface ideas from card games."
A vague statement which hardly contradicts my point - that 4E plays nothing like any MMO, including DDO and NWO.
Considering I don't believe this game feels much like D&D, and I'll be 50 next week, I'll take that bet. Other than a couple of months about 10 years ago, I haven't touched PnP D&D. I have, however, played NWN, BG, BG 2, IWD 1 and 2, DDO etc, hell, I even tried ToEE, and turn based just wasn't my cup of tea. However, the one thing all of those games had that this one lacks is the feel. We literally had what would be the equivalent of PnP sessions in NWN, only we didn't have to roll dice, the game did it for us, and I didn't have to clean the house the next day. So tell me, I want to play as a ranged rogue, where's that option? I can roll one right now in DDO. Does 4e not allow for ranged rogues? Where's my druid? Where's my Favored Soul? In fact, where are about 90% of the classes?
I'm 46 and have been playing D&D since 1978. This game feels more like D&D than most all of the 3.5ed stuff did. That rule set felt like it was all about spreadsheets and min/max. To me, that is not what D&D is all about.
4ed feels closer to the experience 1ed offered than 3/3.5, to me.
Note that DDO didn't launch with many classes either. Where was the shapeshifting druid in DDO for the past several years? How about the monk? If the 3.5ed rule set is how you define D&D then this game probably won't satisfy you, but please don't tell me it's not D&D because it doesn't work for you because it feels like D&D to me.
OMG, we're a bunch of cranky old geezers here. Now the pups will be telling us to get off their lawn.
See you all in game. I'm the gimp Guardian Fighter who keeps dying. My son makes fun of me for being a "****". I'm not sure what that is yet. Dang kids.
I'm 46 and have been playing D&D since 1978. This game feels more like D&D than most all of the 3.5ed stuff did. That rule set felt like it was all about spreadsheets and min/max. To me, that is not what D&D is all about.
4ed feels closer to the experience 1ed offered than 3/3.5, to me.
Note that DDO didn't launch with many classes either. Where was the shapeshifting druid in DDO for the past several years? How about the monk? If the 3.5ed rule set is how you define D&D then this game probably won't satisfy you, but please don't tell me it's not D&D because it doesn't work for you because it feels like D&D to me.
That's absolutely correct though. DDO did lack some of those classes initially, and I'm not sure it has all of them yet, with Druid being the last addition to the game. However, I can equip a bow as a rogue, and shoot stuff if I have to. Base classes weren't nerfed in the name of whatever the name of they are nerfed here for. Only one type of mage, really? Only 2 variations of fighter, only one type of rogue/cleric? But this is just the tip of the iceberg to me; the rest lies in other things that are missing, that I have been assured still exist in actual rules, and can be implemented here quite easily, evidently, since they have been implemented on engines as primitive as the Infinity Engine from BG fame. The character models remind me heavily of NWN 2, and the mechanics are possible in the aurora engine, but they can't implement search/spot? We don't have to worry about saves, or be able to make saves? Did they take this out of 4e too, or was it just not implemented.
There's more, but I'll leave it off. The game is fun enough, for now. That's not my issue. My issue is "But this is D&D" in one topic, and "it's not D&D" in another from people that want to defend the game for what it is, which to me is a third person shooter with sword and sorcery instead of guns. Playing this reminds me more of playing Mass Effect than D&D, and that's what I'm talking about. They didn't implement all the rules, or even many of them. They didn't implement the mechanics involved with the rules. They made a pretty 3rd person shooter. I'm having fun with it, and will likely have some more. But so far, this game hasn't taken hold of me and made me want to invest a lot of money in staying over the long haul, yet.
When I'm sitting here playing this, and have the music from Dragon Age going through my head instead of the music from here, I know I'm not hooked yet. I wasn't looking for D&D when I played Dragon Age, so it's feel didn't bother me, it wasn't advertised to be D&D. This game was. I expected more of that feel, and I'm not getting it. You can assure me it's D&D all you like, and I can appreciate that to you it does. That's not my issue. My issue, as slight as it may be, is that it doesn't feel like D&D to me. Even the base classes that are represented are stripped to bare bones.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
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delgatto42Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 135Bounty Hunter
edited May 2013
Anyone else see the iroy in the idea that "more customiation is better" then turning around and saying "elf was a class not a race"
So if you wanted to play elf, you got exactly 1 option on what to do.
lets go through some 2.0 and before stuff.
Roll 3d6 for stats, what you roll determines what you can play. You don't get to pick where stats go, you are forced into specific classes based on stats. yeah, thats more customization for you, less options at chargen = more options overall.
unless you play with nonweapon proficiencies (Aka Feats), and expanded weapon proficiency rules, your class got a very narrow scope of weapons and armor available to be used. With said rules in place, you saw even less builds because everyone specialized in certian weapons and pitched the rest. BTW everyone running ******* swords or darts because they might be abused one way or the other, means that you have less real viable choices anyway. those are called fake choices. If your given the option of 3d6 damage, and 4d6 damage, and all other things are equal, you be picking the 4d6 option every time. the 3d6 option is a fake option.
the game is also incredibly turn based. When i say that, we are talking hours for 1 minute of combat. roll initiative, declare actions in reverse order, adjust for speed of actions, resolve low to high, compensate for what happens, pose it all out, tally HAMSTER up, and then start all over again. WEEEEEE fun for mmo's.
If you really want to get into what makes D&D, D&D, it would really be, Castle Grayhawk. Which WotC doesnt own the rights to. Greayhawk was the definitive D&D setting for ages, but Forgotten Realms took over when the rights to Greyhawk weren't sold with the rights to everything else (like Beholders). If anything these days, being able to use TM's monsters from D&D is what really makes D&D, D&D.
D&D/AD&D were great at the time, but times have changed. THAC0 (thats a zero not a oh at the end there) was a terribad idea. Vanceian spell-casting was said by Vance himself to be the worst thing he ever came up with and he wishes he could go back and remove the idea from his books. Game systems either die or evolve. D&D was in its death throws before 3.0, and once again is struggling since far too many people want quantified rules rather than quality rules. 4.0 was perfect for the mmo land, and as long as NWO actually uses things like beholders, is technically and thematically D&D. Rules dont make the setting.
P.S. for all you haters, tell me, are the stories for Drizzt, or Tasslehoff Burrfoot not D&D because they don't have mechanics and are not actually in the PnP game? At what point do rules actually dictate what D&D is more than setting and theme?
When he gets to Heaven To Saint Peter he will say, "Hand me 4d6. Lets roll the dice and play!"
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So tell me, I want to play as a ranged rogue, where's that option?
There are lots of ranged powers for Rogues. You could have all but one at-will power be ranged. Would that be a good choice? Probably not, but...
I can roll one right now in DDO.
This wouldn't be a good idea in DDO either, unless things have changed a lot in the past year. It might even be a dumber idea in DDO than in Neverwinter.
Does 4e not allow for ranged rogues?
It certainly does. They're quite effective.
Where's my druid? Where's my Favored Soul? In fact, where are about 90% of the classes?
Even DDO didn't launch with those classes. Druid is also not in the PHB1 in 4E.
And seriously, "Favored Soul"? An obscure 3.5 class that only got added to DDO because it's a trivial variant of Cleric? Why would you expect them in Open Beta? Or ever?
There's plenty of room for more customization in Neverwinter, and do I wish there was more. But all the cherry picking of this must be in for it to be D&D options people latch on to are just silly. There's certainly D&D in Neverwinter.
but it is very clearly different from the direction of previous editions with a much more super-hero limited choice orientation
By "editions" do you mean "3E and 3.5" as separate editions? 4E has more choices than any edition of pre-3E D&D.
And "super-hero" is ridiculous. 3.5 has way more over the top, gamebreakingly powerful characters. But I guess they were OK because it was only for people wrote the right class on their sheet and weren't dumb enough to write "Fighter" or "Rogue".
Anyone else see the iroy in the idea that "more customiation is better" then turning around and saying "elf was a class not a race"
So if you wanted to play elf, you got exactly 1 option on what to do.
lets go through some 2.0 and before stuff.
Roll 3d6 for stats, what you roll determines what you can play. You don't get to pick where stats go, you are forced into specific classes based on stats. yeah, thats more customization for you, less options at chargen = more options overall.
unless you play with nonweapon proficiencies (Aka Feats), and expanded weapon proficiency rules, your class got a very narrow scope of weapons and armor available to be used. With said rules in place, you saw even less builds because everyone specialized in certian weapons and pitched the rest. BTW everyone running ******* swords or darts because they might be abused one way or the other, means that you have less real viable choices anyway. those are called fake choices. If your given the option of 3d6 damage, and 4d6 damage, and all other things are equal, you be picking the 4d6 option every time. the 3d6 option is a fake option.
the game is also incredibly turn based. When i say that, we are talking hours for 1 minute of combat. roll initiative, declare actions in reverse order, adjust for speed of actions, resolve low to high, compensate for what happens, pose it all out, tally HAMSTER up, and then start all over again. WEEEEEE fun for mmo's.
If you really want to get into what makes D&D, D&D, it would really be, Castle Grayhawk. Which WotC doesnt own the rights to. Greayhawk was the definitive D&D setting for ages, but Forgotten Realms took over when the rights to Greyhawk weren't sold with the rights to everything else (like Beholders). If anything these days, being able to use TM's monsters from D&D is what really makes D&D, D&D.
D&D/AD&D were great at the time, but times have changed. THAC0 (thats a zero not a oh at the end there) was a terribad idea. Vanceian spell-casting was said by Vance himself to be the worst thing he ever came up with and he wishes he could go back and remove the idea from his books. Game systems either die or evolve. D&D was in its death throws before 3.0, and once again is struggling since far too many people want quantified rules rather than quality rules. 4.0 was perfect for the mmo land, and as long as NWO actually uses things like beholders, is technically and thematically D&D. Rules dont make the setting.
P.S. for all you haters, tell me, are the stories for Drizzt, or Tasslehoff Burrfoot not D&D because they don't have mechanics and are not actually in the PnP game? At what point do rules actually dictate what D&D is more than setting and theme?
Which is exactly why I never played ToEE to completion. I hate turnbased combat in a video game.
All of this aside, I have played plenty of CRPGs that felt like D&D. Nice rage post though. You'd have a point if not for Interplay, BioWare and Obsidian. Unfortunately, those entities existed. Of course, the part you're leaving out is the case of Bud Light consumed, the laughs, the jokes, the popcorn, the DM begging, the dragon spawns because the group leader wouldn't quit arguing with the DM, etc etc. You know, the actually hanging out with your friends and playing a game things.
In response to your last query, Drizzt won't work in Neverwinter: There is no dual wield ranger. So I guess, for 4e, nope, he can't work any more. Oh, wait, that's not for 4e, that's just for Neverwinter, huh?:cool:
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
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delgatto42Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 135Bounty Hunter
...And "super-hero" is ridiculous. 3.5 has way more over the top, gamebreakingly powerful characters. But I guess they were OK because it was only for people wrote the right class on their sheet and weren't dumb enough to write "Fighter" or "Rogue".
Hey did I ever tell you about the time in 3.0 (not 3.5) I found a way to travel all the way around the world in one combat round as long as I had enough opponants to kill?
What about the time in 3.5 where I got whirlwind attack, and spiked chain and killed an entire warren of gobos in a single round of combat?
What about the time I built a nearly unkillable razor claw shifter that was a few levels of ranger, druid, and then warshaper?
Not to mention my lvl 5 ninja that could kill just about anyone for the price of 25k gold by going ethereal, walking into their house, popping out, mixing a bag of holding and a portable hole, and going ethereal before the astral gash sucked him in along with anyone else within the dead zone?
Did you hear about the time in 2.0 I was a psion, and used dimension door to cut my foes in half?
or the time I used the shape change power till it was "botched" and i had a natural AC of 0 at level 1?
What about the time I, as a wizard, used 4 polymorphs to change myself from a human into a ancient dragon perminately (by making small jumps in type)?
Did i tell you about the time in 4.0 that I... uh.... .was basically just as powerful as everyone else, and each fight seemed appropriately difficult for my team?
Believe me, I take pride in breaking systems, and 4.0 is not all that broken. If anything (and remember I like 4.0) every class is flavorless and generic. Id say the most broken stuff in 4.0 is maybe ~5% better than a solid non munchkin.
When he gets to Heaven To Saint Peter he will say, "Hand me 4d6. Lets roll the dice and play!"
Quite frankly, the game doesn't feel like D&D at all to me. I don't even consider it to BE a "D&D" game. The only thing it really shares with it are the class name, and a few of the spells. Yeah, 4th ed, made the game much more like a console button-masher, but meh.
Why can't my wizard use a staff?
Because they have not introduced the wizard type that will use a staff implement (or a wand implement, for that matter).
Why can't my fighter dual wield?
Because they have not introduced the dual-wield fighter into the game (if such a critter even exists in 4E)
Why can't my cleric use mace + shield?
Because they have not introduced the mace+ shield battle cleric into the game yet. Seeing a pattern here?
Why can't my fighter wear leather or chain if I want to?
Why would you want to? It's a change made to make each class more iconic and possibly to try to prevent loot ninjas, though nothing will really help that as long as there is a need button.
Where are all the iconic D&D spells? Fireball, lightning bolt, wall of fire, web, monster summoning, etc.
I could go on. So, yeah, it's not D&D to me. It's "fantasy mmo #3718" that has a few names gleaned from D&D. That's about it.
In development?
What do you want? That they not launch the game until every little thing that you can think of is in the game? That they have to play the little "jump through the hoops until I finally find one that you can't jump through" game with you?
People act like 3.X was the only true D&D and it isn't, or the 3-book basic D&D set if they want to play the "old-timer" card. It never was. People come from a variety of systems and each has their own favorite for mostly sentimental reasons.
So they make a 4E port and all there is is wah, wah, wah, it's not MY D&D.
No, it's not. Your D&D was played with books and paper and around a table with real people. It's still there if you can find the people to play it with.
Otherwise there is this.
Like it? Don't like it? It ain't changing. It will be tweaked and it will be added to, but it ain't ever going to be "your" D&D. It's going to be this D&D. It's own unique animal.
And if your judgement of a game rests solely upon it measuring up to your perfect memories of what D&D was, all polished over time and all of the imperfections and arguments and hassles filtered out, then you will never find a game that compares.
I'm 46 and have been playing D&D since 1978. This game feels more like D&D than most all of the 3.5ed stuff did. That rule set felt like it was all about spreadsheets and min/max. To me, that is not what D&D is all about.
4ed feels closer to the experience 1ed offered than 3/3.5, to me.
Note that DDO didn't launch with many classes either. Where was the shapeshifting druid in DDO for the past several years? How about the monk? If the 3.5ed rule set is how you define D&D then this game probably won't satisfy you, but please don't tell me it's not D&D because it doesn't work for you because it feels like D&D to me.
Yes.
DDOs level cap was 10 when they started, it's 25, soon to be 28, now.
They started with 9 classes and 5 races (iirc) and now have 13 classes 8 races.
So I expect NWO to grow.
But the thing with DDO is that it is quite flexible.
There have been effective and popular builds that are very unconventional.
Like sorcerer's who tank with a greatsword, clerics who specialize in unarmed combat, barbarian trappers, bard main healers, bard and cleric who use bows exclusively, artificers and favored souls who melee with two-handed weapons. These aren't gimp, flavor builds either. people found a way to make them work.
By allowing a little freedom with the basic tools you can make some really fun, head-scratcher builds.
But PvP is a problem.
In DDO you can make a barcher (bard/archer) that can sing a song that will freeze a single mob in place and then take them down with arrows.
That's fine in PvE but in the PvP pits it creates issues because there is simply nothing your opponent can do about it.
So yeah, with all of those tools you can make a build that can glitch-fight all comers so that won't work as well in a game that focuses n PvP.
But a little bit of the DDO thing would be awesome.
The other problem with DDO that NWO maybe looking to avoid is the learning curve.
New players in DDO make these builds, I tell you, that are just marvels of gimplitude.
You can easily break your character with some poor choices and end up with a train wreck build.
So NWO maybe be going for simplicity and a streamlined building process that makes it so no choice will totally kill you.
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blupa2010Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Which is exactly why I never played ToEE to completion. I hate turnbased combat in a video game.
All of this aside, I have played plenty of CRPGs that felt like D&D. Nice rage post though. You'd have a point if not for Interplay, BioWare and Obsidian. Unfortunately, those entities existed. Of course, the part you're leaving out is the case of Bud Light consumed, the laughs, the jokes, the popcorn, the DM begging, the dragon spawns because the group leader wouldn't quit arguing with the DM, etc etc. You know, the actually hanging out with your friends and playing a game things.
In response to your last query, Drizzt won't work in Neverwinter: There is no dual wield ranger. So I guess, for 4e, nope, he can't work any more. Oh, wait, that's not for 4e, that's just for Neverwinter, huh?:cool:
funny enough no rage. RAGE GENERALLY HAS ME USING CAPS. no joke. Those games might feel kinda D&D ish, but without the critters that actually make D&D, it just feels like a faded wannabe. Like watching Michelle Pfeiffer's midsummer night's dream. As for the rest, Last time I was in a group PUG skirmish (beta weekend before my friends had access), I got to hear some dude eating his chips over the voip. Since I never play alone now, my mumble has me and my group making jokes, tho we dont drink and game (seriously thats a good way to lose all your AD's).
As for the DM abusing power, yeah, totally going to miss power tripping A-holes that actually sour the experience, and got me away from PnP and into MMO's. I actually do hang out with my friends and play D&D. One lives in Cali, one in MO, one in Fiji, and one in the UK. Luckly I get to play DnD with my friends nomatter where in the world they are, and dont have to play by post, or worse yet, openrpg.
Since all the classes arnt in, looks like he does work. OR you can use your imagination and see the dual weilding roge as him. Hell in 3.5, Male drow Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5 http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20010117d
Hes HARDLY a ranger.
In 2.0 he was level 16, which is 2 levels above racial cap for drow on ranger.
So mechanically Drizzit doesnt work in any system, but since that wasnt my question, and you deliberately avoided actually answering it, ill K.I.S.S. (keep it simple Stupid) it for you:
Are the books that these characters adventure in, not D&D because the books dont have mechanics associated with them, and the mechanics associated with them dont even work half the time from other sources?
When he gets to Heaven To Saint Peter he will say, "Hand me 4d6. Lets roll the dice and play!"
There is no customization of characters...whether it is skills or spells. Take, for example, a cleric of Sel
**EDIT
Ok then, can't even code a good vBulletin it seems...
Basically my rant was for all the old-school D&D types that know what THAC0 is and remember when elf was a CLASS rather than a race.
While I fondly remember THAC0, I am keenly aware that a MMO built upon the finer workings of AD&D 2 and 2.5 would of been absolutely horrible. I am fond of the game as it is and to me it is very D&D like.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
funny enough no rage. RAGE GENERALLY HAS ME USING CAPS. no joke. Those games might feel kinda D&D ish, but without the critters that actually make D&D, it just feels like a faded wannabe. Like watching Michelle Pfeiffer's midsummer night's dream. As for the rest, Last time I was in a group PUG skirmish (beta weekend before my friends had access), I got to hear some dude eating his chips over the voip. Since I never play alone now, my mumble has me and my group making jokes, tho we dont drink and game (seriously thats a good way to lose all your AD's).
As for the DM abusing power, yeah, totally going to miss power tripping A-holes that actually sour the experience, and got me away from PnP and into MMO's. I actually do hang out with my friends and play D&D. One lives in Cali, one in MO, one in Fiji, and one in the UK. Luckly I get to play DnD with my friends nomatter where in the world they are, and dont have to play by post, or worse yet, openrpg.
Since all the classes arnt in, looks like he does work. OR you can use your imagination and see the dual weilding roge as him. Hell in 3.5, Male drow Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5 http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20010117d
Hes HARDLY a ranger.
In 2.0 he was level 16, which is 2 levels above racial cap for drow on ranger.
So mechanically Drizzit doesnt work in any system, but since that wasnt my question, and you deliberately avoided actually answering it, ill K.I.S.S. (keep it simple Stupid) it for you:
Are the books that these characters adventure in, not D&D because the books dont have mechanics associated with them, and the mechanics associated with them dont even work half the time from other sources?
I have friends that live in NZ, from a non-D&D based MMO, while I live here in the States, and one in Australia from my NWN player days. I don't see what your point about that is? All one needs is to play an MMO in a decent sized guild to have this going on, no matter what system it's based on. It's still fun, especially with my NZ friend, because his accent was so thick we could barely understand him, and often, after the third or fourth "what?", he'd just type. Good times, and no D&D needed. But since I walk away from this feeling more like I've been playing Mass Effect than D&D, you think I'm wrong? You see, this is a very subjective topic. If pigeonholed characters with very few options is ok, even if they aren't that limited in actual 4e rules is all D&D to you, fine. It's not to me. I'm not even considering Min/Maxed custom multiclassed builds, even though I have a few dozen of those, there's just too much missing for me to go 'yep, this is what D&D was supposed to be'. It's not. It's not even close.
So they have completely revamped him, yet again? How many variations over the years? As to books; do you really expect the game mechanics to carry over to books? I guess you're having a problem with mediums? Neverwinter is not a book, it's a game that was advertised as D&D. This is what I expected when I downloaded it and logged in for the first time. This is not what I got. When I buy a book based on the Realms, I don't expect to see pages upon pages of dice rolls. This is why I initially left just the comment I left. I don't expect to play a game when I'm reading a book, I expect to read a book. When I play a game, I expect to play a game, and when that game promises me a rich D&D experience, I expect to get it. So far, it has failed to deliver.
Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication.
I do get what is being complained about, but in all reality when a D&D game actually comes out that encompasses all aspects of customization from traditional D&D...it would take 10 years to make, and the level of complexity that game would offer would far overshadow even games like Eve Online. That's not a bad thing, and I welcome that with open arms, although for what Cryptic is trying to put on the table here as an action-based D&D game I think they cut all the right corners. Just my opinion, and of course everyone's entitled to their own.
1)It doesnt need all the rules to 'feel' like D&D
2)DDO aside from horrible controls, gods awful setting, and dated graphics does a fine job of giving you a 3.5 gaming experience and feeling like D&D despite its gods awful setting.
Who the hell cares about D&D in 2013? Why are you even bringing up this argument? Can you weirdo role player please just leave the 90's and actually wake up and smell the roses, no one cares about that stuff anymore and thank goodness for that, no one cares if this has any D&D into it or pokemon stuff into it, all we care is that it's FUN... yes O M G what a evil word to say, it's a anti-rp word.. I know FUN Z-O-M-G!
you realize that you just ripped into a large number of people that care about D&D *AND* role playing by saying "no one cares about that stuff anymore"? Can you see the ignorance in that? The fact that there are a pile of people *****ing about it proves you are totally wrong numbnuts good job disproving yourself
They made a pretty 3rd person shooter. I'm having fun with it, and will likely have some more. But so far, this game hasn't taken hold of me and made me want to invest a lot of money in staying over the long haul, yet.
When I'm sitting here playing this, and have the music from Dragon Age going through my head instead of the music from here, I know I'm not hooked yet. I wasn't looking for D&D when I played Dragon Age, so it's feel didn't bother me, it wasn't advertised to be D&D. This game was. I expected more of that feel, and I'm not getting it. You can assure me it's D&D all you like, and I can appreciate that to you it does. That's not my issue. My issue, as slight as it may be, is that it doesn't feel like D&D to me. Even the base classes that are represented are stripped to bare bones.
this sums it up pretty well really. Its a fun game... its a good fantasy game, but it aint D&D. It just doesnt have the feel or the flow of D&D.
And seriously, "Favored Soul"? An obscure 3.5 class that only got added to DDO because it's a trivial variant of Cleric? Why would you expect them in Open Beta? Or ever?
By "editions" do you mean "3E and 3.5" as separate editions? 4E has more choices than any edition of pre-3E D&D.
And "super-hero" is ridiculous. 3.5 has way more over the top, gamebreakingly powerful characters. But I guess they were OK because it was only for people wrote the right class on their sheet and weren't dumb enough to write "Fighter" or "Rogue".
AD&D 2nd Ed had plenty of options, yes you had to own a couple dozen rule books to play most of em but you could do most any thing you wanted.
As for 3.5 having game breakingly powerful characters, if your DM let people have the min/max munchkins you were gaming under the wrong GM. If your group regularly made those min/max munchkin characters you were in the wrong group. At its core D&D is a ROLE playing game not a ROLL playing game... if people want to ROLL play, games workshop has several lines of dice heavy products with 0 need for ROLE playing just setup and throw yer tons of d6 around all day.
It may not be AD&D or even 3.5 but it does seem to be a decent port of 4e to an mmo. In an mmo you will never have the full range of customization that you do on pnp. MMO's that try like DDO have massive balance issues where content is either trivial or impossible all depending on what your build is.
Not that massive, but there is more to balance in a non-4e system.
4e is inherently balanced and scaled.
Oh, and charonus ... "hi welcome" ;-)
I may need to move my characters ... you're on Dragon?
1st and 2nd editions didn't offer any character customization. Don't romanticize the days of yore to the point you leave reality.
It's true however that this game doesn't offer the level of customization that 4e does.
Oddly enough, the big thing about this game is the customization of the dungeon (foundry). My take:
AD&D (I played 1e): low player customization by rules. Infinite DM customization and the DMG has a "throw in as much cool stuff as you can fit in it" feel leaving DM's with the certain knowledge that their ability to change things on the fly isn't some specific "rule zero" but the very nature of D&D.
[2e I only experienced through Baldur's Gate. Seemed just like 1e with a DM who lets you use overpowered stuff from the Dragon.]
D&D (3.x): character customization gone wild. You can make anything, and likely will regardless of whatever adventures, worldly goals, loves, lost dreams, conquests and failures. You just keep following your build regardless of any other growth in the world. This doesn't really change the DM's ability to build his world, its just that the players are more focused on their own builds.
D&D (4.0): The big sale and preview focused on how much they were destroying both types of customisations. Players would be forced into premade builds that would be exactly the same as everyone else (even classes were made to be as nearly identical as possible). DMs would be no longer expected to create a world: NPCs simply existed to give a quest and vanish (actual quote mentioned a king giving a quest and vanishing). At this point I simply was sad for the loss of the D&D name (OGL meant 3.x couldn't die that way) and ignored 4e from then on. I understand it didn't turn out quite that bad, but when you salesmen are pushing how it is completely unlike D&D in every way, don't expect anyone to bother to find out.
There are lots of ranged powers for Rogues. You could have all but one at-will power be ranged. Would that be a good choice? Probably not, but...
This wouldn't be a good idea in DDO either, unless things have changed a lot in the past year. It might even be a dumber idea in DDO than in Neverwinter.
A ranged rogue in DDO would be dead meat in endgame, but could be the type of character you get out and play around with for fun. Your two options would either an [elvish] rogue/ranger hybrid (longbow) or mechanic rogue/artificer (crossbow). Note artificer isn't f2p and makes a huge difference for crossbow wielders after just two levels (runearm).
Actually, I begin to suspect that the crossbow user only had 6 levels of rogue (out of 20) and has since been nerfed [DDO nerfs rogues without thinking about it. Don't play rogues in DDO without a strong knowledge of the rules and a certain indifference to your power level relative to other non-rogues]. Also note that the main reason you want an elf for the longbow build is for the enhancements at 20th level. Since DDO is planning on replacing said enhancement system, you could easily never get to user the slayer arrows from a 20th level AA.
Comments
I understand your point and your point is valid.
It's just a completely different argument than the one I'm reading in this thread. No offense intended.
People are making suggestions about apples and folks are chiming in about oranges.
What I think most are saying, at least what I'm saying, is that relatively small changes like being able to pick what weapon you put in your hand or choose between fireball and charm monster or multi-classing would make the game feel more D&D like for them.
Then folks are bringing up spell failure percentage and turn based systems and what-not.
No one is talking about that.
No one, that I have read, is asking for an exact replica of their favorite addition of he books.
People just seem to be making a few simple suggestions that they think will make the game feel more "right".
Maybe the problem is that the OPs thread title is so dramatic and overblown. idk.
Anyway, if anyone else has any points they would like to make about Initiative Rolls and Dungeon Master Screens please ask yourself if anyone is asking for that.
:-)
Yea I do have to totally agree with this. Being the action-based game it is, there would be nothing wrong with different weapon choices or spell paths to choose from. Multiclassing could even be as simple as using the same combat animations with a Fighter/Wizard as the current warriors and wizards use (although slightly less effective if multiclassed). Although I really don't think we'll ever see multiclassing in this game, the promise of additional Paragon paths does show a lot of promise.
This. If someone could start this same discussion with some sort of credibility the responses would be more constructive as well I believe.
Nobody is complaining about this being a video game. Your last post made more sense. People should not expect this be be an exact replica of D&D Pnp and I'd agree with that (action vs turn based seems the primary difference driver to me). What you originally said, however, indicated that people who play D&D Pnp are complaining that this is a video game rather than literally pencil and paper.
Again, read your original post. "compain about everyone using pen and paper" That statement has nothing to do with rules, just the medium for playing. People who play D&D and are complaining about this game are not complaining about the fact that it is a video game rather than not a video game. You've since cleared up your position.
Frankly, I think your group is terrible at reviewing. That comparison seems entirely based around the idea of cooldowns, while completely ignoring how the actual game is played.
Heck, it's not even a very good comparison. 4E's "cooldowns" are all about resource management. That's almost never the case in MMOs where you just fire off everything in your rotation. Even in NWO our "Encounter Powers" are used more than once an encounter, and our "Daily Powers" are used more than once per rest. The logistics aspect is completely missing.
If you've played 4E extensively then you should know combat revolves around a grid (and they even use squares as the standard of measurement!), and the gameplay primarily involves taking turns positioning and then picking one Power out of your list. That pretty much exactly describes the entire Turn Based Strategy genre, and bear zero resemblance to MMO gameplay - including MMOs like DDO or NWO.
Has no one in your group ever played something like Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Tactics, Jagged Alliance, Fantasy General, X-Com, or Advance War?
That is exactly why "4E is like an MMO" sounds so stupid to me. Table-top D&D games play like a miniature wargame with roleplaying (often without actual miniatures). 4E stuck everyone into squares and then gave everyone a set of choices, making it even closer to Turn Based Tactical games. None of that sounds even vaguely like how any MMO plays.
Damned kid........Get off my lawn!!!:mad:
Considering I don't believe this game feels much like D&D, and I'll be 50 next week, I'll take that bet. Other than a couple of months about 10 years ago, I haven't touched PnP D&D. I have, however, played NWN, BG, BG 2, IWD 1 and 2, DDO etc, hell, I even tried ToEE, and turn based just wasn't my cup of tea. However, the one thing all of those games had that this one lacks is the feel. We literally had what would be the equivalent of PnP sessions in NWN, only we didn't have to roll dice, the game did it for us, and I didn't have to clean the house the next day. So tell me, I want to play as a ranged rogue, where's that option? I can roll one right now in DDO. Does 4e not allow for ranged rogues? Where's my druid? Where's my Favored Soul? In fact, where are about 90% of the classes?
Both excellent games. Spent many an hour playing Jag, Deadly Ground, Jag II. Most fun I've had playing a turn based game.
Oh really... http://www.examiner.com/article/was-4th-edition-dungeons-dragons-meant-to-be-a-mmorpg
Andy Collins, one of the 4e developers explicitly states that 4e was influenced by mmorpgs. Why you ask? If you read the article they imagined 4e though DDi having a strong virtual presence with online table tops, which as the brand grew would eventually lead up to a full mmorpg, again based on 4e.
Now that is not to say that 4e was an abomination, but it is very clearly different from the direction of previous editions with a much more super-hero limited choice orientation, and should have been released as an alternative edition rather than a replacement.
4E's gameplay and mechanics have less in common with the gameplay and mechanics of the MMORPG genre than the TBS genre. DDI and the VTT (so sad this never came to fruition) support that. The only thing vaguely related to MMOs is the influence statement and the fact that they want to make money from a 4E MMO.
We are in fact currently on the forum for the official "4E MMO", which hardly resembles the actual 4E in gameplay, therefore countering any argument that could have been made based on that last point.
So the only thing that addresses my stance is Andy Collins' statement:
"As professional game designers, we look at all games for lessons," he said last year. "Certainly, the lessons we learn from online games are going to be the most obvious ones because they have a lot of people familiar with the sources, but there's also lessons about turn management from European board games, interface ideas from card games."
A vague statement which hardly contradicts my point - that 4E plays nothing like any MMO, including DDO and NWO.
I'm 46 and have been playing D&D since 1978. This game feels more like D&D than most all of the 3.5ed stuff did. That rule set felt like it was all about spreadsheets and min/max. To me, that is not what D&D is all about.
4ed feels closer to the experience 1ed offered than 3/3.5, to me.
Note that DDO didn't launch with many classes either. Where was the shapeshifting druid in DDO for the past several years? How about the monk? If the 3.5ed rule set is how you define D&D then this game probably won't satisfy you, but please don't tell me it's not D&D because it doesn't work for you because it feels like D&D to me.
See you all in game. I'm the gimp Guardian Fighter who keeps dying. My son makes fun of me for being a "****". I'm not sure what that is yet. Dang kids.
That's absolutely correct though. DDO did lack some of those classes initially, and I'm not sure it has all of them yet, with Druid being the last addition to the game. However, I can equip a bow as a rogue, and shoot stuff if I have to. Base classes weren't nerfed in the name of whatever the name of they are nerfed here for. Only one type of mage, really? Only 2 variations of fighter, only one type of rogue/cleric? But this is just the tip of the iceberg to me; the rest lies in other things that are missing, that I have been assured still exist in actual rules, and can be implemented here quite easily, evidently, since they have been implemented on engines as primitive as the Infinity Engine from BG fame. The character models remind me heavily of NWN 2, and the mechanics are possible in the aurora engine, but they can't implement search/spot? We don't have to worry about saves, or be able to make saves? Did they take this out of 4e too, or was it just not implemented.
There's more, but I'll leave it off. The game is fun enough, for now. That's not my issue. My issue is "But this is D&D" in one topic, and "it's not D&D" in another from people that want to defend the game for what it is, which to me is a third person shooter with sword and sorcery instead of guns. Playing this reminds me more of playing Mass Effect than D&D, and that's what I'm talking about. They didn't implement all the rules, or even many of them. They didn't implement the mechanics involved with the rules. They made a pretty 3rd person shooter. I'm having fun with it, and will likely have some more. But so far, this game hasn't taken hold of me and made me want to invest a lot of money in staying over the long haul, yet.
When I'm sitting here playing this, and have the music from Dragon Age going through my head instead of the music from here, I know I'm not hooked yet. I wasn't looking for D&D when I played Dragon Age, so it's feel didn't bother me, it wasn't advertised to be D&D. This game was. I expected more of that feel, and I'm not getting it. You can assure me it's D&D all you like, and I can appreciate that to you it does. That's not my issue. My issue, as slight as it may be, is that it doesn't feel like D&D to me. Even the base classes that are represented are stripped to bare bones.
So if you wanted to play elf, you got exactly 1 option on what to do.
lets go through some 2.0 and before stuff.
Roll 3d6 for stats, what you roll determines what you can play. You don't get to pick where stats go, you are forced into specific classes based on stats. yeah, thats more customization for you, less options at chargen = more options overall.
unless you play with nonweapon proficiencies (Aka Feats), and expanded weapon proficiency rules, your class got a very narrow scope of weapons and armor available to be used. With said rules in place, you saw even less builds because everyone specialized in certian weapons and pitched the rest. BTW everyone running ******* swords or darts because they might be abused one way or the other, means that you have less real viable choices anyway. those are called fake choices. If your given the option of 3d6 damage, and 4d6 damage, and all other things are equal, you be picking the 4d6 option every time. the 3d6 option is a fake option.
the game is also incredibly turn based. When i say that, we are talking hours for 1 minute of combat. roll initiative, declare actions in reverse order, adjust for speed of actions, resolve low to high, compensate for what happens, pose it all out, tally HAMSTER up, and then start all over again. WEEEEEE fun for mmo's.
If you really want to get into what makes D&D, D&D, it would really be, Castle Grayhawk. Which WotC doesnt own the rights to. Greayhawk was the definitive D&D setting for ages, but Forgotten Realms took over when the rights to Greyhawk weren't sold with the rights to everything else (like Beholders). If anything these days, being able to use TM's monsters from D&D is what really makes D&D, D&D.
D&D/AD&D were great at the time, but times have changed. THAC0 (thats a zero not a oh at the end there) was a terribad idea. Vanceian spell-casting was said by Vance himself to be the worst thing he ever came up with and he wishes he could go back and remove the idea from his books. Game systems either die or evolve. D&D was in its death throws before 3.0, and once again is struggling since far too many people want quantified rules rather than quality rules. 4.0 was perfect for the mmo land, and as long as NWO actually uses things like beholders, is technically and thematically D&D. Rules dont make the setting.
P.S. for all you haters, tell me, are the stories for Drizzt, or Tasslehoff Burrfoot not D&D because they don't have mechanics and are not actually in the PnP game? At what point do rules actually dictate what D&D is more than setting and theme?
There are lots of ranged powers for Rogues. You could have all but one at-will power be ranged. Would that be a good choice? Probably not, but...
This wouldn't be a good idea in DDO either, unless things have changed a lot in the past year. It might even be a dumber idea in DDO than in Neverwinter.
It certainly does. They're quite effective.
Even DDO didn't launch with those classes. Druid is also not in the PHB1 in 4E.
And seriously, "Favored Soul"? An obscure 3.5 class that only got added to DDO because it's a trivial variant of Cleric? Why would you expect them in Open Beta? Or ever?
There's plenty of room for more customization in Neverwinter, and do I wish there was more. But all the cherry picking of this must be in for it to be D&D options people latch on to are just silly. There's certainly D&D in Neverwinter.
By "editions" do you mean "3E and 3.5" as separate editions? 4E has more choices than any edition of pre-3E D&D.
And "super-hero" is ridiculous. 3.5 has way more over the top, gamebreakingly powerful characters. But I guess they were OK because it was only for people wrote the right class on their sheet and weren't dumb enough to write "Fighter" or "Rogue".
Which is exactly why I never played ToEE to completion. I hate turnbased combat in a video game.
All of this aside, I have played plenty of CRPGs that felt like D&D. Nice rage post though. You'd have a point if not for Interplay, BioWare and Obsidian. Unfortunately, those entities existed. Of course, the part you're leaving out is the case of Bud Light consumed, the laughs, the jokes, the popcorn, the DM begging, the dragon spawns because the group leader wouldn't quit arguing with the DM, etc etc. You know, the actually hanging out with your friends and playing a game things.
In response to your last query, Drizzt won't work in Neverwinter: There is no dual wield ranger. So I guess, for 4e, nope, he can't work any more. Oh, wait, that's not for 4e, that's just for Neverwinter, huh?:cool:
Hey did I ever tell you about the time in 3.0 (not 3.5) I found a way to travel all the way around the world in one combat round as long as I had enough opponants to kill?
What about the time in 3.5 where I got whirlwind attack, and spiked chain and killed an entire warren of gobos in a single round of combat?
What about the time I built a nearly unkillable razor claw shifter that was a few levels of ranger, druid, and then warshaper?
Not to mention my lvl 5 ninja that could kill just about anyone for the price of 25k gold by going ethereal, walking into their house, popping out, mixing a bag of holding and a portable hole, and going ethereal before the astral gash sucked him in along with anyone else within the dead zone?
Did you hear about the time in 2.0 I was a psion, and used dimension door to cut my foes in half?
or the time I used the shape change power till it was "botched" and i had a natural AC of 0 at level 1?
What about the time I, as a wizard, used 4 polymorphs to change myself from a human into a ancient dragon perminately (by making small jumps in type)?
Did i tell you about the time in 4.0 that I... uh.... .was basically just as powerful as everyone else, and each fight seemed appropriately difficult for my team?
Believe me, I take pride in breaking systems, and 4.0 is not all that broken. If anything (and remember I like 4.0) every class is flavorless and generic. Id say the most broken stuff in 4.0 is maybe ~5% better than a solid non munchkin.
Because they have not introduced the wizard type that will use a staff implement (or a wand implement, for that matter).
Because they have not introduced the dual-wield fighter into the game (if such a critter even exists in 4E)
Because they have not introduced the mace+ shield battle cleric into the game yet. Seeing a pattern here?
Why would you want to? It's a change made to make each class more iconic and possibly to try to prevent loot ninjas, though nothing will really help that as long as there is a need button.
In development?
What do you want? That they not launch the game until every little thing that you can think of is in the game? That they have to play the little "jump through the hoops until I finally find one that you can't jump through" game with you?
People act like 3.X was the only true D&D and it isn't, or the 3-book basic D&D set if they want to play the "old-timer" card. It never was. People come from a variety of systems and each has their own favorite for mostly sentimental reasons.
So they make a 4E port and all there is is wah, wah, wah, it's not MY D&D.
No, it's not. Your D&D was played with books and paper and around a table with real people. It's still there if you can find the people to play it with.
Otherwise there is this.
Like it? Don't like it? It ain't changing. It will be tweaked and it will be added to, but it ain't ever going to be "your" D&D. It's going to be this D&D. It's own unique animal.
And if your judgement of a game rests solely upon it measuring up to your perfect memories of what D&D was, all polished over time and all of the imperfections and arguments and hassles filtered out, then you will never find a game that compares.
Yes.
DDOs level cap was 10 when they started, it's 25, soon to be 28, now.
They started with 9 classes and 5 races (iirc) and now have 13 classes 8 races.
So I expect NWO to grow.
But the thing with DDO is that it is quite flexible.
There have been effective and popular builds that are very unconventional.
Like sorcerer's who tank with a greatsword, clerics who specialize in unarmed combat, barbarian trappers, bard main healers, bard and cleric who use bows exclusively, artificers and favored souls who melee with two-handed weapons. These aren't gimp, flavor builds either. people found a way to make them work.
By allowing a little freedom with the basic tools you can make some really fun, head-scratcher builds.
But PvP is a problem.
In DDO you can make a barcher (bard/archer) that can sing a song that will freeze a single mob in place and then take them down with arrows.
That's fine in PvE but in the PvP pits it creates issues because there is simply nothing your opponent can do about it.
So yeah, with all of those tools you can make a build that can glitch-fight all comers so that won't work as well in a game that focuses n PvP.
But a little bit of the DDO thing would be awesome.
The other problem with DDO that NWO maybe looking to avoid is the learning curve.
New players in DDO make these builds, I tell you, that are just marvels of gimplitude.
You can easily break your character with some poor choices and end up with a train wreck build.
So NWO maybe be going for simplicity and a streamlined building process that makes it so no choice will totally kill you.
funny enough no rage. RAGE GENERALLY HAS ME USING CAPS. no joke. Those games might feel kinda D&D ish, but without the critters that actually make D&D, it just feels like a faded wannabe. Like watching Michelle Pfeiffer's midsummer night's dream. As for the rest, Last time I was in a group PUG skirmish (beta weekend before my friends had access), I got to hear some dude eating his chips over the voip. Since I never play alone now, my mumble has me and my group making jokes, tho we dont drink and game (seriously thats a good way to lose all your AD's).
As for the DM abusing power, yeah, totally going to miss power tripping A-holes that actually sour the experience, and got me away from PnP and into MMO's. I actually do hang out with my friends and play D&D. One lives in Cali, one in MO, one in Fiji, and one in the UK. Luckly I get to play DnD with my friends nomatter where in the world they are, and dont have to play by post, or worse yet, openrpg.
Since all the classes arnt in, looks like he does work. OR you can use your imagination and see the dual weilding roge as him. Hell in 3.5, Male drow Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20010117d
Hes HARDLY a ranger.
In 2.0 he was level 16, which is 2 levels above racial cap for drow on ranger.
So mechanically Drizzit doesnt work in any system, but since that wasnt my question, and you deliberately avoided actually answering it, ill K.I.S.S. (keep it simple Stupid) it for you:
Are the books that these characters adventure in, not D&D because the books dont have mechanics associated with them, and the mechanics associated with them dont even work half the time from other sources?
While I fondly remember THAC0, I am keenly aware that a MMO built upon the finer workings of AD&D 2 and 2.5 would of been absolutely horrible. I am fond of the game as it is and to me it is very D&D like.
Character is what a man is in the dark
Dude, you rock. I think you're the only person I've ever seen pay any attention to the racial caps back in 2.0.
I have friends that live in NZ, from a non-D&D based MMO, while I live here in the States, and one in Australia from my NWN player days. I don't see what your point about that is? All one needs is to play an MMO in a decent sized guild to have this going on, no matter what system it's based on. It's still fun, especially with my NZ friend, because his accent was so thick we could barely understand him, and often, after the third or fourth "what?", he'd just type. Good times, and no D&D needed. But since I walk away from this feeling more like I've been playing Mass Effect than D&D, you think I'm wrong? You see, this is a very subjective topic. If pigeonholed characters with very few options is ok, even if they aren't that limited in actual 4e rules is all D&D to you, fine. It's not to me. I'm not even considering Min/Maxed custom multiclassed builds, even though I have a few dozen of those, there's just too much missing for me to go 'yep, this is what D&D was supposed to be'. It's not. It's not even close.
So they have completely revamped him, yet again? How many variations over the years? As to books; do you really expect the game mechanics to carry over to books? I guess you're having a problem with mediums? Neverwinter is not a book, it's a game that was advertised as D&D. This is what I expected when I downloaded it and logged in for the first time. This is not what I got. When I buy a book based on the Realms, I don't expect to see pages upon pages of dice rolls. This is why I initially left just the comment I left. I don't expect to play a game when I'm reading a book, I expect to read a book. When I play a game, I expect to play a game, and when that game promises me a rich D&D experience, I expect to get it. So far, it has failed to deliver.
2)DDO aside from horrible controls, gods awful setting, and dated graphics does a fine job of giving you a 3.5 gaming experience and feeling like D&D despite its gods awful setting.
you realize that you just ripped into a large number of people that care about D&D *AND* role playing by saying "no one cares about that stuff anymore"? Can you see the ignorance in that? The fact that there are a pile of people *****ing about it proves you are totally wrong numbnuts
this sums it up pretty well really. Its a fun game... its a good fantasy game, but it aint D&D. It just doesnt have the feel or the flow of D&D.
^this
I think ya nailed that one square on.
AD&D 2nd Ed had plenty of options, yes you had to own a couple dozen rule books to play most of em but you could do most any thing you wanted.
As for 3.5 having game breakingly powerful characters, if your DM let people have the min/max munchkins you were gaming under the wrong GM. If your group regularly made those min/max munchkin characters you were in the wrong group. At its core D&D is a ROLE playing game not a ROLL playing game... if people want to ROLL play, games workshop has several lines of dice heavy products with 0 need for ROLE playing just setup and throw yer tons of d6 around all day.
Not that massive, but there is more to balance in a non-4e system.
4e is inherently balanced and scaled.
Oh, and charonus ... "hi welcome" ;-)
I may need to move my characters ... you're on Dragon?
Oddly enough, the big thing about this game is the customization of the dungeon (foundry). My take:
AD&D (I played 1e): low player customization by rules. Infinite DM customization and the DMG has a "throw in as much cool stuff as you can fit in it" feel leaving DM's with the certain knowledge that their ability to change things on the fly isn't some specific "rule zero" but the very nature of D&D.
[2e I only experienced through Baldur's Gate. Seemed just like 1e with a DM who lets you use overpowered stuff from the Dragon.]
D&D (3.x): character customization gone wild. You can make anything, and likely will regardless of whatever adventures, worldly goals, loves, lost dreams, conquests and failures. You just keep following your build regardless of any other growth in the world. This doesn't really change the DM's ability to build his world, its just that the players are more focused on their own builds.
D&D (4.0): The big sale and preview focused on how much they were destroying both types of customisations. Players would be forced into premade builds that would be exactly the same as everyone else (even classes were made to be as nearly identical as possible). DMs would be no longer expected to create a world: NPCs simply existed to give a quest and vanish (actual quote mentioned a king giving a quest and vanishing). At this point I simply was sad for the loss of the D&D name (OGL meant 3.x couldn't die that way) and ignored 4e from then on. I understand it didn't turn out quite that bad, but when you salesmen are pushing how it is completely unlike D&D in every way, don't expect anyone to bother to find out.
A ranged rogue in DDO would be dead meat in endgame, but could be the type of character you get out and play around with for fun. Your two options would either an [elvish] rogue/ranger hybrid (longbow) or mechanic rogue/artificer (crossbow). Note artificer isn't f2p and makes a huge difference for crossbow wielders after just two levels (runearm).
Actually, I begin to suspect that the crossbow user only had 6 levels of rogue (out of 20) and has since been nerfed [DDO nerfs rogues without thinking about it. Don't play rogues in DDO without a strong knowledge of the rules and a certain indifference to your power level relative to other non-rogues]. Also note that the main reason you want an elf for the longbow build is for the enhancements at 20th level. Since DDO is planning on replacing said enhancement system, you could easily never get to user the slayer arrows from a 20th level AA.