I build content for a game where I have the foundry I want. I can do anything I feel like in my adventures, including handling out +12 Hackmasters of Doom like they are going out of style. In fact I released an adventure for that game at the same time as I released my adventures for this game. That adventure is 10 hours long, and can be completed without ever killing anything or even equipping a weapon (in fact I coded it so that people in the city generally won't talk to you if they see a weapon in your hands). It has some 200,000 words of dialog, about half of that in unabashedly historically accurate Thieves Cant that can send people to the dictionary I included with the adventure. That adventure has 1000x the player time of my Neverwinter Online quests (and since I was in Foundry beta, my content in Neverwinter Online was available from day 1).
Better solution: make mods for a game and players that value the story based content you want to make.
Or you can make the content you want in Neverwinter Online, and not be concerned about how many people are playing it.
So. Yes, i want the foundry xp back. I want 60. Like right now Why? I enjoy it. This is a game i want to have fun in, and that is how I have fun. The only way this affects other foundry authors is that their content gets lost in the heap of "MAKE OGERS [sic] FLY OFF OF THIS PLATFORM v3004"
Give us some better search functions, and a way to categorize what's available. This problem goes away in MINUTES.
HOWEVER. I would also play the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of this. You want to engage me with 10 hours of well done dialogue in a player made MMO quest made to rival better tabletop games? That is WHY i wanted foundry in the first place.
I have some issues with the tool in general, but i realize that there are going to be some growing pains. Let us play the game like we want to play. We have an infinite potential for content, LET US USE IT.
This exactly. This "fix" isn't a fix at all, it's a pathetic bandaid that's punishing everyone *except* the people exploiting.
They need to fix the real issues:
1) Reset/go invincible on NPCs that can't damage a player.
2) Don't give XP from mobs that die from fall damage.
That's not that hard and I say that as a game programmer, so I'm not grossly underestimating work involved. Most other games *already have this*.
As a software engineer I can't imagine something like this being difficult......as a critical thinker with a love for solving puzzles I feel the developers picked up the foundry, wrapped some duct tape around it and exclaimed "There! I fixed it!".
I personally enjoy the gameplay in this game, but there are times where I feel I need to grind experience just to stay equal level to the content I am playing.....specifically right now I was level 21 with 7 bars to go, and the only quests available are labeled as level 23. I could power through the quests but it would be more difficult than if I was level appropriate, so I decided to do an ogre grind map (that is, you fight ogres that do fight back), it was a small one with only 20 ogres, but after killing 2-3 ogres I quite literally took a 2-3 minute break so I could continue getting experience......I actually typed my first post during one of my breaks.
I just finished the map and I have obtained roughly 16 bars worth of experience (I leveled to 22 and got nearly halfway through it). Considering I am playing a GWF, it took me around a minute to kill each ogre, that works out to around an hour of play time (with kill speed + travel time + waiting so I get more experience)......pretty sure if I had quests my level I could level in a half hour or so.
I understand the need to stop the exploit, but why should grinding mobs give me considerably less experience than grinding quests, when there are not enough quests to take you from 1-60 on quests and the mob kills you get during them?
As a software engineer I can't imagine something like this being difficult......as a critical thinker with a love for solving puzzles I feel the developers picked up the foundry, wrapped some duct tape around it and exclaimed "There! I fixed it!".
This exactly. I mean, making it so they're invincible if they can't land any attacks is not hard. Seriously. If they don't have line of sight/can't execute an attack and the player is within some reasonable distance, boom, reset/invincible. GW2 does this. It's a matter of not much more than an if statement and a raycast, though you could probably even do it more optimally than that.
The no XP from mobs that die to fall damage is also super goddang easy. In the check for fall damage, check to see if they die, if they do, don't award XP (or check the type of damage in the death functionality, depending on how the code is set up).
This "fix" (nerfing everything to unplayability) is exactly a bunch of lazy duct tape, and probably wasn't any easier than the real fix.
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cloudspiderMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I see no reason for the nerf. People play mmo's for fun. So let people do whats fun for them. There is no benefit from nerfing foundry rewards. I thought the foundry system was one of the best aspects of the game. And now before the game is even released they take radical action because some exploit the foundry to rush to endgame.. so what!?! There is no sub fee for the game. So its not like PWE makes more money if it takes longer for you to level. The only thing they accomplished is making me feel like im wasting time in foundries. It really bothers me because "I Am Slayer" is quality content and missions like "Monsterfest" give me that insurmountable odds feel that i love. I thought the first big change would be an overnerf of some of the more powerful classes, but this blindsided me. Its like cutting off a hand because of a broken finger. I hope its just a quick fix while they work out a better way to stop the exploits, but even so i dont agree with it in the least. +1
solid /10chars
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cloudspiderMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Cryptic didn't nerf exp/loot because they think it's the right thing to do, they only did it because of the amount of complaining there was. If they think people shouldn't have a leveling advantage over other people, they wouldn't have sold founder packs with a 7-day early access. Cryptic obviously didn't very much care about a certain group of people having an advantage as long as they get paid.
And seriously what's wrong with exploit maps? How is a person, whom you don't know, hitting 60 three days before you did affect you in any harmful manner? Is Cryptic giving out a limited amount of epic gear, and their way of distribution is first come first served based on who hits 60 the fastest?
Listen, everyone is going to hit level cap eventually, even exploit maps will stop giving you exp. but with the removal of those maps, and the exp/loot nerf, everyone have lost a consistent mean to farm consumables at level 60. So now are we stuck doing 3 foundries an hour just to earn enough gold to purchase an injury kit?
Or mass killing open world mobs that can 2 shot me just to farm potions? How about being forced to do every single dailies to earn enough diamonds for a scroll that would identify a piece of gear that may or may not be an upgrade for me?
Why am I stuck spending 2 hours after work, just to farm consumables, so I can run a 1 hour dungeon that I most likely will not get a piece of loot that's right for me; instead of spending 10 minutes in a farming map, and the rest of my night enjoying the game's many other aspects?
Some of the more experienced "authors" ( <--- im sorry thats just LOL we make legit game mods not write books. ) will know that Cryptic have done LITTLE tweeks to STO's foundry to help stop exploits. They didnt take a chainsaw to it like they did here >_>
Exploits are bad destroying the foundry for all but the most anal sadcases is far far worse.
Why is it objectively good? I can explain why it's bad, as I have to you in other similar threads.
It's bad because it can damage the overall longevity of the game.
It's bad because players will spend less time logged in to the game overall when they get bored of end-game content. Again, longevity of the game.
It's bad because it's a slap in the face to the creative and game developers that spent literally months designing the leveling experience. Honestly, the main story is really not grindy and you get pretty awesome rewards for them, so I don't see why it seems a good idea to skip over it entirely by grinding exploit maps.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong. City of Heroes -started- the Foundry thing and it had a ton of Exp Farming maps; people did those just as much as the dev-provided content until the very end when it shut down. If anything it keeps people around who like to make alts but don't wanna do the same dang story quests(besides the Bag-giving ones, anyways) again. Lord knows that's what made me quit SWTOR...I refuse to do Tattooine ever again after 3 max lvl chars, among other areas.
One guy was lvling his Wizard PURELY by reviewing people's legitimate Foundry maps. But now he can't, because the exp gains randomly stop entirely. On the kiting farming maps I played, I used to get a full level's worth by the end of the run, and a few nice drops along the way; after the patch, I don't even get 3 bars of exp from the same exact map, and I saw maybe 4 drops, tops. They nerfed it -into the ground-.
Bottom line should be: Rather than nerf the **** out of the fun parts of the Foundry, fix the actual problems with the AI not being able to fight back. WoW has the Evade system when a mob can't hit you, and it's what, 8 years old now? It can't be that complicated to implement an Evasion system for mobs that can't pathfind to hit a player after X seconds. Fix what's broken, not break what's fun.
The fact I was trying to make is there are a thousand games that cater to the grinding XP/zero story playstyle, and only ONE that caters to those that want to bring the story back into the MMO. So I have every right to tell people to leave. What game can I fall back on that offers that kind of playstyle? None. And you want to change NWO to be just like every other grindfest out there, where the story is buried under a mile of bullcrap. Even after they started removing exploit quests, over half of the top "best" Foundry quests were "XP TRAINERS! LOLZ".
I am sorry, that is the kind of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that gives the Foundry a bad name, and it might attract players, but only the players this game does not want. The same players that will just get to 60 and in a few months leave to a new game anyways. Sure they played the heck out of the Foundry to power level, but once they hit max level, what point is there? They already proved they don't care about the story telling, and all the players that wanted story telling (and the good authors as well) have already left the game because it was overrun by the same mindless grinders as EVERY OTHER SINGLE MMO.
There comes a time when this "everyone has their own playstyle" mentality just has to be thrown out the window, because some games can not accommodate them all and still stay true to what it was meant to be.
As too all the players "but I want to grind out alts fast!"
Name ONE SINGLE MMO where you can get (as members of my guild did) 3-4 levels 60s in the first week of beta without even trying. THAT is what was happening.
How is this kind of playstyle even good for the game? How long before all my guild members just leave because they have experienced ALL the end-game content on several characters, don't care about the Foundry, and don't care about the leveling experience.
I bet most of them will be gone before Open Beta ends.
But in the mean time, they soured the name of the Foundry, players generally interested hear it is just a horrible experience to author for because your 100 hours worth of work are buried under 50 5-minute hack job XP trainers, and players wanting to play the best Foundry content have to sift through all these hack jobs. THey will just stay away. So now you have players leaving by the hundreds who have experienced everything the game has(in terms of end game) and the only new players you have joining are those looking for a free game they can max out to in a few days and play the end game, have some fun and leave before the month is done.
Real great way to build a community there...oh wait, its a horrible idea.
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ravenousfireMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 12Arc User
The fact I was trying to make is there are a thousand games that cater to the grinding XP/zero story playstyle, and only ONE that caters to those that want to bring the story back into the MMO. So I have every right to tell people to leave. What game can I fall back on that offers that kind of playstyle? None. And you want to change NWO to be just like every other grindfest out there, where the story is buried under a mile of bullcrap. Even after they started removing exploit quests, over half of the top "best" Foundry quests were "XP TRAINERS! LOLZ".
I am sorry, that is the kind of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that gives the Foundry a bad name, and it might attract players, but only the players this game does not want. The same players that will just get to 60 and in a few months leave to a new game anyways. Sure they played the heck out of the Foundry to power level, but once they hit max level, what point is there? They already proved they don't care about the story telling, and all the players that wanted story telling (and the good authors as well) have already left the game because it was overrun by the same mindless grinders as EVERY OTHER SINGLE MMO.
There comes a time when this "everyone has their own playstyle" mentality just has to be thrown out the window, because some games can not accommodate them all and still stay true to what it was meant to be.
As too all the players "but I want to grind out alts fast!"
Name ONE SINGLE MMO where you can get (as members of my guild did) 3-4 levels 60s in the first week of beta without even trying. THAT is what was happening.
How is this kind of playstyle even good for the game? How long before all my guild members just leave because they have experienced ALL the end-game content on several characters, don't care about the Foundry, and don't care about the leveling experience.
I bet most of them will be gone before Open Beta ends.
But in the mean time, they soured the name of the Foundry, players generally interested hear it is just a horrible experience to author for because your 100 hours worth of work are buried under 50 5-minute hack job XP trainers, and players wanting to play the best Foundry content have to sift through all these hack jobs. THey will just stay away. So now you have players leaving by the hundreds who have experienced everything the game has(in terms of end game) and the only new players you have joining are those looking for a free game they can max out to in a few days and play the end game, have some fun and leave before the month is done.
Real great way to build a community there...oh wait, its a horrible idea.
I'll tell you what, if you name a game that's as thin on end game content, still existing today, or has less alternate areas for xp, then I'll take your point into consideration. As of this moment, this game is linear to the point of boredom.
I personally don't like regrinding alts, I only do it when there is a need for other builds to do game content like dungeons. If there is not enough game content for the players to experience then that is not the community's fault, it's the game designer's. They think they can throw out the bare minimum and expect people to not blow through it in a week? I know people who legit got to max in other games in days on their mains, they ground it out in duo's or trios and blew through the game content, and were grinding alts before I finished half way through on my first character. Some people just want to hit max.
Why is this kindergarten attitude of black/white, no middle ground so acceptable? Did it cross your mind that people may experience enjoyment from the game differently than you?
The only people who legitimately hurt the foundry were blatant exploiters. The other is preference. PW with a knee jerk reaction just stirred up a hornets nest. Also, it seems you thought through some of the effects of allowing people to max characters, but you didn't take it to it's final conclusion... if you let it go on, those people who want to hit max for the sake of hitting max will just up and go away, you said so yourself probably won't stay past beta, and it will be only the people who want story will remain. Sometimes you don't need to gestapo a situation, you just let it work itself out...
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
This eerily reminds when Cryptic did the Mission Architect in City of Heroes/Villains, basically the Foundry for Neverwinter.
Great idea, horribly implemented and of course I pondered this during beta but most of us modders were left out of the Foundry beta.
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popieMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
No, it shouldn't in there. Glad it's gone, gets rid of the idiots who want to play Foundry Farming Simulator 2013 instead of Neverwinter. Won't stop people from making "The Ultimate Grindinator 9,001" for people who want to do that kind of thing, though.
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popieMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This eerily reminds when Cryptic did the Mission Architect in City of Heroes/Villains, basically the Foundry for Neverwinter.
Great idea, horribly implemented and of course I pondered this during beta but most of us modders were left out of the Foundry beta.
Well yeah, they pretty much stole the code from CoX, implemented into STO, and then put it in Neverwinter, however we still don't have a bloody Foundry system in Champions Online. ((WHY!?!?!?)
Well yeah, they pretty much stole the code from CoX, implemented into STO, and then put it in Neverwinter, however we still don't have a bloody Foundry system in Champions Online. ((WHY!?!?!?)
Atari rushed the launch of CO and it would be to much work to put the foundry into a game with an average playerbase. Just not worth it.
Atari rushed the launch of CO and it would be to much work to put the foundry into a game with an average playerbase. Just not worth it.
Yeah, now that Cryptic has Neverwinter basically launched, and CO is just a cash cow. 2 years ago, however, it would have been perfect to come out. High playerbase post-Free to play, a slew of new content coming(Although, to be honest, that wasn't really "Content".), ect.
If that happens, wouldn't all the story quests filter to the top of the boards as there will only be story players around and thus doing the voting?
Even story players want to be rewarded. This is an RPG after all, and rewards are closely tied to progression. If I or other story players want pure story, we'd be reading a book (and I certainly do), written by, y'know, professional writers. RPGs are about more than story, they're also about advancing your character and thereby making a narrative with it. Not to mention combat gameplay and stories to be told by that, after all, "story" doesn't just mean dialogue.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
Even story players want to be rewarded. This is an RPG after all, and rewards are closely tied to progression. If I or other story players want pure story, we'd be reading a book (and I certainly do). RPGs are about more than story, they're also about advancing your character and thereby making a narrative with it.
Yes, and if they un-nerfed xp, all the people grinding xp would hit max level and then leave according to hercooles130uscg's post. This would leave a game full of people that care about story, which is what hercooles130uscg says he or she wants. So by this logic, people that want story to be the focus should want xp/drop rates reverted. As it is now, it simply takes more grinding, which means the people who don't care about story will be around longer (because the grinders will stay, they want to "win" the grind by being first to max).
The proper way to deal with these people is to ignore them and simply not caring about their grinding and achievements (see the general discussion thread by started someone who got to 60 in three hours and had to make a thread to brag about it). It got pages up replies, so next up will be the copycat/speed grinder threads.
From my description for my content for another game: "Magic levels are low, there are few +2 items. Don't worry about that, xxxxxxx isn't a module about "powering up"." You know what? Story players love it, it's currently rated in the top 10 of the more than 600 adventures released for that game. If someone posts that they brought in the Sword of Uber-ness and just hacked through everything and it was stupid because they could just one shot everything, I just say "ok, good for you" and the story posters laugh at them.
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thecainMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Here's what they did: They promised the Foundry as another way to play the game, where there was endless content where you would be rewarded, no matter your playstyle. Then they nerfed it with a 4 hour "no quest EXP LOLOLOLOL" thing, then they stripped out the EXP and loot, making it so the Foundry isn't even worth it anymore, so you'd be forced into doing their crappy, cookie cutter content.
They released the game literally in an Early Beta form, there is little to no end-game content, save for running higher versions of the older dungeons (and you can only queue for 3 at a time), and they released it with only 4 classes, 5 counting the variations on the fighter class, wit 2 more supposedly in the making. They rushed this game out the door, and it doesn't have the amount of content and polish needed. They expected you to wait and the gates grinding, and are fully willing to force you into that so you can experience THEIR game, rather than play the game the way you want to play.
No, I'm not saying this as someone that rushed to end-game then started whining. I'm stuck in the mid 30s, bored as hell since I can't do foundries to mix it up a bit, and get good gear. I'm saying this as someone that's watching them cut off the one source for extra content that they had, which only seems to be appeasing people who think we should be playing their stories FOR THE LOVE OF THE STORY WE ARE SO MUCH BETTER WITHOUT YOU OMG GET OUT OF MY GAME. Certainly a health attitude for a socially driven game like an MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE role playing game, eh?
All we need are tabs. XP tabs, Story tabs, etc etc etc. Modes. That way I can run in and play gauntlet style have n' slash, and you can all prance around in the story editor where your character King Derpyderp, the lost son of Goku, and also a clone of Ichigo Kurosaki, can finally save the Land of Ninja World from the evil Madara Uchiha, since he already killed Naruto and now your character is the only one who can save the world, but you need OUR characters help to uncover the ancient Poneglyphs of Celestia so that you can finally build the ancient cannon of rainbow love miracles that will turn your character into a Half Demon God so he can wield the Shintetsusaiga (which is more powerful than the Tetsusaiga!) so he finally kill Madara once and for all!
Yes, and if they un-nerfed xp, all the people grinding xp would hit max level and then leave according to hercooles130uscg's post. This would leave a game full of people that care about story, which is what hercooles130uscg says he or she wants. So by this logic, people that want story to be the focus should want xp/drop rates reverted. As it is now, it simply takes more grinding, which means the people who don't care about story will be around longer (because the grinders will stay, they want to "win" the grind by being first to max).
The proper way to deal with these people is to ignore them and simply not caring about their grinding and achievements (see the general discussion thread by started someone who got to 60 in three hours and had to make a thread to brag about it). It got pages up replies, so next up will be the copycat/speed grinder threads.
Sure, I agree with that. The point is that I want the Foundry to be fun now and in the future (for alts, because at 60 I'm going to check out the max level stuff, then immediately make a new character and do more Foundry missions).
Right now it isn't fun knowing that I'm getting stuck with utter <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for - usually more - effort than the grindy Cryptic content I don't actually want to play that much.
That's why I'm annoyed and posting here to say I want it un-nerfed.
BUT! And this is a big one, I DO want them to fix the exploits. However, that doesn't in ANY WAY entail keeping this ridiculous game breaking nerf in place.
It's a simple matter of making mobs that can't damage the player reset/evade/invincible. And for the other type of thing, making mobs not give xp for dying from fall damage.
Boom. Not rocket science. In terms of code required to do it, it isn't even very complicated.
This nerf is not a "fix" to anything. It's a bludgeon to the best part of the game.
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
It's not a matter of nerf the exploit.
I ran 2 hours of foundry content tonight and earned a total of 3,924 XP, both combat-medium (heavier toward the end).
Running three standard quests in 45 minutes garnered me 7,947 on a same level character, for lower level quests (-4 to my level).
This is at level 15-ish.
I have thread where I am running up an alt on Foundry quests only. A character on Foundry only content will take literally twice the amount of time.
Unacceptable.
Additionally, item drops are literally 4x in standard content. Two blues, 23 greens, 14 scrolls, 32 potions in official content.
Foundry? 5 greens, 23 whites (including every foundry chest award) and 8 potions, 5 scrolls.
Devs have stated they want to give the same rewards for Foundry as standard content - it can't be otherwise, or you lose people doing Foundry content. They need to examine this or they have severely violated thier mission statement.
BUT! And this is a big one, I DO want them to fix the exploits. However, that doesn't in ANY WAY entail keeping this ridiculous game breaking nerf in place.
It's a simple matter of making mobs that can't damage the player reset/evade/invincible. And for the other type of thing, making mobs not give xp for dying from fall damage.
Boom. Not rocket science. In terms of code required to do it, it isn't even very complicated.
This nerf is not a "fix" to anything. It's a bludgeon to the best part of the game.
Unfortunately this is the 'easiest' way to "fix" it.
Again its really a shame they kept the Beta off limits to the Foundry to some of us that could have pointed all this out.
When they did the Mission Architect in CoH/V, again awesome, awesome idea to create our own comic stories!
However Power Leveling was totally rampant, I did not participate in that however the only way it did affect me was:
1. the chat channels were spammed about running PL missions and charging people to to do these 'run' throughs and
2. these PL'd characters were awful to group with LOL! Lots of "I didnt know I could do that" and "I can do what?" from not knowing thier skills, powers, etc available to them by not playing their characters.
Other than that (mostly the PL spamming) I dont care who gets to what level or how they did it or how quickly, I am here to enjoy the missions and at the end of a long day to just have fun. Let it ride
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thecainMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's a simple matter of making mobs that can't damage the player reset/evade/invincible. And for the other type of thing, making mobs not give xp for dying from fall damage.
Boom. Not rocket science. In terms of code required to do it, it isn't even very complicated.
This nerf is not a "fix" to anything. It's a bludgeon to the best part of the game.
This is what a lot of games do. If an enemy can't reach you, they turn to you, attack a bit, then reset and jump to full health. In this case, you hit the Ogres, the Ogres turn to you, walk, hit the wall, then if they can't complete the path, evade-evade-evade and fully heal. It's a fun little system that fixes everything, and I don't see why it wasn't used here, or at the very least, why all players have to be punished because of the exploit abusers.
I used the Foundry to do Hack n' Slash, to duel with big, powerful mobs, or smash through smaller groups while nearly dying because of it, just so it'd be something different/unique. Now I can't even have that, and have no interest in playing the game, save for logging in to get celestial coins, hoping they'll get their heads out of their collective butts and realize this was a bad idea. No one loves an Ostrich, except maybe Austin Roberts.
I've got to throw my hat in with the rest of you fine, fine folks here.
I was a lover of the Blood and Sand mission. It was sweet, simple, and did it's job of giving me a quick mission, with a fairly archetypal mission: "Kill the bad man, save the innocent women!" ...It was satisfying to do it the first time with my friends, and again later because we enjoyed the sweet simplicity. We got a decent bang for our buck, too. The Foundries were a nice way for us to top off our experience, and I've found some great missions in there to keep me coming back (Dungeons of Dread, and the Hidden Blade stuff) but...if there's no more "bang" involved..
What's my real reason to go there in a video game? If I want an interactive story and nothing else...I'm not going to play a video game. I have many books to turn to. I want story, yes. But I also want the enjoyment of clobbering my way through a horde of Rotters and sorry <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> of gnolls, and being rewarded at the end of it all, both through the story, and through the game itself giving me my positive reinforcement for completing it.
With this cap, nerf, whatever it's going to be called in the next few days...I'm finding myself lacking a motivator to go into the Foundry. Which is genuinely a shame, but in an MMO, story is only part of the appeal.
I ran 2 hours of foundry content tonight and earned a total of 3,924 XP, both combat-medium (heavier toward the end).
Running three standard quests in 45 minutes garnered me 7,947 on a same level character, for lower level quests (-4 to my level).
This is at level 15-ish.
I have thread where I am running up an alt on Foundry quests only. A character on Foundry only content will take literally twice the amount of time.
Unacceptable.
Additionally, item drops are literally 4x in standard content. Two blues, 23 greens, 14 scrolls, 32 potions in official content.
Foundry? 5 greens, 23 whites (including every foundry chest award) and 8 potions, 5 scrolls.
Devs have stated they want to give the same rewards for Foundry as standard content - it can't be otherwise, or you lose people doing Foundry content. They need to examine this or they have severely violated thier mission statement.
Absolutely great data... people need to listen to this.
The foundry needs to give the same rewards as official content, or nobody will play it. Period. You can talk all you want about idealistic story-focused players, but be honest -- this is an ARPG-esque MMO that's about killing dudes and taking their lewt. While there's a tiny (and I'm going to say insignificantly tiny) pocket of people who's happy to play stories even there's no reward... there's no reason for Cryptic to pander to them over the rest of the playerbase. I consider myself one of those people who's happy to play stories with little to no reward, btw; one of my favorite COH MA story arcs was "Signal:Noise", a horror quest that had barely any fighting (and thus xp), but the story and the mood were second-to-none.
I ran 2 hours of foundry content tonight and earned a total of 3,924 XP, both combat-medium (heavier toward the end).
Running three standard quests in 45 minutes garnered me 7,947 on a same level character, for lower level quests (-4 to my level).
This is at level 15-ish.
I have thread where I am running up an alt on Foundry quests only. A character on Foundry only content will take literally twice the amount of time.
Unacceptable.
Additionally, item drops are literally 4x in standard content. Two blues, 23 greens, 14 scrolls, 32 potions in official content.
Foundry? 5 greens, 23 whites (including every foundry chest award) and 8 potions, 5 scrolls.
Devs have stated they want to give the same rewards for Foundry as standard content - it can't be otherwise, or you lose people doing Foundry content. They need to examine this or they have severely violated thier mission statement.
Yeah all of you said is beautiful but you play 2 hours foundry now, before the nerf you had rewarded 2 or 3 times more in exp/drops, + then questing the same story line and boring quests... Foundry now sucks, no drops, no exp why i need to do it? No intresting, only for a good story but yeah people in maxlvl dont want stories i think or only 1 time for a day...
Lets be realistic foundry with the nerf is like a fish without water...
Absolutely great data... people need to listen to this.
The foundry needs to give the same rewards as official content, or nobody will play it. Period. You can talk all you want about idealistic story-focused players, but be honest -- this is an ARPG-esque MMO that's about killing dudes and taking their lewt. While there's a tiny (and I'm going to say insignificantly tiny) pocket of people who's happy to play stories even there's no reward... there's no reason for Cryptic to pander to them over the rest of the playerbase. I consider myself one of those people who's happy to play stories with little to no reward, btw; one of my favorite COH MA story arcs was "Signal:Noise", a horror quest that had barely any fighting (and thus xp), but the story and the mood were second-to-none.
I don't at all mind exploiting being dealt with. But now Foundry quests, especially the worthwhile difficult ones, drain me of consumables. I can't remember the last time i picked up an id scroll and used up the last of them identifying what turned out to be useless junk. I'm not going to run Foundries, no matter how good they are, to drain my resources. I don't even mind the lower xp that much but the rewards are just not there. There are still some drops but three times now the end reward chest has been empty. Scrolls don't drop, potions don't drop (in any real number) and now I'm forced just go grind real world areas just to get consumables. This isn't fyn gameplay.
I like the Foundry, some stuff is brilliant, most is excellent. But the rewards need to be there. The drop/reward rate should be at least equal to grinding old areas. If I keep doing foundries my bags are going to be filled with unidentified items. (I'm probably being dim but I cannot find anyone selling ID Scrolls).
In the end I didn't really care if people wanted to power-level using foundries. It didn't in any way affect me. These changes have and need rethinking.
Absolutely great data... people need to listen to this.
The foundry needs to give the same rewards as official content, or nobody will play it. Period. You can talk all you want about idealistic story-focused players, but be honest -- this is an ARPG-esque MMO that's about killing dudes and taking their lewt. While there's a tiny (and I'm going to say insignificantly tiny) pocket of people who's happy to play stories even there's no reward... there's no reason for Cryptic to pander to them over the rest of the playerbase. I consider myself one of those people who's happy to play stories with little to no reward, btw; one of my favorite COH MA story arcs was "Signal:Noise", a horror quest that had barely any fighting (and thus xp), but the story and the mood were second-to-none.
Unfortunately, people like this (and people like me) are very much the exception and not the rule. Not just in gaming, either. It's a sad reflection on the human condition. (almost) Everyone wants to be rewarded in a material fashion.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
Unfortunately this is the 'easiest' way to "fix" it.
Again its really a shame they kept the Beta off limits to the Foundry to some of us that could have pointed all this out.
As someone who was in the Foundry beta, what makes you think this wasn't pointed out?
Comments
So. Yes, i want the foundry xp back. I want 60. Like right now Why? I enjoy it. This is a game i want to have fun in, and that is how I have fun. The only way this affects other foundry authors is that their content gets lost in the heap of "MAKE OGERS [sic] FLY OFF OF THIS PLATFORM v3004"
Give us some better search functions, and a way to categorize what's available. This problem goes away in MINUTES.
HOWEVER. I would also play the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of this. You want to engage me with 10 hours of well done dialogue in a player made MMO quest made to rival better tabletop games? That is WHY i wanted foundry in the first place.
I have some issues with the tool in general, but i realize that there are going to be some growing pains. Let us play the game like we want to play. We have an infinite potential for content, LET US USE IT.
I personally enjoy the gameplay in this game, but there are times where I feel I need to grind experience just to stay equal level to the content I am playing.....specifically right now I was level 21 with 7 bars to go, and the only quests available are labeled as level 23. I could power through the quests but it would be more difficult than if I was level appropriate, so I decided to do an ogre grind map (that is, you fight ogres that do fight back), it was a small one with only 20 ogres, but after killing 2-3 ogres I quite literally took a 2-3 minute break so I could continue getting experience......I actually typed my first post during one of my breaks.
I just finished the map and I have obtained roughly 16 bars worth of experience (I leveled to 22 and got nearly halfway through it). Considering I am playing a GWF, it took me around a minute to kill each ogre, that works out to around an hour of play time (with kill speed + travel time + waiting so I get more experience)......pretty sure if I had quests my level I could level in a half hour or so.
I understand the need to stop the exploit, but why should grinding mobs give me considerably less experience than grinding quests, when there are not enough quests to take you from 1-60 on quests and the mob kills you get during them?
This exactly. I mean, making it so they're invincible if they can't land any attacks is not hard. Seriously. If they don't have line of sight/can't execute an attack and the player is within some reasonable distance, boom, reset/invincible. GW2 does this. It's a matter of not much more than an if statement and a raycast, though you could probably even do it more optimally than that.
The no XP from mobs that die to fall damage is also super goddang easy. In the check for fall damage, check to see if they die, if they do, don't award XP (or check the type of damage in the death functionality, depending on how the code is set up).
This "fix" (nerfing everything to unplayability) is exactly a bunch of lazy duct tape, and probably wasn't any easier than the real fix.
solid /10chars
Thumbs up /20char
Exploits are bad destroying the foundry for all but the most anal sadcases is far far worse.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
Wrong, wrong, and wrong. City of Heroes -started- the Foundry thing and it had a ton of Exp Farming maps; people did those just as much as the dev-provided content until the very end when it shut down. If anything it keeps people around who like to make alts but don't wanna do the same dang story quests(besides the Bag-giving ones, anyways) again. Lord knows that's what made me quit SWTOR...I refuse to do Tattooine ever again after 3 max lvl chars, among other areas.
One guy was lvling his Wizard PURELY by reviewing people's legitimate Foundry maps. But now he can't, because the exp gains randomly stop entirely. On the kiting farming maps I played, I used to get a full level's worth by the end of the run, and a few nice drops along the way; after the patch, I don't even get 3 bars of exp from the same exact map, and I saw maybe 4 drops, tops. They nerfed it -into the ground-.
Bottom line should be: Rather than nerf the **** out of the fun parts of the Foundry, fix the actual problems with the AI not being able to fight back. WoW has the Evade system when a mob can't hit you, and it's what, 8 years old now? It can't be that complicated to implement an Evasion system for mobs that can't pathfind to hit a player after X seconds. Fix what's broken, not break what's fun.
I am sorry, that is the kind of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that gives the Foundry a bad name, and it might attract players, but only the players this game does not want. The same players that will just get to 60 and in a few months leave to a new game anyways. Sure they played the heck out of the Foundry to power level, but once they hit max level, what point is there? They already proved they don't care about the story telling, and all the players that wanted story telling (and the good authors as well) have already left the game because it was overrun by the same mindless grinders as EVERY OTHER SINGLE MMO.
There comes a time when this "everyone has their own playstyle" mentality just has to be thrown out the window, because some games can not accommodate them all and still stay true to what it was meant to be.
As too all the players "but I want to grind out alts fast!"
Name ONE SINGLE MMO where you can get (as members of my guild did) 3-4 levels 60s in the first week of beta without even trying. THAT is what was happening.
How is this kind of playstyle even good for the game? How long before all my guild members just leave because they have experienced ALL the end-game content on several characters, don't care about the Foundry, and don't care about the leveling experience.
I bet most of them will be gone before Open Beta ends.
But in the mean time, they soured the name of the Foundry, players generally interested hear it is just a horrible experience to author for because your 100 hours worth of work are buried under 50 5-minute hack job XP trainers, and players wanting to play the best Foundry content have to sift through all these hack jobs. THey will just stay away. So now you have players leaving by the hundreds who have experienced everything the game has(in terms of end game) and the only new players you have joining are those looking for a free game they can max out to in a few days and play the end game, have some fun and leave before the month is done.
Real great way to build a community there...oh wait, its a horrible idea.
I'll tell you what, if you name a game that's as thin on end game content, still existing today, or has less alternate areas for xp, then I'll take your point into consideration. As of this moment, this game is linear to the point of boredom.
I personally don't like regrinding alts, I only do it when there is a need for other builds to do game content like dungeons. If there is not enough game content for the players to experience then that is not the community's fault, it's the game designer's. They think they can throw out the bare minimum and expect people to not blow through it in a week? I know people who legit got to max in other games in days on their mains, they ground it out in duo's or trios and blew through the game content, and were grinding alts before I finished half way through on my first character. Some people just want to hit max.
Why is this kindergarten attitude of black/white, no middle ground so acceptable? Did it cross your mind that people may experience enjoyment from the game differently than you?
The only people who legitimately hurt the foundry were blatant exploiters. The other is preference. PW with a knee jerk reaction just stirred up a hornets nest. Also, it seems you thought through some of the effects of allowing people to max characters, but you didn't take it to it's final conclusion... if you let it go on, those people who want to hit max for the sake of hitting max will just up and go away, you said so yourself probably won't stay past beta, and it will be only the people who want story will remain. Sometimes you don't need to gestapo a situation, you just let it work itself out...
Great idea, horribly implemented and of course I pondered this during beta but most of us modders were left out of the Foundry beta.
Atari rushed the launch of CO and it would be to much work to put the foundry into a game with an average playerbase. Just not worth it.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
Yeah, now that Cryptic has Neverwinter basically launched, and CO is just a cash cow. 2 years ago, however, it would have been perfect to come out. High playerbase post-Free to play, a slew of new content coming(Although, to be honest, that wasn't really "Content".), ect.
Even story players want to be rewarded. This is an RPG after all, and rewards are closely tied to progression. If I or other story players want pure story, we'd be reading a book (and I certainly do), written by, y'know, professional writers. RPGs are about more than story, they're also about advancing your character and thereby making a narrative with it. Not to mention combat gameplay and stories to be told by that, after all, "story" doesn't just mean dialogue.
The proper way to deal with these people is to ignore them and simply not caring about their grinding and achievements (see the general discussion thread by started someone who got to 60 in three hours and had to make a thread to brag about it). It got pages up replies, so next up will be the copycat/speed grinder threads.
From my description for my content for another game: "Magic levels are low, there are few +2 items. Don't worry about that, xxxxxxx isn't a module about "powering up"." You know what? Story players love it, it's currently rated in the top 10 of the more than 600 adventures released for that game. If someone posts that they brought in the Sword of Uber-ness and just hacked through everything and it was stupid because they could just one shot everything, I just say "ok, good for you" and the story posters laugh at them.
They released the game literally in an Early Beta form, there is little to no end-game content, save for running higher versions of the older dungeons (and you can only queue for 3 at a time), and they released it with only 4 classes, 5 counting the variations on the fighter class, wit 2 more supposedly in the making. They rushed this game out the door, and it doesn't have the amount of content and polish needed. They expected you to wait and the gates grinding, and are fully willing to force you into that so you can experience THEIR game, rather than play the game the way you want to play.
No, I'm not saying this as someone that rushed to end-game then started whining. I'm stuck in the mid 30s, bored as hell since I can't do foundries to mix it up a bit, and get good gear. I'm saying this as someone that's watching them cut off the one source for extra content that they had, which only seems to be appeasing people who think we should be playing their stories FOR THE LOVE OF THE STORY WE ARE SO MUCH BETTER WITHOUT YOU OMG GET OUT OF MY GAME. Certainly a health attitude for a socially driven game like an MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE role playing game, eh?
All we need are tabs. XP tabs, Story tabs, etc etc etc. Modes. That way I can run in and play gauntlet style have n' slash, and you can all prance around in the story editor where your character King Derpyderp, the lost son of Goku, and also a clone of Ichigo Kurosaki, can finally save the Land of Ninja World from the evil Madara Uchiha, since he already killed Naruto and now your character is the only one who can save the world, but you need OUR characters help to uncover the ancient Poneglyphs of Celestia so that you can finally build the ancient cannon of rainbow love miracles that will turn your character into a Half Demon God so he can wield the Shintetsusaiga (which is more powerful than the Tetsusaiga!) so he finally kill Madara once and for all!
... My brain hurts just from typing all that out.
Right now it isn't fun knowing that I'm getting stuck with utter <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> for - usually more - effort than the grindy Cryptic content I don't actually want to play that much.
That's why I'm annoyed and posting here to say I want it un-nerfed.
BUT! And this is a big one, I DO want them to fix the exploits. However, that doesn't in ANY WAY entail keeping this ridiculous game breaking nerf in place.
It's a simple matter of making mobs that can't damage the player reset/evade/invincible. And for the other type of thing, making mobs not give xp for dying from fall damage.
Boom. Not rocket science. In terms of code required to do it, it isn't even very complicated.
This nerf is not a "fix" to anything. It's a bludgeon to the best part of the game.
I ran 2 hours of foundry content tonight and earned a total of 3,924 XP, both combat-medium (heavier toward the end).
Running three standard quests in 45 minutes garnered me 7,947 on a same level character, for lower level quests (-4 to my level).
This is at level 15-ish.
I have thread where I am running up an alt on Foundry quests only. A character on Foundry only content will take literally twice the amount of time.
Unacceptable.
Additionally, item drops are literally 4x in standard content. Two blues, 23 greens, 14 scrolls, 32 potions in official content.
Foundry? 5 greens, 23 whites (including every foundry chest award) and 8 potions, 5 scrolls.
Devs have stated they want to give the same rewards for Foundry as standard content - it can't be otherwise, or you lose people doing Foundry content. They need to examine this or they have severely violated thier mission statement.
Unfortunately this is the 'easiest' way to "fix" it.
Again its really a shame they kept the Beta off limits to the Foundry to some of us that could have pointed all this out.
When they did the Mission Architect in CoH/V, again awesome, awesome idea to create our own comic stories!
However Power Leveling was totally rampant, I did not participate in that however the only way it did affect me was:
1. the chat channels were spammed about running PL missions and charging people to to do these 'run' throughs and
2. these PL'd characters were awful to group with LOL! Lots of "I didnt know I could do that" and "I can do what?" from not knowing thier skills, powers, etc available to them by not playing their characters.
Other than that (mostly the PL spamming) I dont care who gets to what level or how they did it or how quickly, I am here to enjoy the missions and at the end of a long day to just have fun. Let it ride
This is what a lot of games do. If an enemy can't reach you, they turn to you, attack a bit, then reset and jump to full health. In this case, you hit the Ogres, the Ogres turn to you, walk, hit the wall, then if they can't complete the path, evade-evade-evade and fully heal. It's a fun little system that fixes everything, and I don't see why it wasn't used here, or at the very least, why all players have to be punished because of the exploit abusers.
I used the Foundry to do Hack n' Slash, to duel with big, powerful mobs, or smash through smaller groups while nearly dying because of it, just so it'd be something different/unique. Now I can't even have that, and have no interest in playing the game, save for logging in to get celestial coins, hoping they'll get their heads out of their collective butts and realize this was a bad idea. No one loves an Ostrich, except maybe Austin Roberts.
I was a lover of the Blood and Sand mission. It was sweet, simple, and did it's job of giving me a quick mission, with a fairly archetypal mission: "Kill the bad man, save the innocent women!" ...It was satisfying to do it the first time with my friends, and again later because we enjoyed the sweet simplicity. We got a decent bang for our buck, too. The Foundries were a nice way for us to top off our experience, and I've found some great missions in there to keep me coming back (Dungeons of Dread, and the Hidden Blade stuff) but...if there's no more "bang" involved..
What's my real reason to go there in a video game? If I want an interactive story and nothing else...I'm not going to play a video game. I have many books to turn to. I want story, yes. But I also want the enjoyment of clobbering my way through a horde of Rotters and sorry <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> of gnolls, and being rewarded at the end of it all, both through the story, and through the game itself giving me my positive reinforcement for completing it.
With this cap, nerf, whatever it's going to be called in the next few days...I'm finding myself lacking a motivator to go into the Foundry. Which is genuinely a shame, but in an MMO, story is only part of the appeal.
What better happen when Paladins are introduced someday...A glorious union it shall be.
The foundry needs to give the same rewards as official content, or nobody will play it. Period. You can talk all you want about idealistic story-focused players, but be honest -- this is an ARPG-esque MMO that's about killing dudes and taking their lewt. While there's a tiny (and I'm going to say insignificantly tiny) pocket of people who's happy to play stories even there's no reward... there's no reason for Cryptic to pander to them over the rest of the playerbase. I consider myself one of those people who's happy to play stories with little to no reward, btw; one of my favorite COH MA story arcs was "Signal:Noise", a horror quest that had barely any fighting (and thus xp), but the story and the mood were second-to-none.
Getting good content to players in the Foundry - challenges and solutions
Handle: @zaphtastic
Yeah all of you said is beautiful but you play 2 hours foundry now, before the nerf you had rewarded 2 or 3 times more in exp/drops, + then questing the same story line and boring quests... Foundry now sucks, no drops, no exp why i need to do it? No intresting, only for a good story but yeah people in maxlvl dont want stories i think or only 1 time for a day...
Lets be realistic foundry with the nerf is like a fish without water...
Well said, QFE
I like the Foundry, some stuff is brilliant, most is excellent. But the rewards need to be there. The drop/reward rate should be at least equal to grinding old areas. If I keep doing foundries my bags are going to be filled with unidentified items. (I'm probably being dim but I cannot find anyone selling ID Scrolls).
In the end I didn't really care if people wanted to power-level using foundries. It didn't in any way affect me. These changes have and need rethinking.
Unfortunately, people like this (and people like me) are very much the exception and not the rule. Not just in gaming, either. It's a sad reflection on the human condition. (almost) Everyone wants to be rewarded in a material fashion.