I think they need to bring back the exp and possibly drops because if you spend an hour in a foundry killing dungeon-like mobs why should it be any less experience than developer made dungeon-like mobs? I should be able to use whatever content I want to level. The foundry was an amazing feature, and now I feel like they pretty much killed it. I get not wanting "ogres in a box." I say just make mobs "evade" so that way they can't be exploited. That would solve pretty much everything. If not, then have some people watching the foundry and taking out the exploited content maps.
It seems that nowadays many players are obsessed with maxing XP and getting to cap as fast as possible. Is not the levelling process enjoyable too? What is there at cap that is so brilliant that we must all get there in a rush? We often hear moans that there is no end game content, so why the need to get there so fast.
I would play good Foundry quests purely for fun and a light reward; but I guess there are a lot of players who seem to see MMOs simply as challenge to amass a set of “hi-scores”.
But it is horses for courses and boat floating I guess.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
The main problem I see is that the reduced EXP makes foundry missions a waste of time compared to other PvE content now. Before it was a viable alternative to the (admittedly pretty awful) Cryptic made PvE offerings. A rising tide lifts all boats, and the environment before where people would turn to Foundry missions to supplement or even replace repetitive, static PvE meant more exposure for authors and more support for one of the games major selling points. Obviously "pres butan get level" type maps were harmful, but an across the board change is going to stifle Foundry development before it even has a chance to take off.
0
stavarousMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
to be honest I've not noticed a lack of EXP. Mobs still seem to be giving the same EXP % they were before. But to be honest, I never really paid attention to how much the foundry quest itself gave for EXP.
Why this is objectively bad, or even bad for you as someone who enjoys the process?
Why is it objectively good? I can explain why it's bad, as I have to you in other similar threads.
It's bad because it can damage the overall longevity of the game.
It's bad because players will spend less time logged in to the game overall when they get bored of end-game content. Again, longevity of the game.
It's bad because it's a slap in the face to the creative and game developers that spent literally months designing the leveling experience. Honestly, the main story is really not grindy and you get pretty awesome rewards for them, so I don't see why it seems a good idea to skip over it entirely by grinding exploit maps.
Alone in the darkness, that is where you truly discover yourself. Without self, without the core of your identity, you are nothing. - Rasmenar
On an interesting note, it does seem like they just added an exp cap in foundries. On the 5th pull of one of my favorite foundries we stopped getting exp. We waited a little bit, did a large 6 pull and gained a TINY bit of exp. I love this map, it's not "exploity" at all, but I want a reasonable reward for the time I put in.
Why is it objectively good? I can explain why it's bad, as I have to you in other similar threads.
It's bad because it can damage the overall longevity of the game.
It's bad because players will spend less time logged in to the game overall when they get bored of end-game content. Again, longevity of the game.
It's bad because it's a slap in the face to the creative and game developers that spent literally months designing the leveling experience. Honestly, the main story is really not grindy and you get pretty awesome rewards for them, so I don't see why it seems a good idea to skip over it entirely by grinding exploit maps.
You haven't explained why it's bad, only that you feel these things are bad. In other games, you can create max level characters right off the bat. Those games are doing just fine.
In fact, since Foundry content scales to level there is no lack of end game content. All Foundry content is end game content. Shortly after open beta launched, a Cryptic employee posted that over 600 quests had been published, with another 15,000 in progress. City of Heroes wound up with around 400,000 user made quests. Are you saying if Neverwinter gets that many, that there will be a "lack of end game content"?
People obviously want to play end game content. Making them grind up to it makes them more likely to leave, which will actually shorten the lifetime of the game.
"its bad because it's a slap in the face..." So we should laud the developers of bad games for their hard work? Let's give out participation ribbons for all contestants!
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
They have done a good job of policing and laying down the banhammer, why reduce the xp?
Reducing xp costs them less time (and thus money), than having their people policing and banhammering.
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siskaxxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 15Arc User
edited May 2013
I know my post will get lost in the grey space that all these threads become but here are my thoughts.
When you make a game that will let you be max level in a week’s time (or less) and then make the only thing to do, give you no reward you make a game with a one week retention.
At 60 if I want to level a pet I can’t do it in the foundry.
At 60 if I want to run some missions for fun I have to use pots and other things that take gold to buy but there is no return from the mission.
Why did you build a bonus exp system for the foundry if you nerf what you can get out of it.
Last but not least. When I fight mobs I want loot to drop. I want a chance for a blue to drop I want to feel like I’m progressing.
I feel let down by the game and I will not be running any foundry missions
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rayni250Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Who cares? Foundry quests are mostly long and tedious, I wouldn't even run them if it weren't for the daily. There is SO many ways to level quickly in this game, I don't need foundry exploit exp, I'm all set on that, thanks.
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drakedge2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
How were you screwed over? It's not like without the foundry grind quests those players all the sudden want to play "story driven" quests. They go to whatever is next best to grind and never step foot into the foundry.
People who created actual content were pushed off of the search pages with nothing but "Training grounds XxxXXx" and "easy killfest" grind quests clogging up the system. Making it so that the content with actual meaning was unable to be found. Thus discouraging authors from making real quests.
What is the point of spending 72 hours making a solid 20 minute quest if someone that spends 5 minutes in the foundry has ten thousand more plays, and is all over the search inside the foundry ensuring even more plays?
People who created actual content were pushed off of the search pages with nothing but "Training grounds XxxXXx" and "easy killfest" grind quests clogging up the system.
Cryptic didn't nerf exp/loot because they think it's the right thing to do, they only did it because of the amount of complaining there was. If they think people shouldn't have a leveling advantage over other people, they wouldn't have sold founder packs with a 7-day early access. Cryptic obviously didn't very much care about a certain group of people having an advantage as long as they get paid.
And seriously what's wrong with exploit maps? How is a person, whom you don't know, hitting 60 three days before you did affect you in any harmful manner? Is Cryptic giving out a limited amount of epic gear, and their way of distribution is first come first served based on who hits 60 the fastest?
Listen, everyone is going to hit level cap eventually, even exploit maps will stop giving you exp. but with the removal of those maps, and the exp/loot nerf, everyone have lost a consistent mean to farm consumables at level 60. So now are we stuck doing 3 foundries an hour just to earn enough gold to purchase an injury kit?
Or mass killing open world mobs that can 2 shot me just to farm potions? How about being forced to do every single dailies to earn enough diamonds for a scroll that would identify a piece of gear that may or may not be an upgrade for me?
Why am I stuck spending 2 hours after work, just to farm consumables, so I can run a 1 hour dungeon that I most likely will not get a piece of loot that's right for me; instead of spending 10 minutes in a farming map, and the rest of my night enjoying the game's many other aspects?
People who created actual content were pushed off of the search pages with nothing but "Training grounds XxxXXx" and "easy killfest" grind quests clogging up the system. Making it so that the content with actual meaning was unable to be found. Thus discouraging authors from making real quests.
What is the point of spending 72 hours making a solid 20 minute quest if someone that spends 5 minutes in the foundry has ten thousand more plays, and is all over the search inside the foundry ensuring even more plays?
The EXP is fine now in the foundry.
I think the main issue is how the authors aren't being rewarded justly.
Players that enjoy foundry and lores will keep on subscribing to them, grinders will continue to avoid them except for dailies. Reviews and ratings are nothing but a meaningless pat on the back. If they lower the minimum tip of 50 diamonds to maybe 5 to 10, more people are willing to tip? But then if you were to repeat this good foundry time after time, how often are you willing to tip the same author for the same quest? In the end, someone that tips initially will stop. Cryptic should find a better way to reward good authors.
Maybe Cryptic can charge diamonds for every entrance to a farming map? Story quests yield higher reward for authors than the ones that make farming maps?
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drakedge2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Then let's have the foundry you want, let's discourage the people from making engaging content and instead hold on let me delete all my quests and replace them with tiny little 5 minute monster kill fests.
Why not have a better solution, and have a different category for farms?
Then let's have the foundry you want, let's discourage the people from making engaging content and instead hold on let me delete all my quests and replace them with tiny little 5 minute monster kill fests.
Why not have a better solution, and have a different category for farms?
Yeah, having a farm tab (or category) would be the best solution. It was suggested many (MANY) times in COH, and never happened. I'm fairly sure the same thing came up with the STO foundry, and I don't see a farm tab there either.
Why? The answer is simple -- because it'd be admitting defeat, and giving tacit approval of 'farming maps'. It'd compromise The Vision(tm) of the Foundry, and the (perceived) PR backlash from it would be pretty big. And that just won't do.
I seriously doubt there'll ever be a farm tab (or tag) in the NW ingame foundry browser. Of course, I'm prepared to be pleasantly surprised.
I agree, all we needed was a "Farming" category. That's it. With that, everybody would be happy. People who just want to get to end-game faster, or kill a buttload of monsters, or whatever can do so, and people who want to make engaging quests no longer have their content swallowed by the tidal wave of farming maps.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
Then let's have the foundry you want, let's discourage the people from making engaging content and instead hold on let me delete all my quests and replace them with tiny little 5 minute monster kill fests.
Why not have a better solution, and have a different category for farms?
I build content for a game where I have the foundry I want. I can do anything I feel like in my adventures, including handling out +12 Hackmasters of Doom like they are going out of style. In fact I released an adventure for that game at the same time as I released my adventures for this game. That adventure is 10 hours long, and can be completed without ever killing anything or even equipping a weapon (in fact I coded it so that people in the city generally won't talk to you if they see a weapon in your hands). It has some 200,000 words of dialog, about half of that in unabashedly historically accurate Thieves Cant that can send people to the dictionary I included with the adventure. That adventure has 1000x the player time of my Neverwinter Online quests (and since I was in Foundry beta, my content in Neverwinter Online was available from day 1).
Better solution: make mods for a game and players that value the story based content you want to make.
Or you can make the content you want in Neverwinter Online, and not be concerned about how many people are playing it.
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ravenousfireMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 12Arc User
edited May 2013
The foundry was the way I wanted to level up Alts. I thought it was one of the best things about this game that gave the replay factor high marks in my opinion. If they don't bring back XP I won't level an alt through the minimal foundry xp and thin PW story again.
PW you're shooting yourself in the foot on the replayability of this game.
They don't have to call them Farming Maps, just call it 'Traning Area' and 'Story Area'. Knockout the exploit maps, and keep the grind maps that don't have the mobs immobile, and it's all good.
The foundry was the way I wanted to level up Alts. I thought it was one of the best things about this game that gave the replay factor high marks in my opinion. If they don't bring back XP I won't level an alt through the minimal foundry xp and thin PW story again.
PW you're shooting yourself in the foot on the replayability of this game.
They don't have to call them Farming Maps, just call it 'Traning Area' and 'Story Area'. Knockout the exploit maps, and keep the grind maps that don't have the mobs immobile, and it's all good.
Yes, yes, yes. A million times yes! I totally agree. I was really excited about the foundry and now... . I say just make mobs with no pathing available evade or something.
The foundry was the way I wanted to level up Alts. I thought it was one of the best things about this game that gave the replay factor high marks in my opinion. If they don't bring back XP I won't level an alt through the minimal foundry xp and thin PW story again.
PW you're shooting yourself in the foot on the replayability of this game.
They don't have to call them Farming Maps, just call it 'Traning Area' and 'Story Area'. Knockout the exploit maps, and keep the grind maps that don't have the mobs immobile, and it's all good.
I couldn't agree more.....instead of actually fixing the exploits they wrapped some duct tape around the foundry and called it a fix.
What they need to do is revert the foundry experience nerf. And fix the actual exploits. Such as, max of X amount of creatures within a certain radius, if no path can be found to players allow mobs to clip through walls and traps, etc......so many things could be done that would make the exploiting impossible but still allow maps where are actually have to kill everything the normal way to earn your rewards.
Instead, here I am on a hallway of ogres, killing 1-2 then taking a few minute break so I can come back and kill a few more and get experience for it, because there aren't enough quests to keep my level even with the quest levels and I don't like PvP and am not very fond of long-duration dungeons to try to get experience.
EDIT: Why should I be forced to level via PvP or Dungeons that I don't enjoy because the developers couldn't figure out how to stop exploiting without stopping all forms of grinding?
Some idiots obsess over what other people do so no game can ever have fun or interesting things anymore because johnny butthurt will throw a tantrum over it.
Ogres DID give too much exp. Exploit maps are bad. Ok. Fix the problem, don't kill the entire foundry...
I couldn't agree more.....instead of actually fixing the exploits they wrapped some duct tape around the foundry and called it a fix.
What they need to do is revert the foundry experience nerf. And fix the actual exploits. Such as, max of X amount of creatures within a certain radius, if no path can be found to players allow mobs to clip through walls and traps, etc......so many things could be done that would make the exploiting impossible but still allow maps where are actually have to kill everything the normal way to earn your rewards.
Instead, here I am on a hallway of ogres, killing 1-2 then taking a few minute break so I can come back and kill a few more and get experience for it, because there aren't enough quests to keep my level even with the quest levels and I don't like PvP and am not very fond of long-duration dungeons to try to get experience.
EDIT: Why should I be forced to level via PvP or Dungeons that I don't enjoy because the developers couldn't figure out how to stop exploiting without stopping all forms of grinding?
This exactly. This "fix" isn't a fix at all, it's a pathetic bandaid that's punishing everyone *except* the people exploiting.
They need to fix the real issues:
1) Reset/go invincible on NPCs that can't damage a player.
2) Don't give XP from mobs that die from fall damage.
That's not that hard and I say that as a game programmer, so I'm not grossly underestimating work involved. Most other games *already have this*.
Make the author's responsible for the actions they take. cut out bad content and then suspend and ban those who are breaking the rules. 2 bad missions should be enough of a pattern to say to something your breaking the rules, you get a 30 day suspension and on the 3rd one you get a perm ban.
I suggest removing monster kill xp entirely from the foundry. Give MORE xp for completing a mission and scale the xp depending on quest difficulty and estimated time to complete.
Comments
I would play good Foundry quests purely for fun and a light reward; but I guess there are a lot of players who seem to see MMOs simply as challenge to amass a set of “hi-scores”.
But it is horses for courses and boat floating I guess.
Foundry Author! Check out @gemstrike to see my quests
Want to make your own? Then watch my videos.
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Why is it objectively good? I can explain why it's bad, as I have to you in other similar threads.
It's bad because it can damage the overall longevity of the game.
It's bad because players will spend less time logged in to the game overall when they get bored of end-game content. Again, longevity of the game.
It's bad because it's a slap in the face to the creative and game developers that spent literally months designing the leveling experience. Honestly, the main story is really not grindy and you get pretty awesome rewards for them, so I don't see why it seems a good idea to skip over it entirely by grinding exploit maps.
Farming maps and experience gain... yes.
Exploits: NO!
They have done a good job of policing and laying down the banhammer, why reduce the xp?
@kmhknight
My campaign: The Madness Plague.
My quest: Blacklake Gold
My guild: "The Older" Age 30+, Casual
grinding maps, yes. I am a TR i could not do the exploit map anyway lol
In fact, since Foundry content scales to level there is no lack of end game content. All Foundry content is end game content. Shortly after open beta launched, a Cryptic employee posted that over 600 quests had been published, with another 15,000 in progress. City of Heroes wound up with around 400,000 user made quests. Are you saying if Neverwinter gets that many, that there will be a "lack of end game content"?
People obviously want to play end game content. Making them grind up to it makes them more likely to leave, which will actually shorten the lifetime of the game.
"its bad because it's a slap in the face..." So we should laud the developers of bad games for their hard work? Let's give out participation ribbons for all contestants!
When you make a game that will let you be max level in a week’s time (or less) and then make the only thing to do, give you no reward you make a game with a one week retention.
At 60 if I want to level a pet I can’t do it in the foundry.
At 60 if I want to run some missions for fun I have to use pots and other things that take gold to buy but there is no return from the mission.
Why did you build a bonus exp system for the foundry if you nerf what you can get out of it.
Last but not least. When I fight mobs I want loot to drop. I want a chance for a blue to drop I want to feel like I’m progressing.
I feel let down by the game and I will not be running any foundry missions
People who created actual content were pushed off of the search pages with nothing but "Training grounds XxxXXx" and "easy killfest" grind quests clogging up the system. Making it so that the content with actual meaning was unable to be found. Thus discouraging authors from making real quests.
What is the point of spending 72 hours making a solid 20 minute quest if someone that spends 5 minutes in the foundry has ten thousand more plays, and is all over the search inside the foundry ensuring even more plays?
The EXP is fine now in the foundry.
And seriously what's wrong with exploit maps? How is a person, whom you don't know, hitting 60 three days before you did affect you in any harmful manner? Is Cryptic giving out a limited amount of epic gear, and their way of distribution is first come first served based on who hits 60 the fastest?
Listen, everyone is going to hit level cap eventually, even exploit maps will stop giving you exp. but with the removal of those maps, and the exp/loot nerf, everyone have lost a consistent mean to farm consumables at level 60. So now are we stuck doing 3 foundries an hour just to earn enough gold to purchase an injury kit?
Or mass killing open world mobs that can 2 shot me just to farm potions? How about being forced to do every single dailies to earn enough diamonds for a scroll that would identify a piece of gear that may or may not be an upgrade for me?
Why am I stuck spending 2 hours after work, just to farm consumables, so I can run a 1 hour dungeon that I most likely will not get a piece of loot that's right for me; instead of spending 10 minutes in a farming map, and the rest of my night enjoying the game's many other aspects?
I think the main issue is how the authors aren't being rewarded justly.
Players that enjoy foundry and lores will keep on subscribing to them, grinders will continue to avoid them except for dailies. Reviews and ratings are nothing but a meaningless pat on the back. If they lower the minimum tip of 50 diamonds to maybe 5 to 10, more people are willing to tip? But then if you were to repeat this good foundry time after time, how often are you willing to tip the same author for the same quest? In the end, someone that tips initially will stop. Cryptic should find a better way to reward good authors.
Maybe Cryptic can charge diamonds for every entrance to a farming map? Story quests yield higher reward for authors than the ones that make farming maps?
Then let's have the foundry you want, let's discourage the people from making engaging content and instead hold on let me delete all my quests and replace them with tiny little 5 minute monster kill fests.
Why not have a better solution, and have a different category for farms?
Why? The answer is simple -- because it'd be admitting defeat, and giving tacit approval of 'farming maps'. It'd compromise The Vision(tm) of the Foundry, and the (perceived) PR backlash from it would be pretty big. And that just won't do.
I seriously doubt there'll ever be a farm tab (or tag) in the NW ingame foundry browser. Of course, I'm prepared to be pleasantly surprised.
Getting good content to players in the Foundry - challenges and solutions
Handle: @zaphtastic
Better solution: make mods for a game and players that value the story based content you want to make.
Or you can make the content you want in Neverwinter Online, and not be concerned about how many people are playing it.
PW you're shooting yourself in the foot on the replayability of this game.
They don't have to call them Farming Maps, just call it 'Traning Area' and 'Story Area'. Knockout the exploit maps, and keep the grind maps that don't have the mobs immobile, and it's all good.
Yes, yes, yes. A million times yes! I totally agree. I was really excited about the foundry and now...
What they need to do is revert the foundry experience nerf. And fix the actual exploits. Such as, max of X amount of creatures within a certain radius, if no path can be found to players allow mobs to clip through walls and traps, etc......so many things could be done that would make the exploiting impossible but still allow maps where are actually have to kill everything the normal way to earn your rewards.
Instead, here I am on a hallway of ogres, killing 1-2 then taking a few minute break so I can come back and kill a few more and get experience for it, because there aren't enough quests to keep my level even with the quest levels and I don't like PvP and am not very fond of long-duration dungeons to try to get experience.
EDIT: Why should I be forced to level via PvP or Dungeons that I don't enjoy because the developers couldn't figure out how to stop exploiting without stopping all forms of grinding?
Ogres DID give too much exp. Exploit maps are bad. Ok. Fix the problem, don't kill the entire foundry...
This exactly. This "fix" isn't a fix at all, it's a pathetic bandaid that's punishing everyone *except* the people exploiting.
They need to fix the real issues:
1) Reset/go invincible on NPCs that can't damage a player.
2) Don't give XP from mobs that die from fall damage.
That's not that hard and I say that as a game programmer, so I'm not grossly underestimating work involved. Most other games *already have this*.
Simple.