AD&D didn't have Elf as a class. OD&D and Basic are the ones with races-as-class. And they have very limited character customization.
But even then, I'd say that overall, Neverwinter offers about as much actual customizability as you'd get playing its classes in AD&D 1E. It's just organized differently, and equalized among classes, instead of spellcasters getting all the options.
And I would like to see more customization options in Neverwinter, but because I enjoy the gameplay of creating and optimizing builds, not because of PnP D&D. Neverwinter is very clearly D&D in spirit.
I don't know, I think AD&D allowed quite different builds. The system was subtle but had a big impact over what you did in game.
For example:
Spell selection.
Not a seemingly huge change but it has a huge impact on what your character did in game. If you were a cleric that carried mostly offensive spells your were a totally different character than the cleric with all the buffs and heals. Some wizards were artillery others were toolboxes yet others were summoners.
Weapon choice.
A fighter who uses a halberd is totally different than one using a longbow or duel long swords or a shield and axe. They had totally different purposes.
Etc, etc, other stuff.
My point being, some small additions at the start of the game could go a long, long way toward having a much more varied build at the end (Malcolm, 1993).
No not really. I don't get to choose the way my Character is evolving.
You get some choices. Different choices than what you'd get in AD&D 1E.
What if I want a two weapon fighter? Not a thief a fighter with Long sword an short? I want Cleave AND Power Attack. I want a exotic weapon Mercury core Great sword. I don't have these choices.
Yes, you indeed cannot currently be a two-weapon fighter in Neverwinter. But I'm talking about overall breadth of customizability, not literally the same options in both AD&D 1E and Neverwinter.
Cleave and Power Attack don't exist in AD&D 1E. And I'm pretty sure mercury core weapons aren't core AD&D 1E, if they exist at all. I would certainly hope that nobody would expect Neverwinter to have as much customizability as a full edition's worth of splatbooks.
What if I wan access to 1st Lvl Spells?
How would you do this in AD&D 1E? Dual classing wouldn't just give you 1st level spells.
Overall, it sounds like you are talking about D&D 3.5, not AD&D 1E.
Personally, I agree with whoever said the game is much more MMO than AD&D. I still kinda like it and enjoy playing it. I have to give credit to the developers for the beautiful setting and atmosphere, very much "Forgotten Realms" IMO, however, there are several elements which I personally dislike. First of all, let me say that I am not an MMO fan - whether PvP or coop, it's just not my thing. I don't have the time to play all day and feel stupid when having to compete against some teenager without a real life. That said, here are the things I dislike in this game:
1. Everybody running all the time. You can't really immerse and enjoy the beautiful setting with all the players running around and jumping like crazy.
2. Mounts - that makes it even worse. Sorry, my idea of the city of Neverwinter is not crazy players riding their horses, spiders and what not, jumping over people's heads. To make the setting feel "real" you need some sort of order - not allowing people to jump on seller's tables or bars in the taverns. IMO mounts in this game are just vanity items. Why do you need a mount if there is no "wilderness", where you can travel from city to city? I'm not saying the game is not working without "wilderness", however horses are something that is completely useless.
3. Balance between "do-gooders" and "bad guys". I understand that this is a multiplayer game and as such, for some quests you may need to relay on help from other players. But sometimes the help is just too much.
I can go on and on, however, I understand that these are limitations that have been forced by the MMO model. I also appreciate and applaud many of the decisions that developers had to make - e.g. I am very thankful that PvP is limited to arenas and purely optional, so guys like me can enjoy playing the game (unlike, say, Age of Conan, where PvP is mandatory).
we talk about choices, but we cant even make a dwarf meele that uses axes.. There are no Axes in the game, with makes me wonder : How the hell can u have a dwarf race without axes ?
U dont roll for saving throws, u dont roll for initiative.. Charisma gives critical... Sneak atack is so weird in this game.. And.. the game has no axes... it has dwarfs, but dont have axes... no diplomacy... no pick pocket.. no discipline checks.. no checks at all..
it doenst feel its DnD to me, but, then again, u got the foundry, so i would say that this game its in a DnD limbo, or DnD purgatory...
but in my opinion, if it does not feel DnD it is not because of 4th Edition rules, they simply choose 4th Editions rules because it was more easy to go around on it... they could pretty much slash out 3.0 or 3.5 rules to achieve their goal... The reason i said that its because they change the Charisma stats.... Charisma gives critical, and they are no axes... there are dwarfs, but no axes..
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Personally, I agree with whoever said the game is much more MMO than AD&D. I still kinda like it and enjoy playing it. I have to give credit to the developers for the beautiful setting and atmosphere, very much "Forgotten Realms" IMO, however, there are several elements which I personally dislike. First of all, let me say that I am not an MMO fan - whether PvP or coop, it's just not my thing. I don't have the time to play all day and feel stupid when having to compete against some teenager without a real life. That said, here are the things I dislike in this game:
1. Everybody running all the time. You can't really immerse and enjoy the beautiful setting with all the players running around and jumping like crazy.
2. Mounts - that makes it even worse. Sorry, my idea of the city of Neverwinter is not crazy players riding their horses, spiders and what not, jumping over people's heads. To make the setting feel "real" you need some sort of order - not allowing people to jump on seller's tables or bars in the taverns. IMO mounts in this game are just vanity items. Why do you need a mount if there is no "wilderness", where you can travel from city to city? I'm not saying the game is not working without "wilderness", however horses are something that is completely useless.
3. Balance between "do-gooders" and "bad guys". I understand that this is a multiplayer game and as such, for some quests you may need to relay on help from other players. But sometimes the help is just too much.
I can go on and on, however, I understand that these are limitations that have been forced by the MMO model. I also appreciate and applaud many of the decisions that developers had to make - e.g. I am very thankful that PvP is limited to arenas and purely optional, so guys like me can enjoy playing the game (unlike, say, Age of Conan, where PvP is mandatory).
Your complaints are pretty much generic to 4th Edition.
Mage: In what D&D book ever written did a mage NOT get Fireball at some point? I understand the concept behind the "Control Mage." I'm cool with it, but I don't want a "Control Mage." I want a Mage Mage.. You know, one that has spells like "Melf's Acid Arrow", "Fireball", and even something like "Tenser's Floating Disk" (Probably spelled that wrong.)
Cleric: Since when does a cleric throw magical spears in lieu of smashing face with a mace? Waving around a cute little holy symbol incense burner thingy? Really?
The problem is a lack of currently implemented classes and powers. The spells you mentioned does exist, we just don't have the choice yet.
Each class generally had at least 2 features you could choose from in the core rulebook, so while all Cleric powers use Wisdom as their primary attack attribute, they had a choice between melee powers that used Strength for secondary effects and ranged powers that used Charisma for secondary effects.
AD&D which was available pretty early was quite customizable.
That's not true. I played quite a lot of 2e, and still have sourcebooks within reach of my gaming computer. You allocated your stats, picked a race, pick a class or multi-class (including kits), picked your weapon and non-weapon proficiencies, and that was it. If you were human you could choose to dual class later. If you were a caster you picked your spells. That's about it for customization.
Customization and character optimization only really took off with 3e.
- allow different spells to be slotted in casters slots so you can have all CC, all AOE, all single target or any combo.
- allow different weapons to be used by different classes (two weapon fighters, ranged rogues, etc)
These exist in the 4e rule set, it's just not implemented yet. For example, Fighters have several feature sets they could select, two of which are already in the game. The two weapon one is (iirc) Tempest, and not included yet.
People are complaining about a lack of choices when we haven't even been presented with the basic choices yet. We have no Ranger, no Warlock, no Paladin, and no Warlord of any variant, and that's just from 4ePHB1. If they put it all in, you should have both a Str/Dex dual wielding Fighter and a Dex/Str dual wielding Ranger to choose from!
Heck, there's only one Paragon Path per class right now, and there should be four per class from the 4ePHB1 alone.
I see the HP change as a good bit more than a "cosmetic one". It is a total play changer. I don' have to be so mindful of the fight with 1,000+ hit points instead of 56 max.
That's illogical.
If you have 56 hit points and the average attack deals 8 damage, you can take 7 hits.
If you have 1015 hit points and the average attack deals 145 damage, you can take 7 hits.
Inflation of numbers don't do anything other than increasing granularity, allowing for greater variance without significantly affecting balance.
yes most of us remember dice rolls and how to hit an armor class of 0, but this is an MMO and it's different, big deal. You are clinging to an old PnP game from the 90s. Times/games change, either you keep up with them or get left behind...
Neverwinter Nights still exists, btw
game from the 90s? the game i fell in love with and played for decades was created in 1974
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Your complaints are pretty much generic to 4th Edition.
If your GM is describing people as running around all the time and jumping their mounts on bars, I'm pretty sure that's not an edition-related problem.
Honestly, I have idea what in that post makes you think it resembles 4E in any way.
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code004Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited May 2013
If you don't like this version, why not just play D&D?
I never liked D&D, it was too...not a game? It felt like a dungeon simulation to me, more than a game.
This one keeps that dark dungeon crawling in, but also gives me awesome looking skills and faster gameplay that I'm used to, from other, more regular mmorpgs, than what D&D is.
Either way, I don't think the fans of D&D have the right to whine about this game, since there's already a regular D&D game, and no one's forcing you to play this version.
Spell selection.
Not a seemingly huge change but it has a huge impact on what your character did in game. If you were a cleric that carried mostly offensive spells your were a totally different character than the cleric with all the buffs and heals. Some wizards were artillery others were toolboxes yet others were summoners.
Spell selection? You can't leave rules out when comparing rules. You had to roll to see whether or not you could learn a spell, you had to have MAXED your Int not to have these rolls have a significant failure chance, and if you failed the roll you could NEVER learn the spell.
And even then, you got what spells you found in game, and your DM chose what those were.
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adrynbMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 22Arc User
edited May 2013
AD&D the rule set
AD&D the overall brand
This mmo uses the over all brand name, allowing it to use the rich lore of the forgotten realms to create an interesting and fun mmo but doesn't specifically try to use the rule set.
Not using the rule set doesn't make it not D&D, whether you like it or not. If a set of rules is what made it D&D for you then you sure as hell missed a great deal.
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you don't like this version, why not just play D&D?
I never liked D&D, it was too...not a game? It felt like a dungeon simulation to me, more than a game.
If you get the chance, try 4E. It's a very good game first, but with ample support for roleplaying. Don't let the vocal hate you'll see on a lot of D&D boards (including this one) discourage you. It's just a bunch of nerd-rage over things changing.
I largely feel the same way as you do about prior editions of D&D, especially 3.5. 4E was where D&D finally lived up to what I always wanted from it.
Spell selection? You can't leave rules out when comparing rules. You had to roll to see whether or not you could learn a spell, you had to have MAXED your Int not to have these rolls have a significant failure chance, and if you failed the roll you could NEVER learn the spell.
And even then, you got what spells you found in game, and your DM chose what those were.
Yeah I love it when people scream; THIS ISN"T D&D!!!! Yet they seem to forget other rules that wouldn't' work in a MMO, yet not having those doesn't seem to effect thier personal measure of D&D....
4th Edition is not MMO-like in any way. That's illogical.
If you have 56 hit points and the average attack deals 8 damage, you can take 7 hits.
If you have 1015 hit points and the average attack deals 145 damage, you can take 7 hits.
Inflation of numbers don't do anything other than increasing granularity, allowing for greater variance without significantly affecting balance.
We will have to disagree on this!
And I will have to agree with you here. I did not see my character taking huge damage numbers so assumed the damage was more PnP. But if the numbers balance out, why do we need 1,000 HP in the first place?
New D&D, Beloved D&D
Neverwinter is a true Dungeons & Dragons experience, brought to life with the dynamic Cryptic game engine. In the classic AD&D setting of the Forgotten Realms, players will explore and defend one of the most beloved cities from Dungeons & Dragons, as it rises from the ashes of destruction.
A true D&D experience has 4th Lvl fighters with 56 HP or less. Even by 4th Ed rules 1,000 HP is silly.
again.. its not about the Edition Wars.. the main issue is about character creation and how theres not much options regarding customization.. i mean, really, we have dwarfs, but we dont have axes.. I check.. there are swords, theres some kind mace , but no axes..
How can u feel like the king of the mountain without an axe ?
They chalenge some pre-notions of solid concepts to create something that i wouldnt dare say its bold, or inovating.. And again, they did it on 4th edition rules, but they might as well had done on 3.0 or 3.5 Ed, it wouldnt make a diference ..
Spell selection? You can't leave rules out when comparing rules. You had to roll to see whether or not you could learn a spell, you had to have MAXED your Int not to have these rolls have a significant failure chance, and if you failed the roll you could NEVER learn the spell.
And even then, you got what spells you found in game, and your DM chose what those were.
I guess, by the strictest use of the rules.
Really though most DMs would allow players to 'go on a quest' to learn weapon pofs or get spells or whatever so the players could go in the direction they wanted with their character, didn't they?
Most of the time the setting the DM created had a town with trainers, gear and component shops, etc.
But you're right, if your DM was a jerk than he/she could make you sit around in your underwear.
At least in the games I played wizards had a selection of spells. Your games may have varied.
I'm not complaining and I realize the game isn't complete nor am I preaching one set of rules over another.
I'm just making the suggestion that the concept of creating 'your character' is at the heart of D&D, as i played it.
NWO would have more of that 'feel' by allowing more choices IMO.
I realize others prefer the difference between players to come purely from the skill of playing better with the same tools as the next guy.
Particularly in a game has has PvP.
More customization usually means less balance.
I'm just saying what I'd prefer which is more customization, more choices.
again.. its not about the Edition Wars.. the main issue is about character creation and how theres not much options regarding customization.. i mean, really, we have dwarfs, but we dont have axes.. I check.. there are swords, theres some kind mace , but no axes..
How can u feel like the king of the mountain without an axe ?
They chalenge some pre-notions of solid concepts to create something that i wouldnt dare say its bold, or inovating.. And again, they did it on 4th edition rules, but they might as well had done on 3.0 or 3.5 Ed, it wouldnt make a diference ..
A Dwarf with no ax is like a Dwarf with no Beard! It's just wrong and disturbing!
I was about to start a thread about the same topic when I saw this one, now I'm not a hardcore D&D player (in all honesty I didn't play much D&D) and I'm not saying that the game is bad, but this game just doesn't feel D&Dish to me, and hey I'm not asking for a lot here but please allow my mage/wizard (forgot the name) to equip a long sword or let my cleric equip a mace and a shield and don't tie me to a certain class, I mean class specific features are nice, but seriously each class has a set of specific feats and skills? wizards without fireball? has the world gone mad? just by giving us a general feat list from which we could choose (which had class specific feats as well) and allowing all classes to equip all weapons and armors they would increase customization enormously
There is no customization of characters...whether it is skills or spells. Take, for example, a cleric of Sel
**EDIT
Ok then, can't even code a good vBulletin it seems...
Basically my rant was for all the old-school D&D types that know what THAC0 is and remember when elf was a CLASS rather than a race.
So, what you are saying is you want a form of D&D that is 20 years gone?
The first time that a Clerics choice of patron dieties affected spell selection was in 2nd edition.
Elf was not a class in 2nd edition.
Heck, the Forgotten Realms didn't exist as an official campaign setting when Elf and Dwarf were classes.
Look, complain about stuff if you want to, but try to make sure that you are at least making some sense. If you want to drag out some "old school" gaming credentials, I would think that you would want those credentials to sound authentic.
Customization exists here. I get to choose from a number of races and classes, I get to tweak a number of things regarding the appearance of my character, and I even get to pick from a large number of backgrounds and a few dieties.
I get points to slot in particular abilities for my character.
I can select from different feats and choose to add or improve a variety of powers.
Some clerics may sink points into improving their HP while others spend points on other things.
Some clerics may choose to maximize an ability that another cleric doesn't use at all.
How is that not customization?
And I know that it's D&D. It says so at the top of the page. And the Forgotten Realms is a D&D campaign setting. If this wasn't D&D then it couldn't be set in the Forgotten Realms.
Fine but this game is based on the 4th Edition rules as much as you might snear at that rule set. Wizards of the Coast will never again license 3.0 or 3.5 for a new computer game. Now once 5.0 comes out that will become the rule set they license and it looks like they brought back a lot with it so we will see. But while 4.0 is the official D&D version that is the only version you will see licenses for new games.
Except that there is a pathfinder license out there, and that is essentially a refined D&D 3.5. It looks vastly more like D&D than anything I've seen in 4e or NWO. Unfortunately, whoever has the license has essentially no funding and is asking for donations (the kickerstarter doesn't promise anything) so they can build something to scrounge up real funding.
Look at a DDO character with their Hit Points and spell points and then seriously tell me that is different than how hit points are done here.
DDO gives:
4 hp/level wizards/sorcerers
6 hp/level rogues/monks
8 hp/level clerics/rangers
10 hp/level fighters/paladins
12 hp/level barbarians
[there are a few other classes, but I'm even less sure of their hp/level]
+1 hp/level for each 2 points of Constitution over 10.
+30 hp at level 1 (called heroic durability or no more "Ow! My hit point!" This has lead to newbs underestimating the importance of hit points).
[false life items]
[toughness items]
toughness feat [REQUIRED - if you don't know this copy a known good build before playing DDO]
toughness enhancements - DDO specific power creep, expands the toughness feat.
It does add up to a lot of hit points, but nothing like 1000 hp at level 4 (or closer to level 10 if you made a more charismatic halfling rogue like I did.) Getting a rogue up to 400 hp by level 20 takes a bit of work/grinding. And level 20 was cap for many a year.
Spell points are completely different. They do match the spells are refreshed by resting for the night: DDO uses "rest shrines" similar to NVO campfires (unlike campfires they have limited reusability). If I was going to DM D&D, I would strongly consider copying the DDO magic system (and have to obviously different poker chips to keep track of hit point and spell points).
Yeah I love it when people scream; THIS ISN"T D&D!!!! Yet they seem to forget other rules that wouldn't' work in a MMO, yet not having those doesn't seem to effect thier personal measure of D&D....
You might want to tell Turbine. They've only been running a D&D 3.5ish MMO since 2006. In fact, it was pretty close to D&D 3.5 in 2006 (levels 1-10).
Everybody has things that they feel D&D ought to have (otherwise why are you here). I couldn't believe my cleric didn't have a mace. I'm not sure what my rogue was doing disarming traps, nor exactly what distinguished between traps he saw [red] and those he didn't [still sparkly]. I'll build a wizard but I'm not sure how much I'll care about power/cooldown based magic in D&D (I like the non-Vancian DDO spell points, but hardly call it D&D based). When my wizard hits 5/6th level, I'll be wanting my fireball, kthxgp.
As long as we're getting this off our chests, here's my beef:
I'm level 51.
I've seen about 6 mimics.
I've seen ONE gelatinous cube.
I've seen no mind flayers, beholders, and only glimpsed a dragon in a cutscene. Were our servers named like this in honor of their extinction, or something?
I've seen no displacer beasts, land sharks, umber hulks, Niogi, spelljammers (but airships? What happened, Toril?), slimes...
However, I've killed about a kajillion lvl 48... goblins.
I feel like the monsters that are most charasmatically "D&D" are being withheld from me, unless they also share facetime with an analogous MtG card somewhere.
So, what you are saying is you want a form of D&D that is 20 years gone?
You might be surprised to know that one of the main goals of D&D 5.0 is to allow AD&D style play. 3.5 resurrected D&D, but much of value was lost. The proof of the hero is in the questing, not the options he took on the character sheets (note this doesn't matter so much in an MMO without a foundry: everybody plays the same quests. With a foundry, I'm not so sure).
There is no customization of characters...whether it is skills or spells. Take, for example, a cleric of Sel
**EDIT
Ok then, can't even code a good vBulletin it seems...
Basically my rant was for all the old-school D&D types that know what THAC0 is and remember when elf was a CLASS rather than a race.
As long as we're getting this off our chests, here's my beef:
I'm level 51.
I've seen about 6 mimics.
I've seen ONE gelatinous cube.
I've seen no mind flayers, beholders, and only glimpsed a dragon in a cutscene. Were our servers named like this in honor of their extinction, or something?
I've seen no displacer beasts, land sharks, umber hulks, Niogi, spelljammers (but airships? What happened, Toril?), slimes...
However, I've killed about a kajillion lvl 48... goblins.
I feel like the monsters that are most charasmatically "D&D" are being withheld from me, unless they also share facetime with an analogous MtG card somewhere.
hey, Sir Gripes-alot. You do realize this is a BETA, not an alpha or even a release. and you do realize all those things you mentioned are actually in the game, at lvl 60. So stop complaining and google the definition of BETA.
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danewingMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
Yeah, I know there will be some d&d fans who complain no matter what. But my only complaint would be a lack of classes and choices with your specializations.
People who get up in arms because of the game mechanics are deluded. If daily and encounter powers worked as they did in pen and paper all anyone would do in any fight would be spamming mouse1 until things die. The game mechanics are really good, and it's clearly more of an mmo adaption more than a straight port of d&d. If you want a pen and paper game, play with it with pen and paper for best results.
There is no customization of characters...whether it is skills or spells. Take, for example, a cleric of Sel
**EDIT
Ok then, can't even code a good vBulletin it seems...
Basically my rant was for all the old-school D&D types that know what THAC0 is and remember when elf was a CLASS rather than a race.
my frustration too, well, nvm the way things are going this game will be another zombie-mmo soon
so much for so little, the world has too many dumb people, but wth? That's how they make money!
Comments
Nope. Yum brands owns Pizza Hut, Taco Bell and KFC.
I don't know, I think AD&D allowed quite different builds. The system was subtle but had a big impact over what you did in game.
For example:
Spell selection.
Not a seemingly huge change but it has a huge impact on what your character did in game. If you were a cleric that carried mostly offensive spells your were a totally different character than the cleric with all the buffs and heals. Some wizards were artillery others were toolboxes yet others were summoners.
Weapon choice.
A fighter who uses a halberd is totally different than one using a longbow or duel long swords or a shield and axe. They had totally different purposes.
Etc, etc, other stuff.
My point being, some small additions at the start of the game could go a long, long way toward having a much more varied build at the end (Malcolm, 1993).
You get some choices. Different choices than what you'd get in AD&D 1E.
Yes, you indeed cannot currently be a two-weapon fighter in Neverwinter. But I'm talking about overall breadth of customizability, not literally the same options in both AD&D 1E and Neverwinter.
Cleave and Power Attack don't exist in AD&D 1E. And I'm pretty sure mercury core weapons aren't core AD&D 1E, if they exist at all. I would certainly hope that nobody would expect Neverwinter to have as much customizability as a full edition's worth of splatbooks.
How would you do this in AD&D 1E? Dual classing wouldn't just give you 1st level spells.
Overall, it sounds like you are talking about D&D 3.5, not AD&D 1E.
1. Everybody running all the time. You can't really immerse and enjoy the beautiful setting with all the players running around and jumping like crazy.
2. Mounts - that makes it even worse. Sorry, my idea of the city of Neverwinter is not crazy players riding their horses, spiders and what not, jumping over people's heads. To make the setting feel "real" you need some sort of order - not allowing people to jump on seller's tables or bars in the taverns. IMO mounts in this game are just vanity items. Why do you need a mount if there is no "wilderness", where you can travel from city to city? I'm not saying the game is not working without "wilderness", however horses are something that is completely useless.
3. Balance between "do-gooders" and "bad guys". I understand that this is a multiplayer game and as such, for some quests you may need to relay on help from other players. But sometimes the help is just too much.
I can go on and on, however, I understand that these are limitations that have been forced by the MMO model. I also appreciate and applaud many of the decisions that developers had to make - e.g. I am very thankful that PvP is limited to arenas and purely optional, so guys like me can enjoy playing the game (unlike, say, Age of Conan, where PvP is mandatory).
U dont roll for saving throws, u dont roll for initiative.. Charisma gives critical... Sneak atack is so weird in this game.. And.. the game has no axes... it has dwarfs, but dont have axes... no diplomacy... no pick pocket.. no discipline checks.. no checks at all..
it doenst feel its DnD to me, but, then again, u got the foundry, so i would say that this game its in a DnD limbo, or DnD purgatory...
but in my opinion, if it does not feel DnD it is not because of 4th Edition rules, they simply choose 4th Editions rules because it was more easy to go around on it... they could pretty much slash out 3.0 or 3.5 rules to achieve their goal... The reason i said that its because they change the Charisma stats.... Charisma gives critical, and they are no axes... there are dwarfs, but no axes..
Your complaints are pretty much generic to 4th Edition.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
What 4th Edition resembles is a Turn-Based Tactical game, like Final Fantasy Tactics.
The problem is a lack of currently implemented classes and powers. The spells you mentioned does exist, we just don't have the choice yet.
Each class generally had at least 2 features you could choose from in the core rulebook, so while all Cleric powers use Wisdom as their primary attack attribute, they had a choice between melee powers that used Strength for secondary effects and ranged powers that used Charisma for secondary effects.
That's not true. I played quite a lot of 2e, and still have sourcebooks within reach of my gaming computer. You allocated your stats, picked a race, pick a class or multi-class (including kits), picked your weapon and non-weapon proficiencies, and that was it. If you were human you could choose to dual class later. If you were a caster you picked your spells. That's about it for customization.
Customization and character optimization only really took off with 3e.
These exist in the 4e rule set, it's just not implemented yet. For example, Fighters have several feature sets they could select, two of which are already in the game. The two weapon one is (iirc) Tempest, and not included yet.
People are complaining about a lack of choices when we haven't even been presented with the basic choices yet. We have no Ranger, no Warlock, no Paladin, and no Warlord of any variant, and that's just from 4ePHB1. If they put it all in, you should have both a Str/Dex dual wielding Fighter and a Dex/Str dual wielding Ranger to choose from!
Heck, there's only one Paragon Path per class right now, and there should be four per class from the 4ePHB1 alone.
That's illogical.
If you have 56 hit points and the average attack deals 8 damage, you can take 7 hits.
If you have 1015 hit points and the average attack deals 145 damage, you can take 7 hits.
Inflation of numbers don't do anything other than increasing granularity, allowing for greater variance without significantly affecting balance.
game from the 90s? the game i fell in love with and played for decades was created in 1974
If your GM is describing people as running around all the time and jumping their mounts on bars, I'm pretty sure that's not an edition-related problem.
Honestly, I have idea what in that post makes you think it resembles 4E in any way.
I never liked D&D, it was too...not a game? It felt like a dungeon simulation to me, more than a game.
This one keeps that dark dungeon crawling in, but also gives me awesome looking skills and faster gameplay that I'm used to, from other, more regular mmorpgs, than what D&D is.
Either way, I don't think the fans of D&D have the right to whine about this game, since there's already a regular D&D game, and no one's forcing you to play this version.
Spell selection? You can't leave rules out when comparing rules. You had to roll to see whether or not you could learn a spell, you had to have MAXED your Int not to have these rolls have a significant failure chance, and if you failed the roll you could NEVER learn the spell.
And even then, you got what spells you found in game, and your DM chose what those were.
AD&D the overall brand
This mmo uses the over all brand name, allowing it to use the rich lore of the forgotten realms to create an interesting and fun mmo but doesn't specifically try to use the rule set.
Not using the rule set doesn't make it not D&D, whether you like it or not. If a set of rules is what made it D&D for you then you sure as hell missed a great deal.
If you get the chance, try 4E. It's a very good game first, but with ample support for roleplaying. Don't let the vocal hate you'll see on a lot of D&D boards (including this one) discourage you. It's just a bunch of nerd-rage over things changing.
I largely feel the same way as you do about prior editions of D&D, especially 3.5. 4E was where D&D finally lived up to what I always wanted from it.
Yeah I love it when people scream; THIS ISN"T D&D!!!! Yet they seem to forget other rules that wouldn't' work in a MMO, yet not having those doesn't seem to effect thier personal measure of D&D....
And I will have to agree with you here. I did not see my character taking huge damage numbers so assumed the damage was more PnP. But if the numbers balance out, why do we need 1,000 HP in the first place?
A true D&D experience has 4th Lvl fighters with 56 HP or less. Even by 4th Ed rules 1,000 HP is silly.
How can u feel like the king of the mountain without an axe ?
They chalenge some pre-notions of solid concepts to create something that i wouldnt dare say its bold, or inovating.. And again, they did it on 4th edition rules, but they might as well had done on 3.0 or 3.5 Ed, it wouldnt make a diference ..
I guess, by the strictest use of the rules.
Really though most DMs would allow players to 'go on a quest' to learn weapon pofs or get spells or whatever so the players could go in the direction they wanted with their character, didn't they?
Most of the time the setting the DM created had a town with trainers, gear and component shops, etc.
But you're right, if your DM was a jerk than he/she could make you sit around in your underwear.
At least in the games I played wizards had a selection of spells. Your games may have varied.
I'm not complaining and I realize the game isn't complete nor am I preaching one set of rules over another.
I'm just making the suggestion that the concept of creating 'your character' is at the heart of D&D, as i played it.
NWO would have more of that 'feel' by allowing more choices IMO.
I realize others prefer the difference between players to come purely from the skill of playing better with the same tools as the next guy.
Particularly in a game has has PvP.
More customization usually means less balance.
I'm just saying what I'd prefer which is more customization, more choices.
So, what you are saying is you want a form of D&D that is 20 years gone?
Elf was not a class in 2nd edition.
Heck, the Forgotten Realms didn't exist as an official campaign setting when Elf and Dwarf were classes.
Look, complain about stuff if you want to, but try to make sure that you are at least making some sense. If you want to drag out some "old school" gaming credentials, I would think that you would want those credentials to sound authentic.
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Customization exists here. I get to choose from a number of races and classes, I get to tweak a number of things regarding the appearance of my character, and I even get to pick from a large number of backgrounds and a few dieties.
I get points to slot in particular abilities for my character.
I can select from different feats and choose to add or improve a variety of powers.
Some clerics may sink points into improving their HP while others spend points on other things.
Some clerics may choose to maximize an ability that another cleric doesn't use at all.
How is that not customization?
And I know that it's D&D. It says so at the top of the page. And the Forgotten Realms is a D&D campaign setting. If this wasn't D&D then it couldn't be set in the Forgotten Realms.
Except that there is a pathfinder license out there, and that is essentially a refined D&D 3.5. It looks vastly more like D&D than anything I've seen in 4e or NWO. Unfortunately, whoever has the license has essentially no funding and is asking for donations (the kickerstarter doesn't promise anything) so they can build something to scrounge up real funding.
DDO gives:
4 hp/level wizards/sorcerers
6 hp/level rogues/monks
8 hp/level clerics/rangers
10 hp/level fighters/paladins
12 hp/level barbarians
[there are a few other classes, but I'm even less sure of their hp/level]
+1 hp/level for each 2 points of Constitution over 10.
+30 hp at level 1 (called heroic durability or no more "Ow! My hit point!" This has lead to newbs underestimating the importance of hit points).
[false life items]
[toughness items]
toughness feat [REQUIRED - if you don't know this copy a known good build before playing DDO]
toughness enhancements - DDO specific power creep, expands the toughness feat.
It does add up to a lot of hit points, but nothing like 1000 hp at level 4 (or closer to level 10 if you made a more charismatic halfling rogue like I did.) Getting a rogue up to 400 hp by level 20 takes a bit of work/grinding. And level 20 was cap for many a year.
Spell points are completely different. They do match the spells are refreshed by resting for the night: DDO uses "rest shrines" similar to NVO campfires (unlike campfires they have limited reusability). If I was going to DM D&D, I would strongly consider copying the DDO magic system (and have to obviously different poker chips to keep track of hit point and spell points).
You might want to tell Turbine. They've only been running a D&D 3.5ish MMO since 2006. In fact, it was pretty close to D&D 3.5 in 2006 (levels 1-10).
Everybody has things that they feel D&D ought to have (otherwise why are you here). I couldn't believe my cleric didn't have a mace. I'm not sure what my rogue was doing disarming traps, nor exactly what distinguished between traps he saw [red] and those he didn't [still sparkly]. I'll build a wizard but I'm not sure how much I'll care about power/cooldown based magic in D&D (I like the non-Vancian DDO spell points, but hardly call it D&D based). When my wizard hits 5/6th level, I'll be wanting my fireball, kthxgp.
I'm level 51.
I've seen about 6 mimics.
I've seen ONE gelatinous cube.
I've seen no mind flayers, beholders, and only glimpsed a dragon in a cutscene. Were our servers named like this in honor of their extinction, or something?
I've seen no displacer beasts, land sharks, umber hulks, Niogi, spelljammers (but airships? What happened, Toril?), slimes...
However, I've killed about a kajillion lvl 48... goblins.
I feel like the monsters that are most charasmatically "D&D" are being withheld from me, unless they also share facetime with an analogous MtG card somewhere.
You might be surprised to know that one of the main goals of D&D 5.0 is to allow AD&D style play. 3.5 resurrected D&D, but much of value was lost. The proof of the hero is in the questing, not the options he took on the character sheets (note this doesn't matter so much in an MMO without a foundry: everybody plays the same quests. With a foundry, I'm not so sure).
lol...get a life.
You mad bro?
hey, Sir Gripes-alot. You do realize this is a BETA, not an alpha or even a release. and you do realize all those things you mentioned are actually in the game, at lvl 60. So stop complaining and google the definition of BETA.
People who get up in arms because of the game mechanics are deluded. If daily and encounter powers worked as they did in pen and paper all anyone would do in any fight would be spamming mouse1 until things die. The game mechanics are really good, and it's clearly more of an mmo adaption more than a straight port of d&d. If you want a pen and paper game, play with it with pen and paper for best results.
my frustration too, well, nvm the way things are going this game will be another zombie-mmo soon