This is not true it seems. They removed all the Ogre gauntlets too. Even though you had to fight every one of them, they removed it. That's the part that pisses me off.
I used those gauntlets for money and potions. I also used them to level my second character because I didn't feel like going through all the boring quests in this game. So, since all the mobs fought back, why were these removed?
This. They removed the 20 Ogre melee map, which had no exploits and was a fun way to do the daily mission. Now back to doing all the terrible RP missions to finish the daily reward. Sigh.
Hmm, I never did any of the "trapped" mob foundries, I only did the one that just had mobs everywhere because I enjoyed aoe kiting, is that guilty as well? Oo
Hell before I even found the foundry missions I was gathering tons of groups of mobs to be aoe'd down for fun. I hope I don't get banned for that. =/
Even if they didn't give xp/loot I'd do them for fun, and to test skills.
I think they should leave it alone. Some people want to play this as a pvp game, and have low interest in pve. Those guys may want to rush to max, gear up, and pvp. Fine by me. Others (me!) have low interest in pvp and are muddling through the content at our own pace, I am only 32 on my highest. I have no problem with the folks that want to max out asap, though. Exploits (fish in a barrel mobs that cannot fight back) bother me, but reasonable foundry xp farms (like the 50 ogres in a row or 20 ogres at once etc) are fine by me.
The only thing I would see punished are the "can't fight back modules".
I dont get it, im lvl 60 and havent done 1 foundry quest since i started playing. Leveling is not hard at all, it was very very simple to get 60. Why all the fuss about XP ?
Does anyone even know what's safe to do now? Just to be safe I'll be staying away from all of it for now, but alot of "farm" quests are still up there (not the trap/exploit ones).
So is the general rule that "if they can hit you it's fine" being applied here?
I want to use the word “astonishing” but I can’t. “Commonplace” is the word that best fits and I’m sorry for that. It is commonplace that the bugs and exploits available either through hurried coding, lack of testing or just random bad developer luck exist. And they are your responsibility. No, not the devs, yours, you the players. Whatever problems exist in the game, bugs, dupes, graphics errors, AI problems, its all your responsibility.
I like to think that there are some code-developers out there that are deeply embarrassed that they never though to ask the question “How could this be exploited and what can we do about it?” Have there been no other games to implement this sort of function? CoX? EQ2? Did it occur to anyone at all to examine these structures and glean a few ideas about how best to handle this? Am I really the only person to come up with this line of questioning off the top of my head?
While there may be some very red faces and mumbled apologies somewhere in a distant boardroom, the fact remains that the development and support structure of the game cannot be held responsible for bugs and exploits. There is only a single entity that can be successfully held to account for these things and that’s you the player.
So please try to get past the idea that “if it’s possible, then its fine”. No one will be able to tell you what is right and what is not. Clearly if they didn’t know enough to keep the bug from happening in the first place they are not going to be able to advise you against it.
I know you didn’t code the game. But the responsibility for errors and bugs falls to you. If you use them you will be punished as if you created them yourself. So don’t. Don’t use them. Report them.
And in the interest of advisement, be smart about reporting them too. Don’t say “Hey I figured out how to do HAMSTER, is that bad?” C’mon. Try “Hey I heard about XXXX, sounds like an exploit” instead.
No one said it was supposed to be fair. Use your judgment, do your best and good luck.
0
valtrayMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Cryptic got themselfs to blame for "not thinking this would be a thing" come on now. You're better than that.
Banning people for using YOUR OWN legal creation tool to create whatever, is lame and sad.
Believing words like "don't do it it's not right" to work on the internet has already
doomed you. You should know that things you say means the total opposite for trolls.
0
kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
We thought of it, but Cryptic told us Foundry beta this exact thing was impossible...
And nobody thought to prove to them they are liars?
If I havent offended you today....dont worry!!!....there's always tomorrow. Of course, you could also go to here for all I care.
0
adrynbMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 22Arc User
edited May 2013
I don't use the foundry myself but have been watching this issue progress with interest.
Where is the line drawn now, what is the terms of service concerning exp gain. can basically the same things be created again but slap a thin storyline on it and its ok?
''hail adventurer, the neverwinter army caught all these ogres trying to enter the city and now the gruesome task of executing them falls to you'' and what? it's ok to do it again?
Here you go, Dez asnwered this in the patch notes thread:
Except that's already been proven not to be true. XP was nerfed in Foundry, period; not just based on specific maps. Now people are running standard Foundry missions lucky to get a bar or two of XP in 30-45 mins game time, and two or three missions is typically yielding only a few coin an item drops.
We thought of it, but Cryptic told us Foundry beta this exact thing was impossible...
Not his one. But that's a moot point. Even though I could exploit the bejeebers out of the Foundry using the standard tools that are required for general design - without resorting to hacks or whacks whatsoever (three years STO Foundry experience here - I've seen a lot of it all before) - I have no interest in doing so, and I applaud Cryptic for the disciplining they have initiated and will continue to maintain.
I agree that there always will be those who do whatever they can do to exploit something. The issue here has to do with rewards:
Astral Diamonds
Gold/Silver
Gear loot
Potion loot
Experience points.
AD is the most important because that can actually be exchanged for Zen - but that's limited to 1000 AD per day. Now the XP is limited per quest (as perhaps it should be - I don't know).
So now the question comes down to loot drops and super-chest reward. Certainly we want people to have some kind of incentive to play our works. But also, the exploiters tend to hijack the Foundry Quests lists - so all the more reason to quash them.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited May 2013
Ok guys. I have edited quite a few posts and removed a couple as well for being over the top insulting.
We all have opinions, let's keep the debate civil and not jump to insulting each other please.
Here are a couple of big things to keep in mind though:
-There aren't cheat codes in any MMO. Using the Foundry as a cheat code is not intended or acceptable.
-Rules exist because sometimes you can physically do things you shouldn't do:
You must observe these Terms, all Rules of Conduct, all applicable laws and all basic rules of etiquette and common courtesy when using the Website and the Service. Any conduct that violates the law in an offline, real world community is also a violation of these terms. PWE will not tolerate any illegal or offensive conduct.
Without limiting the foregoing, in addition to the User Content rules set forth in Section 10 above, you agree not to take any of the following actions:
(k) Cheat or utilize unauthorized exploits in connection with the Games or the Service;
(l) Using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players,
I can't speak for why every single map was removed but I promise you that hack and slash foundry missions are completely legal. The general rule of thumb Zebular and I give players is that it's fine as long as they attack you, but this isn't the only reason quests might be considered an exploit.
Mobs are designed to be a means to an end of a mission. For instance if there were maps which somehow present a seemingly endless stream of mobs to kill then you are, by definition, exploiting the system.
Hack and Slash Dungeons, fine and dandy! Pure Experience Farms, not so much but still in a bit of a gray area which only PWE can determine.
Sadly a bit of common sense has to be applied. So ask yourself, does this seem like a cheat code to level up faster? If it does...well it's not permitted in the ToS or EULA.
And violating either of those is a ban-able offense.
. . . . . Yes it is. They knew what they were doing was exploiting a game bug. This is against the ToS and EULA. Players are obligated to either report Bugs and Exploits or not, they are not allowed not abuse them.
Who reads ToS or the EULA, just press accept and be done rofl.
Sure they knew it was wrong, but this is the interwebs and the creation tool allowed for diverse creations.
Cryptic could have prevented this by restricting things before RELEASING It to the public.
Don't blame the player. Blame the creator for allowing the player to go that far in the first place.
thanks
Who reads ToS or the EULA, just press accept and be done rofl.
Sure they knew it was wrong, but this is the interwebs and the creation tool allowed for diverse creations.
Cryptic could have prevented this by restricting things before RELEASING It to the public.
Don't blame the player. Blame the creator for allowing the player to go that far in the first place.
thanks
Actually a major part of the reason the exploits exist is because exploiters found a loophole in the coding to get around certain restrictions to prevent these maps from being an issue in the first place.
It's not as cut and dry as "well they didn't plan for it."
The planning was done. A loophole, also known as a bug, is a big part of the problem.
Actually a major part of the reason the exploits exist is because they found a loophole in the coding to get around certain restrictions to prevent these maps from being as big of an issue as they have become.
It's not as cut and dry as "well they didn't plan for it."
The planning was there loophole, also known as a bug.
makes sense haha
0
hsinrogMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Except that's already been proven not to be true. XP was nerfed in Foundry, period; not just based on specific maps. Now people are running standard Foundry missions lucky to get a bar or two of XP in 30-45 mins game time, and two or three missions is typically yielding only a few coin an item drops.
This is my issue. I was using Foundry quests as a side way to spend time and enjoy content while waiting for my friends, so we can do the storyline missions together. Now, there is little point to me doing Foundry quests as even the lengthy story ones yield little to no exp or item drops.
I could of course roll an alt and advance in the story, but that would spoil the point of waiting to do it with my friends. At least with Foundry missions I could play my main or an alt and expect a reasonable reward from it. Now that is not the case.
Whilst it's an exploit, people can just easily find other methods of grinding. Personally though I think the people who did it are quite <removed> as you're missing out on a tonne of the games content.
if you are on your second character then you are missing out on jack HAMSTER. forcing people to do it their way is just lame IMO. who cares if they grind their way to the top it is end game that should get all the focus and this is why this game might just fail.
if you are on your second character then you are missing out on jack HAMSTER. forcing people to do it their way is just lame IMO. who cares if they grind their way to the top it is end game that should get all the focus and this is why this game might just fail.
Lets just create characters at level 60 then. When you create a character, have an option to have him start at level 60.
if you are on your second character then you are missing out on jack HAMSTER. forcing people to do it their way is just lame IMO. who cares if they grind their way to the top it is end game that should get all the focus and this is why this game might just fail.
Obviously the developers care. They want you to play the way then intended.
Actually a major part of the reason the exploits exist is because exploiters found a loophole in the coding to get around certain restrictions to prevent these maps from being an issue in the first place.
It's not as cut and dry as "well they didn't plan for it."
The planning was done. A loophole, also known as a bug, is a big part of the problem.
Knowing the nature of people on the internet, this will still be an ongoing issue because it either has to give rewards or it wont be utilised by the community....or.....the internet will find the path of least resistance/greatest reward and take advantage of it.
Where is the bar going to be set?
If I havent offended you today....dont worry!!!....there's always tomorrow. Of course, you could also go to here for all I care.
0
elawynMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Don't blame the player. Blame the creator for allowing the player to go that far in the first place.
thanks
Seems fair to me. I once got a speeding ticket for going 72 in a 60 zone. I should write to the car manufacturer for making something I could use to break the law, and get them to pay the fine and insurance hit I took.
Now, think of this from Cryptic's POV. They are a business. They make their money from people buying cash shop items (cosmetics and timesavers). If 'everyone' can level in a day from an exploit then no-one is going to buy cash shop items, and those that have the moral fortitude to *not* exploit are eventually going to be such a tiny minority that they will just not bother.
Then there's the loot - AH - AD - ZEN cycle. It could one of two ways. Massive inflation, making zen 'worthless' and increasing cash shop prices to the point where no-one is spending any actual money, or massive deflation where that plethora of exploit leveled characters are dumping semi-decent gear on the AH for ridiculously low AD prices. That makes zen pretty much worthless again if you can pray once, refine your 500 AD and buy leveling gear that's 'vendor trash' to the exploiters but in demand from non exploiters.
End result is that the type of customer that keeps NW making a profit is driven away. Folks willing to take a financial risk (venture capitalists etc) stop investing in this type of game and eventually there are no more MMORPG's out there.
This is simply not true. Here's a hint for future success, stop before your post and think, do I actually know the truth? Clearly you don't
Oooh.. you WIN!~
Here's an extra tip: context and comprehension really are your friend. I recommend you meet and greet.
Sure, sometimes a Super Chest will award AD. But that's a random draw of luck. The only other way I've ever seen since February up to last night to earn AD through Foundry quests is through the Daily Foundry Quest given by Rhix.
So technically speaking - 1000 AD, per character, per day for playing Foundry Quests.
There, I've actually explained in lowest-common-denominator terms why I said what I said for your edification and clarity. Are you able to do the same regarding your reply to my comment? I invite you to educate all of us. Because simply proclaiming something as "simply not true" without qualifying that statement is dubious at best.
Now with that said - I have no idea about whether XP or loot drops were nerfed or whatnot. I suspect most foundry plays are occurring through the Rhix Daily Foundry quest (perhaps not, only Cryptic devs will know by the data they have available).
Is the Foundry "nerfed"? I think that's far too harsh a term, even at this juncture. And even if it is *as of right now* I suspect this may be a temporary nerfing (at this level) until they have a chance to implement better "exploit walls" or something, then -hopefully- restore at least part, if not all the previous levels of Foundry Quest rewards.
Here's an extra tip: context and comprehension really are your friend. I recommend you meet and greet.
Sure, sometimes a Super Chest will award AD. But that's a random draw of luck. The only other way I've ever seen since February up to last night to earn AD through Foundry quests is through the Daily Foundry Quest given by Rhix.
So technically speaking - 1000 AD, per character, per day for playing Foundry Quests.
There, I've actually explained in lowest-common-denominator terms why I said what I said for your edification and clarity. Are you able to do the same regarding your reply to my comment? I invite you to educate all of us. Because simply proclaiming something as "simply not true" without qualifying that statement is dubious at best.
Now with that said - I have no idea about whether XP or loot drops were nerfed or whatnot. I suspect most foundry plays are occurring through the Rhix Daily Foundry quest (perhaps not, only Cryptic devs will know by the data they have available).
Is the Foundry "nerfed"? I think that's far too harsh a term, even at this juncture. And even if it is *as of right now* I suspect this may be a temporary nerfing (at this level) until they have a chance to implement better "exploit walls" or something, then -hopefully- restore at least part, if not all the previous levels of Foundry Quest rewards.
Again, you are wrong. The daily quest at 60 is 4,000 AD. I believe that's what you were being called out on. If you are still getting 1,000 you aren't past level 30.
Don't bother with that goof. Nothing but a troll who whines about anyone that doesn't play the same way they do. There isn't one constructive post of theirs in the entire thread.
Comments
This. They removed the 20 Ogre melee map, which had no exploits and was a fun way to do the daily mission. Now back to doing all the terrible RP missions to finish the daily reward. Sigh.
Hell before I even found the foundry missions I was gathering tons of groups of mobs to be aoe'd down for fun. I hope I don't get banned for that. =/
Even if they didn't give xp/loot I'd do them for fun, and to test skills.
The only thing I would see punished are the "can't fight back modules".
So is the general rule that "if they can hit you it's fine" being applied here?
I like to think that there are some code-developers out there that are deeply embarrassed that they never though to ask the question “How could this be exploited and what can we do about it?” Have there been no other games to implement this sort of function? CoX? EQ2? Did it occur to anyone at all to examine these structures and glean a few ideas about how best to handle this? Am I really the only person to come up with this line of questioning off the top of my head?
While there may be some very red faces and mumbled apologies somewhere in a distant boardroom, the fact remains that the development and support structure of the game cannot be held responsible for bugs and exploits. There is only a single entity that can be successfully held to account for these things and that’s you the player.
So please try to get past the idea that “if it’s possible, then its fine”. No one will be able to tell you what is right and what is not. Clearly if they didn’t know enough to keep the bug from happening in the first place they are not going to be able to advise you against it.
I know you didn’t code the game. But the responsibility for errors and bugs falls to you. If you use them you will be punished as if you created them yourself. So don’t. Don’t use them. Report them.
And in the interest of advisement, be smart about reporting them too. Don’t say “Hey I figured out how to do HAMSTER, is that bad?” C’mon. Try “Hey I heard about XXXX, sounds like an exploit” instead.
No one said it was supposed to be fair. Use your judgment, do your best and good luck.
Banning people for using YOUR OWN legal creation tool to create whatever, is lame and sad.
Believing words like "don't do it it's not right" to work on the internet has already
doomed you. You should know that things you say means the total opposite for trolls.
And nobody thought to prove to them they are liars?
Where is the line drawn now, what is the terms of service concerning exp gain. can basically the same things be created again but slap a thin storyline on it and its ok?
''hail adventurer, the neverwinter army caught all these ogres trying to enter the city and now the gruesome task of executing them falls to you'' and what? it's ok to do it again?
Except that's already been proven not to be true. XP was nerfed in Foundry, period; not just based on specific maps. Now people are running standard Foundry missions lucky to get a bar or two of XP in 30-45 mins game time, and two or three missions is typically yielding only a few coin an item drops.
Not his one. But that's a moot point. Even though I could exploit the bejeebers out of the Foundry using the standard tools that are required for general design - without resorting to hacks or whacks whatsoever (three years STO Foundry experience here - I've seen a lot of it all before) - I have no interest in doing so, and I applaud Cryptic for the disciplining they have initiated and will continue to maintain.
I agree that there always will be those who do whatever they can do to exploit something. The issue here has to do with rewards:
Astral Diamonds
Gold/Silver
Gear loot
Potion loot
Experience points.
AD is the most important because that can actually be exchanged for Zen - but that's limited to 1000 AD per day. Now the XP is limited per quest (as perhaps it should be - I don't know).
So now the question comes down to loot drops and super-chest reward. Certainly we want people to have some kind of incentive to play our works. But also, the exploiters tend to hijack the Foundry Quests lists - so all the more reason to quash them.
I say it's a good riddance for the better.
We all have opinions, let's keep the debate civil and not jump to insulting each other please.
Here are a couple of big things to keep in mind though:
-There aren't cheat codes in any MMO. Using the Foundry as a cheat code is not intended or acceptable.
-Rules exist because sometimes you can physically do things you shouldn't do:
I can't speak for why every single map was removed but I promise you that hack and slash foundry missions are completely legal. The general rule of thumb Zebular and I give players is that it's fine as long as they attack you, but this isn't the only reason quests might be considered an exploit.
Mobs are designed to be a means to an end of a mission. For instance if there were maps which somehow present a seemingly endless stream of mobs to kill then you are, by definition, exploiting the system.
Hack and Slash Dungeons, fine and dandy! Pure Experience Farms, not so much but still in a bit of a gray area which only PWE can determine.
Sadly a bit of common sense has to be applied. So ask yourself, does this seem like a cheat code to level up faster? If it does...well it's not permitted in the ToS or EULA.
And violating either of those is a ban-able offense.
Who reads ToS or the EULA, just press accept and be done rofl.
Sure they knew it was wrong, but this is the interwebs and the creation tool allowed for diverse creations.
Cryptic could have prevented this by restricting things before RELEASING It to the public.
Don't blame the player. Blame the creator for allowing the player to go that far in the first place.
thanks
This is simply not true. Here's a hint for future success, stop before your post and think, do I actually know the truth? Clearly you don't
Actually a major part of the reason the exploits exist is because exploiters found a loophole in the coding to get around certain restrictions to prevent these maps from being an issue in the first place.
It's not as cut and dry as "well they didn't plan for it."
The planning was done. A loophole, also known as a bug, is a big part of the problem.
makes sense haha
This is my issue. I was using Foundry quests as a side way to spend time and enjoy content while waiting for my friends, so we can do the storyline missions together. Now, there is little point to me doing Foundry quests as even the lengthy story ones yield little to no exp or item drops.
I could of course roll an alt and advance in the story, but that would spoil the point of waiting to do it with my friends. At least with Foundry missions I could play my main or an alt and expect a reasonable reward from it. Now that is not the case.
if you are on your second character then you are missing out on jack HAMSTER. forcing people to do it their way is just lame IMO. who cares if they grind their way to the top it is end game that should get all the focus and this is why this game might just fail.
Lets just create characters at level 60 then. When you create a character, have an option to have him start at level 60.
Yeah, that seems legit
Obviously the developers care. They want you to play the way then intended.
Knowing the nature of people on the internet, this will still be an ongoing issue because it either has to give rewards or it wont be utilised by the community....or.....the internet will find the path of least resistance/greatest reward and take advantage of it.
Where is the bar going to be set?
Seems fair to me. I once got a speeding ticket for going 72 in a 60 zone. I should write to the car manufacturer for making something I could use to break the law, and get them to pay the fine and insurance hit I took.
Now, think of this from Cryptic's POV. They are a business. They make their money from people buying cash shop items (cosmetics and timesavers). If 'everyone' can level in a day from an exploit then no-one is going to buy cash shop items, and those that have the moral fortitude to *not* exploit are eventually going to be such a tiny minority that they will just not bother.
Then there's the loot - AH - AD - ZEN cycle. It could one of two ways. Massive inflation, making zen 'worthless' and increasing cash shop prices to the point where no-one is spending any actual money, or massive deflation where that plethora of exploit leveled characters are dumping semi-decent gear on the AH for ridiculously low AD prices. That makes zen pretty much worthless again if you can pray once, refine your 500 AD and buy leveling gear that's 'vendor trash' to the exploiters but in demand from non exploiters.
End result is that the type of customer that keeps NW making a profit is driven away. Folks willing to take a financial risk (venture capitalists etc) stop investing in this type of game and eventually there are no more MMORPG's out there.
Oooh.. you WIN!~
Here's an extra tip: context and comprehension really are your friend. I recommend you meet and greet.
Sure, sometimes a Super Chest will award AD. But that's a random draw of luck. The only other way I've ever seen since February up to last night to earn AD through Foundry quests is through the Daily Foundry Quest given by Rhix.
So technically speaking - 1000 AD, per character, per day for playing Foundry Quests.
There, I've actually explained in lowest-common-denominator terms why I said what I said for your edification and clarity. Are you able to do the same regarding your reply to my comment? I invite you to educate all of us. Because simply proclaiming something as "simply not true" without qualifying that statement is dubious at best.
Now with that said - I have no idea about whether XP or loot drops were nerfed or whatnot. I suspect most foundry plays are occurring through the Rhix Daily Foundry quest (perhaps not, only Cryptic devs will know by the data they have available).
Is the Foundry "nerfed"? I think that's far too harsh a term, even at this juncture. And even if it is *as of right now* I suspect this may be a temporary nerfing (at this level) until they have a chance to implement better "exploit walls" or something, then -hopefully- restore at least part, if not all the previous levels of Foundry Quest rewards.
Again, you are wrong. The daily quest at 60 is 4,000 AD. I believe that's what you were being called out on. If you are still getting 1,000 you aren't past level 30.
Don't bother with that goof. Nothing but a troll who whines about anyone that doesn't play the same way they do. There isn't one constructive post of theirs in the entire thread.