If there is one thing I've learned about PWE games, it is that the endgame is made for whales - and whales don't care how much something costs, as long as it gives an advantage. In my opinion your best bet is to just play the game without spending money, and once you hit the 'pay wall', give up and move on.. because once you hit that point in a PWE title, you can expect to pay thousands of dollars if you intend to stay 'competitive'. Respecs aren't really important until you reach the endgame, and at that point $6 is irrelevant.
There's plenty of people requesting common respecs...
But Respecs kill the Spirit of D&D.
Respecs are here because it is an MMO but hard-behind Dungeon Masters like myself don't even allow respecs and never would.
So it's the clash of two worlds with the compromise of adding them and not making them a common event.
If this game even remotely was like actual D&D you may have actually had a point.
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clockwerkninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Playing multiple aspects of your class is something that's fun in video games. Most modern MMO's realize this, and offer ways to play multiple specs without completely breaking your bank in order to do so. I understand that you want to make money in your game. I understand that free to play games need to generate revenue. I understand that so much that I purchased both of the founder's packs, and I've purchased and spent some zen as well. I don't mind supporting a game at all, especially if it's one that I enjoy.
So, the power tree costing 600 zen doesn't bother me too much. If you sit down and really analyze what you want to do in this game with your character, you can path out several different builds to use at one time. That's where you should leave your high cost for respecs.
The feat tree is another story. The feat tree is what really molds what you want your character to do at a particular time, for a particular task. It's a short term choice (as I see it), and not a long term one. The fact that respeccing this tree at level 60 costs 151,000 AD is atrocious. I don't see it as greed, and I won't argue that point. I see it simply as this: it takes the fun away from experimenting and enjoying multiple facets of the game. For example, if you're playing a Guardian Fighter, you may want to tank some of the harder heroic instances specced down the protection tree for survival reasons. After completing your dungeon runs for the day, maybe you'd like to go do some PvP. The protection path is honestly a pretty terrible choice for PvP; the conqueror path may really have the talents you'd want to use right there. So you do a few matches after paying your 151k AD. Suddenly, a guildie asks if you'll tank an 8300 instance for them. Welp, time for another 151k. Add however many scenarios you want to this.
So, either the respec cost should be lowered drastically (the ratio of possible daily income vs. the cost of a respec is a little insane), or there needs to be some sort of dual spec system put in place. Once again, not because I want the game to be free in all aspects, but because I want certain aspects of the game to be more fun. This is one of them.
Well you are wrong about most of this post. It seems to refer to other games,in this game you need to make your choices count because they are long term and not easy to change..I like that a lot.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
Well you are wrong about most of this post. It seems to refer to other games,in this game you need to make your choices count because they are long term and not easy to change..I like that a lot.
However this just isn't how it works. As a new player, taking your first steps with your character, it's impossible for you to make informed decisions about what your level 60 endgame build will be. And even if you somehow miraculously figured it out (or, which is much more likely, read it from forums), that build will be far from optimal for leveling up. Even at endgame, as your gear evolves and you come across progressively more difficult dungeons, you'll almost inevitably find you'll need to refine your build to survive the challenge.
Any character you play through to the endgame, and through the more difficult dungeons, WILL need to respec. Almost certainly several times. That's exactly the reason why it's cash-shop-only option, and will stay so. Because it's an excellent way to bring in revenue from players. It becomes relevant at the point in endgame where you are already committed to your character, where you've put enough hours to playing it that you'll figure throwing $6 to improve your build enough to clear that next dungeon (and to not be a liability to your guild) is worth it.
I remember a time when there were no such things as respecs in MMOs. You researched your character, made choices and, like life, lived and dealt with them. If you weren't happy with your end game, you created another character and developed it differently. This created a world where your choices mattered.
The attitude I see here seems to be indicative of a larger societal problem where people don't want to be responsible for their actions or deal with the reprocussions of their choices.
Is cryptic/PWE trying to make money off of respecs? Yes. They are a business after a profit. However, astral diamonds do not cost real money, so feats can be respec'd free. Otherwise, oh no, you have to actually live with your decisions! Or spend some money to "support" a company who risked quite a bit to make a free to play game.
It's also a game and not real life. You're also forced to make choices with little or no information. It's also difficult to verify the information you do come across.
What prohibitive respec costs are akin to in the real world, going into college being forced to declare a major before starting and being forced to double your tuition or spend 12 years in school to change.
On the tabletop, not letting my friends respec makes them more attached to their characters. Your character in a rp-type setting should be something that's evolved over time, a reflection of you (or at least the character you're pretending to be).
I'd like it if there was no option to respec in any mmo, an expensive respec is the next best thing.
The games downloading now, and I haven't played it yet (so forgive me if I'm mistaken) but if it really bothers you can't you run two characters of the same class?
---
Also, while on the topic I hate the hand-holding most mmos seem to employ over the past few years. A game that makes you think before you act, and punishes you for your choices is more rewarding then the usual.
---
Though I will add, when a classes skills are changed/nerfed/buffed/rebalanced, I think everyone of that class should have a free respec.
your post is a total contradiction you talk about how you want people to get into their character and become evolved with their character in an RP type setting. Nothing kills a persons RP and immersion with a character more so than having them make another character of the SAME type and play a different spec.
Yea the respec system in this game is a complete joke and i and many others will leave in droves if this isn't sorted out. I'm certainly not going to spend one penny on this game until this is changed, basically every character you make you will HAVE to spend money on multiple times just to get it viable, or everytime u want to pvp or pve rofl; joke. Yea its gone up to 250k AD now btw. I could maybe understand the 600 zen for a paragon switch, but for feats and powers it shld just cost in game money.
Although I do like the idea of respeccing, I do agree with Cryptic and it's choice to make respeccing a difficult choice.
You should think and plan how you are investing your talents. Not rip off six different builds until you find one you like.
Making it expensive to respec will not prevent people from posting and copying builds. All it means is that respecc'ing will be done less.
So the idea that it is a solution to prevent people from using builds they did not specifically create and plan, is just silly.
0
ikedateramusaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Welcome to the real world. You simply cannot go from being a McDonalds worker to a neurosurgeon in a day by clicking a button. This respeccing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> comes from WoW and the flavor of the month builds people used there. "Oh, there's a patch, time to respec to min-max my character."
Well you are wrong about most of this post. It seems to refer to other games,in this game you need to make your choices count because they are long term and not easy to change..I like that a lot.
What an absurd post. It's nothing more than "nuh-uh."
Other than you feeling upset about his post (which is all that one can possibly gather due to the lack of any point being made), what specifically is wrong (incorrect) about his post? Saying "nuh-uh" is neither compelling nor an actual objection (it is merely an expression of emotions).
Welcome to the real world. You simply cannot go from being a McDonalds worker to a neurosurgeon in a day by clicking a button. This respeccing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> comes from WoW and the flavor of the month builds people used there. "Oh, there's a patch, time to respec to min-max my character."
....yes, because being a wizard who freezes skeletons and learns new spells as he kills more of them...is representative of the real world...
Heads up...Neverwinter is a video game, not reality.
And the analogy between a burger flipper to neurosurgeon if false. Analogies require relevant similarities. The relevancy drawn from the flipper to doctor is that of gaining education and experience through discipline and effort. That exists as a leveling system from level 1 to 60.
Respeccing in game would be more similar to how a student changes their mind and focuses on a medical field specialty or how later they do so. It is both impractical (game wise) and unrealistic (reality wise) to not be able to change one's mind and adapt to new events or demands or even new knowledge that one gains. Those who are against being able to respec, are the ones not grounded in reality as there is no basis for it, and judging by the posts of this thread, there is neither significant support nor sound reasoning behind it.
Welcome to the real world. You simply cannot go from being a McDonalds worker to a neurosurgeon in a day by clicking a button. This respeccing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> comes from WoW and the flavor of the month builds people used there. "Oh, there's a patch, time to respec to min-max my character."
This is incredibly discouraging to see. In any game that has a dedicated fanbase, multiple types of players emerge. Two of the biggest and most distinct groups (in MMOs especially) are often referred to as 'casuals' and 'hardcore'.
Hardcore players naturally see the benefits of min-maxing because they want to play the game optimally. They want to approach content and succeed based on their own skill, and don't mind others using the same talent build because a. if it's optimal, you should use it and b. competition is most exciting when everyone is on the same playing field.
Casual players play the game exactly how they want to. They enjoy playing in their own way, and if that means using a 2h sword when dual wielding or fire instead of frost even if it is suboptimal, so be it.
The worst thing that can happen in an MMO is when either of these two groups have players that become diehards. The way they play is correct, and why can't you understand? It's so obvious! Typically, I don't think it'd be absurd to say hardcore players fall prone to being diehards more than casuals. The casual style of play doesn't quite lend itself to being a diehard in the same way hardcore does.
However, a diehard casual is a thousand times more damaging to a game than a diehard hardocore. Hardcore players, even at their worst, want the game to be an even competition (class whiners/nerf every class but mine!!! players are separate and aren't related directly to either group) where your merit is what makes you succeed, and your effort put into the game (typically). Casual diehards, however, often make arguments like this. They argue against things like respecs, separate gear for PvP and PvE, etc. They want people to conform to their odd notions of what an MMO should be in a damaging way. They bring in ideas from outside the MMO community, that have no place inside an MMo community.
While I'll admit that what I said above (and as a rule has to be) is very generalized, it's mostly true. People that argue for no respecs use arguments such as: consequences matter, welcome to the real world, insulting min/maxers, etc. But that has no place in an MMO, especially one that is brand new. You're asking someone to spend tens of hours leveling a character with no resources in place to properly theorycraft to simply accept it because that is just how you think it should be. No actual gameplay justifications have been used by anyone arguing against respecs, only what they THINK it should be based off their personal opinions or personal hatred (as seen above) of popular MMOs like WoW. Respecs are an absolutely essential part of enjoying the game for a large percentage of players and is the only way a strong theorycrafting community can develop. Allowing respecs does nothing to hurt others enjoyment of the game unless they exist in a petty mindset and are angry at others success.
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nerdbaneMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
I think you guys are missing the point, with /expensive/ respecs you will meet all sorts of people with HORRIBLE specs, like 1 point to everything or people maxing wrong powers... And they will refuse to change or let's say fix their builds because they will not waste money on this. And since this is a MMORPG every power&passive will change sooner or later, what will happen when your awesome-theorycrafted-build-of-doom will be nerfed to the ground? Will it worth it to play economics for couple of days, maybe weeks with your character just to become useful again?
Forums are full of geniuses with answers to every single thing and everyone is following X IP for 250 years but let's face it games are full of ...simple people who will ruin your fun.
What they should do is make a more reasonable price for respecs OR at least let players earn free respec tokens every 10-20 levels, just like an old Cryptic game City of Heroes...
This is incredibly discouraging to see. In any game that has a dedicated fanbase, multiple types of players emerge. Two of the biggest and most distinct groups (in MMOs especially) are often referred to as 'casuals' and 'hardcore'.
...
While I'll admit that what I said above (and as a rule has to be) is very generalized, it's mostly true. People that argue for no respecs use arguments such as: consequences matter, welcome to the real world, insulting min/maxers, etc. But that has no place in an MMO, especially one that is brand new. You're asking someone to spend tens of hours leveling a character with no resources in place to properly theorycraft to simply accept it because that is just how you think it should be. No actual gameplay justifications have been used by anyone arguing against respecs, only what they THINK it should be based off their personal opinions or personal hatred (as seen above) of popular MMOs like WoW. Respecs are an absolutely essential part of enjoying the game for a large percentage of players and is the only way a strong theorycrafting community can develop. Allowing respecs does nothing to hurt others enjoyment of the game unless they exist in a petty mindset and are angry at others success.
Your post is very spot on and is properly insightful to the issue at hand. These are well worded and excellently articulated points that will be promptly ignored by people from both camps. I just am quoting and replying so that you know that someone, somewhere is with you.
0
senseijohnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
There's plenty of people requesting common respecs...
But Respecs kill the Spirit of D&D.
Respecs are here because it is an MMO but hard-behind Dungeon Masters like myself don't even allow respecs and never would.
So it's the clash of two worlds with the compromise of adding them and not making them a common event.
Not true... see my full post on the subject and why this is an erroneous apples to oranges comparison...
I believe that using D&D as a comparison is indeed invalid. I feel that if you are going to use it as a branching point to create the Neverwinter universe you should embrace the fact that change is what will help the game evolve in a beneficial manner. Allowing it to become a game that people can enjoy from every facet of the gaming community (be it D20s, or MMO'ers).
It ought to simply be a mesh of D&D and modern pc MMO. Or in other words, an MMO set in the D&D universe. Taking D&D rules and philosophy too far simply will not work in an MMO port...any more than taking an absolutist's position of an MMO and forcing it into a paper game. There has to be some take and give...and allowing for a more freeing respec system is a necessary part of that give IMO. I suspect that as more people start to reach 60, this will become a bigger issue. Hopefully, the powers that be will listen instead of dismiss as it is never a good thing when devs think those who pay for and support the game are irrelevant (*cough*SimCity*cough*).
Normally I don't respond to threads like this, but the above quote is absolute horse ****. Nobody who is playing this game cares if you are a pen and paper DM. Pen and paper D&D and an MMO based off D&D are worlds apart. Pen and paper doesn't offer pvp which requires a drastically different spec than pve. People usually want to experience all aspects of a game (especially if they are paying). If you want pen and paper rules, go back to playing pen and paper. In pen and paper D&D, you don't tank a skirmish and a dungeon and then need to respec for more damage output to run your daily pvp and foundry. Tanks and healers (the backbone of any group) are affected most by this terribly designed system.
The reality is that charging cash for a respec isn't going to make you more money, it's going to run off customers.
+1
This game is fun, but it wont last long if they keep these prices up like this.
I think respecs should be less expensive so people are free to respec anytime they want to do PvP or PvE. The way it is now, you are pretty much forced to follow a guide/build if you don't wanna screw up your char.
0
apple93zMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
I remember a time when there were no such things as respecs in MMOs. You researched your character, made choices and, like life, lived and dealt with them. If you weren't happy with your end game, you created another character and developed it differently. This created a world where your choices mattered.
Playing multiple aspects of your class is something that's fun in video games. Most modern MMO's realize this, and offer ways to play multiple specs without completely breaking your bank in order to do so. I understand that you want to make money in your game. I understand that free to play games need to generate revenue. I understand that so much that I purchased both of the founder's packs, and I've purchased and spent some zen as well. I don't mind supporting a game at all, especially if it's one that I enjoy.
So, the power tree costing 600 zen doesn't bother me too much. If you sit down and really analyze what you want to do in this game with your character, you can path out several different builds to use at one time. That's where you should leave your high cost for respecs.
The feat tree is another story. The feat tree is what really molds what you want your character to do at a particular time, for a particular task. It's a short term choice (as I see it), and not a long term one. The fact that respeccing this tree at level 60 costs 151,000 AD is atrocious. I don't see it as greed, and I won't argue that point. I see it simply as this: it takes the fun away from experimenting and enjoying multiple facets of the game. For example, if you're playing a Guardian Fighter, you may want to tank some of the harder heroic instances specced down the protection tree for survival reasons. After completing your dungeon runs for the day, maybe you'd like to go do some PvP. The protection path is honestly a pretty terrible choice for PvP; the conqueror path may really have the talents you'd want to use right there. So you do a few matches after paying your 151k AD. Suddenly, a guildie asks if you'll tank an 8300 instance for them. Welp, time for another 151k. Add however many scenarios you want to this.
So, either the respec cost should be lowered drastically (the ratio of possible daily income vs. the cost of a respec is a little insane), or there needs to be some sort of dual spec system put in place. Once again, not because I want the game to be free in all aspects, but because I want certain aspects of the game to be more fun. This is one of them.
I 100% agree with this post!
0
dsolzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Comments
Going to google 'The one build to rule them all in Neverwinter'.
Please do not use google for your builds, that's what forums are for. You can see lots of feedbacks on builds.
Forum search sucks much like DDO it's easier to find a thread your looking for through google.
Not having separate class forums just makes it worse.
If this game even remotely was like actual D&D you may have actually had a point.
Well you are wrong about most of this post. It seems to refer to other games,in this game you need to make your choices count because they are long term and not easy to change..I like that a lot.
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
However this just isn't how it works. As a new player, taking your first steps with your character, it's impossible for you to make informed decisions about what your level 60 endgame build will be. And even if you somehow miraculously figured it out (or, which is much more likely, read it from forums), that build will be far from optimal for leveling up. Even at endgame, as your gear evolves and you come across progressively more difficult dungeons, you'll almost inevitably find you'll need to refine your build to survive the challenge.
Any character you play through to the endgame, and through the more difficult dungeons, WILL need to respec. Almost certainly several times. That's exactly the reason why it's cash-shop-only option, and will stay so. Because it's an excellent way to bring in revenue from players. It becomes relevant at the point in endgame where you are already committed to your character, where you've put enough hours to playing it that you'll figure throwing $6 to improve your build enough to clear that next dungeon (and to not be a liability to your guild) is worth it.
It's also a game and not real life. You're also forced to make choices with little or no information. It's also difficult to verify the information you do come across.
What prohibitive respec costs are akin to in the real world, going into college being forced to declare a major before starting and being forced to double your tuition or spend 12 years in school to change.
your post is a total contradiction you talk about how you want people to get into their character and become evolved with their character in an RP type setting. Nothing kills a persons RP and immersion with a character more so than having them make another character of the SAME type and play a different spec.
So the idea that it is a solution to prevent people from using builds they did not specifically create and plan, is just silly.
Other than you feeling upset about his post (which is all that one can possibly gather due to the lack of any point being made), what specifically is wrong (incorrect) about his post? Saying "nuh-uh" is neither compelling nor an actual objection (it is merely an expression of emotions).
Heads up...Neverwinter is a video game, not reality.
And the analogy between a burger flipper to neurosurgeon if false. Analogies require relevant similarities. The relevancy drawn from the flipper to doctor is that of gaining education and experience through discipline and effort. That exists as a leveling system from level 1 to 60.
Respeccing in game would be more similar to how a student changes their mind and focuses on a medical field specialty or how later they do so. It is both impractical (game wise) and unrealistic (reality wise) to not be able to change one's mind and adapt to new events or demands or even new knowledge that one gains. Those who are against being able to respec, are the ones not grounded in reality as there is no basis for it, and judging by the posts of this thread, there is neither significant support nor sound reasoning behind it.
This is incredibly discouraging to see. In any game that has a dedicated fanbase, multiple types of players emerge. Two of the biggest and most distinct groups (in MMOs especially) are often referred to as 'casuals' and 'hardcore'.
Hardcore players naturally see the benefits of min-maxing because they want to play the game optimally. They want to approach content and succeed based on their own skill, and don't mind others using the same talent build because a. if it's optimal, you should use it and b. competition is most exciting when everyone is on the same playing field.
Casual players play the game exactly how they want to. They enjoy playing in their own way, and if that means using a 2h sword when dual wielding or fire instead of frost even if it is suboptimal, so be it.
The worst thing that can happen in an MMO is when either of these two groups have players that become diehards. The way they play is correct, and why can't you understand? It's so obvious! Typically, I don't think it'd be absurd to say hardcore players fall prone to being diehards more than casuals. The casual style of play doesn't quite lend itself to being a diehard in the same way hardcore does.
However, a diehard casual is a thousand times more damaging to a game than a diehard hardocore. Hardcore players, even at their worst, want the game to be an even competition (class whiners/nerf every class but mine!!! players are separate and aren't related directly to either group) where your merit is what makes you succeed, and your effort put into the game (typically). Casual diehards, however, often make arguments like this. They argue against things like respecs, separate gear for PvP and PvE, etc. They want people to conform to their odd notions of what an MMO should be in a damaging way. They bring in ideas from outside the MMO community, that have no place inside an MMo community.
While I'll admit that what I said above (and as a rule has to be) is very generalized, it's mostly true. People that argue for no respecs use arguments such as: consequences matter, welcome to the real world, insulting min/maxers, etc. But that has no place in an MMO, especially one that is brand new. You're asking someone to spend tens of hours leveling a character with no resources in place to properly theorycraft to simply accept it because that is just how you think it should be. No actual gameplay justifications have been used by anyone arguing against respecs, only what they THINK it should be based off their personal opinions or personal hatred (as seen above) of popular MMOs like WoW. Respecs are an absolutely essential part of enjoying the game for a large percentage of players and is the only way a strong theorycrafting community can develop. Allowing respecs does nothing to hurt others enjoyment of the game unless they exist in a petty mindset and are angry at others success.
Forums are full of geniuses with answers to every single thing and everyone is following X IP for 250 years but let's face it games are full of ...simple people who will ruin your fun.
What they should do is make a more reasonable price for respecs OR at least let players earn free respec tokens every 10-20 levels, just like an old Cryptic game City of Heroes...
Your post is very spot on and is properly insightful to the issue at hand. These are well worded and excellently articulated points that will be promptly ignored by people from both camps. I just am quoting and replying so that you know that someone, somewhere is with you.
Not true... see my full post on the subject and why this is an erroneous apples to oranges comparison...
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?182302-Raise-the-cost-of-respec-s-(not-trolling)&p=2568142&viewfull=1#post2568142
I believe that using D&D as a comparison is indeed invalid. I feel that if you are going to use it as a branching point to create the Neverwinter universe you should embrace the fact that change is what will help the game evolve in a beneficial manner. Allowing it to become a game that people can enjoy from every facet of the gaming community (be it D20s, or MMO'ers).
+1
This game is fun, but it wont last long if they keep these prices up like this.
Respecs are not accessible enough. I'll only say bad things about this game to everyone I know.
Bye
I 100% agree with this post!