There's plenty of people requesting common respecs...
But Respecs kill the Spirit of D&D.
Respecs are here because it is an MMO but hard-behind Dungeon Masters like myself don't even allow respecs and never would.
So it's the clash of two worlds with the compromise of adding them and not making them a common event.
Hi,
Why does it kill D&D? I am new to the D&D universe, but I do not understand how changing up a spec would kill a game.
Mass Effect 3 is not an MMO, its a shooter. I can respect there either by class promotion, which resets you to level 0 for that class and takes a mere 2 hours to get to max level again(which I do this often for the shear purpose of respeccing), or a respec power 'perk' that you obtain.
Adding onto the OPs concern: I agree. Again, Im new to this game's 'universe' and style, and I em enjoying it very much. I've said since day one(which was only a week or two ago), that the one thing that would probably kill this game for me is the cash shop. Little things like this concerning the cash shop that are brought to my attention via forums, zone chat, or my own exploration, are slowly eating away at my desire to invest time into the game. Right now, I still want to. But if I see that every single aspect of this game is tied to Zen or AD, its going to get old REAL fast.
I understand its free to download and play for a lot of people. But having every single aspect of the game tied into cash shop or AD is a bit rediculous.
I understand char recustomizations, renames, more character slots, more bank space, XP boosts, vanity items, etc are good examples of 'allowable' items in a shop.
I dont understand that we only have 2 character slots available(3 would be hugely better), buy top gear, buy bags, buy a respec...I dont understand this and its slowly getting annoying.
I like the game so far and if NW is able to keep me longer than the traditional 1-2 month period, I usually stay for 6-12 months, or longer, and with a F2P game I spend money every month.
No ultimatums, but I would like it if Cryptic would tread carefully here. Id love to be here for longer than a month, spending some money each month supporting an already good game at its core. It would be a shame for something like the cash shop to ruin it for me.
I remember a time when there were no such things as respecs in MMOs. You researched your character, made choices and, like life, lived and dealt with them. If you weren't happy with your end game, you created another character and developed it differently. This created a world where your choices mattered.
The attitude I see here seems to be indicative of a larger societal problem where people don't want to be responsible for their actions or deal with the reprocussions of their choices.
Lol...you're kidding, right? Video games are an escape from things that actually matter. I'll make my important decisions at work and with my family, and play games to have fun.
I totally agree. I actually wanted to make a topic about this myself until i saw this.
Now how i play a mmo is always like this: (and i know lots of people do it this way)
-play the game and build ur character like u think is good.
-hit max lvl and try to make the best build u can ever think of or get something from the internet.
now its a pain in the *** u can't respec cuz then u have to make new characters over and over and over again.
My opinion about this system.
Make the respec as a item u can buy for a lot of gold (super rare item)
tl,DR; But I disagree with your title. If you don't plan ahead, play the game and throw points into whatever skill you feel like at the time, with no end-game goal or strategy in mind, then NO, you do not deserve a free/cheap respec.
You should have thought of how you were going to build your character earlier, plain and simple. I don't want some kid following the latest builds he finds on the internet, without doing any sort of planning/calculations at all, that is just stupid. You should need to plan your character right from level one, and level up his skills/attributes/powers/feats accordingly.
tl,DR; But I disagree with your title. If you don't plan ahead, play the game and throw points into whatever skill you feel like at the time, with no end-game goal or strategy in mind, then NO, you do not deserve a free/cheap respec.
You should have thought of how you were going to build your character earlier, plain and simple. I don't want some kid following the latest builds he finds on the internet, without doing any sort of planning/calculations at all, that is just stupid. You should need to plan your character right from level one, and level up his skills/attributes/powers/feats accordingly.
You don't reward the unprepared.
Actually, a higher barrier to respeccing encourages people to play "OP" builds posted on the internet.
It hurts the kids you are describing that just allocate points willy-nilly and end with a gimped build, since they can't fix their errors without shelling out cash. It limits creativity and experimentation, and gimps the potential of the game.
It is also not reasonable to assume you can understand the best build for your needs just by reading the tool-tips.
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syle123Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
lack of easly obtainable respecs is plain stupid if the game is set in stone - make a game with skills that work like skyrim - than there is no need for respecs - if you make it it like you did and just copy skill trees from other mmos than also copy respecting and/or multiple specs
plain and simple
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zyanzorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 14Arc User
Playing multiple aspects of your class is something that's fun in video games. Most modern MMO's realize this, and offer ways to play multiple specs without completely breaking your bank in order to do so. I understand that you want to make money in your game. I understand that free to play games need to generate revenue. I understand that so much that I purchased both of the founder's packs, and I've purchased and spent some zen as well. I don't mind supporting a game at all, especially if it's one that I enjoy.
So, the power tree costing 600 zen doesn't bother me too much. If you sit down and really analyze what you want to do in this game with your character, you can path out several different builds to use at one time. That's where you should leave your high cost for respecs.
The feat tree is another story. The feat tree is what really molds what you want your character to do at a particular time, for a particular task. It's a short term choice (as I see it), and not a long term one. The fact that respeccing this tree at level 60 costs 151,000 AD is atrocious. I don't see it as greed, and I won't argue that point. I see it simply as this: it takes the fun away from experimenting and enjoying multiple facets of the game. For example, if you're playing a Guardian Fighter, you may want to tank some of the harder heroic instances specced down the protection tree for survival reasons. After completing your dungeon runs for the day, maybe you'd like to go do some PvP. The protection path is honestly a pretty terrible choice for PvP; the conqueror path may really have the talents you'd want to use right there. So you do a few matches after paying your 151k AD. Suddenly, a guildie asks if you'll tank an 8300 instance for them. Welp, time for another 151k. Add however many scenarios you want to this.
So, either the respec cost should be lowered drastically (the ratio of possible daily income vs. the cost of a respec is a little insane), or there needs to be some sort of dual spec system put in place. Once again, not because I want the game to be free in all aspects, but because I want certain aspects of the game to be more fun. This is one of them.
You answered your own question. The "other" MMO's you've played either had a monthly sub or you had to pay to download. NW is free to download and free to play so PerfectWorld needs to get their income from somewhere and what better place to get it than in respeccing?
Ya, that is a lot of AD but, have faith. I'm sure once PW makes their money back for the creation of this game and start making a profit, they will lower the cost.
PS: Don't ever expect a dual spec mechanic in this game, ever.
Actually, a higher barrier to respeccing encourages people to play "OP" builds posted on the internet.
It hurts the kids you are describing that just allocate points willy-nilly and end with a gimped build, since they can't fix their errors without shelling out cash. It limits creativity and experimentation, and gimps the potential of the game.
It is also not reasonable to assume you can understand the best build for your needs just by reading the tool-tips.
Dude go play PoE. Their skill tree has over 1200 nodes. You get 0 re-specs. you can re-spec 5-6 nodes sure, but no full respecs.
How do you get optimal builds? You read the tooltips and stop being lazy. You guys just want to get spoon-fed the 'best builds' and don't want to do any theorycrafting/math yourselves. Well you can SMD, and pay PWE for all of your little re-specs.
The way respecs work currently there is no way to run a PvE/PvP character, you have to make separate characters for each gamemode. It reeks of cash-grabbing, you either need to use your only free character slot to level the same class again, or you spend a fortune of real money changing specs.
We need a dual spec feature or 1 free respec each day.
Dude go play PoE. Their skill tree has over 1200 nodes. You get 0 re-specs. you can re-spec 5-6 nodes sure, but no full respecs.
How do you get optimal builds? You read the tooltips and stop being lazy. You guys just want to get spoon-fed the 'best builds' and don't want to do any theorycrafting/math yourselves. Well you can SMD, and pay PWE for all of your little re-specs.
Its no fault but your own if you need a re-spec.
You're right, I just want everything spoon fed to me and don't want to do any thinking or TC for myself. None at all. I'm not the type to really dwell on a subject. I offered my opinion based on a 15 year+ gaming history and what has been successful in past games for things such as longevity. I enjoy this game, and when I find a situation I don't like (like the respec situation), I might make a post (like I did in this case), and then I'll think outside of the box and make the situation work for me. In this case, I created a spec that can accomplish multiple facets of the game with the class that I chose, all but negating the need for respecs at all. I still feel my post is justified, as it was simply a suggestion / observation. Thanks for the bump.
You're right, I just want everything spoon fed to me and don't want to do any thinking or TC for myself. None at all. I'm not the type to really dwell on a subject. I offered my opinion based on a 15 year+ gaming history and what has been successful in past games for things such as longevity. I enjoy this game, and when I find a situation I don't like (like the respec situation), I might make a post (like I did in this case), and then I'll think outside of the box and make the situation work for me. In this case, I created a spec that can accomplish multiple facets of the game with the class that I chose, all but negating the need for respecs at all. I still feel my post is justified, as it was simply a suggestion / observation. Thanks for the bump.
It's difficult to wade through the regular QQ to find quality posters in these forums, because the majority of posters seem to be crying incessantly about having to pay 2$ to do something.
Sorry I didn't recognize the fact that you have actually done the work. I still don't think people should be able to re-spec on a whim, though.
TLDR version- Respecing should be a rare event as it introduces content balance issues that punish the average player without rewarding the ideal spec builders.
Long Version-
One of the issues that respeccing in a MMO generates is that it starts to become much harder to balance the difficulty of content / power of abilities when players can freely respec. The developer has to assume that every player will have the most extreme spec for every activity, and you have to plan the *base* difficulty of any encounter towards that spec. When this effectively does is reverse the reward structure of a character build from a good spec giving a slight advantage in a given situation into a imperfect spec punishing a player. If respecs are rare, the content designers can shoot for a middle of the road approach where all content is challenging and/or mildly difficult for a non-optimized or jack-of-all-trades and slightly less so for a character who is built to excel at one particular facet/challenge in the game.
I do think that every character *should* receive one free respec towards the middle of their life, say level 30, simply to be able to hash out some bad choices that are inevitably made.
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errrrrrrwtfMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 6Arc User
Dude go play PoE. Their skill tree has over 1200 nodes. You get 0 re-specs. you can re-spec 5-6 nodes sure, but no full respecs.
I come from PoE, and you cannot be more wrong. First of all, PoE items aren't character bound. You can experiment builds by leveling a new character to reasonably high level, and then pass him the gear you've collected on your other characters. In this game you are forced to both level up a new char and find a new copy of your gear, which isn't reasonable. Secondly, even if you were to respec in PoE, a typical high level char only needs around 100 regret orbs to completely restart from scratch, which isn't bank breaking for someone running high end content. For a "partial" respec you need a lot less. Again this is not even close to what Neverwinter has currently.
How do you get optimal builds? You read the tooltips and stop being lazy. You guys just want to get spoon-fed the 'best builds' and don't want to do any theorycrafting/math yourselves. Well you can SMD, and pay PWE for all of your little re-specs.
Its no fault but your own if you need a re-spec.
You would be correct if the tooltips tell you everything you need to know about the skills, which they don't. People are interested in knowing the precise mechanics of the game; it's part of the fun of playing any game, especially one involving complex interactions of skills. You accuse people of wanting spoon-feeding, it's actually exactly the opposite: the people who want the respecs are the ones that will end up spoon-feeding the likes of you, who clearly have no understanding of (nor interest in) the importance of theorycrafting.
The debate in this thread has been derailed by the early "communty manager" in the most irresponsible fashion. The point is never about DnD immersion. If respec truly isn't in the spirit of DnD, and that the game strives to give a DnD experience, then simply don't allow it. You don't give characters AK47's and have them ride in motorcycles for a few hundred thousand astral diamonds, do you? Making it possible but putting a hefty price tag on it, especially knowing its eventual popularity is blatant money-grabbing. And as someone previously pointed out, this type of behaviors from devs is the quickest thing to deter and drive away seasoned theorycrafters and MMO veterans to other games. Note that these are the precise people you want playing your game for the long haul because they give informed and expert opinions on your balance and content, which in the end improve the game over the years.
I come from many other MMOs, many of which failed not long after launch, and some survived over the years to some degree of success. I've had great hopes for this game and have purchased the guardian pack and rushed my character to 60 and geared him up. But so far from what I've seen, I cannot recommend the game with any sincerity. The ridiculous respec cost, the constant spamming of inferno mount acquisition messages and the stringent bag space all point to a very unpleasant truth, one that I have dreaded facing all along. The makers of the game clearly want your money now, and don't care if the game dwindles down to just another F2P MMO like many others have gone. I sure hope I'm proven wrong, because I am getting tired of being disappointed.
There's plenty of people requesting common respecs...
But Respecs kill the Spirit of D&D.
Respecs are here because it is an MMO but hard-behind Dungeon Masters like myself don't even allow respecs and never would.
So it's the clash of two worlds with the compromise of adding them and not making them a common event.
Below is my verbose, but to the point objection and response. Hopefully it will be considered as reasonable vs a typical wall-o-text rant (which it is not).
I understand and appreciate your position. However, the problem with that line of reasoning (more anti-respeccing than pro) is that it is simply behind the times. There is a reason that the AD&D universe has been dramatically declining. Technology, culture, and expectations change over time. Much like the b&w television gave way to bigger and better things that have now become accepted to be the norm, so too do many ideas and practices. It's one thing to value certain ideals and traditions, it's quite another however to do so to the degree that it is harmful to one's business. And this game is a business. It is intended to be fun and enjoyable of course...but ultimately, it is intended to make money. If it does not make a sufficient profit, then no amount of "fun factor" can keep it alive.
Profit is the applause of a job well done. The job here is to provide as much fun and entertainment to your player base. If it is the case that most players, who by now, have substantial MMO experience probably, are already accustomed to the concept of respeccing (for reasons explained in the op), it will be extremely difficult to make up for not meeting this expectation.
So there are 2 possibilities...
1) Maintain the anti-respec mentality (but giving the least amount as possible and saying it is a fair compromise, which is seemingly still unacceptable to many players) - this is what you have done
or
2) Grant the player base a more friendly respec system that is modern and typical of most other popular MMO's (this is not the same as respec for free mind you).
#2 seemingly solves the problem of maximizing enjoyment, expectations and profit (which IMO, is what any good game aims to deliver...and are what games such as Diablo III, Sims 2013, Aliens: Colonial Marines, etc... failed to do as per their player base and reviews).
#1 requires providing sufficient enjoyment in other areas of the game so that respeccing at such a high cost and sacrifice can be seen as being "worth it." That is, the value of respeccing in a similar fashion to other modern MMO's would need to be replaced with a different value to the gamer. Does the game do that? I realize that the dev/staff default position is "yes"...but then, that almost always is a more egocentric worldview. It is the same view of the devs of the failed games mentioned above. The players claimed the developers were simply not listening to the community and the studios paid a huge price for not doing so. It means that the devs/staff are building a game for the devs/staff, not necessarily for the players...and that is always a bad business model.
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That being said...this is my admittedly subjective position...
I'm a 40 yr old gamer. I played paper D&D in the '80's. Loved it. I enjoyed the idea of 1 character life (in most circumstances), if you blow it, re-roll...don't take unnecessary risks and be careless w/ your main/primary character! But like most other players, I grew out of it eventually. I love the genre, I love rpg's/mmo's.
I'm much older now and I have less time to spend playing games (even though I am still an avid gamer). I work full-time (own a business) and am back in school part-time. I am married and have 2 young children. A part of my leisure time is spent gaming. I know I'm not alone. Statistics show that this demographic is rather significant. I know several other adult gamers in a similar situation (there are huge guilds dedicated to adult gamers).
I love F2P games because it allows me to demo them before I commit to them. The amount of money is not an issue to me. Value is an issue. Is what I'm spending worth the cost to me in both time and money being spent? That is, will I get $199, $100, or $60 of enjoyment out of a game? If so, I have no reservations spending it, it's the cost of entertainment, nothing more.
That being said...I'm on the fence about spending any money in this game because I'm brand spankin' new to this game and I know I'm going to make many mistakes along the way. After playing several MMO's, I'm accustomed to being able to recover from my mistakes in a reasonable manner. If it is the case that in order to recover from a mistake that I will have to re-roll or pay an exorbitant cost, then I have lost both time and money. I'm not a fan of losing either. I have no intent to re-roll a max'd character because of mistakes made leveling up and not planning for the end game from the beginning of my level 1 character. Nor do I have any intent to continually pay crazy costs to pay for those mistakes. This would seem to mean then, that either the game is not for me (because of such an outdated gaming/business model that appears to have been shown to be unsuccessful in other games) or that NW is not hitting a key demographic that would increase revenue and player loyalty/satisfaction (in which case, it would be a poor business model). The only exception I can think of is that as mentioned above, there is something else about the game that replaces the value of being able to respec similarly to other games. Me being brand new, I do not know what that could be (so I'm open to them if you or anyone else can explain what they may be).
tldr:
The past couple days I've been contemplating on whether or not I should buy the founder's package. The reason I'm on the fence is because I'm concerned about not being able to respec in a fair, and reasonable manner. For me, it's a done deal if I know I can always change my mind later in how I play the game (w/o crazy cost or loss of time). But because of your more hardline stance on the issue, I'm reserved and simply cannot commit to spending any money on the game. It does not seem that my demographic is one which is being considered, and that is disturbing because I'm part of a rather large demographic.
Having to respec with real money is the worst possible thing you could do on an MMO, It kills every theorycrafter out there including myself. And that's horrible for a game.
Whiteout mentioning that at moment is impossible to go around with 2 different specs = you will have to chose between being effective in pvp or pve, or aim to mediocrity(not an option).
This is such a huge point being made. I really hope devs take it to heart. Theorycrafting didn't exist back then as it does now. Theorycrafting is incredibly popular and seemingly widely accepted as a norm in modern mmo gaming. I do not know of a single successful MMO that discouraged theorycrafting. And if there are 1 or 2, it would seem to indicate it being the exception and must have something rather unique or special about it so that theorycrafting isn't as important in that game. Is NW like that? If so, how so?
I'd be surprised if any successful game could be mentioned that discourages theorycrafting (like NW apparently does atm).
On the tabletop, not letting my friends respec makes them more attached to their characters. Your character in a rp-type setting should be something that's evolved over time, a reflection of you (or at least the character you're pretending to be).
I'd like it if there was no option to respec in any mmo, an expensive respec is the next best thing.
The games downloading now, and I haven't played it yet (so forgive me if I'm mistaken) but if it really bothers you can't you run two characters of the same class?
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Also, while on the topic I hate the hand-holding most mmos seem to employ over the past few years. A game that makes you think before you act, and punishes you for your choices is more rewarding then the usual.
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Though I will add, when a classes skills are changed/nerfed/buffed/rebalanced, I think everyone of that class should have a free respec.
On the tabletop, not letting my friends respec makes them more attached to their characters. Your character in a rp-type setting should be something that's evolved over time, a reflection of you (or at least the character you're pretending to be).
The thing is, Neverwinter is not a PnP session with friends, but a MMO with competitive aspects. Not just PvP, but also PvE where the game displays detailed statistics at the end of a dungeon run. You can make yourself free from that, and there are enough power points to get pretty much any skill and spell that you want (many more than you can use at the same time), so there is room for poorly placed points without "gimping" the character. But I think there is a good chance that most people who play this game have a MMO background rather than a PnP one. (Not mutually exclusive, as I have done both for many years, though my PnP system of choice was mostly Paranoia.)
I've said it before, I'll say it again: reroll = respec
I'm personally glad there isn't two specs or easy access to respec, it means that only those who really want to succeed at a particular portion of the game will do so. Making things more difficult for low information people is fine by me.
Of course, that is an extremely egocentric position. Is the game developed to cater to the fewer, hardcore gamers? Or is it intended to make a sufficient profit by trying to capture a portion of the much competitive mmo market? I don't believe it can do both as I don't believe there are enough hardcore players like yourself to support a huge endeavor such as NW in a meaningful (profitable) way.
The thing is, Neverwinter is not a PnP session with friends, but a MMO with competitive aspects. Not just PvP, but also PvE where the game displays detailed statistics at the end of a dungeon run. You can make yourself free from that, and there are enough power points to get pretty much any skill and spell that you want (many more than you can use at the same time), so there is room for poorly placed points without "gimping" the character. But I think there is a good chance that most people who play this game have a MMO background rather than a PnP one. (Not mutually exclusive, as I have done both for many years, though my PnP system of choice was mostly Paranoia.)
Indeed, I believe that in a competitive situation making people think before they act is overall more rewarding though. I wont bother for now, but when I do get around to more competitive play after beta, I plan my character in advance on paper, because that's the more competitive way to play.
Honestly though, most of my reason for not wanting cheap respecs is it's just one thing that makes what should be competitive play into a casualfest, something that's made mostly all the recent mmos that's come out (that I've tried) not as rewarding as the older mmos I've stuck with. Games are, for the most part, getting too easy. Part of that (albeit a small part) is due to not needing to plan anything.
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On the topic of theorycrafting, not having the free respecs in a game makes me theorycraft more so then if we did have them. People who plan for hypothetical situations and create a build accordingly in advance should be given an advantage over those who casual it.
In other news 4.42% downloaded lol /emo
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keterysMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
So, I do think the respec cost sucks. It particularly sucks given some of the obfuscated information in the system, and the difficulty in trying out powers beforehand. I actually really feel the power spec system could use some major improvements.
But, at the same time, napkin math on respec says it's pretty dealable to get with AD. I've been doing some AH-ing and invoking, and not a ton else, and I'm up over 30k ADs. That's enough for a respec right there. It's not an ideal situation, but it's made me worry a bit less about it.
Anyhow, big thing in case you don't know: Foundry lets you make up to level 31 characters to test things. Mind you, the characters are buggy and have awful stats so it's not great, but it's a solid way to test many powers and check the math on many feats. I was quite happy to see that several of the 1% more healing / damage from Wisdom / Intelligence type feats just add 1% per point, and shouldn't mention Int or Wis at all to avoid confusion. I was glad to find out in advance (though sad at the horribleness) that the 1% of your Power adds to your Recovery type feats are garbage, cause yeah if you have 100 Power it adds 1 to your Recovery which in turn gives you (nothing useful). Percents of percents.
On the tabletop, not letting my friends respec makes them more attached to their characters. Your character in a rp-type setting should be something that's evolved over time, a reflection of you (or at least the character you're pretending to be).
I'd like it if there was no option to respec in any mmo, an expensive respec is the next best thing.
Again, this is bad reasoning because it is a false analogy.
I completely understand and agree with you re: it works tabletop. However, the D&D tabletop business model is not the same as a video game's.
Are your friends willing to pay $40-$60 for every new character they wish to play? Are they restricted to only ever creating a couple characters? Do your table-top friends participate in pvp battles with numerous other players?
See my previous, verbose post as to why this particular position (of yours) is not sustainable in a modern mmo.
But, at the same time, napkin math on respec says it's pretty dealable to get with AD. I've been doing some AH-ing and invoking, and not a ton else, and I'm up over 30k ADs.
The respec token costs $6 or 600 Zen. 30k AD, at current exchange rates (480:1), equals 62.5 cents/Zen, or 10% of a respec token. (Feats can be respecced for just AD, but power points need a token.)
How do you get optimal builds? You read the tooltips and stop being lazy.
As has been pointed out numerous times (both in this thread and in others), the tooltips are insufficient or misleading to base a sound spec decision on.
You guys just want to get spoon-fed the 'best builds' and don't want to do any theorycrafting/math yourselves.
I want to do as little theorycrafting as possible and would rather play to figure it out. Like all things in life, experience comes by doing, not by reading. And I have neither the time nor interest (for reasons explained in my rather verbose post above) to do any serious number crunching. Not everyone has the luxury of time nor the interest to be out of game and roll spreadsheets of data to make a decision on which feat or skill to take next.
I'm not sure which is worse...those insisting that everyone does have the time or those suggesting that people ought to have the interest. I do know that those who do both...are, are using the least amount of reason possible however. And that is never a good thing.
I want to do as little theorycrafting as possible and would rather play to figure it out. Like all things in life, experience comes by doing, not by reading .... Not everyone has the luxury of time nor the interest to be out of game and roll spreadsheets of data to make a decision on which feat or skill to take next.
Soooo, someone who just does a google search should have the same build as someone who took 2-3 hours to plan it out to make sure they were building optimally? ...
Comments
Meant to say my previous comment with a quote... lol
Hi,
Why does it kill D&D? I am new to the D&D universe, but I do not understand how changing up a spec would kill a game.
Mass Effect 3 is not an MMO, its a shooter. I can respect there either by class promotion, which resets you to level 0 for that class and takes a mere 2 hours to get to max level again(which I do this often for the shear purpose of respeccing), or a respec power 'perk' that you obtain.
I understand its free to download and play for a lot of people. But having every single aspect of the game tied into cash shop or AD is a bit rediculous.
I understand char recustomizations, renames, more character slots, more bank space, XP boosts, vanity items, etc are good examples of 'allowable' items in a shop.
I dont understand that we only have 2 character slots available(3 would be hugely better), buy top gear, buy bags, buy a respec...I dont understand this and its slowly getting annoying.
I like the game so far and if NW is able to keep me longer than the traditional 1-2 month period, I usually stay for 6-12 months, or longer, and with a F2P game I spend money every month.
No ultimatums, but I would like it if Cryptic would tread carefully here. Id love to be here for longer than a month, spending some money each month supporting an already good game at its core. It would be a shame for something like the cash shop to ruin it for me.
Lol...you're kidding, right? Video games are an escape from things that actually matter. I'll make my important decisions at work and with my family, and play games to have fun.
Now how i play a mmo is always like this: (and i know lots of people do it this way)
-play the game and build ur character like u think is good.
-hit max lvl and try to make the best build u can ever think of or get something from the internet.
now its a pain in the *** u can't respec cuz then u have to make new characters over and over and over again.
My opinion about this system.
Make the respec as a item u can buy for a lot of gold (super rare item)
You should have thought of how you were going to build your character earlier, plain and simple. I don't want some kid following the latest builds he finds on the internet, without doing any sort of planning/calculations at all, that is just stupid. You should need to plan your character right from level one, and level up his skills/attributes/powers/feats accordingly.
You don't reward the unprepared.
Actually, a higher barrier to respeccing encourages people to play "OP" builds posted on the internet.
It hurts the kids you are describing that just allocate points willy-nilly and end with a gimped build, since they can't fix their errors without shelling out cash. It limits creativity and experimentation, and gimps the potential of the game.
It is also not reasonable to assume you can understand the best build for your needs just by reading the tool-tips.
plain and simple
You answered your own question. The "other" MMO's you've played either had a monthly sub or you had to pay to download. NW is free to download and free to play so PerfectWorld needs to get their income from somewhere and what better place to get it than in respeccing?
Ya, that is a lot of AD but, have faith. I'm sure once PW makes their money back for the creation of this game and start making a profit, they will lower the cost.
PS: Don't ever expect a dual spec mechanic in this game, ever.
Because lots of people just first when they level up, make/build and play there character like they think is the best.
When they hit lvl cap players want to make their character as powerfull as possible (this is the idea behind every mmorpg)
Now 99% of the time you will need to respec cuz u probably didnt focus on anything.
and what if people want to pvp everyonce in a while????
buy respec before u go into pvp?
this is not very player friendly people. try to think logic.
p.s. sry for my bad english
Dude go play PoE. Their skill tree has over 1200 nodes. You get 0 re-specs. you can re-spec 5-6 nodes sure, but no full respecs.
How do you get optimal builds? You read the tooltips and stop being lazy. You guys just want to get spoon-fed the 'best builds' and don't want to do any theorycrafting/math yourselves. Well you can SMD, and pay PWE for all of your little re-specs.
Its no fault but your own if you need a re-spec.
We need a dual spec feature or 1 free respec each day.
You're right, I just want everything spoon fed to me and don't want to do any thinking or TC for myself. None at all. I'm not the type to really dwell on a subject. I offered my opinion based on a 15 year+ gaming history and what has been successful in past games for things such as longevity. I enjoy this game, and when I find a situation I don't like (like the respec situation), I might make a post (like I did in this case), and then I'll think outside of the box and make the situation work for me. In this case, I created a spec that can accomplish multiple facets of the game with the class that I chose, all but negating the need for respecs at all. I still feel my post is justified, as it was simply a suggestion / observation. Thanks for the bump.
It's difficult to wade through the regular QQ to find quality posters in these forums, because the majority of posters seem to be crying incessantly about having to pay 2$ to do something.
Sorry I didn't recognize the fact that you have actually done the work. I still don't think people should be able to re-spec on a whim, though.
TLDR version- Respecing should be a rare event as it introduces content balance issues that punish the average player without rewarding the ideal spec builders.
Long Version-
One of the issues that respeccing in a MMO generates is that it starts to become much harder to balance the difficulty of content / power of abilities when players can freely respec. The developer has to assume that every player will have the most extreme spec for every activity, and you have to plan the *base* difficulty of any encounter towards that spec. When this effectively does is reverse the reward structure of a character build from a good spec giving a slight advantage in a given situation into a imperfect spec punishing a player. If respecs are rare, the content designers can shoot for a middle of the road approach where all content is challenging and/or mildly difficult for a non-optimized or jack-of-all-trades and slightly less so for a character who is built to excel at one particular facet/challenge in the game.
I do think that every character *should* receive one free respec towards the middle of their life, say level 30, simply to be able to hash out some bad choices that are inevitably made.
I come from PoE, and you cannot be more wrong. First of all, PoE items aren't character bound. You can experiment builds by leveling a new character to reasonably high level, and then pass him the gear you've collected on your other characters. In this game you are forced to both level up a new char and find a new copy of your gear, which isn't reasonable. Secondly, even if you were to respec in PoE, a typical high level char only needs around 100 regret orbs to completely restart from scratch, which isn't bank breaking for someone running high end content. For a "partial" respec you need a lot less. Again this is not even close to what Neverwinter has currently.
You would be correct if the tooltips tell you everything you need to know about the skills, which they don't. People are interested in knowing the precise mechanics of the game; it's part of the fun of playing any game, especially one involving complex interactions of skills. You accuse people of wanting spoon-feeding, it's actually exactly the opposite: the people who want the respecs are the ones that will end up spoon-feeding the likes of you, who clearly have no understanding of (nor interest in) the importance of theorycrafting.
The debate in this thread has been derailed by the early "communty manager" in the most irresponsible fashion. The point is never about DnD immersion. If respec truly isn't in the spirit of DnD, and that the game strives to give a DnD experience, then simply don't allow it. You don't give characters AK47's and have them ride in motorcycles for a few hundred thousand astral diamonds, do you? Making it possible but putting a hefty price tag on it, especially knowing its eventual popularity is blatant money-grabbing. And as someone previously pointed out, this type of behaviors from devs is the quickest thing to deter and drive away seasoned theorycrafters and MMO veterans to other games. Note that these are the precise people you want playing your game for the long haul because they give informed and expert opinions on your balance and content, which in the end improve the game over the years.
I come from many other MMOs, many of which failed not long after launch, and some survived over the years to some degree of success. I've had great hopes for this game and have purchased the guardian pack and rushed my character to 60 and geared him up. But so far from what I've seen, I cannot recommend the game with any sincerity. The ridiculous respec cost, the constant spamming of inferno mount acquisition messages and the stringent bag space all point to a very unpleasant truth, one that I have dreaded facing all along. The makers of the game clearly want your money now, and don't care if the game dwindles down to just another F2P MMO like many others have gone. I sure hope I'm proven wrong, because I am getting tired of being disappointed.
I understand and appreciate your position. However, the problem with that line of reasoning (more anti-respeccing than pro) is that it is simply behind the times. There is a reason that the AD&D universe has been dramatically declining. Technology, culture, and expectations change over time. Much like the b&w television gave way to bigger and better things that have now become accepted to be the norm, so too do many ideas and practices. It's one thing to value certain ideals and traditions, it's quite another however to do so to the degree that it is harmful to one's business. And this game is a business. It is intended to be fun and enjoyable of course...but ultimately, it is intended to make money. If it does not make a sufficient profit, then no amount of "fun factor" can keep it alive.
Profit is the applause of a job well done. The job here is to provide as much fun and entertainment to your player base. If it is the case that most players, who by now, have substantial MMO experience probably, are already accustomed to the concept of respeccing (for reasons explained in the op), it will be extremely difficult to make up for not meeting this expectation.
So there are 2 possibilities...
1) Maintain the anti-respec mentality (but giving the least amount as possible and saying it is a fair compromise, which is seemingly still unacceptable to many players) - this is what you have done
or
2) Grant the player base a more friendly respec system that is modern and typical of most other popular MMO's (this is not the same as respec for free mind you).
#2 seemingly solves the problem of maximizing enjoyment, expectations and profit (which IMO, is what any good game aims to deliver...and are what games such as Diablo III, Sims 2013, Aliens: Colonial Marines, etc... failed to do as per their player base and reviews).
#1 requires providing sufficient enjoyment in other areas of the game so that respeccing at such a high cost and sacrifice can be seen as being "worth it." That is, the value of respeccing in a similar fashion to other modern MMO's would need to be replaced with a different value to the gamer. Does the game do that? I realize that the dev/staff default position is "yes"...but then, that almost always is a more egocentric worldview. It is the same view of the devs of the failed games mentioned above. The players claimed the developers were simply not listening to the community and the studios paid a huge price for not doing so. It means that the devs/staff are building a game for the devs/staff, not necessarily for the players...and that is always a bad business model.
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That being said...this is my admittedly subjective position...
I'm a 40 yr old gamer. I played paper D&D in the '80's. Loved it. I enjoyed the idea of 1 character life (in most circumstances), if you blow it, re-roll...don't take unnecessary risks and be careless w/ your main/primary character! But like most other players, I grew out of it eventually. I love the genre, I love rpg's/mmo's.
I'm much older now and I have less time to spend playing games (even though I am still an avid gamer). I work full-time (own a business) and am back in school part-time. I am married and have 2 young children. A part of my leisure time is spent gaming. I know I'm not alone. Statistics show that this demographic is rather significant. I know several other adult gamers in a similar situation (there are huge guilds dedicated to adult gamers).
I love F2P games because it allows me to demo them before I commit to them. The amount of money is not an issue to me. Value is an issue. Is what I'm spending worth the cost to me in both time and money being spent? That is, will I get $199, $100, or $60 of enjoyment out of a game? If so, I have no reservations spending it, it's the cost of entertainment, nothing more.
That being said...I'm on the fence about spending any money in this game because I'm brand spankin' new to this game and I know I'm going to make many mistakes along the way. After playing several MMO's, I'm accustomed to being able to recover from my mistakes in a reasonable manner. If it is the case that in order to recover from a mistake that I will have to re-roll or pay an exorbitant cost, then I have lost both time and money. I'm not a fan of losing either. I have no intent to re-roll a max'd character because of mistakes made leveling up and not planning for the end game from the beginning of my level 1 character. Nor do I have any intent to continually pay crazy costs to pay for those mistakes. This would seem to mean then, that either the game is not for me (because of such an outdated gaming/business model that appears to have been shown to be unsuccessful in other games) or that NW is not hitting a key demographic that would increase revenue and player loyalty/satisfaction (in which case, it would be a poor business model). The only exception I can think of is that as mentioned above, there is something else about the game that replaces the value of being able to respec similarly to other games. Me being brand new, I do not know what that could be (so I'm open to them if you or anyone else can explain what they may be).
tldr:
The past couple days I've been contemplating on whether or not I should buy the founder's package. The reason I'm on the fence is because I'm concerned about not being able to respec in a fair, and reasonable manner. For me, it's a done deal if I know I can always change my mind later in how I play the game (w/o crazy cost or loss of time). But because of your more hardline stance on the issue, I'm reserved and simply cannot commit to spending any money on the game. It does not seem that my demographic is one which is being considered, and that is disturbing because I'm part of a rather large demographic.
I'd be surprised if any successful game could be mentioned that discourages theorycrafting (like NW apparently does atm).
I'd like it if there was no option to respec in any mmo, an expensive respec is the next best thing.
The games downloading now, and I haven't played it yet (so forgive me if I'm mistaken) but if it really bothers you can't you run two characters of the same class?
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Also, while on the topic I hate the hand-holding most mmos seem to employ over the past few years. A game that makes you think before you act, and punishes you for your choices is more rewarding then the usual.
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Though I will add, when a classes skills are changed/nerfed/buffed/rebalanced, I think everyone of that class should have a free respec.
The thing is, Neverwinter is not a PnP session with friends, but a MMO with competitive aspects. Not just PvP, but also PvE where the game displays detailed statistics at the end of a dungeon run. You can make yourself free from that, and there are enough power points to get pretty much any skill and spell that you want (many more than you can use at the same time), so there is room for poorly placed points without "gimping" the character. But I think there is a good chance that most people who play this game have a MMO background rather than a PnP one. (Not mutually exclusive, as I have done both for many years, though my PnP system of choice was mostly Paranoia.)
Indeed, I believe that in a competitive situation making people think before they act is overall more rewarding though. I wont bother for now, but when I do get around to more competitive play after beta, I plan my character in advance on paper, because that's the more competitive way to play.
Honestly though, most of my reason for not wanting cheap respecs is it's just one thing that makes what should be competitive play into a casualfest, something that's made mostly all the recent mmos that's come out (that I've tried) not as rewarding as the older mmos I've stuck with. Games are, for the most part, getting too easy. Part of that (albeit a small part) is due to not needing to plan anything.
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On the topic of theorycrafting, not having the free respecs in a game makes me theorycraft more so then if we did have them. People who plan for hypothetical situations and create a build accordingly in advance should be given an advantage over those who casual it.
In other news 4.42% downloaded lol /emo
But, at the same time, napkin math on respec says it's pretty dealable to get with AD. I've been doing some AH-ing and invoking, and not a ton else, and I'm up over 30k ADs. That's enough for a respec right there. It's not an ideal situation, but it's made me worry a bit less about it.
Anyhow, big thing in case you don't know: Foundry lets you make up to level 31 characters to test things. Mind you, the characters are buggy and have awful stats so it's not great, but it's a solid way to test many powers and check the math on many feats. I was quite happy to see that several of the 1% more healing / damage from Wisdom / Intelligence type feats just add 1% per point, and shouldn't mention Int or Wis at all to avoid confusion. I was glad to find out in advance (though sad at the horribleness) that the 1% of your Power adds to your Recovery type feats are garbage, cause yeah if you have 100 Power it adds 1 to your Recovery which in turn gives you (nothing useful). Percents of percents.
I completely understand and agree with you re: it works tabletop. However, the D&D tabletop business model is not the same as a video game's.
Are your friends willing to pay $40-$60 for every new character they wish to play? Are they restricted to only ever creating a couple characters? Do your table-top friends participate in pvp battles with numerous other players?
See my previous, verbose post as to why this particular position (of yours) is not sustainable in a modern mmo.
The respec token costs $6 or 600 Zen. 30k AD, at current exchange rates (480:1), equals 62.5 cents/Zen, or 10% of a respec token. (Feats can be respecced for just AD, but power points need a token.)
I want to do as little theorycrafting as possible and would rather play to figure it out. Like all things in life, experience comes by doing, not by reading. And I have neither the time nor interest (for reasons explained in my rather verbose post above) to do any serious number crunching. Not everyone has the luxury of time nor the interest to be out of game and roll spreadsheets of data to make a decision on which feat or skill to take next.
I'm not sure which is worse...those insisting that everyone does have the time or those suggesting that people ought to have the interest. I do know that those who do both...are, are using the least amount of reason possible however. And that is never a good thing.
Soooo, someone who just does a google search should have the same build as someone who took 2-3 hours to plan it out to make sure they were building optimally? ...