Again, this is bad reasoning because it is a false analogy.
I completely understand and agree with you re: it works tabletop. However, the D&D tabletop business model is not the same as a video game's.
Are your friends willing to pay $40-$60 for every new character they wish to play? Are they restricted to only ever creating a couple characters? Do your table-top friends participate in pvp battles with numerous other players?
See my previous, verbose post as to why this particular position (of yours) is not sustainable in a modern mmo.
Please read the rest of what I've written.
As it's a free game can't people make just about as many characters as they want for free? It's only costs x amount to respec, not create new characters of the same class so they can explore all potential aspects of a class (for the record I'm fine with people making new characters).
No, my tabletop players obviously don't participate in large scale pvp, if it were possible however, they would be welcome to roll new characters for it, just like in this game.
Can you be more specific as to what of yours you would like me to read?
---
"I want to do as little theorycrafting as possible"
Shouldn't those who put the most effort into creating the best character possible have the best character possible?
I suppose it's just a difference of opinion, I don't like how easy games (especially mmos) are becoming, some people like having their hand held, but I'd rather put effort into crafting the best character I can, and having a above average character as a result.
As it's a free game can't people make just about as many characters as they want for free? It's only costs x amount to respec, not create new characters of the same class so they can explore all potential aspects of a class (for the record I'm fine with people making new characters).
No, my tabletop players obviously don't participate in large scale pvp, if it were possible however, they would be welcome to roll new characters for it, just like in this game.
Can you be more specific as to what of yours you would like me to read?
---
"I want to do as little theorycrafting as possible"
Shouldn't those who put the most effort into creating the best character possible have the best character possible?
I suppose it's just a difference of opinion, I don't like how easy games (especially mmos) are becoming, some people like having their hand held, but I'd rather put effort into crafting the best character I can, and having a above average character as a result.
+2
/10char
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mumlei3umleMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
There's plenty of people requesting common respecs...
But Respecs kill the Spirit of D&D.
Respecs are here because it is an MMO but hard-behind Dungeon Masters like myself don't even allow respecs and never would.
So it's the clash of two worlds with the compromise of adding them and not making them a common event.
No no.. nooooo nonono..
You people need to start making up your mind.. Either this game is what you proclaimed in the promo
And I too think that respeccing or dual spec should be avaible, unless the game is done in a way that speccing in a certain thing doesn't gimp you totally in other aspects of the game (pve/pvp build being too much different and so on).
Soooo, someone who just does a google search should have the same build as someone who took 2-3 hours to plan it out to make sure they were building optimally? ...
No, that's a non sequitur as well as being entirely irrelevant*.
Please read carefully what you are quoting:
Apok: I want to do as little theorycrafting as possible and would rather play to figure it out.
* It is irrelevant because regardless of which system is used (one that allows for convenient respeccing or one that does not), people will always post builds and people will always use Google to search and copy those builds.
The issue is not "prevention of others from using X build" (which is what your argument just attempted to address). The issue is the means by which one has to test the waters and/or change builds due to the current need (pve vs pvp for example).
"I want to do as little theorycrafting as possible"
Shouldn't those who put the most effort into creating the best character possible have the best character possible?
Absolutely. I take no issues with reaping the benefits of one's own work. No one ought to be required to share their builds or strategies. But as explained in my previous post, that's a non sequitur as an objection.
The issue is not "Should people who display the most effort be rewarded the most?" No one said anything about forcing others to share their builds...nor did anyone say anything about even sharing their builds freely! It isn't about copying builds...it's about making respeccing more accessible. There are many of us who simply do not wish to number crunch. I'd rather figure it out by PLAYING than using a spreadsheet - which is what many players do...and more power to them...I remember when I was interested in number crunching and maximizing every last detail by organizing and calculating stats via spreadsheet or similar means. It can be a lot of fun! But this is entirely irrelevant to the point of it being better to allow players to respec (for the many reasons already offered) both from a broader demographic and business model perspective.
Perhaps you are thinking that by making it more difficult to respec, then it would cut down on the number of better builds out in the game world? Or it would cut down on the number of copied builds? Perhaps, perhaps not. But that is entirely irrelevant to my objection (which was in response to the moderator's first post in this thread).
There's plenty of people requesting common respecs...
But Respecs kill the Spirit of D&D.
Respecs are here because it is an MMO but hard-behind Dungeon Masters like myself don't even allow respecs and never would.
So it's the clash of two worlds with the compromise of adding them and not making them a common event.
That argument is a bit moot because this is not really D&D. There are no checks, no saves, no anything that even remotely resembles D&D. It's a fun action MMOG in a D&D setting. D&D it aint.
I'd accept the compromise of keeping things the way they are, just allow us to dual-spec. Heck they can even charge money for the dual-spec feature and I'd buy it along with all subsequent respecs for both specs. The way things are now, you only get one build and there really isn't any room for error. With the game being so new, and not enough info out there on what builds are viable, it's a really harsh to only have 1 spec to experiment with.
There are many other ways to gouge us for our money. This one WILL drive people away. I want to PvE and PvP. I shouldn't have to spend more than $1 just to enjoy both on the same day/week. It's like if you build your character towards PvE, you feel like your forced to stick with it. Otherwise, if you want to PvP for say a day or so, you'd have to respec twice. It's a brutal thing, IMO.
With the game being so new, and not enough info out there on what builds are viable, it's a really harsh to only have 1 spec to experiment with.
I want to PvE and PvP. I shouldn't have to spend more than $1 just to enjoy both on the same day/week. It's like if you build your character towards PvE, you feel like your forced to stick with it. Otherwise, if you want to PvP for say a day or so, you'd have to respec twice. It's a brutal thing, IMO.
Absolutely. I take no issues with reaping the benefits of one's own work. No one ought to be required to share their builds or strategies. But as explained in my previous post, that's a non sequitur as an objection.
The issue is not "Should people who display the most effort be rewarded the most?" No one said anything about forcing others to share their builds...nor did anyone say anything about even sharing their builds freely! It isn't about copying builds...it's about making respeccing more accessible. There are many of us who simply do not wish to number crunch. I'd rather figure it out by PLAYING than using a spreadsheet - which is what many players do...and more power to them...I remember when I was interested in number crunching and maximizing every last detail by organizing and calculating stats via spreadsheet or similar means. It can be a lot of fun! But this is entirely irrelevant to the point of it being better to allow players to respec (for the many reasons already offered) both from a broader demographic and business model perspective.
Perhaps you are thinking that by making it more difficult to respec, then it would cut down on the number of better builds out in the game world? Or it would cut down on the number of copied builds? Perhaps, perhaps not. But that is entirely irrelevant to my objection (which was in response to the moderator's first post in this thread).
So essentially you want the game made easier because you don't want to do a particular part of it? If that's the case then I don't much feel like leveling or gearing, so I should be given all the gear in the world and as much xp as I'd like.
When it comes down to it, you want easier respeccing, so you can avoid a part of play you don't want to do. Takes me back to my original idea, I don't want hand holding in mmos as it devalues the achievements of others.
So essentially you want the game made easier because you don't want to do a particular part of it? If that's the case then I don't much feel like leveling or gearing, so I should be given all the gear in the world and as much xp as I'd like.
When it comes down to it, you want easier respeccing, so you can avoid a part of play you don't want to do. Takes me back to my original idea, I don't want hand holding in mmos as it devalues the achievements of others.
So essentially you want the game made easier because you don't want to do a particular part of it?
No. Please read carefully before responding to someone's post.
When it comes down to it, you want easier respeccing, so you can avoid a part of play you don't want to do.
Not at all. What is with so many gamers these days failing at elementary reading comprehension??
Again, I'll quote myself to keep it as simple as I can possibly make it. As explained in post #97:
Apok: No, that's a non sequitur as well as being entirely irrelevant*.
I want to do as little theorycrafting as possible and would rather play to figure it out.
In other words, playing the game, learning from one's mistakes, going through the trouble to test feats, skills, builds in game, etc... is superior than number crunching. Always has been, always will be. And actually gaining this experience through actual play and experimentation in game is not skipping a certain "part" of the game (that's just absurd). In addition, working on a spreadsheet is NOT a part of gameplay, it's a specific tool used in theorycrafting. As explained numerous times already, I, along with most others, prefer to actually play the game and figure things out as we go along instead of working on numbers all day. Your insistence that everyone should focus on number crunching and that this is a vital part of gameplay (which is your position considering my entire position is based on the idea of playing/experience and not planning via paper from level 1 and you are objecting to this) is not only nonsensical, but it is impractical (unless of course, the key demographic is that of a teen out of school with little responsibility and thus, who has both the time and inclination to spend that much time out of game during their leisure time to plan everything out from level 1 in hopes that he gets it right in the end).
Takes me back to my original idea, I don't want hand holding in mmos as it devalues the achievements of others.
Also from that same post:
Apok: No, that's a non sequitur as well as being entirely irrelevant*.
It is irrelevant because regardless of which system is used (one that allows for convenient respeccing or one that does not), people will always post builds and people will always use Google to search and copy those builds.
The issue is not "prevention of others from using X build" (which is what your argument just attempted to address). The issue is the means by which one has to test the waters and/or change builds due to the current need (pve vs pvp for example).
In other words...
1) Making respeccing more difficult will not "protect" builds (thus ensuring a "most effort" system to be rewarded)
and
2) Even if #2 is debatable (which I don't think it is because there is absolutely no reason to believe that it prevents people from posting and copying builds), it's entirely irrelevant!
You can continue to ignore the actual reasons (such as pve vs pvp, experience of how skills/buffs/feats, etc... work in game > reading about it on "paper," etc...) all day long...but it won't magically make your argument sound. Next time, try applying a bit of reason into the post, else it's just a strawman rant that convinces no one except those who prefer emotional appeals over rational thought.
So essentially you want the game made easier because you don't want to do a particular part of it? If that's the case then I don't much feel like leveling or gearing, so I should be given all the gear in the world and as much xp as I'd like.
When it comes down to it, you want easier respeccing, so you can avoid a part of play you don't want to do. Takes me back to my original idea, I don't want hand holding in mmos as it devalues the achievements of others.
Go for it. Theorycraft your build before you begin leveling. Create your optimal character.
There are no resources available for this game as of yet. Find out on your own, with your first character, how viable 5% of your power added to recovery is. Find out what your endgame stat totals will be with good gear. Choose from level 5 whether you will be optimal in PvP or PvE, and stick with that for the entire game.
You can not, and you will not do that. You are not smart enough. No one is. This game is brand new and there are 0 resources available to properly theorycraft. You are not as good as you think you are. The only way anyone in this game has come close to the 'early' optimized build is by trial and error and spending money to respec. I don't care how hardcore you are, your attitude is not the type of hardcore that leads to results and optimizations. A thriving theorycrafting community like the one at elitistjerks will absolutely never happen in Neverwinter if things don't change.
Go for it. Theorycraft your build before you begin leveling. Create your optimal character.
There are no resources available for this game as of yet. Find out on your own, with your first character, how viable 5% of your power added to recovery is. Find out what your endgame stat totals will be with good gear. Choose from level 5 whether you will be optimal in PvP or PvE, and stick with that for the entire game.
Exactly.
However, it is amazing to me, even though I'm sure they are the radical minority, that people still disagree with that. It not only flies in the face of common sense (disagreeing with it I mean), there is also no justification for holding that with a game so new and having limited to no resources (especially when it has been explained that the current tool-tips are insufficient or misleading), one can adequately number crunch and the play result will be spot on. It's absurd. Even with resources there is still little to no justification because play style differs between players using the same class and it continues to ignore the fact that there is a clear distinction to be made between pve and pvp.
the vast majority of those complaining here have spent not a single penny
dont find this strange at all, the respec system makes sense, you can easily get enough for free, or if you need to respec 5 times a day, you can spend a small amount of money
SHOCK HORROR
A thriving theorycrafting community like the one at elitistjerks will absolutely never happen in Neverwinter if things don't change.
the vast majority of those complaining here have spent not a single penny
How do you know? Don't you really just mean to say "I'd guess that most people complaining here haven't spent any money on the game" ?
And even so...how is that relevant? Evaluations are contingent upon experience with what is being evaluated...not with how much money someone has spent.
And not that it matters, but as explained by a couple players already (including myself), I'm on the fence about buying a founders package because I'm concerned about how restrictive the respec design is. Had it not been for that, the game would have at a minimum, $60 from me already as I'm a sucker for good deals. That it is so restrictive, may actually have the opposite effect (again, for reasons already explained in previous posts). I don't know yet, but it certainly hasn't helped (at least not in my decision to become a founder or not).
dont find this strange at all, the respec system makes sense, you can easily get enough for free, or if you need to respec 5 times a day, you can spend a small amount of money
What is a 'small amount of money'?
It costs $6 for each complete respec. Are you suggesting that $30 / day (5 x $6) is a small amount of money to spend on a video game to engage in a feature that is present in competing mmo's by way of reasonable in-game cost?
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aldemmMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 23Arc User
edited May 2013
It costs less to change your character's name than it does respeccing. Cosmetic in form of text vs. something that actually affects your gameplay.
How anyone can defend this is beyond me.
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judgebankslolMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 13Arc User
There's plenty of people requesting common respecs...
But Respecs kill the Spirit of D&D.
Respecs are here because it is an MMO but hard-behind Dungeon Masters like myself don't even allow respecs and never would.
So it's the clash of two worlds with the compromise of adding them and not making them a common event.
I would agree with this if we were actually able to have even 1/2 of the customization for characters as pen and paper has.
Instead, we get prefixes on our class names that dictate what type of character it is, along with bogus dice rolls and stat allocations. So as far as I'm concerned, having to pay for re-specs will be one of the negative points I will constantly bring up whenever I speak of this game to anybody, and that fact alone has turned away 2 of my friends.
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divinehopeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 48
There's plenty of people requesting common respecs...
But Respecs kill the Spirit of D&D.
Respecs are here because it is an MMO but hard-behind Dungeon Masters like myself don't even allow respecs and never would.
So it's the clash of two worlds with the compromise of adding them and not making them a common event.
That is fine and all, but if "D&D Doesn't Value Respecs" (it sure as hell values real money though) than don't have them at all. You pretty much just contradicted yourself.
The 'spirit of D&D' isn't killed by respeccing, unless the 'spirit of D&D' has been ruined by countless actual Dungeon Masters who let their players retrain so their players can have, you know, fun.
The true spirit of D&D is to play a fun game with your friends. No more, no less.
That means a lot of different things to a lot of different people - your ideal D&D isn't mine, and neither is 'right'.
You know D&D Sir, hats off to this comment.
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judgebankslolMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited May 2013
Clearly the devs made a game to make money, GAMES ARE NOT FUN, THEY'RE BUSINESS!
Also Fireyinvective for Great Leader!
*Edit* What is even weirder, is I just finished reading "This genre in no longer FROM gamers to gamers, it's from investors to investors." as I was typing this.
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fredalbobMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Although I do like the idea of respeccing, I do agree with Cryptic and it's choice to make respeccing a difficult choice.
You should think and plan how you are investing your talents. Not rip off six different builds until you find one you like.
With that being said, I think Cryptic should allow respeccing without a token, but it should be on a very long timer and should require in-game currency.
(i.e. You can respec once every month for X amount of Astral Diamonds. Otherwise you must purchase a respec token from the Zen store)
Soooo, someone who just does a google search should have the same build as someone who took 2-3 hours to plan it out to make sure they were building optimally? ...
With expensive respecs you will see plenty of the one true google build and little else.
Comments
Please read the rest of what I've written.
As it's a free game can't people make just about as many characters as they want for free? It's only costs x amount to respec, not create new characters of the same class so they can explore all potential aspects of a class (for the record I'm fine with people making new characters).
No, my tabletop players obviously don't participate in large scale pvp, if it were possible however, they would be welcome to roll new characters for it, just like in this game.
Can you be more specific as to what of yours you would like me to read?
---
"I want to do as little theorycrafting as possible"
Shouldn't those who put the most effort into creating the best character possible have the best character possible?
I suppose it's just a difference of opinion, I don't like how easy games (especially mmos) are becoming, some people like having their hand held, but I'd rather put effort into crafting the best character I can, and having a above average character as a result.
+2
/10char
No no.. nooooo nonono..
You people need to start making up your mind.. Either this game is what you proclaimed in the promo
DC Universe Online is one >_>
And I too think that respeccing or dual spec should be avaible, unless the game is done in a way that speccing in a certain thing doesn't gimp you totally in other aspects of the game (pve/pvp build being too much different and so on).
Please read carefully what you are quoting:
Apok: I want to do as little theorycrafting as possible and would rather play to figure it out.
* It is irrelevant because regardless of which system is used (one that allows for convenient respeccing or one that does not), people will always post builds and people will always use Google to search and copy those builds.
The issue is not "prevention of others from using X build" (which is what your argument just attempted to address). The issue is the means by which one has to test the waters and/or change builds due to the current need (pve vs pvp for example).
The issue is not "Should people who display the most effort be rewarded the most?" No one said anything about forcing others to share their builds...nor did anyone say anything about even sharing their builds freely! It isn't about copying builds...it's about making respeccing more accessible. There are many of us who simply do not wish to number crunch. I'd rather figure it out by PLAYING than using a spreadsheet - which is what many players do...and more power to them...I remember when I was interested in number crunching and maximizing every last detail by organizing and calculating stats via spreadsheet or similar means. It can be a lot of fun! But this is entirely irrelevant to the point of it being better to allow players to respec (for the many reasons already offered) both from a broader demographic and business model perspective.
Perhaps you are thinking that by making it more difficult to respec, then it would cut down on the number of better builds out in the game world? Or it would cut down on the number of copied builds? Perhaps, perhaps not. But that is entirely irrelevant to my objection (which was in response to the moderator's first post in this thread).
That argument is a bit moot because this is not really D&D. There are no checks, no saves, no anything that even remotely resembles D&D. It's a fun action MMOG in a D&D setting. D&D it aint.
LOTRO
DCUO
Aion
Hell even Allods does it, and they are pretty money grabbing as well. Not as bad as Cryptic though.
There are many other ways to gouge us for our money. This one WILL drive people away. I want to PvE and PvP. I shouldn't have to spend more than $1 just to enjoy both on the same day/week. It's like if you build your character towards PvE, you feel like your forced to stick with it. Otherwise, if you want to PvP for say a day or so, you'd have to respec twice. It's a brutal thing, IMO.
So essentially you want the game made easier because you don't want to do a particular part of it? If that's the case then I don't much feel like leveling or gearing, so I should be given all the gear in the world and as much xp as I'd like.
When it comes down to it, you want easier respeccing, so you can avoid a part of play you don't want to do. Takes me back to my original idea, I don't want hand holding in mmos as it devalues the achievements of others.
pwnd.
/10char
Not at all. What is with so many gamers these days failing at elementary reading comprehension??
Again, I'll quote myself to keep it as simple as I can possibly make it. As explained in post #97:
I want to do as little theorycrafting as possible and would rather play to figure it out.
In other words, playing the game, learning from one's mistakes, going through the trouble to test feats, skills, builds in game, etc... is superior than number crunching. Always has been, always will be. And actually gaining this experience through actual play and experimentation in game is not skipping a certain "part" of the game (that's just absurd). In addition, working on a spreadsheet is NOT a part of gameplay, it's a specific tool used in theorycrafting. As explained numerous times already, I, along with most others, prefer to actually play the game and figure things out as we go along instead of working on numbers all day. Your insistence that everyone should focus on number crunching and that this is a vital part of gameplay (which is your position considering my entire position is based on the idea of playing/experience and not planning via paper from level 1 and you are objecting to this) is not only nonsensical, but it is impractical (unless of course, the key demographic is that of a teen out of school with little responsibility and thus, who has both the time and inclination to spend that much time out of game during their leisure time to plan everything out from level 1 in hopes that he gets it right in the end).
Also from that same post:
Apok: No, that's a non sequitur as well as being entirely irrelevant*.
It is irrelevant because regardless of which system is used (one that allows for convenient respeccing or one that does not), people will always post builds and people will always use Google to search and copy those builds.
The issue is not "prevention of others from using X build" (which is what your argument just attempted to address). The issue is the means by which one has to test the waters and/or change builds due to the current need (pve vs pvp for example).
In other words...
1) Making respeccing more difficult will not "protect" builds (thus ensuring a "most effort" system to be rewarded)
and
2) Even if #2 is debatable (which I don't think it is because there is absolutely no reason to believe that it prevents people from posting and copying builds), it's entirely irrelevant!
You can continue to ignore the actual reasons (such as pve vs pvp, experience of how skills/buffs/feats, etc... work in game > reading about it on "paper," etc...) all day long...but it won't magically make your argument sound. Next time, try applying a bit of reason into the post, else it's just a strawman rant that convinces no one except those who prefer emotional appeals over rational thought.
Go for it. Theorycraft your build before you begin leveling. Create your optimal character.
There are no resources available for this game as of yet. Find out on your own, with your first character, how viable 5% of your power added to recovery is. Find out what your endgame stat totals will be with good gear. Choose from level 5 whether you will be optimal in PvP or PvE, and stick with that for the entire game.
You can not, and you will not do that. You are not smart enough. No one is. This game is brand new and there are 0 resources available to properly theorycraft. You are not as good as you think you are. The only way anyone in this game has come close to the 'early' optimized build is by trial and error and spending money to respec. I don't care how hardcore you are, your attitude is not the type of hardcore that leads to results and optimizations. A thriving theorycrafting community like the one at elitistjerks will absolutely never happen in Neverwinter if things don't change.
However, it is amazing to me, even though I'm sure they are the radical minority, that people still disagree with that. It not only flies in the face of common sense (disagreeing with it I mean), there is also no justification for holding that with a game so new and having limited to no resources (especially when it has been explained that the current tool-tips are insufficient or misleading), one can adequately number crunch and the play result will be spot on. It's absurd. Even with resources there is still little to no justification because play style differs between players using the same class and it continues to ignore the fact that there is a clear distinction to be made between pve and pvp.
the vast majority of those complaining here have spent not a single penny
dont find this strange at all, the respec system makes sense, you can easily get enough for free, or if you need to respec 5 times a day, you can spend a small amount of money
SHOCK HORROR
You say that like its a bad thing
And even so...how is that relevant? Evaluations are contingent upon experience with what is being evaluated...not with how much money someone has spent.
And not that it matters, but as explained by a couple players already (including myself), I'm on the fence about buying a founders package because I'm concerned about how restrictive the respec design is. Had it not been for that, the game would have at a minimum, $60 from me already as I'm a sucker for good deals. That it is so restrictive, may actually have the opposite effect (again, for reasons already explained in previous posts). I don't know yet, but it certainly hasn't helped (at least not in my decision to become a founder or not).
What is a 'small amount of money'?
It costs $6 for each complete respec. Are you suggesting that $30 / day (5 x $6) is a small amount of money to spend on a video game to engage in a feature that is present in competing mmo's by way of reasonable in-game cost?
How anyone can defend this is beyond me.
Get a load of this fanboy, face it this is best character specialization you're ever going to get.
I would agree with this if we were actually able to have even 1/2 of the customization for characters as pen and paper has.
Instead, we get prefixes on our class names that dictate what type of character it is, along with bogus dice rolls and stat allocations. So as far as I'm concerned, having to pay for re-specs will be one of the negative points I will constantly bring up whenever I speak of this game to anybody, and that fact alone has turned away 2 of my friends.
That is fine and all, but if "D&D Doesn't Value Respecs" (it sure as hell values real money though) than don't have them at all. You pretty much just contradicted yourself.
You know D&D Sir, hats off to this comment.
Also Fireyinvective for Great Leader!
*Edit* What is even weirder, is I just finished reading "This genre in no longer FROM gamers to gamers, it's from investors to investors." as I was typing this.
You should think and plan how you are investing your talents. Not rip off six different builds until you find one you like.
With that being said, I think Cryptic should allow respeccing without a token, but it should be on a very long timer and should require in-game currency.
(i.e. You can respec once every month for X amount of Astral Diamonds. Otherwise you must purchase a respec token from the Zen store)
Ah yes.. SWTOR.. remind me again how much multiple respecs cost? And what's the Credit Limit for F2p players?
That would be nice.