What ticks me off is if a boss is immune to CC spells like Entangling Force wont even do dmg to the boss since hes immune to the CC... its like taking away a whole power on a boss fight..
0
erebus2075Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
people are HAMSTER...
seriously, removing a FULL aspect of a class completely which is a core part of the class for it to work in the most importent and "epic" of all fights is directly stupid.
this is equel to removing the ability for clerics to heal, GWF to go into close combat, trickstars to dps, etc etc.... it is simply just a straight out insanely bad choose from the devs side and its made due to the inability to use their brain and come up with a good althernative to allowing perma cc on bosses and as many have mentioned there is a million acceptable althernatives they could have used...
its simply lazy and stupid and its not an acceptable way to go about it.
seriously, removing a FULL aspect of a class completely which is a core part of the class for it to work in the most importent and "epic" of all fights is directly stupid.
this is equel to removing the ability for clerics to heal, GWF to go into close combat, trickstars to dps, etc etc.... it is simply just a straight out insanely bad choose from the devs side and its made due to the inability to use their brain and come up with a good althernative to allowing perma cc on bosses and as many have mentioned there is a million acceptable althernatives they could have used...
its simply lazy and stupid and its not an acceptable way to go about it.
In 4E tabletop, on which this is based, they got rid of immunities, but bosses were given many more frequent chances to make saves against control effects. That way the Controllers (an entire role encompassing many classes in D&D4e) weren't cheated at every boss encounter, but they weren't god mode for it either. Cryptic should implement something like that, a limited effect, but not total immunity.
corellcMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited April 2013
Well speaking from what I have solo'd up to lvl 40, I've found that some story bosses cant be CC'd at all, so I just hit them with magic missile build up arcane mastery then hit them with ray of enfeeblement that hits pretty hard at max stacks I have found. I also swap out entangling force with sudden storm.
Just hit and run take out adds when I can and kite the sucker around, helps if there are traps around to lead them onto having them hit for 2k-3k helps takes them down. I do admit a few times I have been running around lick a headless chicken but it seems to be working for me.
I miss the ability from CoH where you could stack control effects on a boss which would otherwise be highly resistant to it, and if enough stacks were on the boss it would break through their resistance, for however long those stacks remained, which was usually 1-2 seconds.. but other than that it would be nice if control effects did a little extra damage to enemies that cannot be controlled so I have a reason to have a rotation that consists of more than 1 button.
corellcMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
Correct me if I am wrong on this, though I have not noticed when the bosses were resistant to the CC effects that there was no pop up saying "Resists" or "Immune" while fighting.
Would be nice to see something like that pop up rather than finding it out on the run so to speak. Also having a secondary power set could help, not something you can change mid fight but if you know that the boss is resistant you can swap out to a pure dammage set. Rather than having to waste time swapping various powers around, would be useful in dungeons rather than holding people up you can hit a key and swap things out.
I did verify that Enfeeblement does work on those bosses immune. But I don't see any bonus damage from any control powers at all. Let alone debuffs aside from Ray of Enfeeblement.
This is disappointing as only one power is useful for getting an edge over a boss... while debuffing with a Controller is fine with me, I would like to see it more from other powers and synergy going on as well.
Seriously? You expected BOSSES to be CCed? You live under a rock?
No. We expected some kind of replacement effect such as slightly increased damage against foes immune to CC, or the ability to at least interrupt bosses abilities.
I don't think they need to change anything. I play my CW fine against bosses that are immune to any CC. you still get the dmg from the abilities as well any debuffs, so the only thing you really lose is the stun. If you are complaining because you solo a lot, use your dodges and DOTS as well use traps to take them down.
There are some bosses in the game where control effect will not work on them. At all.
Jareth was unable to be CC'd (crowd controlled) with 3 control wizards using the same TAB power...
We were going to use 5 control wizards and see what happens, but we were already told he is immune.
I ask that you guys reconsider. No knockbacks, quick holds, interrupts anything makes the control wizard kind of pointless during these fights.
Sure you have little adds, but they are peons , and hardly live long enough for the single target holds to really be effective.
A suggestion... Allow the control effects to work on these guys, even if it is only for a second. And knockback that only go a few feet. This will at least allow the control wizard to be more useful than well... a tower doing nothing but spamming default attacks : /
Thanks for at least reading
You pathetic gamers should be banned from this game permanently. Seriously, you can't learn to play a game or get some skill, you gotta have the developers water down another game cause your a bunch of losers. You people make me sick!
You pathetic gamers should be banned from this game permanently. Seriously, you can't learn to play a game or get some skill, you gotta have the developers water down another game cause your a bunch of losers. You people make me sick!
Would you mind not holding back on your trollish attack?
This is a huge overlook by the devs. It's very simple, keep bosses immune to CC, but the debuffs should still be applied, simple as that.
Now you don't lose dmg bonuses, or lose dmg all together on things that are dot/cc combined.
0
kwsapphireMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 671Arc User
edited May 2013
Let me clarify my stance by saying that I'm not mad at the current system. I understand some bosses are going to be immune or highly resistant to CC. This doesn't diminish the fun I have playing my CW, and if anyone wants to skip over inviting my CW to a team because of lack of boss-CC, fine, I won't play with that team. No big deal. However, I see where people are coming from on this issue, and I do think it's worth another look by the devs.
seriously, removing a FULL aspect of a class completely which is a core part of the class for it to work in the most importent and "epic" of all fights is directly stupid.
this is equel to removing the ability for clerics to heal, GWF to go into close combat, trickstars to dps, etc etc.... it is simply just a straight out insanely bad choose from the devs side and its made due to the inability to use their brain and come up with a good althernative to allowing perma cc on bosses and as many have mentioned there is a million acceptable althernatives they could have used...
its simply lazy and stupid and its not an acceptable way to go about it.
While I agree that there are better options than the current mechanic, I don't think calling the developers stupid is going to affect any change. I'm sure they had their reasons for implementing it this way, and I'm sure they're willing to listen to reasonable discussion on the topic. And calling people "HAMSTER [...] lazy and stupid" in a post with no fewer than 26 spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors is deliciously ironic.
Well some of us don't and are ok with how it's designed. Those of us that focus on arcane mastery over chill, at any rate :P
Streethawke, who started this thread, is focused on Arcane Mastery. I'm personally going with both arcane and ice powers, making up for lack of chill stacks with feats that let my cold powers borrow my arcane stacks. But Entangling Force is Arcane, not chill, and Entangling Force doesn't work on most of the bosses. So it's certainly not just a question of "Arcane powers work on bosses and Cold powers don't."
I don't think they need to change anything. I play my CW fine against bosses that are immune to any CC. you still get the dmg from the abilities as well any debuffs, so the only thing you really lose is the stun. If you are complaining because you solo a lot, use your dodges and DOTS as well use traps to take them down.
I think one of the major points of contention is that CWs usually get bonus damage for a target that is mezzed, and because we can't mez certain targets, we're losing a quarter of our damage against those targets. (I'm not sure, because I didn't actually know we get bonus damage vs. mezzed targets.) And it certainly doesn't make soloing impossible - what we're talking about here is a reduction in effectiveness that makes CWs less useful for boss fights. Why bring a wizard to a boss fight when you can bring a class that doesn't lose their effectiveness against said boss? I know, to deal with adds, but rogues can do that too. CWs aren't supposed to be straight up DPS, CWs are supposed to bring other things to the table.
You pathetic gamers should be banned from this game permanently. Seriously, you can't learn to play a game or get some skill, you gotta have the developers water down another game cause your a bunch of losers. You people make me sick!
Oops, it appears you've made a couple of errors, let me fix that for you!
You pathetic trolls should be banned from this forum permanently. Seriously, you can't learn to read peoples' posts or understand the discussion, you gotta tear people down because you don't know how to discuss ideas that don't jive with your worldview. You people deserve all the pity I can give!
Streethawke, who started this thread, is focused on Arcane Mastery. I'm personally going with both arcane and ice powers, making up for lack of chill stacks with feats that let my cold powers borrow my arcane stacks. But Entangling Force is Arcane, not chill, and Entangling Force doesn't work on most of the bosses. So it's certainly not just a question of "Arcane powers work on bosses and Cold powers don't."
My impression was the LEGITIMATE complaint was on losing DAMAGE done to bosses because of chill not applying. Not that your actual control powers don't work on the bosses. Expecting you to be able to lock down a boss the same way you can lock down a lieutenant is lunacy. If that was the point of this thread, well I completely disagree.
Compare cc not landing on bosses to EverQuest, where, anything in dungeons could be mesmerized, slowed, debuffed, rooted. I am disappointed at how the Control Wizard is implemented.
0
kwsapphireMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 671Arc User
My impression was the LEGITIMATE complaint was on losing DAMAGE done to bosses because of chill not applying. Not that your actual control powers don't work on the bosses. Expecting you to be able to lock down a boss the same way you can lock down a lieutenant is lunacy. If that was the point of this thread, well I completely disagree.
No I think you're right, the point is to not punish CWs with a reduction in damage just because a boss can't be mezzed. I think the topic may have wandered around a bit as people have different opinions on the subject, but I'm pretty sure Hawke wasn't suggesting that we be able to chain-hold every boss in the game.
Hmmm, I think not everyone is fully reading the OP. I can understand skipping over a few pages (there are 9 afterall). I threw out other alternatives as can be seen here :
There are some bosses in the game where control effect will not work on them. At all.
Jareth was unable to be CC'd (crowd controlled) with 3 control wizards using the same TAB power...
We were going to use 5 control wizards and see what happens, but we were already told he is immune.
I ask that you guys reconsider. No knockbacks, quick holds, interrupts anything makes the control wizard kind of pointless during these fights.
Sure you have little adds, but they are peons , and hardly live long enough for the single target holds to really be effective.
A suggestion... Allow the control effects to work on these guys, even if it is only for a second. And knockback that only go a few feet. This will at least allow the control wizard to be more useful than well... a tower doing nothing but spamming default attacks : /
Thanks for at least reading
And yes control wizards do need something as their Control needs to be polymorphed in these certain boss fights (to include mimics).
There is a feat or ability (forget which) that allows more damage to be done to a CC'd enemy, much like the Controller in CoH.
FACT: Every boss fight has adds. These adds must be killed, or you won't survive.
SOLUTION: DPS adds and boss when you are able to.
Why is this hard to understand? This is NOT a "sit on the boss, hurp durp DPS" game. Seriously, who the **** cares?
Fact: Coming off short and making people feel bad.
Solution: Be less hostile and see it from the viewpoint of others.
Every boss fight having adds are either too easy, or too difficult for a control wizard to handle.
Indra, boss that is around level 38-40, her fight involves at any given time 2-8 (sometimes more) respawning mini boss adds with extreme health and damage resist and does around 1500-3000 damage a hit. I dont care who you are, but no single Control Wizard can do all that work himself. Since our controls are single target and last around 3 seconds or so.
The TR has some crowd control, as does the Guardian and the Cleric. (sometimes better in certain cases). But the Control Wizard at that point has two functions, single target controls (the ice patch if you are ice oriented) and AoE attacks, albeit limited.
So yes... I do believe that the debuffs need to still happen at the very least.. but moreso the control effects could still be used on those bosses.. instead of it lasting 3 seconds, it goes 1 second, to help interrupt or slow down that big power attack.
If folks do not agree, that is fine, but to demonize those who wish for their class (all of their class) to be represented, just is not right. Please respect others in how you convey your thoughts.
You care enough to post vitriol, which has so far has increased the post count by 3. Unfortunately it hasn't contributed much to the discussion at hand.
If I understand your stance correctly, you feel that a Control Wizard's role within a group should be to damage adds and bosses. Others in this thread feel that the rogue class is better suited to DPS, and a wizard's role is more about control than DPS. The fact that control is ineffective in some cases is a point of concern, which is why we're having a discussion about possible alternative solutions.
For example, in some boss fights there are boss-level mobs in the add spawns. In some cases, there are 2 or 3 bosses in the add spawn. As a single control wizard on a team, I can engage one of those bosses and perhaps even take it down solo (taking minutes to do so) - but at that point I'm not doing anything about the main boss, or the other 1-2 bosses it spawned. So the rest of the team has to deal with that. I know there's a happy medium somewhere. Maybe the boss add spawns are just too hard, or maybe you need to fight certain bosses when everyone has outleveled the dungeon. I'm not asking for content to be push-over easy, but I also don't want to feel useless in given situations either.
Again, I'm not mad at the current mechanic, but I understand some people are unsatisfied. The forums are here to foster discussion, so that's what we're doing. If you don't care, please feel free to surf to another thread in the forum.
Comments
seriously, removing a FULL aspect of a class completely which is a core part of the class for it to work in the most importent and "epic" of all fights is directly stupid.
this is equel to removing the ability for clerics to heal, GWF to go into close combat, trickstars to dps, etc etc.... it is simply just a straight out insanely bad choose from the devs side and its made due to the inability to use their brain and come up with a good althernative to allowing perma cc on bosses and as many have mentioned there is a million acceptable althernatives they could have used...
its simply lazy and stupid and its not an acceptable way to go about it.
In 4E tabletop, on which this is based, they got rid of immunities, but bosses were given many more frequent chances to make saves against control effects. That way the Controllers (an entire role encompassing many classes in D&D4e) weren't cheated at every boss encounter, but they weren't god mode for it either. Cryptic should implement something like that, a limited effect, but not total immunity.
Just hit and run take out adds when I can and kite the sucker around, helps if there are traps around to lead them onto
TR rogue go troll somewhere else
I am sorry, what?
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
Some great discussions going on.
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
Would be nice to see something like that pop up rather than finding it out on the run so to speak. Also having a secondary power set could help, not something you can change mid fight but if you know that the boss is resistant you can swap out to a pure dammage set. Rather than having to waste time swapping various powers around, would be useful in dungeons rather than holding people up you can hit a key and swap things out.
This is disappointing as only one power is useful for getting an edge over a boss... while debuffing with a Controller is fine with me, I would like to see it more from other powers and synergy going on as well.
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
The trick with them is to save your dodges for their PBAE attack. Otherwise it should be manageable.
No. We expected some kind of replacement effect such as slightly increased damage against foes immune to CC, or the ability to at least interrupt bosses abilities.
Well some of us don't and are ok with how it's designed. Those of us that focus on arcane mastery over chill, at any rate :P
Yes, mimics are a pain in the butt. Dodging and enfeeble is about the best you can do... but you have to wait until level 35 for that tactic.
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
You pathetic gamers should be banned from this game permanently. Seriously, you can't learn to play a game or get some skill, you gotta have the developers water down another game cause your a bunch of losers. You people make me sick!
Would you mind not holding back on your trollish attack?
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
Now you don't lose dmg bonuses, or lose dmg all together on things that are dot/cc combined.
While I agree that there are better options than the current mechanic, I don't think calling the developers stupid is going to affect any change. I'm sure they had their reasons for implementing it this way, and I'm sure they're willing to listen to reasonable discussion on the topic. And calling people "HAMSTER [...] lazy and stupid" in a post with no fewer than 26 spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors is deliciously ironic.
Streethawke, who started this thread, is focused on Arcane Mastery. I'm personally going with both arcane and ice powers, making up for lack of chill stacks with feats that let my cold powers borrow my arcane stacks. But Entangling Force is Arcane, not chill, and Entangling Force doesn't work on most of the bosses. So it's certainly not just a question of "Arcane powers work on bosses and Cold powers don't."
I think one of the major points of contention is that CWs usually get bonus damage for a target that is mezzed, and because we can't mez certain targets, we're losing a quarter of our damage against those targets. (I'm not sure, because I didn't actually know we get bonus damage vs. mezzed targets.) And it certainly doesn't make soloing impossible - what we're talking about here is a reduction in effectiveness that makes CWs less useful for boss fights. Why bring a wizard to a boss fight when you can bring a class that doesn't lose their effectiveness against said boss? I know, to deal with adds, but rogues can do that too. CWs aren't supposed to be straight up DPS, CWs are supposed to bring other things to the table.
Oops, it appears you've made a couple of errors, let me fix that for you!
My impression was the LEGITIMATE complaint was on losing DAMAGE done to bosses because of chill not applying. Not that your actual control powers don't work on the bosses. Expecting you to be able to lock down a boss the same way you can lock down a lieutenant is lunacy. If that was the point of this thread, well I completely disagree.
No I think you're right, the point is to not punish CWs with a reduction in damage just because a boss can't be mezzed. I think the topic may have wandered around a bit as people have different opinions on the subject, but I'm pretty sure Hawke wasn't suggesting that we be able to chain-hold every boss in the game.
FACT: Every boss fight has adds. These adds must be killed, or you won't survive.
SOLUTION: DPS adds and boss when you are able to.
Why is this hard to understand? This is NOT a "sit on the boss, hurp durp DPS" game. Seriously, who the **** cares?
And yes control wizards do need something as their Control needs to be polymorphed in these certain boss fights (to include mimics).
There is a feat or ability (forget which) that allows more damage to be done to a CC'd enemy, much like the Controller in CoH.
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
Fact: Coming off short and making people feel bad.
Solution: Be less hostile and see it from the viewpoint of others.
Every boss fight having adds are either too easy, or too difficult for a control wizard to handle.
Indra, boss that is around level 38-40, her fight involves at any given time 2-8 (sometimes more) respawning mini boss adds with extreme health and damage resist and does around 1500-3000 damage a hit. I dont care who you are, but no single Control Wizard can do all that work himself. Since our controls are single target and last around 3 seconds or so.
The TR has some crowd control, as does the Guardian and the Cleric. (sometimes better in certain cases). But the Control Wizard at that point has two functions, single target controls (the ice patch if you are ice oriented) and AoE attacks, albeit limited.
So yes... I do believe that the debuffs need to still happen at the very least.. but moreso the control effects could still be used on those bosses.. instead of it lasting 3 seconds, it goes 1 second, to help interrupt or slow down that big power attack.
If folks do not agree, that is fine, but to demonize those who wish for their class (all of their class) to be represented, just is not right. Please respect others in how you convey your thoughts.
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
Yeah, I don't know what people are thinking. It's not like this is a discussion forum or anything... oh wait...
You care enough to post vitriol, which has so far has increased the post count by 3. Unfortunately it hasn't contributed much to the discussion at hand.
If I understand your stance correctly, you feel that a Control Wizard's role within a group should be to damage adds and bosses. Others in this thread feel that the rogue class is better suited to DPS, and a wizard's role is more about control than DPS. The fact that control is ineffective in some cases is a point of concern, which is why we're having a discussion about possible alternative solutions.
For example, in some boss fights there are boss-level mobs in the add spawns. In some cases, there are 2 or 3 bosses in the add spawn. As a single control wizard on a team, I can engage one of those bosses and perhaps even take it down solo (taking minutes to do so) - but at that point I'm not doing anything about the main boss, or the other 1-2 bosses it spawned. So the rest of the team has to deal with that. I know there's a happy medium somewhere. Maybe the boss add spawns are just too hard, or maybe you need to fight certain bosses when everyone has outleveled the dungeon. I'm not asking for content to be push-over easy, but I also don't want to feel useless in given situations either.
Again, I'm not mad at the current mechanic, but I understand some people are unsatisfied. The forums are here to foster discussion, so that's what we're doing. If you don't care, please feel free to surf to another thread in the forum.