Pretty obvious there is something amiss in Neverwinter, unless I subscribe to the theory that every single person that thinks rogue is much stronger than the other classes is simply an ignorant fool that simply sucks at video games.
Or you're simply seeing the 3/30 marketing rule in action. When you have a positive experience you might tell as many as three people about it. When you have a negative experience you will tell an average of thirty people about it.
You could also be seeing experienced MMO players not enjoying the way that D&D works in the sense that classes are simply not intended to be "balanced" the way most MMO's are. Demanding overall changes for the PvP experience isn't particularly logical unless one demands some sort of leveled playing field for a different kind of "dueling PvP" experience. The game is about PvE with PvP as an added bonus for those who want it.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Yup, people only see numbers, not what their actually doing.
Remember that bomb rogue in Rift? it made one big hit every 10 second, mages called for nerfs, and it got hammered, even though it wasent nearly the top dps.
AoC berserkers? had loads of issues with only last hit in combo doing damage, berserkers found a way to work around it, mages called op (even though they were extremly op) and berserkers got nerfed
Assasins in Aion? they could ambush players, one of the few classes that could kill mages on ground, mages called op and assassins got nerfed through the ground.
Stealthclasses in DaoC? killed mages, then mages called op, got tons of skils to counter them, still called op, got them even more nerfed with leftaxe nerf.
Theres a pattern running through the mmo history. Mages want to kill everyone from range, if there is a class they cant kill from range and can get close, that one is op.
People should also stop seeing CW as a dps class, it shouldnt be at top in ST OR AoE, GWF should be top AoE by far, TR should be top ST by far.
IT should, there is no other dps class, and definatly not a ST one. CW is a cc class, their not about high dps, GWF is a aoe class.
If theres one class dmg that should be lowered its cleric aoe, it does way to much damage for a healingclass, some clerics speccing full power and crit has even outdpsed CW and GWF in AoE damage
0
Options
merine12Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
TR should be the most single target damage in pvp, no one is arguing that. But the margin should not be as big as it is.
Why shouldn't it be so wide, there is no other ST striker in the game right now. Nothing should touch the rogues ST dmg. I'm having a hard time understanding how any one can argue that it shouldn't be doing the most ST dmg. It has already been said by both cleric and wizards that end game they are comparable, and with the right build the TR would fall below the dmg of a CW, so someone tell me why the TR should not be doin the dmg it is doin?
0
Options
middy33Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited April 2013
It doesn't matter what game or what class there is. Someone is always going to complain.
Why shouldn't it be so wide, there is no other ST striker in the game right now. Nothing should touch the rogues ST dmg. I'm having a hard time understanding how any one can argue that it shouldn't be doing the most ST dmg. It has already been said by both cleric and wizards that end game they are comparable, and with the right build the TR would fall below the dmg of a CW, so someone tell me why the TR should not be doin the dmg it is doin?
why? because the TR is hitting for average 2500 damage in 3 seconds. and ALLL other classes using their very best of the best skills are hitting for 800-1200. you can bring the numbers up for higher levels or down for lower levels but this is the facts of tested numbers around 30th. and to answer your question this GAP of straight dps is grossly to much. YES the tr should do more damage. you and others keep saying people want the damage the same as other classes which is BS. people want the rogue to do MORE damage then other classes and have it done in commonsense. 25% more 30% maybe even 35% more which is HUUGE. but the TR is doing 75%+ more and that is stupid. there is your exact answer
why? because the TR is hitting for average 2500 damage in 3 seconds. and ALLL other classes using their very best of the best skills are hitting for 800-1200. you can bring the numbers up for higher levels or down for lower levels but this is the facts of tested numbers around 30th. and to answer your question this GAP of straight dps is grossly to much. YES the tr should do more damage. you and others keep saying people want the damage the same as other classes which is BS. people want the rogue to do MORE damage then other classes and have it done in commonsense. 25% more 30% maybe even 35% more which is HUUGE. but the TR is doing 75%+ more and that is stupid. there is your exact answer
Lets say that all of your numbers are correct. Lets say that the rogue does 75% more damage.
Are you going to not take a control wizard to handle CC and adds? Are you going to not take a GF to tank? Are you going to not take a DC for heals? Are you going to not take a GWF to AOE dps minions waves and adds so the rogue can focus on the boss?
The point is, that high DPS on a rogue does not threaten any other ROLES. They still get filled. This is how it should be balanced. If a different classes ROLE is not chosen to take another rogue, then buff that ROLE. GWF should do MORE AOE dps. CW should do MORE CC and aoe. GF should TANK better. The DC should have better heals.
That's balance.
When other strikers come out, you balance strikers to other strikers.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
Options
merine12Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
why? because the TR is hitting for average 2500 damage in 3 seconds. and ALLL other classes using their very best of the best skills are hitting for 800-1200. you can bring the numbers up for higher levels or down for lower levels but this is the facts of tested numbers around 30th. and to answer your question this GAP of straight dps is grossly to much. YES the tr should do more damage. you and others keep saying people want the damage the same as other classes whch is BS. people want the rogue to do MORE damage then other classes and have it done in commonsense. 25% more 30% maybe even 35% more which is HUUGE. but the TR is doing 75%+ more and that is stupid. there is your exact answer
s
Your so off base with that number its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> lol. You continue to try and match dips with other classes they neither have the role nor the skill set to dps like a TR. This is what they do, they should he head and shoulders above every other class in dips, it is a pure dips class. I can tell your kind of upset that your CW is getting out dpsed by a rogue, maybe your not using your skills correctly or maybe your spec ed wrong, but many high lvl GWF and CW are saying the dips is fine. How high did you get your TR? Did you play anything else ? How high did you get your other class?
why? because the TR is hitting for average 2500 damage in 3 seconds.
This is exactly the mentality I was talking about. People see that one big number.
A rogue coming out of stealth with a critical might do that, yes. But that's not an insta-kill by a long shot, and guess what, the rogue just blew his advantage. Hit him back! Rogues do NOT have that many hitpoints or AC. I've been killed plenty of times even after a picture-perfect opener for any number of reasons. GF's and CW's are especially a pain; critting them in an opener doesn't do much unless they're about to die anyway, the CW will CC you and blink, the GW will just laugh and shield-bash you. And even that's only when you're caught solo... a friend with you and that TR is dead. Or running.
Look, its going to happen. The TR is going to be toned down in pvp, the best you can hope for is that it is only in pvp.
What Developer said it's going to happen? Oh wait.. You're just making stuff up on the spot
Rogues already got nerfed once pretty considerably. I don't think they will make any more changes til people start getting max level and seeing how things scale at 60. If changes need to made then they'll make them. It's premature to make changes now.
I've read everything and here is my 2 cents : First.. we only got week-end betas..there is no way you make a constructive comment on everything if you've dedicated yourself in playing just one class..etc.. I have played a Trickster and yes it seemed overpowered for the first 25-30th level and the GWF Seemed better as it reached higer level...but i had to drink most potions on a regular basis after a while and in pvp i have seen CW have more survivability than TR..Basically, what am saying..is..you need to understand the class at higher level as well..not just the first 20-30 level..and 2nd..: there is always way to counteract a said class if you focus and/or arrange your party in accordance.Furthermore, not every TR is focused on Steath stuff..some want to be Fighter/Rouge/acrobat perhaps (Swashbuckler, etc..) and so TR needs more paragon tree as well as other classes..but good news..this is all beta..and force choke can be just as annoying to a TR..LOL... nyways.. imho , before making a quick statement, i want to have opinions from folks who have played many of the classes up to LVL 40 + so to have a more accurate comparison.. just keep in mind..that imho..a lot of folks are making statements based on their lvl 14 character in pvp...but they would soon realize that this game has more depth and that things change drastically at some point for several classes.. just my 2 cents.. Peace Y'all !
IMO TR are way OP. I play GF and TR just blows my whole guard in 3-4 sec. No other class can do that. Fight vs TR lasts for like 20-30 sec others have much more hard time of killing me.
0
Options
alan0n79Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 6Arc User
This is exactly the mentality I was talking about. People see that one big number.
A rogue coming out of stealth with a critical might do that, yes. But that's not an insta-kill by a long shot, and guess what, the rogue just blew his advantage. Hit him back! Rogues do NOT have that many hitpoints or AC. I've been killed plenty of times even after a picture-perfect opener for any number of reasons. GF's and CW's are especially a pain; critting them in an opener doesn't do much unless they're about to die anyway, the CW will CC you and blink, the GW will just laugh and shield-bash you. And even that's only when you're caught solo... a friend with you and that TR is dead. Or running.
What if my opener crits for 28,000 damage (which happens roughly 75% of the time in my build)? What does my opponent do then?
As a cleric, I solo'd fine last beta, but the -50% heal on self debuff they added this time make things a lot harder. I regularly grouped with 2 rogues, and although their single target dps is pretty insane, I could easily do more damage when it came to AEs. Heal agro was crazy this beta, too... but I hope that's all stuff that gets worked out.
Also, sometimes when you see a huge number, it's the total combined damage you've done to that mob in your current chain - pretty sure rogues attack faster than clerics, too.
yes,i have to agree that the -50% or 40% i think it is, it is a lot harder to keep yourself alive, so for say in pvp, you are getting crits from TR at about 3-7k so the 300 hit points back a second really dont do much.. no i do not think that rouges are overpowered because they are doing their jobs, but i think that they should make it 20% or no debuff.. WOW was good with the self heals because it was the same amount that was given, as recieved.
I see lots of arguments that rogues are squishy....lol right... if rogues are squishy they'd die when I unload all my encounters, daily and hit unstoppable and beat on them... they totally don't die. In fact.. I've gone toe to toe with several different lvl 60 TR's and the dmg to life ratio was higher on TR than on a dmg build GWF (I have the full Glory armor set and lvl 60 greens on the rest). I've seen ONE TR... kill 2 fully Glory Geared GWF and come out with half a life bar. My main complaint with CR isn't their At Will dmg. It's getting hit for 23k life by 2 encounters (practically insta killed).
The rogue's encounter "Lashing Blade" (which EVERY TR uses) usually half life's my GWF when done from stealth. NOT ONE SINGLE GWF Encounter skill will half life ANYONE. I'd say, a couple encounter nerfs on TR, and reduce the activation time of GWF's encounters and at wills (and attack interval), and it would be a much better balance. CW's and GWF's have to work for kills in pvp, but TR's just run up in stealth, hit Lashing Blade > Deft Strike > Dazing Strike and most anything is dead.. if not tap a couple times with at wills... or throw daggers which crit for about 3k no biggie...
I'm willing to concede that I may be playing GWF in a less than optimal build, but there's no way ANY one class should be able to easily 2 shot an equally geared opponent, or 1 v 2 and come out with 50% hp left. As to the argument that stealth is weak in pvp... you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. I agree that stealth can be less than helpful in pve late game, but that's because AI don't experience latency. In pvp... I've gone from 100% to 0% and the TR didn't even render on my screen till after I was dead, and with nothing to target, my "CC's" are kinda pointless.
GWF has no "teleport to enemy and face smash" skill like the GF has, they can't stealth like the TR, and they have no range like a CW. "oh but they have sprint".... listen.. CW has sooooo much range I've used a full bar of stamina just getting to a CW (by then I'm at 20% hp) and they just blink away and hit their daily (boom dead)... GWF lacks the gap closers, and the burst or sustained dmg output of a TR, and sure, every once in a while we get in a lucky takedown and can get a TR to 50% but there's a limit to the control a GWF can do, and once it's over... the TR will win... every time.
in what game do rogues do 2x-3x damage then other classes. most games are probably 10%-15%, not 200%-300%.
even in d&d the board game rogues don't do that much damage.
0
Options
lhvdlMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
I know u guys will find what i am about to say wierd at first but pls be objective. For me atm if there is any op class atm it is GF I myself a guardian as well and in pvp none of the classes are real threath for me. Gf can lock any class and kill pretty fast. Everybody is complaining about Ts. I know they can make very high burst damage etc. But their all attacks can be avoided very easly. Just block the daze and knock back him. They are really squishy. They are really required skill to play TS effectively. As for gfw. Everybody beleives they r useless in pvp. Right geared and skilled gwf is a real asset in pvp. It is sometimes more diffucult to kill a gwf than a GF. And their cc are very useful. What i am trying to say is opposite to common beliefs classes are not that imbalanced. People couldnt find the optimized set ups for classes yet. Dps is the easiest route and easy to see the effects. Thats why Tss are regarded op classes atm. But this game mechanics' actually work mostly on how u control adds in pve and otherplayers in pvp. If everybody tries to focus on the assets of their own classes rather than the dps concept they will notice the beauty of the other skills.
Let me give u an example. In dungeons as gf i can easly be 2nd of first in the dps. But i made some experiments. With same party sometiems i played as tank sometimes as dps and sometimes as a support class. While i play tank it was the slowest way and mostly in the boss fights my party wiped out. But when i focus on buffs like knights valor into the fray ( support + dps) and high dps oriented classfeatures my party was very succesfull. But everybody looks the dps meter and judge how you perform like that. With good gfw and a wizard in party i can assure you that our party will kill any boss in this game very fast and BY ALSO KILLING THE ADDS very easly. But if u keep looking only the dps at the end u can hardly understand the real asset of the classes.
I know u guys will find what i am about to say wierd at first but pls be objective. For me atm if there is any op class atm it is GF I myself a guardian as well and in pvp none of the classes are real threath for me. Gf can lock any class and kill pretty fast. Everybody is complaining about Ts. I know they can make very high burst damage etc. But their all attacks can be avoided very easly. Just block the daze and knock back him. They are really squishy. They are really required skill to play TS effectively. As for gfw. Everybody beleives they r useless in pvp. Right geared and skilled gwf is a real asset in pvp. It is sometimes more diffucult to kill a gwf than a GF. And their cc are very useful. What i am trying to say is opposite to common beliefs classes are not that imbalanced. People couldnt find the optimized set ups for classes yet. Dps is the easiest route and easy to see the effects. Thats why Tss are regarded op classes atm. But this game mechanics' actually work mostly on how u control adds in pve and otherplayers in pvp. If everybody tries to focus on the assets of their own classes rather than the dps concept they will notice the beauty of the other skills.
Let me give u an example. In dungeons as gf i can easly be 2nd of first in the dps. But i made some experiments. With same party sometiems i played as tank sometimes as dps and sometimes as a support class. While i play tank it was the slowest way and mostly in the boss fights my party wiped out. But when i focus on buffs like knights valor into the fray ( support + dps) and high dps oriented classfeatures my party was very succesfull. But everybody looks the dps meter and judge how you perform like that. With good gfw and a wizard in party i can assure you that our party will kill any boss in this game very fast and BY ALSO KILLING THE ADDS very easly. But if u keep looking only the dps at the end u can hardly understand the real asset of the classes.
gwf's cc? they have a knockdown and stun. every other class has more than that. yeah a gf can start to do good damage, only when theres tons of adds. which makes the fights longer and the boss slowly goes down. same with gwf, their single target damage sucks. when classes have to run out of aoes they lose dps.
you can easily tell rogues and cw have high dps because in blues when they hit 60 they easily outdamage other classes. so when your so called geared, put that good gear on them and see what happens.
when i see guildies form t2's they always ask for cw and rogue. so even the general populations knows what to bring to groups.
I think the combat in this game has some real issues in general. Sure a Rouge class should be able to burst down cloth and or leather class in a couple of seconds, the problem is that they do it against mail and plate classes aswell. The second broken thing about the class is the CC the class have, wich brings me to the second issue of the combat. Crowd controll is just way to ****ed up atm, the game needs something called immunity timers, every time you get hit by a CC you get immunity to that CC type f
I did not read all the pages, but I thought I might add my 2c here.
What I'm about to discuss concerns PVE
In DnD 4ed - the system on which this game is based there are 4 roles and Neverwinter features 1 class per role atm (I'll discuss GWF later).
Striker - currently only the Rogue class
Controller - currently only the Wizard
Leader - currently only the Cleric
Defender - currently only the Fighter
The Rogue is suppose to be the DPS of the group. You can not compare the damage of the ONLY specialised DPS class with the other classes. This is typical WOW mentality - not all classes are suppose to be 'comparable'.
Similarly Wizards are suppose to CONTROL the fights with their CCs, slows, knockbacks and AoE etc.
The Cleric needs to heal, buff and support while the Fighter needs to tank and absorb the majority of attacks.
Once Cryptic release more classes that fall into the each of the primary Roles eg. another striker like a Barbarian, Monk or Warlock
Only then can you can you compare DPS within the Striker role.
Similarly, you can only compare Defenders, Leaders and Controllers with other classes in the same Role.
The GWF is a sub-class of the Fighter and according to strict DnD 4ed rules, are the DPS off-shoot of the Defender.
I'm not quite sure where Cryptic wants to position this 'version' of the class - it looks and feels like an off-tank / secondary DPS hybrid char. I'm personally not a big fan of how they implemented the GWF as this feels like first step towards the WOW homogenisation of classes.
The only valid point this discussion has from what I've read (first 2 pages) is the PVP aspect. Where you need damage to kill your opponent and where things could feel unbalanced. This is a PVP balance issue needs to be addressed specifically in the PVP environment and should NOT affect PVE.
I did not read all the pages, but I thought I might add my 2c here.
What I'm about to discuss concerns PVE
In DnD 4ed - the system on which this game is based there are 4 roles and Neverwinter features 1 class per role atm (I'll discuss GWF later).
Striker - currently only the Rogue class
Controller - currently only the Wizard
Leader - currently only the Cleric
Defender - currently only the Fighter
The Rogue is suppose to be the DPS of the group. You can not compare the damage of the ONLY specialised DPS class with the other classes. This is typical WOW mentality - not all classes are suppose to be 'comparable'.
Similarly Wizards are suppose to CONTROL the fights with their CCs, slows, knockbacks and AoE etc.
The Cleric needs to heal, buff and support while the Fighter needs to tank and absorb the majority of attacks.
Once Cryptic release more classes that fall into the each of the primary Roles eg. another striker like a Barbarian, Monk or Warlock
Only then can you can you compare DPS within the Striker role.
Similarly, you can only compare Defenders, Leaders and Controllers with other classes in the same Role.
The GWF is a sub-class of the Fighter and according to strict DnD 4ed rules, are the DPS off-shoot of the Defender.
I'm not quite sure where Cryptic wants to position this 'version' of the class - it looks and feels like an off-tank / secondary DPS hybrid char. I'm personally not a big fan of how they implemented the GWF as this feels like first step towards the WOW homogenisation of classes.
The only valid point this discussion has from what I've read (first 2 pages) is the PVP aspect. Where you need damage to kill your opponent and where things could feel unbalanced. This is a PVP balance issue needs to be addressed specifically in the PVP environment and should NOT affect PVE.
you do know control wizards do simliar damage to rogues. so your theory is flawed. if control wizards are only meant to control then their damage should be low. plus wizards usually run out of mana or spells per day if you recall d&d. you can't cast forever. also in d&d your health is based on class, where in this game everyone has nearly 20k health. wizards should have probably 13k and rogues 15k. gf and gwf should get more from constitution but its just equal to everyone else. i just know 3.0 and before d&d because 4.0 was a mode of WoW.
0
Options
nam19772Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
This is not a ADD 4th edition conversion. They kept the lexical terms to please the fans and give it a D&D feel but the mechanics are entirely different. Actually, I don't know if it's an engine limitation or something but the mechanics and maths are almost entirely taken directly from Champions Online.
So instead of brandishing your 4th rules exemples and telling people they have no valid point beside pvp, you may want to log in the game and see how things work there.
I did not read all the pages, but I thought I might add my 2c here.
What I'm about to discuss concerns PVE
In DnD 4ed - the system on which this game is based there are 4 roles and Neverwinter features 1 class per role atm (I'll discuss GWF later).
Striker - currently only the Rogue class
Controller - currently only the Wizard
Leader - currently only the Cleric
Defender - currently only the Fighter
The Rogue is suppose to be the DPS of the group. You can not compare the damage of the ONLY specialised DPS class with the other classes. This is typical WOW mentality - not all classes are suppose to be 'comparable'.
Similarly Wizards are suppose to CONTROL the fights with their CCs, slows, knockbacks and AoE etc.
The Cleric needs to heal, buff and support while the Fighter needs to tank and absorb the majority of attacks.
Once Cryptic release more classes that fall into the each of the primary Roles eg. another striker like a Barbarian, Monk or Warlock
Only then can you can you compare DPS within the Striker role.
Similarly, you can only compare Defenders, Leaders and Controllers with other classes in the same Role.
The GWF is a sub-class of the Fighter and according to strict DnD 4ed rules, are the DPS off-shoot of the Defender.
I'm not quite sure where Cryptic wants to position this 'version' of the class - it looks and feels like an off-tank / secondary DPS hybrid char. I'm personally not a big fan of how they implemented the GWF as this feels like first step towards the WOW homogenisation of classes.
The only valid point this discussion has from what I've read (first 2 pages) is the PVP aspect. Where you need damage to kill your opponent and where things could feel unbalanced. This is a PVP balance issue needs to be addressed specifically in the PVP environment and should NOT affect PVE.
I'm sorry but please do try to wake up here. Gwf is not a welcome class in pve nor pvp, there is no reason for this class to exist at all. And fyi the defender class is a cleric. Better threat, better defense, no point in having a fighter class at all in pve.
0
Options
lhvdlMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 3Arc User
gwf's cc? they have a knockdown and stun. every other class has more than that. yeah a gf can start to do good damage, only when theres tons of adds. which makes the fights longer and the boss slowly goes down. same with gwf, their single target damage sucks. when classes have to run out of aoes they lose dps.
you can easily tell rogues and cw have high dps because in blues when they hit 60 they easily outdamage other classes. so when your so called geared, put that good gear on them and see what happens.
when i see guildies form t2's they always ask for cw and rogue. so even the general populations knows what to bring to groups.
M8 u get it all wrong. Lemme explain you over some skills. When I use into the fray buff as an encounter, it decrease my Personal dps as i am using 1 less dps encounters. But it gives whole party % 50 increased action point gain. So basicly it increases the overall dps of the whole party considerably. And lemme clear out the dps part. My cleave mostly hits around 2k 2.5 to mobs it is not only about my gear it is about how u use ur feats and class features. In the boss fights i sometimes crit for around 35 40k. So single dps is also viable . Of course we are not Ts and we cant and shouldnt have that kind of burst dps. When everbody starts to learn other classes, and to use their powers in a harmony everybody starts to understand how every class is able to become an asset.
i don't think the GWF is a gimped class, but all the other classes are just stronger, GWF have no definitive role, so it get stucked between Rouges and GF, i've played other games were this been a big issue and the class gets abonded by players aswell as devs, it's not looking very bright for the GWF atm and devs need to sort out what this class should be doing. A class thats good to execute alot of trashmobs quick isn't really a good feat. I think the class needs some survival buffs in general, this is noticeble even at the start of the game. There's currently 2 builds floating around, the first being a ST stunlock build, and the other a shout AoE build. Rest is pretty much trash.
Rogue classes are historically tricky to balance in any MMO.
My feeling is that Rogues are overpowered at lower skill levels, as they can probably use their default attack and kill most classes that don't know what they're doing.
With higher skillcaps, and even gear, I suspect things even out with positioning and team coordination.
They probably will get nerfed though, happens all the time. As a GF, I don't mind them.
Comments
Or you're simply seeing the 3/30 marketing rule in action. When you have a positive experience you might tell as many as three people about it. When you have a negative experience you will tell an average of thirty people about it.
You could also be seeing experienced MMO players not enjoying the way that D&D works in the sense that classes are simply not intended to be "balanced" the way most MMO's are. Demanding overall changes for the PvP experience isn't particularly logical unless one demands some sort of leveled playing field for a different kind of "dueling PvP" experience. The game is about PvE with PvP as an added bonus for those who want it.
Yup, people only see numbers, not what their actually doing.
Remember that bomb rogue in Rift? it made one big hit every 10 second, mages called for nerfs, and it got hammered, even though it wasent nearly the top dps.
AoC berserkers? had loads of issues with only last hit in combo doing damage, berserkers found a way to work around it, mages called op (even though they were extremly op) and berserkers got nerfed
Assasins in Aion? they could ambush players, one of the few classes that could kill mages on ground, mages called op and assassins got nerfed through the ground.
Stealthclasses in DaoC? killed mages, then mages called op, got tons of skils to counter them, still called op, got them even more nerfed with leftaxe nerf.
Theres a pattern running through the mmo history. Mages want to kill everyone from range, if there is a class they cant kill from range and can get close, that one is op.
People should also stop seeing CW as a dps class, it shouldnt be at top in ST OR AoE, GWF should be top AoE by far, TR should be top ST by far.
If theres one class dmg that should be lowered its cleric aoe, it does way to much damage for a healingclass, some clerics speccing full power and crit has even outdpsed CW and GWF in AoE damage
Why shouldn't it be so wide, there is no other ST striker in the game right now. Nothing should touch the rogues ST dmg. I'm having a hard time understanding how any one can argue that it shouldn't be doing the most ST dmg. It has already been said by both cleric and wizards that end game they are comparable, and with the right build the TR would fall below the dmg of a CW, so someone tell me why the TR should not be doin the dmg it is doin?
why? because the TR is hitting for average 2500 damage in 3 seconds. and ALLL other classes using their very best of the best skills are hitting for 800-1200. you can bring the numbers up for higher levels or down for lower levels but this is the facts of tested numbers around 30th. and to answer your question this GAP of straight dps is grossly to much. YES the tr should do more damage. you and others keep saying people want the damage the same as other classes which is BS. people want the rogue to do MORE damage then other classes and have it done in commonsense. 25% more 30% maybe even 35% more which is HUUGE. but the TR is doing 75%+ more and that is stupid. there is your exact answer
Lets say that all of your numbers are correct. Lets say that the rogue does 75% more damage.
Are you going to not take a control wizard to handle CC and adds? Are you going to not take a GF to tank? Are you going to not take a DC for heals? Are you going to not take a GWF to AOE dps minions waves and adds so the rogue can focus on the boss?
The point is, that high DPS on a rogue does not threaten any other ROLES. They still get filled. This is how it should be balanced. If a different classes ROLE is not chosen to take another rogue, then buff that ROLE. GWF should do MORE AOE dps. CW should do MORE CC and aoe. GF should TANK better. The DC should have better heals.
That's balance.
When other strikers come out, you balance strikers to other strikers.
Your so off base with that number its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> lol. You continue to try and match dips with other classes they neither have the role nor the skill set to dps like a TR. This is what they do, they should he head and shoulders above every other class in dips, it is a pure dips class. I can tell your kind of upset that your CW is getting out dpsed by a rogue, maybe your not using your skills correctly or maybe your spec ed wrong, but many high lvl GWF and CW are saying the dips is fine. How high did you get your TR? Did you play anything else ? How high did you get your other class?
This is exactly the mentality I was talking about. People see that one big number.
A rogue coming out of stealth with a critical might do that, yes. But that's not an insta-kill by a long shot, and guess what, the rogue just blew his advantage. Hit him back! Rogues do NOT have that many hitpoints or AC. I've been killed plenty of times even after a picture-perfect opener for any number of reasons. GF's and CW's are especially a pain; critting them in an opener doesn't do much unless they're about to die anyway, the CW will CC you and blink, the GW will just laugh and shield-bash you. And even that's only when you're caught solo... a friend with you and that TR is dead. Or running.
Rogues already got nerfed once pretty considerably. I don't think they will make any more changes til people start getting max level and seeing how things scale at 60. If changes need to made then they'll make them. It's premature to make changes now.
What if my opener crits for 28,000 damage (which happens roughly 75% of the time in my build)? What does my opponent do then?
Also kudos on the necro
yes,i have to agree that the -50% or 40% i think it is, it is a lot harder to keep yourself alive, so for say in pvp, you are getting crits from TR at about 3-7k so the 300 hit points back a second really dont do much.. no i do not think that rouges are overpowered because they are doing their jobs, but i think that they should make it 20% or no debuff.. WOW was good with the self heals because it was the same amount that was given, as recieved.
The rogue's encounter "Lashing Blade" (which EVERY TR uses) usually half life's my GWF when done from stealth. NOT ONE SINGLE GWF Encounter skill will half life ANYONE. I'd say, a couple encounter nerfs on TR, and reduce the activation time of GWF's encounters and at wills (and attack interval), and it would be a much better balance. CW's and GWF's have to work for kills in pvp, but TR's just run up in stealth, hit Lashing Blade > Deft Strike > Dazing Strike and most anything is dead.. if not tap a couple times with at wills... or throw daggers which crit for about 3k no biggie...
I'm willing to concede that I may be playing GWF in a less than optimal build, but there's no way ANY one class should be able to easily 2 shot an equally geared opponent, or 1 v 2 and come out with 50% hp left. As to the argument that stealth is weak in pvp... you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. I agree that stealth can be less than helpful in pve late game, but that's because AI don't experience latency. In pvp... I've gone from 100% to 0% and the TR didn't even render on my screen till after I was dead, and with nothing to target, my "CC's" are kinda pointless.
GWF has no "teleport to enemy and face smash" skill like the GF has, they can't stealth like the TR, and they have no range like a CW. "oh but they have sprint".... listen.. CW has sooooo much range I've used a full bar of stamina just getting to a CW (by then I'm at 20% hp) and they just blink away and hit their daily (boom dead)... GWF lacks the gap closers, and the burst or sustained dmg output of a TR, and sure, every once in a while we get in a lucky takedown and can get a TR to 50% but there's a limit to the control a GWF can do, and once it's over... the TR will win... every time.
even in d&d the board game rogues don't do that much damage.
Let me give u an example. In dungeons as gf i can easly be 2nd of first in the dps. But i made some experiments. With same party sometiems i played as tank sometimes as dps and sometimes as a support class. While i play tank it was the slowest way and mostly in the boss fights my party wiped out. But when i focus on buffs like knights valor into the fray ( support + dps) and high dps oriented classfeatures my party was very succesfull. But everybody looks the dps meter and judge how you perform like that. With good gfw and a wizard in party i can assure you that our party will kill any boss in this game very fast and BY ALSO KILLING THE ADDS very easly. But if u keep looking only the dps at the end u can hardly understand the real asset of the classes.
gwf's cc? they have a knockdown and stun. every other class has more than that. yeah a gf can start to do good damage, only when theres tons of adds. which makes the fights longer and the boss slowly goes down. same with gwf, their single target damage sucks. when classes have to run out of aoes they lose dps.
you can easily tell rogues and cw have high dps because in blues when they hit 60 they easily outdamage other classes. so when your so called geared, put that good gear on them and see what happens.
when i see guildies form t2's they always ask for cw and rogue. so even the general populations knows what to bring to groups.
What I'm about to discuss concerns PVE
In DnD 4ed - the system on which this game is based there are 4 roles and Neverwinter features 1 class per role atm (I'll discuss GWF later).
Striker - currently only the Rogue class
Controller - currently only the Wizard
Leader - currently only the Cleric
Defender - currently only the Fighter
The Rogue is suppose to be the DPS of the group. You can not compare the damage of the ONLY specialised DPS class with the other classes. This is typical WOW mentality - not all classes are suppose to be 'comparable'.
Similarly Wizards are suppose to CONTROL the fights with their CCs, slows, knockbacks and AoE etc.
The Cleric needs to heal, buff and support while the Fighter needs to tank and absorb the majority of attacks.
Once Cryptic release more classes that fall into the each of the primary Roles eg. another striker like a Barbarian, Monk or Warlock
Only then can you can you compare DPS within the Striker role.
Similarly, you can only compare Defenders, Leaders and Controllers with other classes in the same Role.
The GWF is a sub-class of the Fighter and according to strict DnD 4ed rules, are the DPS off-shoot of the Defender.
I'm not quite sure where Cryptic wants to position this 'version' of the class - it looks and feels like an off-tank / secondary DPS hybrid char. I'm personally not a big fan of how they implemented the GWF as this feels like first step towards the WOW homogenisation of classes.
The only valid point this discussion has from what I've read (first 2 pages) is the PVP aspect. Where you need damage to kill your opponent and where things could feel unbalanced. This is a PVP balance issue needs to be addressed specifically in the PVP environment and should NOT affect PVE.
you do know control wizards do simliar damage to rogues. so your theory is flawed. if control wizards are only meant to control then their damage should be low. plus wizards usually run out of mana or spells per day if you recall d&d. you can't cast forever. also in d&d your health is based on class, where in this game everyone has nearly 20k health. wizards should have probably 13k and rogues 15k. gf and gwf should get more from constitution but its just equal to everyone else. i just know 3.0 and before d&d because 4.0 was a mode of WoW.
This is not a ADD 4th edition conversion. They kept the lexical terms to please the fans and give it a D&D feel but the mechanics are entirely different. Actually, I don't know if it's an engine limitation or something but the mechanics and maths are almost entirely taken directly from Champions Online.
So instead of brandishing your 4th rules exemples and telling people they have no valid point beside pvp, you may want to log in the game and see how things work there.
I'm sorry but please do try to wake up here. Gwf is not a welcome class in pve nor pvp, there is no reason for this class to exist at all. And fyi the defender class is a cleric. Better threat, better defense, no point in having a fighter class at all in pve.
M8 u get it all wrong. Lemme explain you over some skills. When I use into the fray buff as an encounter, it decrease my Personal dps as i am using 1 less dps encounters. But it gives whole party % 50 increased action point gain. So basicly it increases the overall dps of the whole party considerably. And lemme clear out the dps part. My cleave mostly hits around 2k 2.5 to mobs it is not only about my gear it is about how u use ur feats and class features. In the boss fights i sometimes crit for around 35 40k. So single dps is also viable . Of course we are not Ts and we cant and shouldnt have that kind of burst dps. When everbody starts to learn other classes, and to use their powers in a harmony everybody starts to understand how every class is able to become an asset.
My feeling is that Rogues are overpowered at lower skill levels, as they can probably use their default attack and kill most classes that don't know what they're doing.
With higher skillcaps, and even gear, I suspect things even out with positioning and team coordination.
They probably will get nerfed though, happens all the time. As a GF, I don't mind them.
60 GF(14.5GS) Cersei
60 CW(12.4GS) Shadis
60 TR(12.2GS) Dijkstra
60 GWF(12.2GS) Winnowill
45 DC(WIP) Daenerys