But it is true it is not the 4e Table, top it is an MMO. An MMO needs to have class balance if you want people to play and have fun. Which from most of the feedback I've seen the TR is not balanced.
Did you even read my post? People are complaining TR is unbalanced because it does more damage than everyone else. It does so by design because it is the only striker type class in the game right now. People assumed (incorrectly) that GWF was a striker also and hence cried that TR was OP because they did much more damage in BW4. But being that GWF is technically classed as a defender their claims are invalid. Clerics are Leaders CW are Controllers and aren't supposed to do as much as strikers either. Before someone cries about those as well.
Classes can be perfectly balanced while sticking to base 4e class types. They just need to add another striker class asap (Archer Ranger soon) so people can better understand how the class types work in this game. Lots of GW2 and WoW players don't understand how it's supposed to work here it seems. Every class doesn't do everything equally. Get your homogenization loving nonsense out of my game.
0
zaketrinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
drago,
I understand what you're saying. The concept of class balance in MMOs has a long history. Heck, we played other games with damage meters to gauge a player's effectiveness. I was one of those players.
This isn't those MMOs.
Balance has no meaning in solo play. In group play, the other 4 players should welcome high single target damage. It's not a damage competition. However, PvP raises some issues. I cannot visualize how a game based on DnD 4e can have a balance PvP element without level dps. However, levelizing dps deviates from the basic concept of roles. I wonder if this dilemma has generated spirited debates among the developers.
It will be interesting to see how Cryptic addresses this problem.
Well I was not really responding to your post Tacc, I was responding to zaketrin. But any why the reason people are crying about it in the GWF's case from how I see it is that they secondary striker which should at least get them closer to the TR's damage then the other classes. But I agree with you that they should not be crying this much over it and should be happy if they are close to the damage.
I understand zaketrin. I'm just worried that the how people are reacting to the whole class balance thing will drive people away from the game before it comes out and I like many people want a lot of people to play the game so we can have more fun with it. I also agree that PvP can raise problems for games like this. But I am hoping that find a why to separate changes to power so something can be changed in PvP but not effect PvE.
I think a lot of it is that right now the rogue is really the only dps class in the game. The great weapon fighter is not a pure dps class, sort of a support hybrid off-tank. The wizard, as the name implies is a control wizard so while they can do good dps they have some CC as well, then obviously the cleric and guardian are not dps. So it's not really unbalancing that the rogue is the strongest dps as it currently is the only pure dps class in the game right now. When they add classes like the ranger or warlock that are more dps focused (I'm assuming) I think the lines will be less blurred.
0
najitoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited April 2013
I don't get this topic at all isnt this the way it goes;
Cleric : Has high vitality, has a supporter role, does the least damage.
Fighter (Or a Warrior w/e): Has balanced offensive/defensive ratio can be the tanks etc.
Wizard: Has good evasion, does a nice deal of damage to multiple mobs and a damage supporter
Rouges: Has high evasion, does the highest DPS, sneaky bishes, dies from few hits if taken.
Mostly the roles are like these if im not mistaken. They are meant to assasinate before anyone can do anything. I didnt play D&D that much so I dunno the basics of the game at all but It should be like this.. Sorry If I'm mistaken.
najito that is correct except for the fact that in pvp rogues are the best tanks as well. It takes a minimum of 3 ppl to kill a rogue. If we reduced the survivability of the rogue, they would be much more in line with the role.
najito that is correct except for the fact that in pvp rogues are the best tanks as well. It takes a minimum of 3 ppl to kill a rogue. If we reduced the survivability of the rogue, they would be much more in line with the role.
Rogues already have the survivability of snowballs in hell at high level PvE unless they are well played.
I have seen numerous vids where a rogue wins a 2v1 or even 3v1 fight, it is ridiculous.
From the ones that I have seen, they have shown people playing poorly. When a CW tries to Leroy Jenkins a rogue, the CW is going to become a pincushion.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
the rogues first 3 seconds of attacks kills at least 2 mobs if not partials of the others ( if it is a good smart rogue an lines them up ) then the ropgue attacks fast and kills all 5 in say 8 seconds......... ( that's example) the GWF.. he only gets about 5 attacks off in that same time and hopes he is able to kill them........or heres another example. rogues at will attack hits for 400 and fast... gwf at will hits 3 targets at 180each and attacks half the speed of the rogue..... start to add those numbers up.
oh yeah.. gwf is DPS. plain n simple DPS.( please don't be one of the moronic tards that says the gwf is a tank/controller lolol just stop don't.. really/...) and has NO ranged attack. so....
Really? The devs, you know..the ones who made the game and know more than you about it, have stated that the GWF IS an AoE defender/striker hybrid. Your opinion on what it is is wrong. Every single one of your posts is so full of arrogant and snide comments, reading them makes me nauseous. THE ROGUE IS THE ONLY STRIKER CLASS! How many **** times do people have to explain this to you?
0
zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Rogues already have the survivability of snowballs in hell at high level PvE unless they are well played.
From the ones that I have seen, they have shown people playing poorly. When a CW tries to Leroy Jenkins a rogue, the CW is going to become a pincushion.
In one statement it is fine that TRs can 1v3 because the opponents lack skill. In the other statement it is fine that TRs can tank because some lack skill to survive.
I'm not saying TRs are necessarily too strong, but your statements kind of go against each other.
najito that is correct except for the fact that in pvp rogues are the best tanks as well. It takes a minimum of 3 ppl to kill a rogue. If we reduced the survivability of the rogue, they would be much more in line with the role.
I think I just got dumber when I read this statement. Does anyone with a lick of common sense really believe it takes 3 people to kill a Rogue? Like I said in the other thread where these asinine claims were made. If it takes 3 people to kill 1 of ANY class those 3 people are god awful at PvP. No ifs ands or buts about it. You're absolutely delusional if you say anything otherwise. I could win 1v1 most of the time however in 2v1 and especially 3v1 situations it was extremely rare that I walked away alive. I did pull off several 2v1's but it was blatantly obvious that the players I was fighting against really had no idea how to play their class. I don't think I ever 3v1'd anyone. I might have killed 3 people back to back while team fighting. But NEVER did I get anywhere CLOSE to walking up to 3 people at the same time and killing all 3 of them.
I played a Rogue and have first hand experience. I've been at high levels of WoW arena PvP on several characters. I've had high rated BG ratings on several characters. I was one of the best healers in my Rift PvP guild when I played. Plus playing some PvP in pretty much every other MMO made since 1999. With that experience I can tell you that 1v1 I had a pretty good chance at killing anyone but this game nor most MMO's are balanced for 1v1 PvP. Being that Rogue is the only true dps class in the game right now it makes sense that they win most 1v1's. Using WoW pvp as a reference how often would you say a Holy Priest or Resto Shaman beats a Rogue in a 1v1 fight? Basically never unless the Rogue is a moron. Every class in Neverwinter besides rogue is basically a healer or tank by WoW standards. There's no other DPS class to counter the rogue in 1v1 fights as of yet. When Archer Ranger and Scourge Warlock get released it will be a different story.
I have seen numerous vids where a rogue wins a 2v1 or even 3v1 fight, it is ridiculous.
I've seen these videos too. I watched THREE people attacking a TANK (GF) with his shield up while a Rogue one by one killed all 3 of them. The entire time none of them turned around to hit the rogue 1 time. They all just focused the tank. Do you REALLY think rogues are OP cause he 3v1'd 3 people that have absolutely ZERO idea how to play video games? Show me a video where a Rogue 3v1's people that play as good or better than my 70 year old Grandmother and then I'll believe you that it's ridiculous how OP those crazy rogues are.
najito that is correct except for the fact that in pvp rogues are the best tanks as well. It takes a minimum of 3 ppl to kill a rogue. If we reduced the survivability of the rogue, they would be much more in line with the role.
WoW, Now TR are tanks in PvP. What this world is coming to... Really if TR is a pain so much for some people matter well those people scrap Neverwinter and play something else. At the end this game is for the masses not for a few.
In one statement it is fine that TRs can 1v3 because the opponents lack skill. In the other statement it is fine that TRs can tank because some lack skill to survive.
I'm not saying TRs are necessarily too strong, but your statements kind of go against each other.
in one statement TR's need to be played well because they aren't tanks. In the other statement a non-striker attacks a striker as though the former is a striker and is shredded for it. There is no contradiction here.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
0
derresshMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited April 2013
None of this arguing really matters to be perfectly honest. I'm sure the Devs will be keeping an eye on PvP once the game is released, and if they start to notice a trend where TR are the only ones performing well at endgame, they'll do the required nerfing/buffing. However, if the other classes are able to generally hold their own, then the Devs can ignore the people asking for nerfs on the premise that they are simply not as skilled.
Because honestly, PvP is the only place where a class can be "overpowered" at the moment. Unless it gets to the point where a 5 TR group can tear through endgame bosses in seconds (while taking next to no damage because of the speed of the encounter), when it would normally take a normal group loadout several minutes (coughPWIcough), their power in PvE doesn't really matter.
0
najitoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited April 2013
I feel like I'll be cursed a lot for picking rouge o.o'
a group of 5 rogues trying to kill a very high level boss would likely die as soon as the boss swarms the room with 20-30 adds and since there is no one to tank them when the stealth runs out and high level rogues are as durable as wet paper in PvE with their stealth down. also bosses spam AoE when they cannot see any target but they are attacked (basically they'll try to blindly attack the rogue, not to say they are very good at that but the 5 TR party still needs to focus on what's going on or just die as most boss AoE can 1shot them)
i am indeed looking forward to the moment when destroyers typically fail completely relying on the party to resurrect them countless times because of low defence, cc and self-healing powers. Not because i hate rogues but because i have always paid the most attention to making my chars survivable in most situations. Does it seem like a contradiction that dps based characters can own much of the beginning of a campaign while the support builds have a hard time ? The moment when really hard dungeons arrive that put a lot of strain on all party members is when the grit comes out in you. We haven't seen anything yet, and i sincerely hope that coop strategies will become more and more important as the game progresses.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
derresshMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
a group of 5 rogues trying to kill a very high level boss would likely die as soon as the boss swarms the room with 20-30 adds and since there is no one to tank them when the stealth runs out and high level rogues are as durable as wet paper in PvE with their stealth down. also bosses spam AoE when they cannot see any target but they are attacked (basically they'll try to blindly attack the rogue, not to say they are very good at that but the 5 TR party still needs to focus on what's going on or just die as most boss AoE can 1shot them)
Exactly my point. As long as PvE group content isn't dominated by them (which it won't be), then PvP is the only balancing they MAY need. And it is definitely possible to balance PvP without effecting PvE, the CW's control durations have shown that.
0
vengie2k5Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited April 2013
no nerf to the rogue
0
lexthegreatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I am also a Cleric and find that Wizards and GWF do too much AOE damage. They are too easy to play compared to the Cleric and are waaaay too overpowered. Please nerf them.
Also in Rock Paper Scissors, I always use Rock. Scissors is fine but paper needs a nerf.
That was sarcasm btw. Cleric can heal. Rogue can do great single target damage. Wizzy and GWF can do great AOE damage, and the GF can umm... Block.
Honestly the Cleric and the GF are a bit UP from what I see, while the Rogue could use more control options.
0
lexthegreatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
We've isolated some issues with the Trickster Rogue being overpowered in specific cases, and are making changes to certain powers. Thanks for all of your feedback!
Thanks for the heads up. Going to go with Wizzy most likely then.
ALSO I was in a PvP match with a cleric, and the guy actually healed his team mates, I'm unable to do ANYTHING like this. NERF.
While we are on the topic, I was sneaking up on this CW 1 on 1, and the guy manages to stun lock me and then knock me back like halfway across the map. I couldn't even touch him! HOW IS THIS FAIR OMG NERF PLZ GOD.
ALSO I was in a PvP match with a cleric, and the guy actually healed his team mates, I'm unable to do ANYTHING like this. NERF.
While we are on the topic, I was sneaking up on this CW 1 on 1, and the guy manages to stun lock me and then knock me back like halfway across the map. I couldn't even touch him! HOW IS THIS FAIR OMG NERF PLZ GOD.
you people are all silly.
Strange you wouldn't mention fighter. Just saying!
*whistles away*
0
malkavianiteMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 30Arc User
They don't need nor should they have any ranged attacks. They are a melee class. For some strange reason they have been given the strongest at will ranged attack available. It just makes no sense.
Honestly, I just flat out got tired of seeing so many TRs running around. Overall I think they are balanced, just having the best at will ranged attack is silly.
I gotta say, it's rather amusing watching you try to wrap your head around such a simple concept. Guess what! Just because a class is mainly melee, doesn't mean they can't have a ranged option. In fact, it'd be pretty dumb not to. Just as you'd be hard-pressed to find an archer without a backup sword for when they get forced into melee, it's not that odd to find those who specialise in melee with some sort of ranged option themselves.
As for their ranged at-will being stronger than the two ranged classes' at-wills? TR=DPS, DC and CW=Heals/CC/Support. Point being, just because they are ranged, doesn't automatically mean that their ranged attacks should be more powerful, since they are not ranged DPS. If it ends up being stronger than the at-wills of the Archer Ranger or Warlock (I'm assuming that one will be a dps too?), then you definitely have a point, but until such time, no.
0
malkavianiteMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 30Arc User
Strange you wouldn't mention fighter. Just saying!
*whistles away*
Nerf the Guardian because I was wailing on one and they were just shrugging off all the damage. When I hit something, I want to remove more than a sliver of health dammit!
Nerf the Great-Weapon Fighter because then maybe the gods will finally take pity on the poor things and make them decent once more.
0
zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
ALSO I was in a PvP match with a cleric, and the guy actually healed his team mates, I'm unable to do ANYTHING like this. NERF.
While we are on the topic, I was sneaking up on this CW 1 on 1, and the guy manages to stun lock me and then knock me back like halfway across the map. I couldn't even touch him! HOW IS THIS FAIR OMG NERF PLZ GOD.
you people are all silly.
Cleric is a debuff/buff class. Healing is for rubes.
Hmmm. I read 29 full pages of this thread and here is what I take away from it:
If you think rogues are OP, you suck/can't play class right/don't understand/are stupid...
Pretty obvious there is something amiss in Neverwinter, unless I subscribe to the theory that every single person that thinks rogue is much stronger than the other classes is simply an ignorant fool that simply sucks at video games.
Just a thought: When everyone else has to adjust/build specifically to counter the same class, maybe it means that said class is just plain down too dominate. Don't hear much about rogues adjusting/building to counter any other class...
Hmmm. I read 29 full pages of this thread and here is what I take away from it:
If you think rogues are OP, you suck/can't play class right/don't understand/are stupid...
People get defensive when someone yells NERF THIS GUY
And rightly so. DPS classes always, always, always get this kind of treatment in the forums, regardless of the balancing disadvantages of the class; people see those big numbers on the screen, or get blindsided in PvP, and think whoa, this is unfair. I felt kind of overwhelmed as a TR when I got my booty handed to me, at distance, by a CW. I got stun-locked and he just burned me down before I could close on him. Unfair!
The truth was: he saw me coming from a good long way, I didn't have a refresh on stealth, and he pwned me. If I'd seen him first and stealthed... different outcome, probably. Unless of course he had a friend nearby, of any class. 2 vs 1 of any two classes against a rogue and that's a dead TR or a retreating TR.
My point is: all a TR does is that one trick, there's no other options. We're squishy, we can't CC, we can't tank, we have poor damage mitigation. You know who I got zero kills in PvP against? Guardian fighters. It takes so long to hurt them, by the time they get to 3/4th health, someone else from their team has shown up to assist, and then we have only two options: flee or die. You want to know how to frustrate rogues in PvP? Travel with a buddy.
Please don't call for nerfs to the TR, we die a lot already. It can be frustrating to get jumped from stealth and killed, I realize, just like it was frustrating for me to get ranged to death... but I'm not calling for a nerf to CW. That's what they do. I have a mechanic in place to beat them, I just didn't use it, and so it is with almost everyone else against a TR.
Pretty obvious there is something amiss in Neverwinter, unless I subscribe to the theory that every single person that thinks rogue is much stronger than the other classes is simply an ignorant fool that simply sucks at video games.
Or you're simply seeing the 3/30 marketing rule in action. When you have a positive experience you might tell as many as three people about it. When you have a negative experience you will tell an average of thirty people about it.
You could also be seeing experienced MMO players not enjoying the way that D&D works in the sense that classes are simply not intended to be "balanced" the way most MMO's are. Demanding overall changes for the PvP experience isn't particularly logical unless one demands some sort of leveled playing field for a different kind of "dueling PvP" experience. The game is about PvE with PvP as an added bonus for those who want it.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Comments
Classes can be perfectly balanced while sticking to base 4e class types. They just need to add another striker class asap (Archer Ranger soon) so people can better understand how the class types work in this game. Lots of GW2 and WoW players don't understand how it's supposed to work here it seems. Every class doesn't do everything equally. Get your homogenization loving nonsense out of my game.
I understand what you're saying. The concept of class balance in MMOs has a long history. Heck, we played other games with damage meters to gauge a player's effectiveness. I was one of those players.
This isn't those MMOs.
Balance has no meaning in solo play. In group play, the other 4 players should welcome high single target damage. It's not a damage competition. However, PvP raises some issues. I cannot visualize how a game based on DnD 4e can have a balance PvP element without level dps. However, levelizing dps deviates from the basic concept of roles. I wonder if this dilemma has generated spirited debates among the developers.
It will be interesting to see how Cryptic addresses this problem.
Cleric : Has high vitality, has a supporter role, does the least damage.
Fighter (Or a Warrior w/e): Has balanced offensive/defensive ratio can be the tanks etc.
Wizard: Has good evasion, does a nice deal of damage to multiple mobs and a damage supporter
Rouges: Has high evasion, does the highest DPS, sneaky bishes, dies from few hits if taken.
Mostly the roles are like these if im not mistaken. They are meant to assasinate before anyone can do anything. I didnt play D&D that much so I dunno the basics of the game at all but It should be like this.. Sorry If I'm mistaken.
Rogues already have the survivability of snowballs in hell at high level PvE unless they are well played.
From the ones that I have seen, they have shown people playing poorly. When a CW tries to Leroy Jenkins a rogue, the CW is going to become a pincushion.
Really? The devs, you know..the ones who made the game and know more than you about it, have stated that the GWF IS an AoE defender/striker hybrid. Your opinion on what it is is wrong. Every single one of your posts is so full of arrogant and snide comments, reading them makes me nauseous. THE ROGUE IS THE ONLY STRIKER CLASS! How many **** times do people have to explain this to you?
In one statement it is fine that TRs can 1v3 because the opponents lack skill. In the other statement it is fine that TRs can tank because some lack skill to survive.
I'm not saying TRs are necessarily too strong, but your statements kind of go against each other.
I played a Rogue and have first hand experience. I've been at high levels of WoW arena PvP on several characters. I've had high rated BG ratings on several characters. I was one of the best healers in my Rift PvP guild when I played. Plus playing some PvP in pretty much every other MMO made since 1999. With that experience I can tell you that 1v1 I had a pretty good chance at killing anyone but this game nor most MMO's are balanced for 1v1 PvP. Being that Rogue is the only true dps class in the game right now it makes sense that they win most 1v1's. Using WoW pvp as a reference how often would you say a Holy Priest or Resto Shaman beats a Rogue in a 1v1 fight? Basically never unless the Rogue is a moron. Every class in Neverwinter besides rogue is basically a healer or tank by WoW standards. There's no other DPS class to counter the rogue in 1v1 fights as of yet. When Archer Ranger and Scourge Warlock get released it will be a different story.
I've seen these videos too. I watched THREE people attacking a TANK (GF) with his shield up while a Rogue one by one killed all 3 of them. The entire time none of them turned around to hit the rogue 1 time. They all just focused the tank. Do you REALLY think rogues are OP cause he 3v1'd 3 people that have absolutely ZERO idea how to play video games? Show me a video where a Rogue 3v1's people that play as good or better than my 70 year old Grandmother and then I'll believe you that it's ridiculous how OP those crazy rogues are.
You people are somethin else man...
WoW, Now TR are tanks in PvP. What this world is coming to... Really if TR is a pain so much for some people matter well those people scrap Neverwinter and play something else. At the end this game is for the masses not for a few.
But I love to see the video of a TR tanking.
in one statement TR's need to be played well because they aren't tanks. In the other statement a non-striker attacks a striker as though the former is a striker and is shredded for it. There is no contradiction here.
Because honestly, PvP is the only place where a class can be "overpowered" at the moment. Unless it gets to the point where a 5 TR group can tear through endgame bosses in seconds (while taking next to no damage because of the speed of the encounter), when it would normally take a normal group loadout several minutes (coughPWIcough), their power in PvE doesn't really matter.
Exactly my point. As long as PvE group content isn't dominated by them (which it won't be), then PvP is the only balancing they MAY need. And it is definitely possible to balance PvP without effecting PvE, the CW's control durations have shown that.
Also in Rock Paper Scissors, I always use Rock. Scissors is fine but paper needs a nerf.
That was sarcasm btw. Cleric can heal. Rogue can do great single target damage. Wizzy and GWF can do great AOE damage, and the GF can umm... Block.
Honestly the Cleric and the GF are a bit UP from what I see, while the Rogue could use more control options.
Thanks for the heads up. Going to go with Wizzy most likely then.
ALSO I was in a PvP match with a cleric, and the guy actually healed his team mates, I'm unable to do ANYTHING like this. NERF.
While we are on the topic, I was sneaking up on this CW 1 on 1, and the guy manages to stun lock me and then knock me back like halfway across the map. I couldn't even touch him! HOW IS THIS FAIR OMG NERF PLZ GOD.
you people are all silly.
Strange you wouldn't mention fighter. Just saying!
*whistles away*
As for their ranged at-will being stronger than the two ranged classes' at-wills? TR=DPS, DC and CW=Heals/CC/Support. Point being, just because they are ranged, doesn't automatically mean that their ranged attacks should be more powerful, since they are not ranged DPS. If it ends up being stronger than the at-wills of the Archer Ranger or Warlock (I'm assuming that one will be a dps too?), then you definitely have a point, but until such time, no.
Nerf the Guardian because I was wailing on one and they were just shrugging off all the damage. When I hit something, I want to remove more than a sliver of health dammit!
Nerf the Great-Weapon Fighter because then maybe the gods will finally take pity on the poor things and make them decent once more.
Cleric is a debuff/buff class. Healing is for rubes.
If you think rogues are OP, you suck/can't play class right/don't understand/are stupid...
Pretty obvious there is something amiss in Neverwinter, unless I subscribe to the theory that every single person that thinks rogue is much stronger than the other classes is simply an ignorant fool that simply sucks at video games.
Just a thought: When everyone else has to adjust/build specifically to counter the same class, maybe it means that said class is just plain down too dominate. Don't hear much about rogues adjusting/building to counter any other class...
People get defensive when someone yells NERF THIS GUY
And rightly so. DPS classes always, always, always get this kind of treatment in the forums, regardless of the balancing disadvantages of the class; people see those big numbers on the screen, or get blindsided in PvP, and think whoa, this is unfair. I felt kind of overwhelmed as a TR when I got my booty handed to me, at distance, by a CW. I got stun-locked and he just burned me down before I could close on him. Unfair!
The truth was: he saw me coming from a good long way, I didn't have a refresh on stealth, and he pwned me. If I'd seen him first and stealthed... different outcome, probably. Unless of course he had a friend nearby, of any class. 2 vs 1 of any two classes against a rogue and that's a dead TR or a retreating TR.
My point is: all a TR does is that one trick, there's no other options. We're squishy, we can't CC, we can't tank, we have poor damage mitigation. You know who I got zero kills in PvP against? Guardian fighters. It takes so long to hurt them, by the time they get to 3/4th health, someone else from their team has shown up to assist, and then we have only two options: flee or die. You want to know how to frustrate rogues in PvP? Travel with a buddy.
Please don't call for nerfs to the TR, we die a lot already. It can be frustrating to get jumped from stealth and killed, I realize, just like it was frustrating for me to get ranged to death... but I'm not calling for a nerf to CW. That's what they do. I have a mechanic in place to beat them, I just didn't use it, and so it is with almost everyone else against a TR.
Or you're simply seeing the 3/30 marketing rule in action. When you have a positive experience you might tell as many as three people about it. When you have a negative experience you will tell an average of thirty people about it.
You could also be seeing experienced MMO players not enjoying the way that D&D works in the sense that classes are simply not intended to be "balanced" the way most MMO's are. Demanding overall changes for the PvP experience isn't particularly logical unless one demands some sort of leveled playing field for a different kind of "dueling PvP" experience. The game is about PvE with PvP as an added bonus for those who want it.