Thanks for the support. It sucks that the thread got derailed but I'm glad most of us were at least able to see eye to eye to some extent in the end, so hopefully it won't be as much of an issue in PvP related topics in the future.
One positive thing I read or thought was implied in other posts was posible uses of the foundry for pvp. I have read previously that the devs hope to allow pvp maps to be made through the foundry, but had wondered how players would be able to "queue" for them. However, using them as maps to facilitate organized matches between premade teams seems to be a perfect fit. I hope there is other functionality as well of course, but atm the possibilities of foundry-made pvp maps seem staggering.
One positive thing I read or thought was implied in other posts was posible uses of the foundry for pvp. I have read previously that the devs hope to allow pvp maps to be made through the foundry, but had wondered how players would be able to "queue" for them. However, using them as maps to facilitate organized matches between premade teams seems to be a perfect fit. I hope there is other functionality as well of course, but atm the possibilities of foundry-made pvp maps seem staggering.
They know we want, They agree. In the making! Hopefully not like LoL and getting spectator mode and recording. Hey, they did spectator mode very, very well tho. Quality> quantity.
There is a difference between overpowered and broken. I have no problems with (lets say TR) being overpowered. I could beat them on my DC and GWF no problem. (I made sure I was geared, pots,etc) Broken is another thing where I cannot do anything against them or I don't know how to counter their abilities.
Another issue is the question of, is 5 TR better than 4 TR, 1 DC, or 3 TR, 1 CW, 1 DC, or 2 TR, 1 CW, 2 DC, etc. I really hope they keep with the "roles" area. Thinking of League of legends again, where the current meta is 1 top, 1 AP mid, 1 jungle, 2 bot (ADC, Support) I would love them to keep those roles. Why? I have a theory this would work since everyone would love to do everything.
0
Options
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited April 2013
I don't know the answer jkaplan92,
Make threads and discuss things. Clutter up the forums. Show interest in those topics.
I don't know why they chose this approach but they did.
Remember, though, this is Dungeons and Dragons: Neverwinter.
This isn't a run of the mill MMO. In most MMO's I feel that only half of the player base participate in PvP. I promise you most people I become friends with despise MMO PvP as much as me so they're not rare or hard to find. I could argue they are the majority just as easily as you say you are the majority.
The number of people who aren't interested in PvP goes way up in a D&D game, though. Take some time to look at some topics on the matter you'll find plenty of people who like you, love PvP in MMO's post they don't feel PvP should be in this game.
You'll find a different crowd here, for sure. There will be MMO aspects and even D&D has the subset of people who PvP but a large majority of those who are here because of the D&D title either detest PvP or will only dabble in it.
And stating they're a vocal minority is pretty far from the truth.
That being said Cryptic will support PvP.
But again, at this time I think the best way to support PvP is to flush out the dynamic combat before focusing on the shiny awards.
I agree with many of the OP's comments. -For example, despite all it's other nyerking downsides, one thing that the MMO Aion did well was to have a leaderboard for PVP....and a strong carrot, -in that if you were in the top xx positions you actually gained some powers. Would love to see something like that personally. That being said.....I do love what they've done to the game thus far.
I personally didnt play the game yet. but i have an idea. ~just my suggestion pls no flame C:~
it came from the game dragon nest it is also a action rpg and instance base.
the pvp system there has options, and there are many modes.
and the compensation option is there solution for OP classes in PVE to balance in PVP where they can test there skills.
the compensation system works like this in pvp matches if the compensation is on. Each Classes have a set amount of hp and dmg.
Example. CW has 40k hp and they do 120%dmg in skills. and DC had 50khp and have 90%dmg and so on.
And the items are no effect on this mode.. it all comes down to skills build and the player ability.
what you think?
im not saying cryptic had to copy what they did in dragon nest.
but the pvp there is so competitive and had a lot of tourney and plus the PVE there was great..
I personally didnt play the game yet. but i have an idea. ~just my suggestion pls no flame C:~
it came from the game dragon nest it is also a action rpg and instance base.
the pvp system there has options, and there are many modes.
and the compensation option is there solution for OP classes in PVE to balance in PVP where they can test there skills.
the compensation system works like this in pvp matches if the compensation is on. Each Classes have a set amount of hp and dmg.
Example. CW has 40k hp and they do 120%dmg in skills. and DC had 50khp and have 90%dmg and so on.
And the items are no effect on this mode.. it all comes down to skills build and the player ability.
what you think?
im not saying cryptic had to copy what they did in dragon nest.
but the pvp there is so competitive and had a lot of tourney and plus the PVE there was great..
i hope this game improve~ more power!
The PVP (and the PVE story) in that game is awesome. I would love to see gear normalized pvp like that in every game, so that the focus is on getting skilled rather than getting geared.
However, it looks like NW has the gear-based system, so working within that parameter, I hope the devs can minimize the item scaling somehow so that for example a level-capped player in "rank6" gear cannot take on a whole group in "rank 1" gear etc. That's the main worry I have about pvp- the classes seem pretty balanced from what I can tell, although it could be different at level cap.
The PVP (and the PVE story) in that game is awesome. I would love to see gear normalized pvp like that in every game, so that the focus is on getting skilled rather than getting geared.
However, it looks like NW has the gear-based system, so working within that parameter, I hope the devs can minimize the item scaling somehow so that for example a level-capped player in "rank6" gear cannot take on a whole group in "rank 1" gear etc. That's the main worry I have about pvp- the classes seem pretty balanced from what I can tell, although it could be different at level cap.
this is why you do NOT scale a game's PvE environment from PvP results.... it's the other way around.
pvp with normalized gear suck. Must have gear tiers however the disparity should be minimized.
Well everyone has an opinion. I think pvp with gear gap is less skill based and fun than gear-normalized pvp.
But gear-based pvp can either be a complete joke like Tera BG before the equalized bgs and Rift's Tier8 vs Tier1 geared players, or something more moderate, that actually I haven't seen in any gear-based pvp game; but I'm hoping the devs can work some magic because the combat system in this game really suits pvp and the base of the pvp game they have atm is excellent.
Edit:actullay I have seen something more moderate-Rift's pvp before level-cap was excellent.
Well everyone has an opinion. I think pvp with gear gap is less skill based and fun than gear-normalized pvp.
I'm torn on this, actually. In a gear-based game, essentially disabling equipment in PvP is a little dull, breaks immersion and makes it feel like an impersonal shooter. Also, if there was a ranking system, then higher rated players would only meet opponents who have the same PvP gear (assuming PvP gear is the best choice), which for practical purposes means that everyone has the same stuff. This was certainly the case in 2200+ arena matches in WoW (starting at around 2000), with occasional exceptions (specific trinkets and weapons from hard mode raids, or legendaries).
On the other hand, it is very discouraging for new players or characters to start out in PvP when others are already geared up. Getting owned for 30+ hours before you even have a chance to overcome the gear disadvantage isn't fun. WoW, Rift, SW:TOR all had (and still have) that problem. Not only is it not fun, but you are also a liability for your team.
Edit:actullay I have seen something more moderate-Rift's pvp before level-cap was excellent.
The problem with low level PvP in Rift was the class balance, though. Class balance got better at max level, but then the PvP gear issue kicked in. I took a break from Rift and came back later, and then low level PvP sucked also because they had implemented the option to lock XP gains, so you had fully geared "twinks" that one-shot anyone who was in leveling gear. Same as in WoW low level PvP before Cataclysm, and then heirloom items became the killer.
Though it's probably too easy to blame it on the gear. What's needed is better match-making or a rating system so that a fresh level 60 isn't thrown in a game with people who are already geared up. WoW tried that at some point (2007'ish), and it didn't work. They considered gear in bags and the bank too, but the issue was that queue times exploded. So people whined about having to wait too long to get into games. Then Blizzard dropped that again and people whined about getting steamrolled.
Hmm, spontaneous idea: PvP gear for rent! Players could (for gold, which needs more uses anyway) obtain temporary PvP weapons and armor pieces, until they have earned enough points/whatever to get their own PvP gear. That would address the issue while at the same time keeping the sense of progression intact.
i wonder why no one ever screams for skill based pve.
No epic gear to wear, no fancy armor to show off, no excitement and anticipation of wielding yr recently acquired legendary sword against the next epic dragon or evil god. Hey, you win with SKILL! You feel boring right? There is no fun. You wonder why the heck are you even playing an MMO. Its the same for pvp players. We want that kind of fun also.
There has to be some sort of meaningful progression or gear tiers to retain that fun and mmo feel. However the Gear>skill factor should be minimized.
I don't know the answer jkaplan92,
Make threads and discuss things. Clutter up the forums. Show interest in those topics.
I don't know why they chose this approach but they did.
Remember, though, this is Dungeons and Dragons: Neverwinter.
This isn't a run of the mill MMO. In most MMO's I feel that only half of the player base participate in PvP. I promise you most people I become friends with despise MMO PvP as much as me so they're not rare or hard to find. I could argue they are the majority just as easily as you say you are the majority.
The number of people who aren't interested in PvP goes way up in a D&D game, though. Take some time to look at some topics on the matter you'll find plenty of people who like you, love PvP in MMO's post they don't feel PvP should be in this game.
You'll find a different crowd here, for sure. There will be MMO aspects and even D&D has the subset of people who PvP but a large majority of those who are here because of the D&D title either detest PvP or will only dabble in it.
And stating they're a vocal minority is pretty far from the truth.
That being said Cryptic will support PvP.
But again, at this time I think the best way to support PvP is to flush out the dynamic combat before focusing on the shiny awards.
If I gave the impression that I think PvPers are the majority I didn't mean that at all. Vocal minority was probably the wrong term to use in my last post. To be more clear, I think that people who are more likely to be "PvPers" in this game are those who have been playing MMOs for a long time but probably haven't played as much dungeons and dragons. They're the people approaching this game as an MMO, not as dungeons and dragons, and their interest in this game really has nothing to do with dungeons and dragons as an IP. I would classify myself as part of this group. I think that generally these players are less passionate about the game (although I'm not) because they don't have an attachment to the IP, its just another MMO in a long line of mostly disappointments, and they will try it, judge it, and leave or stay. That group of players is not small, but it is not the majority. I think D&D players are the majority RIGHT NOW, but I do think that MMO players in general is the larger market, and the market that this game could attract with the features I suggested as well as many others. I don't think that this group of players is well represented on this forum, they are undoubtedly the minority at this stage, but as I said they aren't as passionate as D&D fans, so they are less likely to be active forum contributors.
D&D players are here to stay. The core game is great, the foundry allows for some really amazing content, and it lets them create the campaigns they loved from pen and paper. MMO-veterans with no D&D background, however, are very much not here to stay. These players are going to judge this game quickly and harshly and once they judge it many of them will leave permanently and will not consider coming back even when improvements are made, this is just the way this industry is and has been for the past 5 or so years it seems. It may not matter to most D&D players if these players left, in fact many would probably like it if they did, but for Cryptic I think its important that those who are interested in this game continue playing, tell their friends, and grow the playerbase, and I think to accomplish that improvements need to be made to this game that may not be the forefront of these forums, they aren't the kind of things pen and paper veterans ask for or care about, but that doesn't mean they aren't critically important, and I'm not saying this because I want them, I do, but because I really think they're what this game needs to grow a solid playerbase thats larger than just D&D veterans, and I really enjoy this game and want to see it succeed. I think it has tons of potential and it would be a shame if it didn't become the kind of game I think it can be.
0
Options
leissesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I'm a PnP D&D players for 10 years and a MMORPG player for ~15 years.
I love D&D and I love MMORPGs and that's why I want NW to be a great game in both PvP and PvE.
I don't like the idea of different equipment for PvP and PvE, but since that's how the game is I'll need to live with that. I don't like it because I want to work hard in ONE character and making different gear for each PvP and PvE makes me feels like playing two characters.
I want to work hard on PvE killing tough monsters so I can become strong enough to be on TOP ranked PvP (yes, I need a ranking system and I want to be on top, although I won't since I have less time for games now #sad) and fight the greatest PvE challenges the DEVs made for players.
I support every word @cetra07 place at his last post. That was just perfect and I hope the PVP haters understand that.
i wonder why no one ever screams for skill based pve.
No epic gear to wear, no fancy armor to show off, no excitement and anticipation of wielding yr recently acquired legendary sword against the next epic dragon or evil god. Hey, you win with SKILL! You feel boring right? There is no fun. You wonder why the heck are you even playing an MMO. Its the same for pvp players. We want that kind of fun also.
There has to be some sort of meaningful progression or gear tiers to retain that fun and mmo feel. However the Gear>skill factor should be minimized.
Well that pretty much sums up Dark Souls actually, haha.
But you have touched on a very good point, and one which brings me to the opposite conclusion to yours.
Let me start with saying what I think we both agree with:
1)It is more fun if you get some kind of material reward for playing-like better gear, awesome mounts, special housing, sex slaves etc. 2) It is not good to have an extreme gear differences in pvp. I think on those points we agree right?
Now here is my pve analogy of what happens in most gear-based mmo pvp: New players get to slug it out against Ashardalon (this bad-*** red dragon) in their underpants armed with a butter knife for hundreds of hours of feeling totally ineffectual, bringing the rest of your team down, and just getting your *** handed to you over and over. At some point in time you too will become as mighty as Ash. Then when you have become mighty, you will pit your great strength against naked kobolds armed with toothpicks.
Does this system make sense to you? I should hope not- but thats what the pvp in most mmos offer.
You see PVE is inherently normalized. You don't go fight Ashardalon at level 1- you fight the kobolds first, then the wererats, then the bandits, then the orcs, etc. It wouldn't be fun otherwise.
In pvp sure new gear and other toys are a great goal to aim toward, but if everyone is lumped together in pvp the rewards shouldn't have a large impact on the relative power of players in pvp, because just as in pve, it is not fun to have to spend hours being lame and ineffectual. Maybe rewards can be pve gear, or skins, or a personal entourage etc- I mean the possibilities are endless. But from a purely gameplay perspective I have not seen any good argument for having the massive gear-gaps seen in past battleground-type mmo pvp.
For all the things people hate about SWTOR, I actually think the way they handled PvP gearing was the best approach any MMO has taken. Prior to playing guild wars 2 I thought "Okay, no gear differences = perfectly skill based pvp = awesome!" But in reality its not awesome, it becomes boring. People need that progression especially when there arent ranking systems, there aren't tournaments, etc.
The way SWTOR approached this problem was to offer several tiers of PvP gear as much games have, but to normalize gear so that everyone in a PvP match was within about 10% of eachother. As someone who was one of the first to get the top tier PvP gear I can tell you that it still felt very powerful and was certainly worth the effort to get, but at the same time I could still potentially die to people in no pvp gear at all, and I didn't just plow through the enemy team like a wrecking ball as a geared player would in games like world of warcraft. I think this is the perfect system becasue it allows you to still offer progression to players, but to also make it so that people don't feel totally overwhelmed and helpless against players with better gear. I will admit almost nobody could come close to 1v1ing me without the same gear, but in 2v1 situations undergeared players were still a serious threat.
Real competitive PvP has always been a niche market in the MMO scene. I'm sure Cryptic should throw those types a bone or two, but I can't see them seriously trying to spend a great deal of developmental effort on it - especially in a D&D game.
Personally I'm all for them giving the PvPers whatever they want, so long as it doesn't impact the PvE part of the game (which, sadly, it almost always does).
For all the things people hate about SWTOR, I actually think the way they handled PvP gearing was the best approach any MMO has taken. Prior to playing guild wars 2 I thought "Okay, no gear differences = perfectly skill based pvp = awesome!" But in reality its not awesome, it becomes boring. People need that progression especially when there arent ranking systems, there aren't tournaments, etc.
The way SWTOR approached this problem was to offer several tiers of PvP gear as much games have, but to normalize gear so that everyone in a PvP match was within about 10% of eachother. As someone who was one of the first to get the top tier PvP gear I can tell you that it still felt very powerful and was certainly worth the effort to get, but at the same time I could still potentially die to people in no pvp gear at all, and I didn't just plow through the enemy team like a wrecking ball as a geared player would in games like world of warcraft. I think this is the perfect system becasue it allows you to still offer progression to players, but to also make it so that people don't feel totally overwhelmed and helpless against players with better gear. I will admit almost nobody could come close to 1v1ing me without the same gear, but in 2v1 situations undergeared players were still a serious threat.
Wow, that sounds quite good. I hope the devs can come up with some kind of similar magic here.
I'm torn on this, actually. In a gear-based game, essentially disabling equipment in PvP is a little dull, breaks immersion and makes it feel like an impersonal shooter. Also, if there was a ranking system, then higher rated players would only meet opponents who have the same PvP gear (assuming PvP gear is the best choice), which for practical purposes means that everyone has the same stuff. This was certainly the case in 2200+ arena matches in WoW (starting at around 2000), with occasional exceptions (specific trinkets and weapons from hard mode raids, or legendaries).
They tried arena 3v3 in Tera with ranking and it was a disaster. The system kept widening the point cap if it couldn't find people ranked as high and you still ended up with low ranked versus high ranked groups. A game's PVP arena has to be super popular to use ranking systems. Eventually everyone stopped playing unless they already had the top gear and the "lolstompyou" class composition.
Then they made some class changes to fix the classes for 3v3 and broke PVP in general (flinching, CC can be evaded and duration reduced on gear but not resisted in any way, if they hit you with it, you are CC-ed)... flinching on auto-attack is an interrupt and it's just downright bloody annoying... and ruined PVE with bosses now interrupting charge-up skills etc.
STILL the arena is not gathering much interest.
IF they didn't have the score system that matches at larger and larger ranges, you'd just simply not have anyone to play against you. Requiring fixed 3 party members instead of randoms also made it worse and less interesting.
Ranking does not fix gear discrepancies. Also most gear based games require you to do Battlegrounds of some sort where you are ravaged by anyone one tier or higher in gear and your only ways of scoring wins is piling 3 against 1 or playing a very very bad pvp player.
They should have gear-less battlegrounds or arenas to grind for gear and then more competitive maps and arenas that are ranked to get slightly better gear. Slightly better.
In Tera VM geared players will cut through you if you are in the original gear that you get from battlegrounds (fraywind) as if you were not even wearing armor. And you barely make a dent in their health. One of them can one-shot a priest at 70k health with no issues.
No ranking can fix that nonsense.
0
Options
zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well everyone has an opinion. I think pvp with gear gap is less skill based and fun than gear-normalized pvp.
But gear-based pvp can either be a complete joke like Tera BG before the equalized bgs and Rift's Tier8 vs Tier1 geared players, or something more moderate, that actually I haven't seen in any gear-based pvp game; but I'm hoping the devs can work some magic because the combat system in this game really suits pvp and the base of the pvp game they have atm is excellent.
Edit:actullay I have seen something more moderate-Rift's pvp before level-cap was excellent.
I've been torn on the subject of normalized gear. I think there is a balance that needs to be struck between the two. On one side, in MMOs you need something to work towards outside of cosmetics or boredom sets in. On the other side, I remember winning a 1v5 in Rift on my warrior. That amount of gear disparity will ruin things.
I really don't know the solution, but I don't want to see either extreme.
Matchmaking. This is not only for progression, but also to reduce the rage quitting by "less skilled" players. I should never be matched up with someone who is newer to gaming. It is discouraging for them and boring for me. Since CS:GO added ranks, I have never heard anyone say anything stupid or childish about theirs or their enemy's matchmaking ranks. So, from my experience it has never caused drama or idiots to yell about how great they are, only to save newbies from annihilation and pros from boredom.
Custom matches and custom maps. Please for the love of God. Most successful PvP and multiplayer shooter games that really take off do so because of a huge influx of content generated by users. I've been interested in the Foundry, but I know I would really take advantage if I could make PvP maps.
Tournaments are huge. It sets a date that a load of players will jump on to play/watch matches. This can also have Astral Diamond betting on your favorite teams! They don't have to start out as huge lan tournaments, even in game matches with in game rewards would do wonders for the PvP community.
This! all of this! We have the stalker, leader, tank, cc, roles! It fits perfectly!
We have the paragons that we can switch between. we can have a evolving meta-game! One that is contently broken by using different powers knowing what your opponents are and what you have!
This man is absolutely right. Most MMOs that I've seen recently have failed because they underestimate the re-kindled interest of players once they get bored of the game. This is why the "Open Beta" thing worries me. I can see why they are doing it, so they have a chance to build out the game while players can enjoy it.. but if there is not enough suitable content to keep interest, players will leave and most of them will not return-- even if the added content is genuinely great.
This mistake has been made every single time in the last few MMOs that i've played. The PvP community comes in optimistic about the game, holds out for a short while patiently awaiting progression/ranking features... then they leave the game, the game adds said features and the player base doesn't return because they've already washed their hands of it. Hopefully this game doesn't fall victim to the same vicious cycle.
Comments
Dwight
One positive thing I read or thought was implied in other posts was posible uses of the foundry for pvp. I have read previously that the devs hope to allow pvp maps to be made through the foundry, but had wondered how players would be able to "queue" for them. However, using them as maps to facilitate organized matches between premade teams seems to be a perfect fit. I hope there is other functionality as well of course, but atm the possibilities of foundry-made pvp maps seem staggering.
They know we want, They agree. In the making! Hopefully not like LoL and getting spectator mode and recording. Hey, they did spectator mode very, very well tho. Quality> quantity.
There is a difference between overpowered and broken. I have no problems with (lets say TR) being overpowered. I could beat them on my DC and GWF no problem. (I made sure I was geared, pots,etc) Broken is another thing where I cannot do anything against them or I don't know how to counter their abilities.
Another issue is the question of, is 5 TR better than 4 TR, 1 DC, or 3 TR, 1 CW, 1 DC, or 2 TR, 1 CW, 2 DC, etc. I really hope they keep with the "roles" area. Thinking of League of legends again, where the current meta is 1 top, 1 AP mid, 1 jungle, 2 bot (ADC, Support) I would love them to keep those roles. Why? I have a theory this would work since everyone would love to do everything.
Make threads and discuss things. Clutter up the forums. Show interest in those topics.
I don't know why they chose this approach but they did.
Remember, though, this is Dungeons and Dragons: Neverwinter.
This isn't a run of the mill MMO. In most MMO's I feel that only half of the player base participate in PvP. I promise you most people I become friends with despise MMO PvP as much as me so they're not rare or hard to find. I could argue they are the majority just as easily as you say you are the majority.
The number of people who aren't interested in PvP goes way up in a D&D game, though. Take some time to look at some topics on the matter you'll find plenty of people who like you, love PvP in MMO's post they don't feel PvP should be in this game.
You'll find a different crowd here, for sure. There will be MMO aspects and even D&D has the subset of people who PvP but a large majority of those who are here because of the D&D title either detest PvP or will only dabble in it.
And stating they're a vocal minority is pretty far from the truth.
That being said Cryptic will support PvP.
But again, at this time I think the best way to support PvP is to flush out the dynamic combat before focusing on the shiny awards.
it came from the game dragon nest it is also a action rpg and instance base.
the pvp system there has options, and there are many modes.
and the compensation option is there solution for OP classes in PVE to balance in PVP where they can test there skills.
the compensation system works like this in pvp matches if the compensation is on. Each Classes have a set amount of hp and dmg.
Example. CW has 40k hp and they do 120%dmg in skills. and DC had 50khp and have 90%dmg and so on.
And the items are no effect on this mode.. it all comes down to skills build and the player ability.
what you think?
im not saying cryptic had to copy what they did in dragon nest.
but the pvp there is so competitive and had a lot of tourney and plus the PVE there was great..
i hope this game improve~ more power!
The PVP (and the PVE story) in that game is awesome. I would love to see gear normalized pvp like that in every game, so that the focus is on getting skilled rather than getting geared.
However, it looks like NW has the gear-based system, so working within that parameter, I hope the devs can minimize the item scaling somehow so that for example a level-capped player in "rank6" gear cannot take on a whole group in "rank 1" gear etc. That's the main worry I have about pvp- the classes seem pretty balanced from what I can tell, although it could be different at level cap.
this is why you do NOT scale a game's PvE environment from PvP results.... it's the other way around.
Well everyone has an opinion. I think pvp with gear gap is less skill based and fun than gear-normalized pvp.
But gear-based pvp can either be a complete joke like Tera BG before the equalized bgs and Rift's Tier8 vs Tier1 geared players, or something more moderate, that actually I haven't seen in any gear-based pvp game; but I'm hoping the devs can work some magic because the combat system in this game really suits pvp and the base of the pvp game they have atm is excellent.
Edit:actullay I have seen something more moderate-Rift's pvp before level-cap was excellent.
I'm torn on this, actually. In a gear-based game, essentially disabling equipment in PvP is a little dull, breaks immersion and makes it feel like an impersonal shooter. Also, if there was a ranking system, then higher rated players would only meet opponents who have the same PvP gear (assuming PvP gear is the best choice), which for practical purposes means that everyone has the same stuff. This was certainly the case in 2200+ arena matches in WoW (starting at around 2000), with occasional exceptions (specific trinkets and weapons from hard mode raids, or legendaries).
On the other hand, it is very discouraging for new players or characters to start out in PvP when others are already geared up. Getting owned for 30+ hours before you even have a chance to overcome the gear disadvantage isn't fun. WoW, Rift, SW:TOR all had (and still have) that problem. Not only is it not fun, but you are also a liability for your team.
The problem with low level PvP in Rift was the class balance, though. Class balance got better at max level, but then the PvP gear issue kicked in. I took a break from Rift and came back later, and then low level PvP sucked also because they had implemented the option to lock XP gains, so you had fully geared "twinks" that one-shot anyone who was in leveling gear. Same as in WoW low level PvP before Cataclysm, and then heirloom items became the killer.
Though it's probably too easy to blame it on the gear. What's needed is better match-making or a rating system so that a fresh level 60 isn't thrown in a game with people who are already geared up. WoW tried that at some point (2007'ish), and it didn't work. They considered gear in bags and the bank too, but the issue was that queue times exploded. So people whined about having to wait too long to get into games. Then Blizzard dropped that again and people whined about getting steamrolled.
Hmm, spontaneous idea: PvP gear for rent! Players could (for gold, which needs more uses anyway) obtain temporary PvP weapons and armor pieces, until they have earned enough points/whatever to get their own PvP gear. That would address the issue while at the same time keeping the sense of progression intact.
No epic gear to wear, no fancy armor to show off, no excitement and anticipation of wielding yr recently acquired legendary sword against the next epic dragon or evil god. Hey, you win with SKILL! You feel boring right? There is no fun. You wonder why the heck are you even playing an MMO. Its the same for pvp players. We want that kind of fun also.
There has to be some sort of meaningful progression or gear tiers to retain that fun and mmo feel. However the Gear>skill factor should be minimized.
If I gave the impression that I think PvPers are the majority I didn't mean that at all. Vocal minority was probably the wrong term to use in my last post. To be more clear, I think that people who are more likely to be "PvPers" in this game are those who have been playing MMOs for a long time but probably haven't played as much dungeons and dragons. They're the people approaching this game as an MMO, not as dungeons and dragons, and their interest in this game really has nothing to do with dungeons and dragons as an IP. I would classify myself as part of this group. I think that generally these players are less passionate about the game (although I'm not) because they don't have an attachment to the IP, its just another MMO in a long line of mostly disappointments, and they will try it, judge it, and leave or stay. That group of players is not small, but it is not the majority. I think D&D players are the majority RIGHT NOW, but I do think that MMO players in general is the larger market, and the market that this game could attract with the features I suggested as well as many others. I don't think that this group of players is well represented on this forum, they are undoubtedly the minority at this stage, but as I said they aren't as passionate as D&D fans, so they are less likely to be active forum contributors.
D&D players are here to stay. The core game is great, the foundry allows for some really amazing content, and it lets them create the campaigns they loved from pen and paper. MMO-veterans with no D&D background, however, are very much not here to stay. These players are going to judge this game quickly and harshly and once they judge it many of them will leave permanently and will not consider coming back even when improvements are made, this is just the way this industry is and has been for the past 5 or so years it seems. It may not matter to most D&D players if these players left, in fact many would probably like it if they did, but for Cryptic I think its important that those who are interested in this game continue playing, tell their friends, and grow the playerbase, and I think to accomplish that improvements need to be made to this game that may not be the forefront of these forums, they aren't the kind of things pen and paper veterans ask for or care about, but that doesn't mean they aren't critically important, and I'm not saying this because I want them, I do, but because I really think they're what this game needs to grow a solid playerbase thats larger than just D&D veterans, and I really enjoy this game and want to see it succeed. I think it has tons of potential and it would be a shame if it didn't become the kind of game I think it can be.
I love D&D and I love MMORPGs and that's why I want NW to be a great game in both PvP and PvE.
I don't like the idea of different equipment for PvP and PvE, but since that's how the game is I'll need to live with that. I don't like it because I want to work hard in ONE character and making different gear for each PvP and PvE makes me feels like playing two characters.
I want to work hard on PvE killing tough monsters so I can become strong enough to be on TOP ranked PvP (yes, I need a ranking system and I want to be on top, although I won't since I have less time for games now #sad) and fight the greatest PvE challenges the DEVs made for players.
I support every word @cetra07 place at his last post. That was just perfect and I hope the PVP haters understand that.
Well that pretty much sums up Dark Souls actually, haha.
But you have touched on a very good point, and one which brings me to the opposite conclusion to yours.
Let me start with saying what I think we both agree with:
1)It is more fun if you get some kind of material reward for playing-like better gear, awesome mounts, special housing, sex slaves etc. 2) It is not good to have an extreme gear differences in pvp. I think on those points we agree right?
Now here is my pve analogy of what happens in most gear-based mmo pvp: New players get to slug it out against Ashardalon (this bad-*** red dragon) in their underpants armed with a butter knife for hundreds of hours of feeling totally ineffectual, bringing the rest of your team down, and just getting your *** handed to you over and over. At some point in time you too will become as mighty as Ash. Then when you have become mighty, you will pit your great strength against naked kobolds armed with toothpicks.
Does this system make sense to you? I should hope not- but thats what the pvp in most mmos offer.
You see PVE is inherently normalized. You don't go fight Ashardalon at level 1- you fight the kobolds first, then the wererats, then the bandits, then the orcs, etc. It wouldn't be fun otherwise.
In pvp sure new gear and other toys are a great goal to aim toward, but if everyone is lumped together in pvp the rewards shouldn't have a large impact on the relative power of players in pvp, because just as in pve, it is not fun to have to spend hours being lame and ineffectual. Maybe rewards can be pve gear, or skins, or a personal entourage etc- I mean the possibilities are endless. But from a purely gameplay perspective I have not seen any good argument for having the massive gear-gaps seen in past battleground-type mmo pvp.
The way SWTOR approached this problem was to offer several tiers of PvP gear as much games have, but to normalize gear so that everyone in a PvP match was within about 10% of eachother. As someone who was one of the first to get the top tier PvP gear I can tell you that it still felt very powerful and was certainly worth the effort to get, but at the same time I could still potentially die to people in no pvp gear at all, and I didn't just plow through the enemy team like a wrecking ball as a geared player would in games like world of warcraft. I think this is the perfect system becasue it allows you to still offer progression to players, but to also make it so that people don't feel totally overwhelmed and helpless against players with better gear. I will admit almost nobody could come close to 1v1ing me without the same gear, but in 2v1 situations undergeared players were still a serious threat.
Personally I'm all for them giving the PvPers whatever they want, so long as it doesn't impact the PvE part of the game (which, sadly, it almost always does).
Problem is it becomes extremly boring not having anything to work for, no goals and no character progression.
Its just a tedious grind without rewards.
In DaoC you atleast had realm ranks, statbonuses per rank, buyable realm abilities etc to work for.
MMOs are about the rewards, story to me is just a sidedish.
http://www.worldsfactory.net/giochi/pc/neverwinter-intervista-esclusiva
I wanna see this in game :-)
Wow, that sounds quite good. I hope the devs can come up with some kind of similar magic here.
Then they made some class changes to fix the classes for 3v3 and broke PVP in general (flinching, CC can be evaded and duration reduced on gear but not resisted in any way, if they hit you with it, you are CC-ed)... flinching on auto-attack is an interrupt and it's just downright bloody annoying... and ruined PVE with bosses now interrupting charge-up skills etc.
STILL the arena is not gathering much interest.
IF they didn't have the score system that matches at larger and larger ranges, you'd just simply not have anyone to play against you. Requiring fixed 3 party members instead of randoms also made it worse and less interesting.
Ranking does not fix gear discrepancies. Also most gear based games require you to do Battlegrounds of some sort where you are ravaged by anyone one tier or higher in gear and your only ways of scoring wins is piling 3 against 1 or playing a very very bad pvp player.
They should have gear-less battlegrounds or arenas to grind for gear and then more competitive maps and arenas that are ranked to get slightly better gear. Slightly better.
In Tera VM geared players will cut through you if you are in the original gear that you get from battlegrounds (fraywind) as if you were not even wearing armor. And you barely make a dent in their health. One of them can one-shot a priest at 70k health with no issues.
No ranking can fix that nonsense.
I've been torn on the subject of normalized gear. I think there is a balance that needs to be struck between the two. On one side, in MMOs you need something to work towards outside of cosmetics or boredom sets in. On the other side, I remember winning a 1v5 in Rift on my warrior. That amount of gear disparity will ruin things.
I really don't know the solution, but I don't want to see either extreme.
I wouldn't mind seeing different modes. Something a GWF would be good at! Flag runners!
Matchmaking. This is not only for progression, but also to reduce the rage quitting by "less skilled" players. I should never be matched up with someone who is newer to gaming. It is discouraging for them and boring for me. Since CS:GO added ranks, I have never heard anyone say anything stupid or childish about theirs or their enemy's matchmaking ranks. So, from my experience it has never caused drama or idiots to yell about how great they are, only to save newbies from annihilation and pros from boredom.
Custom matches and custom maps. Please for the love of God. Most successful PvP and multiplayer shooter games that really take off do so because of a huge influx of content generated by users. I've been interested in the Foundry, but I know I would really take advantage if I could make PvP maps.
Tournaments are huge. It sets a date that a load of players will jump on to play/watch matches. This can also have Astral Diamond betting on your favorite teams! They don't have to start out as huge lan tournaments, even in game matches with in game rewards would do wonders for the PvP community.
This! all of this! We have the stalker, leader, tank, cc, roles! It fits perfectly!
We have the paragons that we can switch between. we can have a evolving meta-game! One that is contently broken by using different powers knowing what your opponents are and what you have!
This mistake has been made every single time in the last few MMOs that i've played. The PvP community comes in optimistic about the game, holds out for a short while patiently awaiting progression/ranking features... then they leave the game, the game adds said features and the player base doesn't return because they've already washed their hands of it. Hopefully this game doesn't fall victim to the same vicious cycle.
Dorks with Tranquilizers