They tried arena 3v3 in Tera with ranking and it was a disaster. The system kept widening the point cap if it couldn't find people ranked as high and you still ended up with low ranked versus high ranked groups. A game's PVP arena has to be super popular to use ranking systems. Eventually everyone stopped playing unless they already had the top gear and the "lolstompyou" class composition.
Then they made some class changes to fix the classes for 3v3 and broke PVP in general (flinching, CC can be evaded and duration reduced on gear but not resisted in any way, if they hit you with it, you are CC-ed)... flinching on auto-attack is an interrupt and it's just downright bloody annoying... and ruined PVE with bosses now interrupting charge-up skills etc.
STILL the arena is not gathering much interest.
IF they didn't have the score system that matches at larger and larger ranges, you'd just simply not have anyone to play against you. Requiring fixed 3 party members instead of randoms also made it worse and less interesting.
Ranking does not fix gear discrepancies. Also most gear based games require you to do Battlegrounds of some sort where you are ravaged by anyone one tier or higher in gear and your only ways of scoring wins is piling 3 against 1 or playing a very very bad pvp player.
They should have gear-less battlegrounds or arenas to grind for gear and then more competitive maps and arenas that are ranked to get slightly better gear. Slightly better.
In Tera VM geared players will cut through you if you are in the original gear that you get from battlegrounds (fraywind) as if you were not even wearing armor. And you barely make a dent in their health. One of them can one-shot a priest at 70k health with no issues.
No ranking can fix that nonsense.
Tera is a HEAVILY gear-based game. There are additional reasons that 3v3s failed, but that is the main reason imo.
Games don't have to be like that. Tera uses a logarithmic attack vs. defense system, which is why good gear is so broken. Games with linear damage scales won't have nearly the same problems. I'm not sure how Neverwinter works, but hopefully it's not logarithmic.
Even so, there are other ways to balance PvP even in heavily gear-based games. Tightening the gap between good gear and top gear is one obvious way.
BTW, VM geared zerkers can one-shot pretty much anything regardless of their gear. I'm pretty sure VM zerkers can even one-shot VM lancers if they get lucky.
Tera is a HEAVILY gear-based game. There are additional reasons that 3v3s failed, but that is the main reason imo.
Games don't have to be like that. Tera uses a logarithmic attack vs. defense system, which is why good gear is so broken. Games with linear damage scales won't have nearly the same problems. I'm not sure how Neverwinter works, but hopefully it's not logarithmic.
Even so, there are other ways to balance PvP even in heavily gear-based games. Tightening the gap between good gear and top gear is one obvious way.
BTW, VM geared zerkers can one-shot pretty much anything regardless of their gear. I'm pretty sure VM zerkers can even one-shot VM lancers if they get lucky.
Good question, I was thinking about that myself. Obviously, not all logarithmic scales are the same, so some will be worse than others in terms of gear disparity. I feel like EQ was probably something resembling a linear scale, not that I think an EQ combat system is a good solution.
In Tera, a class that crits for 1 million at level 60 can crit for something like 500 million on level 1 mobs. You can imagine how that system might produce insane disparities in gear effectiveness at max level.
edit: Linear stat increases on gear are likely the cause of the problem in games like TERA. Linear stat increases + log damage = gear-based game.
edit again: More importantly, I'm not a game designer or a mathematician, I have no idea what kind of system would actually work, I'm just speculating here is all.
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streamofsolaceMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I don't understand how logarithmic power growth is a problem for competition in PvP, it seems like it would be exactly the opposite.
Where the bonuses on gear increase linearly, a logarithmic power curve would see power grow ever more slowly as the bonuses increased; reducing the effect of having significantly better gear than an opponent. Not that this would lead to a fair match, the people with exceptional gear are also likely both more experienced and more skilled than the people with atrocious gear, it would just lead to a fairer match while also providing a progression path.
The problems come with linear power growth, where increased bonuses on gear always have the same rate of return. Do you mean linear growth?
Of course, exponential growth would be an ever worse problem, but I don't think any modern MMO implements it. For a time, Warriors in World of Warcraft Vanilla benefited from this, until Fury warriors became widely known the best DPS in the game while having the bonus of being able to respec and equip different gear to become tanks in progression-centric groups.
This! all of this! We have the stalker, leader, tank, cc, roles! It fits perfectly!
We have the paragons that we can switch between. we can have a evolving meta-game! One that is contently broken by using different powers knowing what your opponents are and what you have!
(Striker, Leader, Defender, Controller)
But yes, I agree with that video 100%. Balance is boring, and usually not required. Too many people think they are the worlds best PVPer, so if they are defeated in combat it must be because something is broken and needs to be nerfed or "balanced".
I don't understand how logarithmic power growth is a problem for competition in PvP, it seems like it would be exactly the opposite.
Where the bonuses on gear increase linearly, a logarithmic power curve would see power grow ever more slowly as the bonuses increased; reducing the effect of having significantly better gear than an opponent. Not that this would lead to a fair match, the people with exceptional gear are also likely both more experienced and more skilled than the people with atrocious gear, it would just lead to a fairer match while also providing a progression path.
The problems come with linear power growth, where increased bonuses on gear always have the same rate of return. Do you mean linear growth?
Of course, exponential growth would be an ever worse problem, but I don't think any modern MMO implements it. For a time, Warriors in World of Warcraft Vanilla benefited from this, until Fury warriors became widely known the best DPS in the game while having the bonus of being able to respec and equip different gear to become tanks in progression-centric groups.
This combat system uses stats and ratings. If calculations are logarithmic that would make sense because that means diminishing returns on both stats and secondary ratings as they apply to the combat formula.
In addition to that there can always be hard caps in place so a player can't achieve 100% block or 95% crit. With DR that shouldn't really happen though.
i didnt feel like reading through all pages of this post, so could someone please explain to me why i am getting the lowest scores in pvp yet none on my team are dying and im the only healer?
Fully support all of the OPs sentiment. Just look how ridiculously popular competitive/esports games are these days. Just look at the viewers on twitch. So much exposure for the game. All I can say right now, but I'll revisit the thread with a more detailed write up, just supporting it right now!
Pvp is very well structured. Could use incentives sure. But.you can earn good gear from pvp. The pvp system / balance is better than my last two recent games, gw2 and Tera.
PvP is all about excellent team work in this game. A well structured team will win, I feel no balance at the current time is needed.
What PvP needs to be successful is to NOT drive the PvE.
If you have been following NW for awhile you should realize that it is not a PvP centric model. It is driven by WotC D&D content. It has PvP because it is expected by the current generation of gamers. But to be honest I doubt they spent all that much time on it when put against the Never Winter as a world concept.
There are other games out there that have a heavy PvP element. I like the idea that they put focus on the World more than the epeen competition.
To be true, the PvP is what maintains interest, especially once the characters are maxed out. But I do not like the mindset that PvP should drive the bus.
It was said once that a deal that has everyone feeling like they could have gotten more is a fair deal.
Hopefully there will be compromises that satisfy most of the users.
the Book Binding series by @HarbingerDrum ----> Help Defeat Lolth's Minions
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Comments
Games don't have to be like that. Tera uses a logarithmic attack vs. defense system, which is why good gear is so broken. Games with linear damage scales won't have nearly the same problems. I'm not sure how Neverwinter works, but hopefully it's not logarithmic.
Even so, there are other ways to balance PvP even in heavily gear-based games. Tightening the gap between good gear and top gear is one obvious way.
BTW, VM geared zerkers can one-shot pretty much anything regardless of their gear. I'm pretty sure VM zerkers can even one-shot VM lancers if they get lucky.
What MMO uses linear combat equations?
In Tera, a class that crits for 1 million at level 60 can crit for something like 500 million on level 1 mobs. You can imagine how that system might produce insane disparities in gear effectiveness at max level.
edit: Linear stat increases on gear are likely the cause of the problem in games like TERA. Linear stat increases + log damage = gear-based game.
edit again: More importantly, I'm not a game designer or a mathematician, I have no idea what kind of system would actually work, I'm just speculating here is all.
Where the bonuses on gear increase linearly, a logarithmic power curve would see power grow ever more slowly as the bonuses increased; reducing the effect of having significantly better gear than an opponent. Not that this would lead to a fair match, the people with exceptional gear are also likely both more experienced and more skilled than the people with atrocious gear, it would just lead to a fairer match while also providing a progression path.
The problems come with linear power growth, where increased bonuses on gear always have the same rate of return. Do you mean linear growth?
Of course, exponential growth would be an ever worse problem, but I don't think any modern MMO implements it. For a time, Warriors in World of Warcraft Vanilla benefited from this, until Fury warriors became widely known the best DPS in the game while having the bonus of being able to respec and equip different gear to become tanks in progression-centric groups.
(Striker, Leader, Defender, Controller)
But yes, I agree with that video 100%. Balance is boring, and usually not required. Too many people think they are the worlds best PVPer, so if they are defeated in combat it must be because something is broken and needs to be nerfed or "balanced".
This combat system uses stats and ratings. If calculations are logarithmic that would make sense because that means diminishing returns on both stats and secondary ratings as they apply to the combat formula.
In addition to that there can always be hard caps in place so a player can't achieve 100% block or 95% crit. With DR that shouldn't really happen though.
PvP is all about excellent team work in this game. A well structured team will win, I feel no balance at the current time is needed.
If you have been following NW for awhile you should realize that it is not a PvP centric model. It is driven by WotC D&D content. It has PvP because it is expected by the current generation of gamers. But to be honest I doubt they spent all that much time on it when put against the Never Winter as a world concept.
There are other games out there that have a heavy PvP element. I like the idea that they put focus on the World more than the epeen competition.
To be true, the PvP is what maintains interest, especially once the characters are maxed out. But I do not like the mindset that PvP should drive the bus.
It was said once that a deal that has everyone feeling like they could have gotten more is a fair deal.
Hopefully there will be compromises that satisfy most of the users.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Comments to -> the Book Binding