Have patience and let them build the game first, truthfully.
Well as I said in my OP i don't think that works. I think there needs to be a few features there early on or the community will die and never come back as it did in GW2 and so many other games. I think the core game is solid. I said that in my OP as well. Combat feels great, I think end game PvE will be pretty solid, etc. I see no reason why they shouldn't develop a ranking system for PvP shortly after launch. I don't think its overly difficult to code and I think PvE is relatively far along.
@ghoward, I agree with you. I disliked how guild wars 2 separated PvP entirely from PvE and removed progression. How neverwinter will handle it remains to be seen. I didn't check out PvP gear over the BWEs but essentially it comes down to "PvP stats" WoW has resilience, other games have their versions. PvP stats separate PvE from PvP and its somewhat necessary in most games. If this game doesn't have raiding, however, I think it could be fine to not have a PvP stat because as long as PvP gear is difficult enough to get, it wouldn't really be used to progress through PvE.
Also I agree with changing abilities specfically for PvP and PvE, I think thats the way to go because as others have said its always a concern that PvP balancing will mess with a classes PvE balance.... It's best to just separate changes based on the type of gameplay they occur in. Yes, it creates some weird discrepancies in play but in the long run its just better.
I too have been playing for a while, PvP in all matter of games where possible. This game, although I know it will never happen, should not have PvP. I really enjoy PvP and the reason I say this is because I fear that, based on what I have seen so far, PvP whiners will break this game with their nerf calls. It has happened in many other MMOs and is bound to happen here. Players need to learn their classes and strategies to kill the enemy, not ask the devs to do it for them... If the devs listen to the PvP community in this game PVE will suffer greatly and I would be saddened to see that happen.
Well as I said in my OP i don't think that works. I think there needs to be a few features there early on or the community will die and never come back as it did in GW2 and so many other games. I think the core game is solid. I said that in my OP as well. Combat feels great, I think end game PvE will be pretty solid, etc. I see no reason why they shouldn't develop a ranking system for PvP shortly after launch. I don't think its overly difficult to code and I think PvE is relatively far along.
@ghoward, I agree with you. I disliked how guild wars 2 separated PvP entirely from PvE and removed progression. How neverwinter will handle it remains to be seen. I didn't check out PvP gear over the BWEs but essentially it comes down to "PvP stats" WoW has resilience, other games have their versions. PvP stats separate PvE from PvP and its somewhat necessary in most games. If this game doesn't have raiding, however, I think it could be fine to not have a PvP stat because as long as PvP gear is difficult enough to get, it wouldn't really be used to progress through PvE.
Also I agree with changing abilities specfically for PvP and PvE, I think thats the way to go because as others have said its always a concern that PvP balancing will mess with a classes PvE balance.... It's best to just separate changes based on the type of gameplay they occur in. Yes, it creates some weird discrepancies in play but in the long run its just better.
the community wont die just because pvp is being held back. If you scan the forums you will notice those that want pvp are in a huge minority here and if pvp is held back until content for the pve world is fleshed out, then those players were not here for the true MMO experience to begin with.
Core game is not solid as we seen between Beta Weekends with all the nerfs and changes in abilities. Not even all the classes have been implemented yet. There is still over 10 classes, maybe more, to be introduced. We are a very far way away from Core game.
the community wont die just because pvp is being held back. If you scan the forums you will notice those that want pvp are in a huge minority here and if pvp is held back until content for the pve world is fleshed out, then those players were not here for the true MMO experience to begin with.
Core game is not solid as we seen between Beta Weekends with all the nerfs and changes in abilities. Not even all the classes have been implemented yet. There is still over 10 classes, maybe more, to be introduced. We are a very far way away from Core game.
Sorry I meant the PvP community, not the larger community. This game will survive with or without PvP. That said, the launch of an MMO is so important these days. If a game launches poorly regardless of the changes the developer makes the chances of it becoming popular are extremely low and this is espcially true of PvP. The game needs to maintain its PvP playerbase from the beginning. I will grant you that that playerbase is small, but if the game loses even those few players the chance of many PvPers coming to the game down the road will be very slim. PvPers need to enjoy the game initially and continue to support it and advertise it to their friends from the very beginning. That might sound like a tall order but I don't really think it is. The biggest issue is just a lack of a leaderboard, solving that could be HUGE. Adding private matches and hosting tournaments could lead to huge growth in my opinion.
As for the core game, I don't think all of those classes are needed for the basis of this game to be good. Bringing it to a basic level, I think most PvE players will be content with what the game has to offer right now for several months to come at least. End game dungeons could be amazing, having played the dungeons at 50 they were honestly some of the best and most epic feeling dungeons I've played in any MMO. The classes they do have feel unique and are fun. Combat itself is great. I think the critical aspects of this game that are needed for it to survive are there. They will add new classes over time, new dungeons, and foundry content will obviously come by the boatload so for PvE focused players I think there should be no issues. Thats what I mean to say when I said the core is there. I think it's more important that PvP gets several of the features I listed than it is for cryptic to come out with 4 or 5 classes immediately. As long as they come out with a new class every 1-2 months and continue producing new dungeons I think people will be quite satisfied.
I too have been playing for a while, PvP in all matter of games where possible. This game, although I know it will never happen, should not have PvP. I really enjoy PvP and the reason I say this is because I fear that, based on what I have seen so far, PvP whiners will break this game with their nerf calls. It has happened in many other MMOs and is bound to happen here. Players need to learn their classes and strategies to kill the enemy, not ask the devs to do it for them... If the devs listen to the PvP community in this game PVE will suffer greatly and I would be saddened to see that happen.
I understand your worry but i think the solution is just to separate balance changes rather than trying to universally balance classes. This is an approach that guild wars 2 took that worked quite well and it does have its drawbacks but I think being able to avoid this conflict far outweighs the minor issues it creates.
I understand your worry but i think the solution is just to separate balance changes rather than trying to universally balance classes. This is an approach that guild wars 2 took that worked quite well and it does have its drawbacks but I think being able to avoid this conflict far outweighs the minor issues it creates.
In fact, gw2 didn't, it was gw1 that did so, and let's admit, 5 million playerbase isn't any small number.
to do that basically the dev's would have to go back to square one in regards to the pvp aspect of the game.
To do what? Separate abilities? I don't mean design new abilities for each class. They would have the same abilities, the only difference is that the numbers behind the effects are changed when the player enters PvP. As far as I know thats already in the game. Control Wizard CC is a much shorter duration in PvP than it is in PvE so I don't see why they won't apply the changes to other classes. I think the nerfs to rogue were broader than just PvP. Rogue is a very strong soloist and is especially strong at low levels so its no surprise to me that they got so much feedback calling for nerfs, and frankly I think rogue did need the nerfs it got, but any further nerfs might be too much.
the community wont die just because pvp is being held back. If you scan the forums you will notice those that want pvp are in a huge minority here and if pvp is held back until content for the pve world is fleshed out, then those players were not here for the true MMO experience to begin with.
Core game is not solid as we seen between Beta Weekends with all the nerfs and changes in abilities. Not even all the classes have been implemented yet. There is still over 10 classes, maybe more, to be introduced. We are a very far way away from Core game.
Don't you remember what happened to D3 when they didn't add pvp at first?
Btw, i think the best way to get a healthy playerbase is to fix the mistakes other games have. Examples: D3 not having pvp at first, GW2 having pvp completely separated from pve yet with the same balancing, Many MMOs (swtor, wow, others) not having a LFG tool... And the list continues, it's those mistakes that make people say: This is a bad copy of wow...... So fixing on this game what other industries haven't fixed in theirs might be the generic point of why players stay or leave.
Don't you remember what happened to D3 when they didn't add pvp at first?
Btw, i think the best way to get a healthy playerbase is to fix the mistakes other games have. Examples: D3 not having pvp at first, GW2 having pvp completely separated from pve yet with the same balancing, Many MMOs (swtor, wow, others) not having a LFG tool... And the list continues, it's those mistakes that make people say: This is a bad copy of wow...... So fixing on this game what other industries haven't fixed in theirs might be the generic point of why players stay or leave.
Can we please try to avoid PvP vs PvE. We've already seen where that debate leads lets just leave it be and keep discussing how to improve PvP going forward... Anything else is just going to lead to stupid arguments that can't reach a positive conclusion.
Can we please try to avoid PvP vs PvE. We've already seen where that debate leads lets just leave it be and keep discussing how to improve PvP going forward... Anything else is just going to lead to stupid arguments that can't reach a positive conclusion.
I can, though that means i can't post until more suggestions come to my mind.....
I don't see a problem with having both and as I've said a hundred times in this thread if you aren't going to contribute something constructive please don't feel the need to post. This game is meant to make money and as such its meant to appeal to more than one type of player. That's something I think its safe to assume everyone should try to get used to. Your perfect PvE paradise will not exist as long as more money can be made appealing to more people. How is slaying a virtual dragon somehow objectively beter than gaining virtual rank? Can't tell if you're actually trying to make that argument or trolling me...
I've been playing mmos since 2004, though never even made a WoW account and never will, just so we're clear there. Anyway, in the past 9 years of playing these online games with people, i've watched many many friends leave games over frustration with the constant nerfs to make the PvPers stop crying. Based on that experience, i'd say an mmo that refused to offer PvP would probably attract a lot of those players back to the mmo world, knowing they won't be nerfed to make the PvPers happy. Not to mention, in two of the three games i've spent time in, the PvP was the minority anyway, so it wouldn't be a big loss like some of you seem to think.
I've been playing mmos since 2004, though never even made a WoW account and never will, just so we're clear there. Anyway, in the past 9 years of playing these online games with people, i've watched many many friends leave games over frustration with the constant nerfs to make the PvPers stop crying. Based on that experience, i'd say an mmo that refused to offer PvP would probably attract a lot of those players back to the mmo world, knowing they won't be nerfed to make the PvPers happy. Not to mention, in two of the three games i've spent time in, the PvP was the minority anyway, so it wouldn't be a big loss like some of you seem to think.
I've acknowledged that that is an issue in previous posts and responded with a solution that Cryptic has already used and I assume will continue to use. That is splitting ability balance between PvP and PvE. CC in PvP on the control wizard lasts about 1/3 as long as it does in PvE and theres no reason other changes can't be made in the same way so that PvP changes do not affect the PvE balance of a class unless a universal change is needed.
I have two cents to offer here.. The taverns across the board should be open pvp areas to just go nuts in, such as duels. A good tavern brawl is very DnD
As far as balancing, i agree with a seperation of skills.. limit the times in pvp, etc.. that seems very fair, vs altering the whole system to satisfy a few and blowing it all up.
I've been playing mmos since 2004, though never even made a WoW account and never will, just so we're clear there. Anyway, in the past 9 years of playing these online games with people, i've watched many many friends leave games over frustration with the constant nerfs to make the PvPers stop crying. Based on that experience, i'd say an mmo that refused to offer PvP would probably attract a lot of those players back to the mmo world, knowing they won't be nerfed to make the PvPers happy. Not to mention, in two of the three games i've spent time in, the PvP was the minority anyway, so it wouldn't be a big loss like some of you seem to think.
I think you haven't played GW1 in all that time, and that is fine, but the system it had for avoiding that issue was very good imho.
Just making copies of every pve ability on pvp and not to modify both, but just one.
A good example is the warrior ability "For Great Justice!" in that game, in pve, it doubled the amount of adrenaline (a resource that charged up with each attack) you could gain, while in pvp it added 1 per attack, to forbid the stacking of such effects. It's a simple change in some programming languages, and idk about the others, but for C i'll just write a not so perfect example here.
//****************************************
//initial comments, instructions and such things.... *
//****************************************
#include <everything_related_to_base_abilities>
int PvX = GetInt(VarRelatedToSideInWhichYouAreNow);
void nameforgenericability(int iDamage, float fDuration)
{
//here go the definitions for the effect, idk how to program that.
if{PvX == 1} //This is for pvp
{
iDamage = 1; //for 1 point of damage per tick
fDuration = 12.0; //for 12 second duration, taking into account that the file we included before defines the seconds per tick.
}
else // pve side
{
iDamage = 2; //for the ability to be
fDuration = 15.0; //more powerful in pve than pvp, thus not requiring it to be universally nerfed
}
}
I've been playing mmos since 2004, though never even made a WoW account and never will, just so we're clear there. Anyway, in the past 9 years of playing these online games with people, i've watched many many friends leave games over frustration with the constant nerfs to make the PvPers stop crying. Based on that experience, i'd say an mmo that refused to offer PvP would probably attract a lot of those players back to the mmo world, knowing they won't be nerfed to make the PvPers happy. Not to mention, in two of the three games i've spent time in, the PvP was the minority anyway, so it wouldn't be a big loss like some of you seem to think.
It's not a PvP issue, usually. It's an issue of some classes being better than others.
In non-competitive and non-challenging PvE content, that one class is vastly stronger than another at a primary role that they share isn't a problem; the content is supposed to be easy for people that don't want a challenge, so just make it until the worst classes can complete the content.
In competitive or challenging PvE content (think the most recent raid content), content is usually balanced in such at way as to be harder. Now, if one class is vastly superior to another, the inferior class just doesn't get to raid.
The problem is similar in PvP, where it is strictly competitive; a vastly inferior class will lose in unorganized PvP and not be invited to organized PvP.
In both challenging PvE and PvP, a player who is highly skilled can overcome his class inferiority to be better than an unskilled player of the superior class; the disparity between the classes determines how much better a player he has to be.
The importance of balance comes up any time the content isn't entirely trivial. If you are arguing that all content should be trivial, I think that the game will lose a lot of players. Hard content gives something for bad or un-geared players to aspire to, and for good and geared players to conquer. If you didn't play WOW then take SWTOR (all MMOs are essentially the same): Most people playing weren't in top raiding (16-man nightmare) or PvP groups (the ones in full Battlemaster when the rest of the server was stepping into PvP), but a lot of them would like to be, and they will keep playing and working towards either creating their own or joining an existing one. That is the kind of thing an MMO needs to survive long-term, challenging content that people can strive to complete. If everything is trivial, then developers can never put out enough content to keep people interested.
TL;DR version, Fix/balance core game play before adding fluff to ensure high "fun" retention factor, and if adding fluff, add it to enhance MMOness not for "Esports"/"competitiveness".
Hi guys. I've been playing video games competitively for about 6 years now. I started in RTS playing dawn of war 2 first and later starcraft 2 at a high level, however I've always been passionate about MMOs and especially PvP in MMOs. I played for team paradigm and more recently alpha collective in guild wars 2. These were two of the top if not the top two competitive teams in that game when I played. Not trying to toot my own horn here, but I do think that my opinion is somewhat relevant in regards to PvP in neverwinter.
Minor point, but you've picked the wrong game/s to base your argument on and it shows in your suggestions. Guild Wars 2 is an abomination of traditional Tab targeting MMO's with Action based MMO's that was brutally welded together taking certain elements of each into one (The wrong elements of each I might add), of which "hype" was then heaped onto to it thanks to an efficient marketing campaign which the "Esports" Bandwagon decided to jump on. (Huge numbers playing =/= good game design)
Also, I want to add that "Esports" and MMO-3PS/FPS/RTS/RPG's do not mix well if at all, Red5 studios, Firefall's recent foray into a MMO3PS with "Esports"-PvP - with a laughable projection of $1Million in prizes has turned PvP of that game (MMO3PS) into an abomination of MMO3PSMOBAS variant which as ridiculous as the acronym has become is as ridiculous as their design philosophy behind that monumental retardedness of that decision.
The reason why I'm saying this, is to point out that there is a clear distinction between the rule sets of traditional MMOs-PvP and the games that are or claim to be "Esports"-PvP (GW2), features found in one do not necessary translate well into the other or the reasons for a feature might not be similar either.
The games you should instead be drawing extensive PvP experience from are (in terms of core gameplay and generally less ****ty features), DC Universe Online (DCO), TERA, SMITE, Dragon's Nest etc... I'm sure I've missed out a number of other possible games, but essentially anything that follows DCO or TERA. DCO particularly is an almost perfect match in terms of combat/skill design. Limited active skills (5), Action point/Supercharge abilities, almost similar combat dynamics.
1. Ranking systems/incentives for competitive play. PvP games these days desperately need to incorporate some kind of ranking system. Be it a simple elo rating system, or a more complex league system like what exists in SC2 and more recently league of legends, there needs to be some kind of way for players to gauge their skill versus others, and similarly as players improve they need to have concrete rewards for their improvement. Someone is going to post saying "You just want people to be able to compare epeens, this game doesn't need that." Well, for better or worse people want to compare epeens. It may make you uncomfortable, it may be shallow, but EVERY succesful competitively played game right now has some kind of rating system without exception. You simply cannot have a succesful PvP game without ratings. Yes, PvP may not be the main selling point of this game, but in my opinion it would be a shame to let the potential this game has go to waste and to see PvP being played by a niche group of players in a year. Look at guild wars 2. The game came out too early and featured no ranking system and no way to arrange matches between specific teams... The game started off with a large PvP playerbase and a huge twitch viewership... Now at least 75% of those players have left the game and twitch viewership is down to 300 or less a day. Cryptic I urge you not to make the mistake that Arenanet made.... Do not fool yourself into thinking you have all the time in the world to improve PvP. You don't... Arenanet added leaderboards several months after release... it was too late, people had moved on.
Eve Online has no such rating/ranking systems (killboards do not count), yet continues to grow from strength to strength and still remains one of the purest forms of Competitive PvP, where anything goes. "Esports" is not "competitive" PvP, but rather entertainment for the masses & Legitimisation(Ego) PvP. True competition is where you will do anything to win, spy on your opponents forums, crash their TS server, buy out a mercenary force, plant moles in their fleet etc..etc..etc.. only Eve Online comes close. The inbuilt rule set for "Esports" as I've mention doesn't allow for this pure form of competition.
But, I digress.
Incentives for "competitive" PvP play is short sighted at best, instead there should incentives for PvP play as a whole, this is a very important distinction, PvP-play already has a limited population, further segregation into the even limited population of "competitive"-Pvp players will not bring about the success of PvP.
That said when giving out incentives for PvP-play, you have to take the "MMO" basis into account. Why I say this is simple, do you create a whole separate gear and reward system for PvP, (eg. PvP stats on PvP only gear, Arena only gear etc..) or do you thread the ever controversial line of keeping both PvE and PvP in line.
Segregation while the easy fix for balance is extremely detrimental to the "MMO" basis. While hard to quantify, its the feeling that there is no connection between PvPing or PvEing, let alone to the game world that NWO inhabits. That's not to say I want to see the rise of having to PvE to PvP or vice versa, that would be just as bad as segregating the two.
I'm borrowing an argument made else where, but I think it sums up my point nicely. (The underlined bit about rewards)
Most of all, there’s no “gateway drug” here. People won’t tend to cross over between the two realms, and as a result won’t increase their playtime and likelihood of retention, simply because the two game engines – PvP and PvE – aren’t related enough. Some people are die-hard one way or the other and nothing will matter. More, though, are in the middle, and they’ll PvP in some games and not others. This is an opportunity not to be missed!
Divide the modes up for balancing; divide them up for spoils if you must. Don’t divide them up thematically such that one experience completely ignores the other. If we can’t have titles (would be silly in this game,) hand out PvP-awards, Blood-spattered warpaints, cosmetic gun effects something. Give the PvE crowd a reason to check out PvP!
Which, ironically, brings us full circle – PvP’rs will avoid the game’s PvE experience until it’s unpredictable and suspenseful. PvE’rs will avoid the PvP experience until they can at least take a cosmetic reward home at the end of the day.
2. Allow for arranged matches. Mentioned this a bit in reference to guild wars 2, but there needs to be a way to arrange matches between two teams to foster scrimming and tournament play. This is another feature that was missing from guild wars 2 that effectively killed the PvP community within 3 months of launch.
I'm in favour for allowing arranged matches, but not for the reasons you listed, as I've mentioned above there is a clear distinction between a MMO and "Esports", arranged matches should foster and highlight the social aspect of a MMO. As you've mentioned in 3. the sense of can community comes alive from playing with well known groups, take for example before cross servers queues for WOW BGs PvP, fighting a Horde/Alliance guild on your server fostered a sense of rivalry in that server's community. That is what it should build on, not for the sake of scrimming or tournaments.
Again with GW2.... by your reasoning, WOW PvP should be long dead then, tell me how long did it take WOW to introduce arrange matches (A very long time). This just shows the utter limitations of the core gameplay features of GW2 and its failure to retain its player base and further serves to emphasise the need to focus on fine tuning the core game play mechanics before adding any "fluff"
3. Promote PvP and create tournaments. After the above feature is added the pvp community will need tournaments in order to promote viewership for the game, create fanbases for teams, and to make the PvP community feel alive. Players, whether competitive or not, enjoy being able to watch the best players compete, it makes the game feel alive and it inspires people to play and improve. It makes them feel like they have a reason to keep playing PvP instead of just to get the top honor rank or something of that nature. Eventually other organizations will sponsor tournaments, but initially it would be very helpful if cryptic could host their own with small monetary prizes or even zen/in game prizes.
Promote PvP, yes, create tournaments, no, rather not in the foreseeable future until balance issues have been settled and come on, the game has yet to be "officially released" calling for tournaments is rather premature.
I hate to say this, but I think you're missing the point. Promoting viewership is not the goal, but rather promoting actual players to play the game, be it PvP (hopefully) or not is and for the most part the people watching "tournaments" are the ones who are already either playing or PvPing, the wrong targets, this might help retention but there is a better way as I'll explain later. You're making one very big sweeping generalisation as to the perceived benefits of tournaments and why people play/ PvP and I say to you, instead of a tournament (and the benefits your sweep generalisation entails) being the reason why someone plays, how about having the basic core gameplay be "fun" and that being the retaining factor and not the rewards/tournaments. Sure all these "fluffs" can be added later, but your rationalisation for them being added now is wrong and mistimed.
First of all no game has launched with a PvP mindset... ever? There has never been an MMO that's focused on PvP, literally since perhaps daoc or I suppose you could argue warhammer but even that game had raiding. The only game I can even think of that I would consider "having a PvP mindset" is camelot unchained which obviously hasn't been released yet.
Eve Online.
Everything revolves around PvP. The game was built from PvP, the very price of a mineral required to build components that is then built into a ship that can be used for PvE or PvP revolves around the deaths brought from PvP. PvP drives the economy, its territories, its story.
Second of all, what games have even had successful launches since WoW? Swtor failed? Rift basically failed? Lotro failed. I'm not seeing the success you're pointing to here. I just listed three games that by and large emphasized PvE and all three could hardly be considered successful so what is your point? The only game that "found success" was WoW which has both diverse PvE and PvP...
How do you define success? Having the most subscribers? or continual growth?
Let's go with continual growth, wall street likes it, so why not.
Sounding like a broken record now, but if I must, Eve Online. It launched before WOW, and has been growing steadily ever since. WOW has seen its number of subscribers steadily decline.
Yes I love Eve Online, but I like NWO too. So don't ruin it with "fluff" till the core issues have been fixed.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Strawbyx sums up my feelings as well.
I really think adding PvP in the foundry will be very entertaining. I wouldn't mind a tournament night hosted by players with assistance from PW. This happened in Forge and was successful.
Can we get a PvP section where people who don't care to talk about PvP can just, stay out?
Sure!! And while we're at it, can we please agree that all PvP types in this game will absolutely not whine about class balance and therefore ruin gameplay for the PvE crowd with changes to AT's and powers?
While on that issue, I can't recall any MMO out there that has had a totally seperate PvP to PvE experience. In every case it happens, nerfs go across the board affecting both gameplay styles.
I'd go out on a limb to say that is probably the major gripe most non-PvP people have, and vice-verso, is that changes go across the board.
While I would love to see both game play styles get their chance to shine..I do heartily advocate that class or ability adjustments made for the sake of one particular play style DO NOT affect the other. Anything else is akin to me telling you to play my way and not yours. This is not a good thing, ever.
However, this would require (in my opinion only) a total separation of the two. A whole server just for PvP and one for PvE. At the current time, that is counter-productive. So it won't happen.
My main concern is premades or partial premades playing against groups of random players. Even though I used to run premades in WoW, back in the old PvP system and reached fairly high ranks, I got to experience this from the other side, too. It drove me right out of the game and caused a lot of seething frustration (partly due to poor behaviors like camping graveyards and dragging out games for the sole purpose of upsetting the already losing players).
I am all for playing with friends and competitive, challenging PvP action. Steamrolling randoms or getting steamrolled by premades however is neither competitive nor challenging.
Sure!! And while we're at it, can we please agree that all PvP types in this game will absolutely not whine about class balance and therefore ruin gameplay for the PvE crowd with changes to AT's and powers?
While on that issue, I can't recall any MMO out there that has had a totally seperate PvP to PvE experience. In every case it happens, nerfs go across the board affecting both gameplay styles.
I'd go out on a limb to say that is probably the major gripe most non-PvP people have, and vice-verso, is that changes go across the board.
While I would love to see both game play styles get their chance to shine..I do heartily advocate that class or ability adjustments made for the sake of one particular play style DO NOT affect the other. Anything else is akin to me telling you to play my way and not yours. This is not a good thing, ever.
However, this would require (in my opinion only) a total separation of the two. A whole server just for PvP and one for PvE. At the current time, that is counter-productive. So it won't happen.
As far as experience tells me, PvP servers are the worst that could happen to alts and new players alike, with people ganking people for the sake of upsetting them.
Have you even read my posts in this same thread about having separate abilities for PvP and PvE????
GW1 did it.
GW2 is starting to do it.
NWO already does it for control powers, why not for damage ones?
Comments
Well as I said in my OP i don't think that works. I think there needs to be a few features there early on or the community will die and never come back as it did in GW2 and so many other games. I think the core game is solid. I said that in my OP as well. Combat feels great, I think end game PvE will be pretty solid, etc. I see no reason why they shouldn't develop a ranking system for PvP shortly after launch. I don't think its overly difficult to code and I think PvE is relatively far along.
@ghoward, I agree with you. I disliked how guild wars 2 separated PvP entirely from PvE and removed progression. How neverwinter will handle it remains to be seen. I didn't check out PvP gear over the BWEs but essentially it comes down to "PvP stats" WoW has resilience, other games have their versions. PvP stats separate PvE from PvP and its somewhat necessary in most games. If this game doesn't have raiding, however, I think it could be fine to not have a PvP stat because as long as PvP gear is difficult enough to get, it wouldn't really be used to progress through PvE.
Also I agree with changing abilities specfically for PvP and PvE, I think thats the way to go because as others have said its always a concern that PvP balancing will mess with a classes PvE balance.... It's best to just separate changes based on the type of gameplay they occur in. Yes, it creates some weird discrepancies in play but in the long run its just better.
the community wont die just because pvp is being held back. If you scan the forums you will notice those that want pvp are in a huge minority here and if pvp is held back until content for the pve world is fleshed out, then those players were not here for the true MMO experience to begin with.
Core game is not solid as we seen between Beta Weekends with all the nerfs and changes in abilities. Not even all the classes have been implemented yet. There is still over 10 classes, maybe more, to be introduced. We are a very far way away from Core game.
Sorry I meant the PvP community, not the larger community. This game will survive with or without PvP. That said, the launch of an MMO is so important these days. If a game launches poorly regardless of the changes the developer makes the chances of it becoming popular are extremely low and this is espcially true of PvP. The game needs to maintain its PvP playerbase from the beginning. I will grant you that that playerbase is small, but if the game loses even those few players the chance of many PvPers coming to the game down the road will be very slim. PvPers need to enjoy the game initially and continue to support it and advertise it to their friends from the very beginning. That might sound like a tall order but I don't really think it is. The biggest issue is just a lack of a leaderboard, solving that could be HUGE. Adding private matches and hosting tournaments could lead to huge growth in my opinion.
As for the core game, I don't think all of those classes are needed for the basis of this game to be good. Bringing it to a basic level, I think most PvE players will be content with what the game has to offer right now for several months to come at least. End game dungeons could be amazing, having played the dungeons at 50 they were honestly some of the best and most epic feeling dungeons I've played in any MMO. The classes they do have feel unique and are fun. Combat itself is great. I think the critical aspects of this game that are needed for it to survive are there. They will add new classes over time, new dungeons, and foundry content will obviously come by the boatload so for PvE focused players I think there should be no issues. Thats what I mean to say when I said the core is there. I think it's more important that PvP gets several of the features I listed than it is for cryptic to come out with 4 or 5 classes immediately. As long as they come out with a new class every 1-2 months and continue producing new dungeons I think people will be quite satisfied.
I understand your worry but i think the solution is just to separate balance changes rather than trying to universally balance classes. This is an approach that guild wars 2 took that worked quite well and it does have its drawbacks but I think being able to avoid this conflict far outweighs the minor issues it creates.
To do what? Separate abilities? I don't mean design new abilities for each class. They would have the same abilities, the only difference is that the numbers behind the effects are changed when the player enters PvP. As far as I know thats already in the game. Control Wizard CC is a much shorter duration in PvP than it is in PvE so I don't see why they won't apply the changes to other classes. I think the nerfs to rogue were broader than just PvP. Rogue is a very strong soloist and is especially strong at low levels so its no surprise to me that they got so much feedback calling for nerfs, and frankly I think rogue did need the nerfs it got, but any further nerfs might be too much.
Don't you remember what happened to D3 when they didn't add pvp at first?
Btw, i think the best way to get a healthy playerbase is to fix the mistakes other games have. Examples: D3 not having pvp at first, GW2 having pvp completely separated from pve yet with the same balancing, Many MMOs (swtor, wow, others) not having a LFG tool... And the list continues, it's those mistakes that make people say: This is a bad copy of wow...... So fixing on this game what other industries haven't fixed in theirs might be the generic point of why players stay or leave.
To be fair D3 had a ton of issues beyond that.
Completely different style of game.
Well we've got 4 days til launch so gotta kill the time somehow
I've been playing mmos since 2004, though never even made a WoW account and never will, just so we're clear there. Anyway, in the past 9 years of playing these online games with people, i've watched many many friends leave games over frustration with the constant nerfs to make the PvPers stop crying. Based on that experience, i'd say an mmo that refused to offer PvP would probably attract a lot of those players back to the mmo world, knowing they won't be nerfed to make the PvPers happy. Not to mention, in two of the three games i've spent time in, the PvP was the minority anyway, so it wouldn't be a big loss like some of you seem to think.
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I've acknowledged that that is an issue in previous posts and responded with a solution that Cryptic has already used and I assume will continue to use. That is splitting ability balance between PvP and PvE. CC in PvP on the control wizard lasts about 1/3 as long as it does in PvE and theres no reason other changes can't be made in the same way so that PvP changes do not affect the PvE balance of a class unless a universal change is needed.
Best thing you've said all night...
the frustrations are mounting for everyone...
Even I starting to blur days together hoping I can make thursday come faster.
As far as balancing, i agree with a seperation of skills.. limit the times in pvp, etc.. that seems very fair, vs altering the whole system to satisfy a few and blowing it all up.
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Haha same here. Every game I play to try to kill time just feels boring since I started playing neverwinter.
I think you haven't played GW1 in all that time, and that is fine, but the system it had for avoiding that issue was very good imho.
Just making copies of every pve ability on pvp and not to modify both, but just one.
A good example is the warrior ability "For Great Justice!" in that game, in pve, it doubled the amount of adrenaline (a resource that charged up with each attack) you could gain, while in pvp it added 1 per attack, to forbid the stacking of such effects. It's a simple change in some programming languages, and idk about the others, but for C i'll just write a not so perfect example here.
//**************************************** //initial comments, instructions and such things.... * //**************************************** #include <everything_related_to_base_abilities> int PvX = GetInt(VarRelatedToSideInWhichYouAreNow); void nameforgenericability(int iDamage, float fDuration) { //here go the definitions for the effect, idk how to program that. if{PvX == 1} //This is for pvp { iDamage = 1; //for 1 point of damage per tick fDuration = 12.0; //for 12 second duration, taking into account that the file we included before defines the seconds per tick. } else // pve side { iDamage = 2; //for the ability to be fDuration = 15.0; //more powerful in pve than pvp, thus not requiring it to be universally nerfed } }Wow a perfect realization! I feel like having a group hug now, but ermmm... we can't forget about Ranncore now!!
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It's not a PvP issue, usually. It's an issue of some classes being better than others.
In non-competitive and non-challenging PvE content, that one class is vastly stronger than another at a primary role that they share isn't a problem; the content is supposed to be easy for people that don't want a challenge, so just make it until the worst classes can complete the content.
In competitive or challenging PvE content (think the most recent raid content), content is usually balanced in such at way as to be harder. Now, if one class is vastly superior to another, the inferior class just doesn't get to raid.
The problem is similar in PvP, where it is strictly competitive; a vastly inferior class will lose in unorganized PvP and not be invited to organized PvP.
In both challenging PvE and PvP, a player who is highly skilled can overcome his class inferiority to be better than an unskilled player of the superior class; the disparity between the classes determines how much better a player he has to be.
The importance of balance comes up any time the content isn't entirely trivial. If you are arguing that all content should be trivial, I think that the game will lose a lot of players. Hard content gives something for bad or un-geared players to aspire to, and for good and geared players to conquer. If you didn't play WOW then take SWTOR (all MMOs are essentially the same): Most people playing weren't in top raiding (16-man nightmare) or PvP groups (the ones in full Battlemaster when the rest of the server was stepping into PvP), but a lot of them would like to be, and they will keep playing and working towards either creating their own or joining an existing one. That is the kind of thing an MMO needs to survive long-term, challenging content that people can strive to complete. If everything is trivial, then developers can never put out enough content to keep people interested.
Minor point, but you've picked the wrong game/s to base your argument on and it shows in your suggestions. Guild Wars 2 is an abomination of traditional Tab targeting MMO's with Action based MMO's that was brutally welded together taking certain elements of each into one (The wrong elements of each I might add), of which "hype" was then heaped onto to it thanks to an efficient marketing campaign which the "Esports" Bandwagon decided to jump on. (Huge numbers playing =/= good game design)
Also, I want to add that "Esports" and MMO-3PS/FPS/RTS/RPG's do not mix well if at all, Red5 studios, Firefall's recent foray into a MMO3PS with "Esports"-PvP - with a laughable projection of $1Million in prizes has turned PvP of that game (MMO3PS) into an abomination of MMO3PSMOBAS variant which as ridiculous as the acronym has become is as ridiculous as their design philosophy behind that monumental retardedness of that decision.
The reason why I'm saying this, is to point out that there is a clear distinction between the rule sets of traditional MMOs-PvP and the games that are or claim to be "Esports"-PvP (GW2), features found in one do not necessary translate well into the other or the reasons for a feature might not be similar either.
The games you should instead be drawing extensive PvP experience from are (in terms of core gameplay and generally less ****ty features), DC Universe Online (DCO), TERA, SMITE, Dragon's Nest etc... I'm sure I've missed out a number of other possible games, but essentially anything that follows DCO or TERA. DCO particularly is an almost perfect match in terms of combat/skill design. Limited active skills (5), Action point/Supercharge abilities, almost similar combat dynamics.
Eve Online has no such rating/ranking systems (killboards do not count), yet continues to grow from strength to strength and still remains one of the purest forms of Competitive PvP, where anything goes. "Esports" is not "competitive" PvP, but rather entertainment for the masses & Legitimisation(Ego) PvP. True competition is where you will do anything to win, spy on your opponents forums, crash their TS server, buy out a mercenary force, plant moles in their fleet etc..etc..etc.. only Eve Online comes close. The inbuilt rule set for "Esports" as I've mention doesn't allow for this pure form of competition.
But, I digress.
Incentives for "competitive" PvP play is short sighted at best, instead there should incentives for PvP play as a whole, this is a very important distinction, PvP-play already has a limited population, further segregation into the even limited population of "competitive"-Pvp players will not bring about the success of PvP.
That said when giving out incentives for PvP-play, you have to take the "MMO" basis into account. Why I say this is simple, do you create a whole separate gear and reward system for PvP, (eg. PvP stats on PvP only gear, Arena only gear etc..) or do you thread the ever controversial line of keeping both PvE and PvP in line.
Segregation while the easy fix for balance is extremely detrimental to the "MMO" basis. While hard to quantify, its the feeling that there is no connection between PvPing or PvEing, let alone to the game world that NWO inhabits. That's not to say I want to see the rise of having to PvE to PvP or vice versa, that would be just as bad as segregating the two.
I'm borrowing an argument made else where, but I think it sums up my point nicely. (The underlined bit about rewards)
I'm in favour for allowing arranged matches, but not for the reasons you listed, as I've mentioned above there is a clear distinction between a MMO and "Esports", arranged matches should foster and highlight the social aspect of a MMO. As you've mentioned in 3. the sense of can community comes alive from playing with well known groups, take for example before cross servers queues for WOW BGs PvP, fighting a Horde/Alliance guild on your server fostered a sense of rivalry in that server's community. That is what it should build on, not for the sake of scrimming or tournaments.
Again with GW2.... by your reasoning, WOW PvP should be long dead then, tell me how long did it take WOW to introduce arrange matches (A very long time). This just shows the utter limitations of the core gameplay features of GW2 and its failure to retain its player base and further serves to emphasise the need to focus on fine tuning the core game play mechanics before adding any "fluff"
Promote PvP, yes, create tournaments, no, rather not in the foreseeable future until balance issues have been settled and come on, the game has yet to be "officially released" calling for tournaments is rather premature.
I hate to say this, but I think you're missing the point. Promoting viewership is not the goal, but rather promoting actual players to play the game, be it PvP (hopefully) or not is and for the most part the people watching "tournaments" are the ones who are already either playing or PvPing, the wrong targets, this might help retention but there is a better way as I'll explain later. You're making one very big sweeping generalisation as to the perceived benefits of tournaments and why people play/ PvP and I say to you, instead of a tournament (and the benefits your sweep generalisation entails) being the reason why someone plays, how about having the basic core gameplay be "fun" and that being the retaining factor and not the rewards/tournaments. Sure all these "fluffs" can be added later, but your rationalisation for them being added now is wrong and mistimed.
Eve Online.
Everything revolves around PvP. The game was built from PvP, the very price of a mineral required to build components that is then built into a ship that can be used for PvE or PvP revolves around the deaths brought from PvP. PvP drives the economy, its territories, its story.
How do you define success? Having the most subscribers? or continual growth?
Let's go with continual growth, wall street likes it, so why not.
Sounding like a broken record now, but if I must, Eve Online. It launched before WOW, and has been growing steadily ever since. WOW has seen its number of subscribers steadily decline.
Yes I love Eve Online, but I like NWO too. So don't ruin it with "fluff" till the core issues have been fixed.
I really think adding PvP in the foundry will be very entertaining. I wouldn't mind a tournament night hosted by players with assistance from PW. This happened in Forge and was successful.
Sure!! And while we're at it, can we please agree that all PvP types in this game will absolutely not whine about class balance and therefore ruin gameplay for the PvE crowd with changes to AT's and powers?
While on that issue, I can't recall any MMO out there that has had a totally seperate PvP to PvE experience. In every case it happens, nerfs go across the board affecting both gameplay styles.
I'd go out on a limb to say that is probably the major gripe most non-PvP people have, and vice-verso, is that changes go across the board.
While I would love to see both game play styles get their chance to shine..I do heartily advocate that class or ability adjustments made for the sake of one particular play style DO NOT affect the other. Anything else is akin to me telling you to play my way and not yours. This is not a good thing, ever.
However, this would require (in my opinion only) a total separation of the two. A whole server just for PvP and one for PvE. At the current time, that is counter-productive. So it won't happen.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
I am all for playing with friends and competitive, challenging PvP action. Steamrolling randoms or getting steamrolled by premades however is neither competitive nor challenging.
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As far as experience tells me, PvP servers are the worst that could happen to alts and new players alike, with people ganking people for the sake of upsetting them.
Have you even read my posts in this same thread about having separate abilities for PvP and PvE????
GW1 did it.
GW2 is starting to do it.
NWO already does it for control powers, why not for damage ones?