As far as experience tells me, PvP servers are the worst that could happen to alts and new players alike, with people ganking people for the sake of upsetting them.
Have you even read my posts in this same thread about having separate abilities for PvP and PvE????
GW1 did it.
GW2 is starting to do it.
NWO already does it for control powers, why not for damage ones?
Having separate skills for PvE and PvP makes complete sense.
I think there are lot of relevant points raised. Strawbs posts had lots of valid ideas.
I'd prefer pvp was not ranked. Rankings are a double edged sword. I want to play a game to enjoy it... not to work at it because to not do so will lose me rankings points etc. rankings generally make the few feel good about themselves at the expense of the many.
I'snt going into a game and doing well enough without having to bring it all down to epeen. I really enjoy BF3 for example but there are two many times id like to just do dumb fun stuff but them my averages go down, kill rates go down etc etc.
Organised matches sound good as long as they dont end up being exploited which they will. The foundry created maps just sounds awesome and I would like to jump in and play them for fun..
Edited -spelling.
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streamofsolaceMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think there are lot of relevant points raised. Strawbs posts had lots of valid ideas.
I'd prefer pvp was not ranked. Rankings are a double edged sword. I want to play a game to enjoy it... not to work at it because to not do so will lose me rankings points etc. rankings generally make the few feel good about themselves at the expense of the many.
I'snt going into a game and doing well enough without having to bring it all down to epeen. I really enjoy BF3 for example but there are two many times id like to just do dumb fun stuff but them my averages go down, kill rates go down etc etc.
Organised matches sound good as long as they dont end up being exploited which they will. The foundry created maps just sounds awesome and I would like to jump in and play them for fun..
Edited -spelling.
Would your thoughts on ranking change if the fact that people were unranked meant that the few who are good will be in the PvP matches of the many making it glaringly obvious to the many that they are absolutely terrible at their class? Rankings, and ranked games where good players are forced to play with good players, actually help the bad players. Sure, they have a number that tells them they are bad, but the game doesn't need to flash that in their face at every opportunity, which is exactly what happens in unranked PvP.
Though I would still like an unranked option, because sometimes you just want to have a laugh at incompetence.
I think making core gameplay fun and engaging does more to keep people than the PVP aspects. GW2 had issues retaining for many many many reasons and few of those to do with PVP aspects.
But many a game has been ruined by PVP centric balance issues... we already get plenty of crying even in DDO which has no real PVP because everyone cares more about what the other guy can do than what you can do. Someone mentioned that the weaker classes do not get into raiding... tell that to DDO players. In DDO melees are always crying that casters do more damage and wah wah wah but yet you are super lucky to get to be the 2nd or 3rd wizard in party, everyone's raid parties have ton of melees, 2-3 healing classes and maybe 1-2 casters. Doing less damage somehow still gets you priority into raids, hmmm. The whining and winging and ruination of classes from PVP baddies is just ridiculous in other games... it gets to the point where every class is just a bland replication of another class cause we all have to be "equal". I do not find this in the spirit of D&D, I play D&D because each class is unique and interesting. You don't play a bard and go crying that you're not hitting as hard as a barbarian, you feel me?
My main concern is premades or partial premades playing against groups of random players. Even though I used to run premades in WoW, back in the old PvP system and reached fairly high ranks, I got to experience this from the other side, too. It drove me right out of the game and caused a lot of seething frustration (partly due to poor behaviors like camping graveyards and dragging out games for the sole purpose of upsetting the already losing players).
I am all for playing with friends and competitive, challenging PvP action. Steamrolling randoms or getting steamrolled by premades however is neither competitive nor challenging.
Yes, premades are a bane on existence when they are allowed to be que-ed against randoms. Tera's coding is complete and utter useless <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and puts 3 premades against 15 random people and calls that PVP. In the last month they have offered a temporary mode that equalizes gear and allows NO premades. I know a ton of people suddenly interested in PVP and having fun and finally getting to win or lose based on how well the team cooperates... and I know that many people that stopped PVPing are doing so this month not only because suddenly they are not cut down in one shot by someone in top gear (gear differences in that game are too big, even in PVE, level 58 versus 60 is like another 60 levels of power) BUT also because they are never facing premades. Premades were so bad in that game because if you were solo que = almost guaranteed losses; que with friends even if you all are in <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear = at least 50% win chance.
Premades require good coding. It is easier to have a simple separate premade only que and never allow premades in normal que. This is easy-ish to achieve if pvp remains 5v5, but if it goes to large maps with raid parties of 10-20, it will be very difficult to separate. Tera has 15v15 tournament but nobody can find 30 people to fight because you can't just que and be matched with other 5 man premades, you have to que as 15. But, as I said, premades greatly imbalance 5v5 and large maps, especially if the coding cannot put equal number of premades and randoms in each party. Premades in que also made class balances difficult. If the game wants to make sure you don't have a team full of clerics and wizards versus one of just gwf-ers and no clerics... premades mess with that.
Again, Tera's coding is complete fail at balancing classes, it cannot even manage to give the same number of healers without premades in code, but the issue in how to fix party compositions at larger scale pvp with premades allowed would still exist.
I'm in favour for allowing arranged matches, but not for the reasons you listed, as I've mentioned above there is a clear distinction between a MMO and "Esports", arranged matches should foster and highlight the social aspect of a MMO. As you've mentioned in 3. the sense of can community comes alive from playing with well known groups, take for example before cross servers queues for WOW BGs PvP, fighting a Horde/Alliance guild on your server fostered a sense of rivalry in that server's community. That is what it should build on, not for the sake of scrimming or tournaments.
Again with GW2.... by your reasoning, WOW PvP should be long dead then, tell me how long did it take WOW to introduce arrange matches (A very long time). This just shows the utter limitations of the core gameplay features of GW2 and its failure to retain its player base and further serves to emphasise the need to focus on fine tuning the core game play mechanics before adding any "fluff"
Promote PvP, yes, create tournaments, no, rather not in the foreseeable future until balance issues have been settled and come on, the game has yet to be "officially released" calling for tournaments is rather premature.
I hate to say this, but I think you're missing the point. Promoting viewership is not the goal, but rather promoting actual players to play the game, be it PvP (hopefully) or not is and for the most part the people watching "tournaments" are the ones who are already either playing or PvPing, the wrong targets, this might help retention but there is a better way as I'll explain later. You're making one very big sweeping generalisation as to the perceived benefits of tournaments and why people play/ PvP and I say to you, instead of a tournament (and the benefits your sweep generalisation entails) being the reason why someone plays, how about having the basic core gameplay be "fun" and that being the retaining factor and not the rewards/tournaments. Sure all these "fluffs" can be added later, but your rationalisation for them being added now is wrong and mistimed.
Eve Online.
Everything revolves around PvP. The game was built from PvP, the very price of a mineral required to build components that is then built into a ship that can be used for PvE or PvP revolves around the deaths brought from PvP. PvP drives the economy, its territories, its story.
How do you define success? Having the most subscribers? or continual growth?
Let's go with continual growth, wall street likes it, so why not.
Sounding like a broken record now, but if I must, Eve Online. It launched before WOW, and has been growing steadily ever since. WOW has seen its number of subscribers steadily decline.
Yes I love Eve Online, but I like NWO too. So don't ruin it with "fluff" till the core issues have been fixed.
WoW PvP isn't dead because at the time of its creation there were literally no alternatives. There was no other MMO that offered structured PvP of the same quality however low that was at the time of its creation. The reason why people will leave now and not return is because the industry is very different now than it was when WoW came out. WoW's launch was awful and the game is incredibly succesful. That CANNOT happen today. A terrible launch will kill the game entirely. The standards are much higher BECAUSE WoW exists. When a new game releases it is directly competing with WoW, not as it was when it launched, but as it is today, so the pressure is much higher.
Calling for tournaments isn't premature at all? I'm not asking for them on day one I'm asking for them within 5 or 6 months of release. I'm not sure what your experience is with PvP communities but if there is no support on cryptics end the community will have no chance of significant growth.
Viewership grows playerbase as playerbase grows viewership. Sense of community is an incredibly powerful drive and by creating and allowing a competitive scene for the game to flourish players begin to feel that they're more and more a part of that community and they feel that that communtiy is strong. Viewership drives players to the game while simultaneously greatly increasing retention. Look at league of legends, I think that esports is a HUGE part of that games success at this point and riot is investing A LOT of money into it so I would imagine they feel the same way. I wish you wouldn't call the points I've made wrong and then use your completely subjective opinion as if its somehow evidence to them being wrong. It literally makes no sense. The core gameplay of this game is solid, if I didn't think it was I wouldn't be calling for the changes that I am calling for and I probably wouldn't be playing the game either. If you want to talk about making MMO gameplay intrinsically fun to the point where progression and carrot on the stick incentives aren't needed, good luck. Guild wars 2 tried exactly that and it just didn't work. It's WAY harder than you might imagine. Players are used to constant gratification in the form of rewards. Trying to replace that with gameplay that is just so fun that it does away with that need is INCREDIBLY hard.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make about EvE online? If anything it sounds like you'er trying to support my side of the argument? Not sure if you read the posts that lead up to my statements regarding succesful MMOs but I recommend you should because I don't feel like explaining that entire conversation here.
I've addressed this issue about 5 times in this thread so I would appreciate it if people stop trying to use it as an argument against PvP and realize that it will probably be a non-issue in Neverwinter. The separation of ability stats between PvE and PvP completely solves this problem and has already been embraced by Cryptic. Control Wizard CC lasts about 1/3 of its PvE duration when In PvP.
As for Premades. I think it is extremely detrimental to the community not to allow premades. Not to allow people to play with their friends and guilds is just bad and will significantly damage the PvP community and kill the competitive side all together. Premades should be allowed, however they should have separate matchmaking so that they only get matched with other premades.
Having a ranking system helps solve the problem of premades stomping randomly assembled groups all day. If players are matched by rank, it will be unlikely that a skilled/organized premade will get matched with anyone but high rated players.
I understand most of your argument. What I don't understand is why you keep bringing up League of Legends and comparing the pvp in that game to pvp in a mmorpg. LoL was designed from the ground up to be a PVP game. There literally is nothing else you can do. The entire game revolves around 5v5 pvp and its balanced as such. Hence why it's a MOBA.
Neverwinter is not a MOBA it's an MMORPG. I don't think MMORPG PVP will ever get anywhere near as much interest because it will never be anywhere near as balanced as a MOBA. Look at WoW and GW2 PVP. WoW tried to do the esports thing and it lasted like.. A month? Then everyone was bored and nobody watched it. GW2 was popular on Twitch.tv for about a week then it fell to like ~100 viewers and hasn't risen since. I don't know why you think Neverwinter will be any different. PvP will never be the main focus of a successful MMORPG if you ask me and you're crazy if you think it'll be anywhere NEAR the same level of League of Legends as far as esports and tournaments and viewers.etc goes.
Don't get me wrong I'm not bashing PVP. I enjoy it as much as most people I think. But PVP isn't what makes an MMORPG never has been most likely never will be. The hardcore pvp crowd knows this and that's why they aren't playing MMO's they're playing FPS RTS and MOBA's. DAoC days are over and as for Camelot Unchained? I'm not holding my breath.
WoW PvP isn't dead because at the time of its creation there were literally no alternatives. There was no other MMO that offered structured PvP of the same quality however low that was at the time of its creation. The reason why people will leave now and not return is because the industry is very different now than it was when WoW came out. WoW's launch was awful and the game is incredibly succesful. That CANNOT happen today. A terrible launch will kill the game entirely. The standards are much higher BECAUSE WoW exists. When a new game releases it is directly competing with WoW, not as it was when it launched, but as it is today, so the pressure is much higher.
I don't think you played WOW at launch. Not until the honour patch, PvP at launch was rewardless open world killing and battlegrounds took a year? (ish or less) before their gradual implementation. Arenas were only added during TBC expansion. If you call rewardless open world killing as quality structured PvP, you haven't played much other MMOs, add this to your statement of there not being other alternatives, it just reaffirms the notion that you really haven't played a great many MMOs, at that time or even as time has gone by.
I don't deny that an awful launch will affect the longevity of a game, however I would like to point out, the industry and market(you the consumer) has changed dramatically as time has gone on. I would like to generalise and say that the average age of consumers has plummeted as time has gone on leading to the dumbing down of the video games industry, but that's just me.
Standards have increased not because WOW exists, but because as with time the expectation of quality will always increase. Not every game competes with WOW, its called targeting the right market. LOL does not compete with WOW. WOW does not compete with COD. Again launch pressures have increased over time due to expectations over time, not because of a single game.
Calling for tournaments isn't premature at all? I'm not asking for them on day one I'm asking for them within 5 or 6 months of release. I'm not sure what your experience is with PvP communities but if there is no support on cryptics end the community will have no chance of significant growth.
Support for a community is nice, but often not required, I can point you to the multitude of Sandbox games(even some theme parked based) whose PvP communities organise player run events, PvP tournaments, trivia nights etc. etc. etc. You greatly underestimate the power of community driven content, and this is where effort should be given, not elitist "competitive/Esports" competitions. This is a MMO after all.
Viewership grows playerbase as playerbase grows viewership. Sense of community is an incredibly powerful drive and by creating and allowing a competitive scene for the game to flourish players begin to feel that they're more and more a part of that community and they feel that that communtiy is strong. Viewership drives players to the game while simultaneously greatly increasing retention. Look at league of legends, I think that esports is a HUGE part of that games success at this point and riot is investing A LOT of money into it so I would imagine they feel the same way.
As I've said, and will say again. "Esports" and MMOs- do not mix well at all and you need to change the view point you're basing your judgements on from a "Esports"/"competitive" games (GW2,LOL,SC2, etc.) to one of a MMOs- then you'll realise a competitive scene does not foster a sense of community as much as catering to the social aspects of a MMO. I will say this for the last time, who are these people of the viewership, they are people who for the most part are already playing, you want to retain them yes but you want NEW players. What works in a "Esports" style MOBA, LOL does not always work in a MMO, WOW tried it, its success is limited, GW2 tried it, again its success is limited, if one MMO with the "biggest" subscription base cannot mobilise its population to get behind its "Esports" Arena/BG attempt, then when a PvP based "Esports" BG game in GW2 cannot do it either, I think its prudent to acknowledge perhaps "Esports" cannot be integrated into a MMO in this sense.
The core gameplay of this game is solid, if I didn't think it was I wouldn't be calling for the changes that I am calling for and I probably wouldn't be playing the game either. If you want to talk about making MMO gameplay intrinsically fun to the point where progression and carrot on the stick incentives aren't needed, good luck. Guild wars 2 tried exactly that and it just didn't work. It's WAY harder than you might imagine. Players are used to constant gratification in the form of rewards. Trying to replace that with gameplay that is just so fun that it does away with that need is INCREDIBLY hard.
And this is the issue we have nowadays, people wanting instant gratification from a genre that by design is not supposed to give it. Carrot on stick is by far the WORST design, because a new carrot has to be constantly created to retain the interest of the player base (ie, constant content, season gear etc..). I'm not saying a carrot shouldn't be added to cater to those that want it, but it should not be the end all be all, that would be a disastrous design decision. The rewards of PvP at its core must be "fun"/"socialisation" and not for items that are mere trinkets.
Side note, GW2 failed with or without the features that you desire for the single fact that at its core, its gamplay/mechanics were deeply flawed and as others have put it boring, which serves to further emphasise the need to fully develop the core foundations of NWO before any "fluff" is added.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make about EvE online? If anything it sounds like you'er trying to support my side of the argument? Not sure if you read the posts that lead up to my statements regarding succesful MMOs but I recommend you should because I don't feel like explaining that entire conversation here.
I support the argument of adding features into the game for the "fun/Socialisation" functions not for your "Esports" desires, and only after the core mechanics have been fleshed out in its entirety. I recommend you play a wider variety of MMOs to broaden your knowledge on the different kinds of design decisions relating to proper MMOs. Your statements show a rather limited knowledge on this matter, to borrow a popular phrase, WOW wasn't the first MMO, there were many before it.
I don't think you played WOW at launch. Not until the honour patch, PvP at launch was rewardless open world killing and battlegrounds took a year? (ish or less) before their gradual implementation. Arenas were only added during TBC expansion. If you call rewardless open world killing as quality structured PvP, you haven't played much other MMOs, add this to your statement of there not being other alternatives, it just reaffirms the notion that you really haven't played a great many MMOs, at that time or even as time has gone by.
I don't deny that an awful launch will affect the longevity of a game, however I would like to point out, the industry and market(you the consumer) has changed dramatically as time has gone on. I would like to generalise and say that the average age of consumers has plummeted as time has gone on leading to the dumbing down of the video games industry, but that's just me.
Standards have increased not because WOW exists, but because as with time the expectation of quality will always increase. Not every game competes with WOW, its called targeting the right market. LOL does not compete with WOW. WOW does not compete with COD. Again launch pressures have increased over time due to expectations over time, not because of a single game.
Support for a community is nice, but often not required, I can point you to the multitude of Sandbox games(even some theme parked based) whose PvP communities organise player run events, PvP tournaments, trivia nights etc. etc. etc. You greatly underestimate the power of community driven content, and this is where effort should be given, not elitist "competitive/Esports" competitions. This is a MMO after all.
As I've said, and will say again. "Esports" and MMOs- do not mix well at all and you need to change the view point you're basing your judgements on from a "Esports"/"competitive" games (GW2,LOL,SC2, etc.) to one of a MMOs- then you'll realise a competitive scene does not foster a sense of community as much as catering to the social aspects of a MMO. I will say this for the last time, who are these people of the viewership, they are people who for the most part are already playing, you want to retain them yes but you want NEW players. What works in a "Esports" style MOBA, LOL does not always work in a MMO, WOW tried it, its success is limited, GW2 tried it, again its success is limited, if one MMO with the "biggest" subscription base cannot mobilise its population to get behind its "Esports" Arena/BG attempt, then when a PvP based "Esports" BG game in GW2 cannot do it either, I think its prudent to acknowledge perhaps "Esports" cannot be integrated into a MMO in this sense.
And this is the issue we have nowadays, people wanting instant gratification from a genre that by design is not supposed to give it. Carrot on stick is by far the WORST design, because a new carrot has to be constantly created to retain the interest of the player base (ie, constant content, season gear etc..). I'm not saying a carrot shouldn't be added to cater to those that want it, but it should not be the end all be all, that would be a disastrous design decision. The rewards of PvP at its core must be "fun"/"socialisation" and not for items that are mere trinkets.
Side note, GW2 failed with or without the features that you desire for the single fact that at its core, its gamplay/mechanics were deeply flawed and as others have put it boring, which serves to further emphasise the need to fully develop the core foundations of NWO before any "fluff" is added.
I support the argument of adding features into the game for the "fun/Socialisation" functions not for your "Esports" desires, and only after the core mechanics have been fleshed out in its entirety. I recommend you play a wider variety of MMOs to broaden your knowledge on the different kinds of design decisions relating to proper MMOs. Your statements show a rather limited k
nowledge on this matter, to borrow a popular phrase, WOW wasn't the first MMO, there were many before it.
Your wrong on so many levels and making so many completely unfounded assumptions that its hurting my head.
I feel like I've written a novel in this thread so I'm done, not gonna waste my time with it anymore, you win, pvp sucks and should be removed and all of your arguments however strange and incoherent they are are correct. Well played sir.
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dshearnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 27Arc User
edited April 2013
As a former Ultima Online, a ZEK server, and shadow bane/EVE player. I can say games built from the ground up to PVP like Shadow Bane are light years better then games that treat PVP as an after thought.
I guess games like EVE that let users make a difference or play it safe are the best of both worlds.....but once again... PVP actually matters in that game.
IF the game is going to treat PVP as a sporting event, then so be it, but don't burn a ton of time and energy on PVP if its pointless.
If I had my perfect scenario, there would be some sort of badlands on the fringe of map that became free for all with resources that make being there matter.
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leissesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Well, I could've say a ton of things but since topic already rolled a lot I'll just answer an assumption made by a guy pages ago about cleric self-healings being nerfed for PvP reasons.
The cleric self-helings being nerfed is a decision that is hardly supported by PvP players since it makes clerics being the main target on PvPs and that's not what many want to do or have during PvP.
I don't see a problem with PVP as long as it doesn't affect PVE. My biggest issue is when they start nerfing a class and skills to balance people are claiming they are to strong in PVP.
Can we at least have the option to duel in this game? Every other PWE game that I've played allows for dueling and it can be quite fun. Entire communities have been built around dueling in some games, and it's easy enough for people to set up things like tournaments and manage their own ranking and rating system outside of the game.
I also think a pvp foundry would be an awesome idea provided 2 5-man groups could queue up for it and play against each other. This would add major coolness factor to this game that no other MMO could claim.
Also, pvp haters please recognize that all types of people play MMOs. PvP is an area that all MMOs need to cater to in this day and age to remain competitive. I personally enjoy both PvE and PvP, so I would never play a game that doesn't have a bit of both in it.
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goodfellasxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
As a former Arena WoW player. Just a leaderboard or just plain rating will be nice. Competitive players love that.
Your wrong on so many levels and making so many completely unfounded assumptions that its hurting my head.
I feel like I've written a novel in this thread so I'm done, not gonna waste my time with it anymore, you win, pvp sucks and should be removed and all of your arguments however strange and incoherent they are are correct. Well played sir.
The same can be said about your arguments.
I do apologise if the second post seems incoherent, I posted it in haste.
If you actually read my replies carefully, I actually support PvP and some not all the features you have detailed, but for very different reasons that I cannot stop stressing. The results (ie features wanted) are similar but the reasons for them would affect the long term planning/design of further features which by your reasoning does not fit into a MMO rule set and that is the point I'm trying to make.
I want to end by saying, the discussions surrounding PvP have and will always be a contentious one, and if this is how easily you give up on your ideas (however wrong they are in my opinion, which we can agree to disagree on), then you will never see any of those ideas come to fruition.
I do apologise if the second post seems incoherent, I posted it in haste.
If you actually read my replies carefully, I actually support PvP and some not all the features you have detailed, but for very different reasons that I cannot stop stressing. The results (ie features wanted) are similar but the reasons for them would affect the long term planning/design of further features which by your reasoning does not fit into a MMO rule set and that is the point I'm trying to make.
I want to end by saying, the discussions surrounding PvP have and will always be a contentious one, and if this is how easily you give up on your ideas (however wrong they are in my opinion, which we can agree to disagree on), then you will never see any of those ideas come to fruition.
I'm not going to bother pointing out where I think you're wrong. We could have a 2 page discussion about it but as I said I'm done with this conversation. I know you support pvp, that post was a broad response to the various people I've been debating in this thread of which you are the latest. Whether I continue to debate this or not has no real weight as to whether or not cryptic will listen. In fact they probably give virtually no weight to a thread like this. If the response was overwhelmingly positive thats a different story but as is very apparent, a lot of people have differing views on what should be the priority going forward so its really just a pointless discussion that won't have any impact in any direction. I wish I could count how many words I've written in this thread because I feel like I just wrote a thesis paper or something. I really enjoy this game and have strong opinions on various topics, PvP included, but theres a point where its just not worth the energy to debate it and that point was about 6 pages ago
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited April 2013
Ok. This thread has been pretty heavily pruned and some posts will be edited in a short while two.
Please avoid having me see ***'s. It makes me have to change words when I really, really do not want to.
jkaplan92,
Please, please try to listen to my most humble opinion which ironically has been echoed through this thread.
The core gameplay isn't finished yet.
Yes the core mechanics are done. The foundation is set and Cryptic can start cranking out more classes, powers, items and the like. But the game, while finished enough for launch, is not where the PvE community wants and needs it to be.
Everything in that original post will likely be addressed in time I'm sure. I know Cryptic is already wanting to allow players to create PvP maps and such. That's been confirmed as well as a few other suggestions you brought up.
Remember Neverwinter is in an odd place because it's coming from a D&D (Virtually no PvP) and MMO (Heavy PvP) environment. With that being said, while the bulk of the D&D crowd can understand PvP being added and flushed out eventually every player, both PvP and PvE, would benefit from the core gameplay getting flushed out to it's full glory before PvP is takes any headlines.
Tournaments would be nice. I suspect adding dueling types of PvP areas (rewardless of course) could get put on a short-list at some point but to implement a full on Tournament System is no small task. I think you're highly underestimating the magnitude of setting something up like that.
The resistance you're getting all in all isn't no (although my selfish side says that) but it's "not now..not even soon." The game is great. I've had a blast testing it but while it's ready for release it still needs a lot more of everything to truly support the PvE player base first.
If you disagree I hope you will accept it as nothing more than an agree to disagree. I'm assuring you most of your requests are not only reasonable but have full Cryptic support but as far as the forum community goes I think it's pretty safe to say the community at large would like to see the core game greatly expanded more before we see massive steps in PvP.
PvP Forums are off the table for the moment. "Less is more" is truly Cryptic's approach at the moment so we'll actually have less forums than when I first started on these forums. Trust me we suggested a few more that we all felt was important.
PvP forums might come along at some point, who knows, but they want the community to prove what forums we need rather than start with everything separated. This is coming from up high and I have absolutely no control over it.
leissesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I like ambisinisterr answer and I think this game will hold people (even competitive ones like me) for several months even without an enhanced PvP system.
I first thought it would need at least a leaderboard at launch, but if they didn`t worked properly on it til now I think it`s too late to start thinking on it for launch and I can wait a few (two?) months til they launch a proper one. If there`s one thing worse than not having a ranking is having a flawed ranking. I want PvP tools but I want good ones.
If I had my perfect scenario, there would be some sort of badlands on the fringe of map that became free for all with resources that make being there matter.
This didn't work out in Ultima Online, though. I only played from 1997 to 2002, so I don't really know what changes were made after, but after they split each server in a PvE (Trammel) and PvP (Felucca) zone, the "badlands" were essentially dead.
I actually have never played a MMORPG where open world PvP really worked. The "sporting events" format, such as battlegrounds, arenas, warfronts, etc., seem to have universally been more successful. I guess Factions in UO did work somewhat, and I certainly enjoyed that format too, but I think PvP, if it's not in a sports or tournament format, always seems to quickly degenerate to anti-social griefing and ganking.
I do have very fond memories of the early UO years, but much of that is tainted by nostalgia.
This didn't work out in Ultima Online, though. I only played from 1997 to 2002, so I don't really know what changes were made after, but after they split each server in a PvE (Trammel) and PvP (Felucca) zone, the "badlands" were essentially dead.
I actually have never played a MMORPG where open world PvP really worked. The "sporting events" format, such as battlegrounds, arenas, warfronts, etc., seem to have universally been more successful. I guess Factions in UO did work somewhat, and I certainly enjoyed that format too, but I think PvP, if it's not in a sports or tournament format, always seems to quickly degenerate to anti-social griefing and ganking.
I do have very fond memories of the early UO years, but much of that is tainted by nostalgia.
Eve Online.
Open world pvp generally works best in Sandbox based MMOs for the sole reason that PvP is tied intrinsically with player driven goals that remain persistent in the world and through time becomes a player driven history of said game (The history and politics of 0.0 Alliances in Eve Online could rival any real life history of a country). That said players also PvP to "conquer" territory, be it for resources/land/Ego etc...
Open world pvp tends to fail in Theme park based MMOs because of the "carrot on stick" approach that theme parks base their PvP on (through BGs,Arenas etc.) while at the same time not providing any Sandbox mechanics that allow for player driven PvP or any persistence in said world.
Its very hard to integrate a sandbox style PvP into a MMO that's built from the ground up as a Theme park. NWO in itself is a Theme park, and should stay within the realms of that in terms of PvP - BGs, Arenas etc.
I believe Lineage 2 is probably the best example of a successful open world pvp mmo. Most ppl didn't enjoy the game for the xp grind. The game however was extremely well balanced in terms of pvp and pve.
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kotliMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 577
I don't see a problem with PVP as long as it doesn't affect PVE. My biggest issue is when they start nerfing a class and skills to balance people are claiming they are to strong in PVP.
QFTT hmm I better Quote it twice to make sure people read it.
I don't see a problem with PVP as long as it doesn't affect PVE. My biggest issue is when they start nerfing a class and skills to balance people are claiming they are to strong in PVP.
Other than this dont really care about PvP that much, PS duelling would be nice.
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v1ctor2kMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
1. Ranking systems/incentives for competitive play. PvP games these days desperately need to incorporate some kind of ranking system. Be it a simple elo rating system, or a more complex league system like what exists in SC2 and more recently league of legends, there needs to be some kind of way for players to gauge their skill versus others, and similarly as players improve they need to have concrete rewards for their improvement. Someone is going to post saying "You just want people to be able to compare epeens, this game doesn't need that." Well, for better or worse people want to compare epeens. It may make you uncomfortable, it may be shallow, but EVERY succesful competitively played game right now has some kind of rating system without exception. You simply cannot have a succesful PvP game without ratings. Yes, PvP may not be the main selling point of this game, but in my opinion it would be a shame to let the potential this game has go to waste and to see PvP being played by a niche group of players in a year. Look at guild wars 2. The game came out too early and featured no ranking system and no way to arrange matches between specific teams... The game started off with a large PvP playerbase and a huge twitch viewership... Now at least 75% of those players have left the game and twitch viewership is down to 300 or less a day. Cryptic I urge you not to make the mistake that Arenanet made.... Do not fool yourself into thinking you have all the time in the world to improve PvP. You don't... Arenanet added leaderboards several months after release... it was too late, people had moved on.
2. Allow for arranged matches. Mentioned this a bit in reference to guild wars 2, but there needs to be a way to arrange matches between two teams to foster scrimming and tournament play. This is another feature that was missing from guild wars 2 that effectively killed the PvP community within 3 months of launch.
3. Promote PvP and create tournaments. After the above feature is added the pvp community will need tournaments in order to promote viewership for the game, create fanbases for teams, and to make the PvP community feel alive. Players, whether competitive or not, enjoy being able to watch the best players compete, it makes the game feel alive and it inspires people to play and improve. It makes them feel like they have a reason to keep playing PvP instead of just to get the top honor rank or something of that nature. Eventually other organizations will sponsor tournaments, but initially it would be very helpful if cryptic could host their own with small monetary prizes or even zen/in game prizes.
4. Allow players to create PvP maps or even game modes via the foundry. I'm sure this is something Cryptic would love to do, and I think that while it isn't critical to the success of PvP, it could definitely be a huge boost.
5. Add a PvP forum... This should probably happen today because its so **** easy. Why is there no forum designated to the discussion of PvP? Previously all PvP discussion was even being merged into one thread and we couldn't even create our own threads on the matter... Whether you guys read that one thread or not, it makes the community feel like you don't care when you're throwing all of our long considered suggestions into some mega thread that we struggle to imagine anyone reads. There is just no reason not to give PvP its own sub-forum.
Couldn't agree more with what you said. PvP is an integral part of any MMO and should receive just as much attention as the PvE side.
Just look at GW2 and Wildstar. Both Arena Net and Carbine Studios have openly stated how important PvP is for them. Arena Net initially mad the mistake to underestimate the PvP part and had to pay the price. Suffice to say I don't want PvP in this game to fail just because Cryptic doesn't care enough about it. The potential is definitely there.
Couldn't agree more with what you said. PvP is an integral part of any MMO and should receive just as much attention as the PvE side.
Just look at GW2 and Wildstar. Both Arena Net and Carbine Studios have openly stated how important PvP is for them. Arena Net initially mad the mistake to underestimate the PvP part and had to pay the price. Suffice to say I don't want PvP in this game to fail just because Cryptic doesn't care enough about it. The potential is definitely there.
World pvp with objectives is nigh impossible to make because:
1. If it has nice rewards people will just wintrade (I let you take the objective, now you let me take it, now I let you take it again), like it has been witnessed in all MMOs (WoW: early Tol Barad, Rift: PVP rifts, SWTOR: Ilum)
2. If it doesn't have nice rewards people will just not be interested in participating in it after the initial novelty factor has worn off.
1. If it has nice rewards people will just wintrade (I let you take the objective, now you let me take it, now I let you take it again), like it has been witnessed in all MMOs (WoW: early Tol Barad, Rift: PVP rifts, SWTOR: Ilum)
Tol Barad was poorly designed, though. The rewards for successfully defending the zone were substantially worse than the reward for successfully winning when the other side held it. So there was no initiative to actually spend 20+ minutes to defend it (and it was also designed in a way that made it less likely that you would achieve that). To be fair, though, the win-trading didn't happen on all servers. Only those that had somewhat balanced populations. On imbalanced servers, one faction would pretty much always have Tol Barad.
Factions are nearly always bad, unless there is a system in place that enforces some form of balance or allows the switching of sides (like in Ultima Online), and that dynamically gives bonuses to the underdogs (like in DAoC).
Somehow I missed this thread. Jka thank you for an awesome write up in your OP of key points that would help foster a great pvp scene in this game. It is great to hear the opinion and feedback of someone who is passionate about pvp and has a deep understanding of the underlying issues.
Its too bad that the post got derailed by trolls, I hope that at least a pvp forum section gets added soon, and perhaps a mod who is somewhat interested in pvp to monitor it.
Somehow I missed this thread. Jka thank you for an awesome write up in your OP of key points that would help foster a great pvp scene in this game. It is great to hear the opinion and feedback of someone who is passionate about pvp and has a deep understanding of the underlying issues.
Its too bad that the post got derailed by trolls, I hope that at least a pvp forum section gets added soon, and perhaps a mod who is somewhat interested in pvp to monitor it.
Look forward to your future insights on pvp.
Thanks for the support. It sucks that the thread got derailed but I'm glad most of us were at least able to see eye to eye to some extent in the end, so hopefully it won't be as much of an issue in PvP related topics in the future. I really hope they add a pvp forum as well, I think it would be a really good first step for cryptic in terms of fostering a pvp community and getting feedback but I'm not really sure if PvP is much of a priority for them at this point, doesn't really feel like it at all. Considering how easy it would be to make a PvP forum it kinda of surprises me that it doesn't exist already, virtually every mmo that has PvP has some at least one sub-forum deboted to it.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Thanks for the support. It sucks that the thread got derailed but I'm glad most of us were at least able to see eye to eye to some extent in the end, so hopefully it won't be as much of an issue in PvP related topics in the future. I really hope they add a pvp forum as well, I think it would be a really good first step for cryptic in terms of fostering a pvp community and getting feedback but I'm not really sure if PvP is much of a priority for them at this point, doesn't really feel like it at all. Considering how easy it would be to make a PvP forum it kinda of surprises me that it doesn't exist already, virtually every mmo that has PvP has some at least one sub-forum deboted to it.
It's not just PvP.
The community moderators had a list of suggested sections which should be added. The higher ups decided they wanted the community to prove what was needed.
I really don't care for PvP sections on forums. I find them to be the most heavily moderated and are typically pretty nonconstructive. The posters in them typically forget PvP is supposed to take place in the game and not on the forums.
You and this thread are a diamond in the rough.
If every thread in the PvP sections I have experience in was like this I'd be backing you to no end.
But as it stands my opinion of the forums remains purely my own opinion with little to no weight. They want you guys to make additional sections necessary. They want the forums to grow with the user-base demands.
So if you guys prove to them they are needed they'll be added.
I love how the title of the thread was @CRYPTIC: What PvP needs to be a success and people just can't resist coming in and flaming pvp. If you don't like pvp stay away. This game is now and will be for quite some time pve focused. Let the people that enjoy pvp try to increase the fun factor of this small section of the game. It won't harm your pve. It won't take the devs away from expansion so just go run along. That said, I like both. The most fun pvp I can remember was vanilla WoW where there was ranking. It meant something to be High Warlord. That was back when Blizzard didn't give a rip about pvp. It was a sideline like it is here. Didn't mean it wasn't fun. the raiders got to raid and the pvpers got to pvp. Rarely did they mix. Raid gear sucked for pvp amd pvp gear sucked for raiding. I did both and had a great time. I made Warlord the last week before they cut out the rankings and I still managed to go on 40 man raids. I pvped sporadically after they removed the rankings becasue what was the point?
I totally agree with the author of the post. You need rankings. If even just so you have someone to hate. Someone to chase. Its what drives pvp. You need pvp gear. You need competitive options for the hardcore. This doesn't mean you need to alienate that casual pvpers. They will still have all the random action but as someone earlier posted it is lame when you have teams of pvp focused groups battling random pugs. Noone has fun there.
These aren't earth-shattering game changing requests. Let pvpers have their own section on th forums. If you are not interested in pvp don't go to that section. Not that diffiult to figure out.
Let the pvpers have their small slice of the game and strive to make it better. I promise, it won't take away from the mainstream pve for quite some time.....until like WoW it sneaks up on everyone and it becomes fun
......then becomes retardedly lame where everyone wins a trophy like WoW. Hopefully not that extreme but I see potential for both to grow in this game side by side not necessarily competing for player's or dev's time.
It's not just PvP.
The community moderators had a list of suggested sections which should be added. The higher ups decided they wanted the community to prove what was needed.
I really don't care for PvP sections on forums. I find them to be the most heavily moderated and are typically pretty nonconstructive. The posters in them typically forget PvP is supposed to take place in the game and not on the forums.
You and this thread are a diamond in the rough.
If every thread in the PvP sections I have experience in was like this I'd be backing you to no end.
But as it stands my opinion of the forums remains purely my own opinion with little to no weight. They want you guys to make additional sections necessary. They want the forums to grow with the user-base demands.
So if you guys prove to them they are needed they'll be added.
I get what you're saying, people often complain about PvP balance which is something thats really pretty subjective and I think that is what leads to a lot of arguments that have no real possible conclusions. So yeah, I know PvP forums can suck but I also think its important the Cryptic, or any company for that matter, get the feedback that is important. Yes, a lot of threads may be completely unfounded balance complaints, but 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 will be legitimate suggestions that should be seriously considered, and frankly I find it almost not worth the effort to even contribute after this thread. It just doesn't feel like Cryptic cares and the vocal minority on these forums are old school pen and paper guys, rpers, and PvE-centric players. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing wrong with any of those types of players, but obviously PvP isn't a major area of emphasis for any of them.
I'm not sure how cryptic expects us to show that certain forums are necessary? Should I create a petition or something? I'm not even sure how to show that or if it would even make a difference. I really disagree with that approach on Cryptics end. You shouldn't wait till the community is clamoring for something before you make it happen, you should try to be proactive about finding what the community needs or what will help you get better feedback about your game. I find it really hard to actually discuss PvP-related issues on these forums because every time I post my thread is going to be flooded with people who just don't care and for whatever reason feel the need to troll/derail/flame my thread.
Comments
Having separate skills for PvE and PvP makes complete sense.
Foundry pvp.......no way. Just PvP.
*~Serixil Kor'hedron- Drow Trickster~*
I'd prefer pvp was not ranked. Rankings are a double edged sword. I want to play a game to enjoy it... not to work at it because to not do so will lose me rankings points etc. rankings generally make the few feel good about themselves at the expense of the many.
I'snt going into a game and doing well enough without having to bring it all down to epeen. I really enjoy BF3 for example but there are two many times id like to just do dumb fun stuff but them my averages go down, kill rates go down etc etc.
Organised matches sound good as long as they dont end up being exploited which they will. The foundry created maps just sounds awesome and I would like to jump in and play them for fun..
Edited -spelling.
Would your thoughts on ranking change if the fact that people were unranked meant that the few who are good will be in the PvP matches of the many making it glaringly obvious to the many that they are absolutely terrible at their class? Rankings, and ranked games where good players are forced to play with good players, actually help the bad players. Sure, they have a number that tells them they are bad, but the game doesn't need to flash that in their face at every opportunity, which is exactly what happens in unranked PvP.
Though I would still like an unranked option, because sometimes you just want to have a laugh at incompetence.
But many a game has been ruined by PVP centric balance issues... we already get plenty of crying even in DDO which has no real PVP because everyone cares more about what the other guy can do than what you can do. Someone mentioned that the weaker classes do not get into raiding... tell that to DDO players. In DDO melees are always crying that casters do more damage and wah wah wah but yet you are super lucky to get to be the 2nd or 3rd wizard in party, everyone's raid parties have ton of melees, 2-3 healing classes and maybe 1-2 casters. Doing less damage somehow still gets you priority into raids, hmmm. The whining and winging and ruination of classes from PVP baddies is just ridiculous in other games... it gets to the point where every class is just a bland replication of another class cause we all have to be "equal". I do not find this in the spirit of D&D, I play D&D because each class is unique and interesting. You don't play a bard and go crying that you're not hitting as hard as a barbarian, you feel me?
Yes, premades are a bane on existence when they are allowed to be que-ed against randoms. Tera's coding is complete and utter useless <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and puts 3 premades against 15 random people and calls that PVP. In the last month they have offered a temporary mode that equalizes gear and allows NO premades. I know a ton of people suddenly interested in PVP and having fun and finally getting to win or lose based on how well the team cooperates... and I know that many people that stopped PVPing are doing so this month not only because suddenly they are not cut down in one shot by someone in top gear (gear differences in that game are too big, even in PVE, level 58 versus 60 is like another 60 levels of power) BUT also because they are never facing premades. Premades were so bad in that game because if you were solo que = almost guaranteed losses; que with friends even if you all are in <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear = at least 50% win chance.
Premades require good coding. It is easier to have a simple separate premade only que and never allow premades in normal que. This is easy-ish to achieve if pvp remains 5v5, but if it goes to large maps with raid parties of 10-20, it will be very difficult to separate. Tera has 15v15 tournament but nobody can find 30 people to fight because you can't just que and be matched with other 5 man premades, you have to que as 15. But, as I said, premades greatly imbalance 5v5 and large maps, especially if the coding cannot put equal number of premades and randoms in each party. Premades in que also made class balances difficult. If the game wants to make sure you don't have a team full of clerics and wizards versus one of just gwf-ers and no clerics... premades mess with that.
Again, Tera's coding is complete fail at balancing classes, it cannot even manage to give the same number of healers without premades in code, but the issue in how to fix party compositions at larger scale pvp with premades allowed would still exist.
WoW PvP isn't dead because at the time of its creation there were literally no alternatives. There was no other MMO that offered structured PvP of the same quality however low that was at the time of its creation. The reason why people will leave now and not return is because the industry is very different now than it was when WoW came out. WoW's launch was awful and the game is incredibly succesful. That CANNOT happen today. A terrible launch will kill the game entirely. The standards are much higher BECAUSE WoW exists. When a new game releases it is directly competing with WoW, not as it was when it launched, but as it is today, so the pressure is much higher.
Calling for tournaments isn't premature at all? I'm not asking for them on day one I'm asking for them within 5 or 6 months of release. I'm not sure what your experience is with PvP communities but if there is no support on cryptics end the community will have no chance of significant growth.
Viewership grows playerbase as playerbase grows viewership. Sense of community is an incredibly powerful drive and by creating and allowing a competitive scene for the game to flourish players begin to feel that they're more and more a part of that community and they feel that that communtiy is strong. Viewership drives players to the game while simultaneously greatly increasing retention. Look at league of legends, I think that esports is a HUGE part of that games success at this point and riot is investing A LOT of money into it so I would imagine they feel the same way. I wish you wouldn't call the points I've made wrong and then use your completely subjective opinion as if its somehow evidence to them being wrong. It literally makes no sense. The core gameplay of this game is solid, if I didn't think it was I wouldn't be calling for the changes that I am calling for and I probably wouldn't be playing the game either. If you want to talk about making MMO gameplay intrinsically fun to the point where progression and carrot on the stick incentives aren't needed, good luck. Guild wars 2 tried exactly that and it just didn't work. It's WAY harder than you might imagine. Players are used to constant gratification in the form of rewards. Trying to replace that with gameplay that is just so fun that it does away with that need is INCREDIBLY hard.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make about EvE online? If anything it sounds like you'er trying to support my side of the argument? Not sure if you read the posts that lead up to my statements regarding succesful MMOs but I recommend you should because I don't feel like explaining that entire conversation here.
I've addressed this issue about 5 times in this thread so I would appreciate it if people stop trying to use it as an argument against PvP and realize that it will probably be a non-issue in Neverwinter. The separation of ability stats between PvE and PvP completely solves this problem and has already been embraced by Cryptic. Control Wizard CC lasts about 1/3 of its PvE duration when In PvP.
As for Premades. I think it is extremely detrimental to the community not to allow premades. Not to allow people to play with their friends and guilds is just bad and will significantly damage the PvP community and kill the competitive side all together. Premades should be allowed, however they should have separate matchmaking so that they only get matched with other premades.
Having a ranking system helps solve the problem of premades stomping randomly assembled groups all day. If players are matched by rank, it will be unlikely that a skilled/organized premade will get matched with anyone but high rated players.
Neverwinter is not a MOBA it's an MMORPG. I don't think MMORPG PVP will ever get anywhere near as much interest because it will never be anywhere near as balanced as a MOBA. Look at WoW and GW2 PVP. WoW tried to do the esports thing and it lasted like.. A month? Then everyone was bored and nobody watched it. GW2 was popular on Twitch.tv for about a week then it fell to like ~100 viewers and hasn't risen since. I don't know why you think Neverwinter will be any different. PvP will never be the main focus of a successful MMORPG if you ask me and you're crazy if you think it'll be anywhere NEAR the same level of League of Legends as far as esports and tournaments and viewers.etc goes.
Don't get me wrong I'm not bashing PVP. I enjoy it as much as most people I think. But PVP isn't what makes an MMORPG never has been most likely never will be. The hardcore pvp crowd knows this and that's why they aren't playing MMO's they're playing FPS RTS and MOBA's. DAoC days are over and as for Camelot Unchained? I'm not holding my breath.
I don't think you played WOW at launch. Not until the honour patch, PvP at launch was rewardless open world killing and battlegrounds took a year? (ish or less) before their gradual implementation. Arenas were only added during TBC expansion. If you call rewardless open world killing as quality structured PvP, you haven't played much other MMOs, add this to your statement of there not being other alternatives, it just reaffirms the notion that you really haven't played a great many MMOs, at that time or even as time has gone by.
I don't deny that an awful launch will affect the longevity of a game, however I would like to point out, the industry and market(you the consumer) has changed dramatically as time has gone on. I would like to generalise and say that the average age of consumers has plummeted as time has gone on leading to the dumbing down of the video games industry, but that's just me.
Standards have increased not because WOW exists, but because as with time the expectation of quality will always increase. Not every game competes with WOW, its called targeting the right market. LOL does not compete with WOW. WOW does not compete with COD. Again launch pressures have increased over time due to expectations over time, not because of a single game.
Support for a community is nice, but often not required, I can point you to the multitude of Sandbox games(even some theme parked based) whose PvP communities organise player run events, PvP tournaments, trivia nights etc. etc. etc. You greatly underestimate the power of community driven content, and this is where effort should be given, not elitist "competitive/Esports" competitions. This is a MMO after all.
As I've said, and will say again. "Esports" and MMOs- do not mix well at all and you need to change the view point you're basing your judgements on from a "Esports"/"competitive" games (GW2,LOL,SC2, etc.) to one of a MMOs- then you'll realise a competitive scene does not foster a sense of community as much as catering to the social aspects of a MMO. I will say this for the last time, who are these people of the viewership, they are people who for the most part are already playing, you want to retain them yes but you want NEW players. What works in a "Esports" style MOBA, LOL does not always work in a MMO, WOW tried it, its success is limited, GW2 tried it, again its success is limited, if one MMO with the "biggest" subscription base cannot mobilise its population to get behind its "Esports" Arena/BG attempt, then when a PvP based "Esports" BG game in GW2 cannot do it either, I think its prudent to acknowledge perhaps "Esports" cannot be integrated into a MMO in this sense.
And this is the issue we have nowadays, people wanting instant gratification from a genre that by design is not supposed to give it. Carrot on stick is by far the WORST design, because a new carrot has to be constantly created to retain the interest of the player base (ie, constant content, season gear etc..). I'm not saying a carrot shouldn't be added to cater to those that want it, but it should not be the end all be all, that would be a disastrous design decision. The rewards of PvP at its core must be "fun"/"socialisation" and not for items that are mere trinkets.
Side note, GW2 failed with or without the features that you desire for the single fact that at its core, its gamplay/mechanics were deeply flawed and as others have put it boring, which serves to further emphasise the need to fully develop the core foundations of NWO before any "fluff" is added.
I support the argument of adding features into the game for the "fun/Socialisation" functions not for your "Esports" desires, and only after the core mechanics have been fleshed out in its entirety. I recommend you play a wider variety of MMOs to broaden your knowledge on the different kinds of design decisions relating to proper MMOs. Your statements show a rather limited knowledge on this matter, to borrow a popular phrase, WOW wasn't the first MMO, there were many before it.
Your wrong on so many levels and making so many completely unfounded assumptions that its hurting my head.
I feel like I've written a novel in this thread so I'm done, not gonna waste my time with it anymore, you win, pvp sucks and should be removed and all of your arguments however strange and incoherent they are are correct. Well played sir.
I guess games like EVE that let users make a difference or play it safe are the best of both worlds.....but once again... PVP actually matters in that game.
IF the game is going to treat PVP as a sporting event, then so be it, but don't burn a ton of time and energy on PVP if its pointless.
If I had my perfect scenario, there would be some sort of badlands on the fringe of map that became free for all with resources that make being there matter.
The cleric self-helings being nerfed is a decision that is hardly supported by PvP players since it makes clerics being the main target on PvPs and that's not what many want to do or have during PvP.
I also think a pvp foundry would be an awesome idea provided 2 5-man groups could queue up for it and play against each other. This would add major coolness factor to this game that no other MMO could claim.
Also, pvp haters please recognize that all types of people play MMOs. PvP is an area that all MMOs need to cater to in this day and age to remain competitive. I personally enjoy both PvE and PvP, so I would never play a game that doesn't have a bit of both in it.
The same can be said about your arguments.
I do apologise if the second post seems incoherent, I posted it in haste.
If you actually read my replies carefully, I actually support PvP and some not all the features you have detailed, but for very different reasons that I cannot stop stressing. The results (ie features wanted) are similar but the reasons for them would affect the long term planning/design of further features which by your reasoning does not fit into a MMO rule set and that is the point I'm trying to make.
I want to end by saying, the discussions surrounding PvP have and will always be a contentious one, and if this is how easily you give up on your ideas (however wrong they are in my opinion, which we can agree to disagree on), then you will never see any of those ideas come to fruition.
I'm not going to bother pointing out where I think you're wrong. We could have a 2 page discussion about it but as I said I'm done with this conversation. I know you support pvp, that post was a broad response to the various people I've been debating in this thread of which you are the latest. Whether I continue to debate this or not has no real weight as to whether or not cryptic will listen. In fact they probably give virtually no weight to a thread like this. If the response was overwhelmingly positive thats a different story but as is very apparent, a lot of people have differing views on what should be the priority going forward so its really just a pointless discussion that won't have any impact in any direction. I wish I could count how many words I've written in this thread because I feel like I just wrote a thesis paper or something. I really enjoy this game and have strong opinions on various topics, PvP included, but theres a point where its just not worth the energy to debate it and that point was about 6 pages ago
Please avoid having me see ***'s. It makes me have to change words when I really, really do not want to.
jkaplan92,
Please, please try to listen to my most humble opinion which ironically has been echoed through this thread.
The core gameplay isn't finished yet.
Yes the core mechanics are done. The foundation is set and Cryptic can start cranking out more classes, powers, items and the like. But the game, while finished enough for launch, is not where the PvE community wants and needs it to be.
Everything in that original post will likely be addressed in time I'm sure. I know Cryptic is already wanting to allow players to create PvP maps and such. That's been confirmed as well as a few other suggestions you brought up.
Remember Neverwinter is in an odd place because it's coming from a D&D (Virtually no PvP) and MMO (Heavy PvP) environment. With that being said, while the bulk of the D&D crowd can understand PvP being added and flushed out eventually every player, both PvP and PvE, would benefit from the core gameplay getting flushed out to it's full glory before PvP is takes any headlines.
Tournaments would be nice. I suspect adding dueling types of PvP areas (rewardless of course) could get put on a short-list at some point but to implement a full on Tournament System is no small task. I think you're highly underestimating the magnitude of setting something up like that.
The resistance you're getting all in all isn't no (although my selfish side says that) but it's "not now..not even soon." The game is great. I've had a blast testing it but while it's ready for release it still needs a lot more of everything to truly support the PvE player base first.
If you disagree I hope you will accept it as nothing more than an agree to disagree. I'm assuring you most of your requests are not only reasonable but have full Cryptic support but as far as the forum community goes I think it's pretty safe to say the community at large would like to see the core game greatly expanded more before we see massive steps in PvP.
PvP Forums are off the table for the moment. "Less is more" is truly Cryptic's approach at the moment so we'll actually have less forums than when I first started on these forums. Trust me we suggested a few more that we all felt was important.
PvP forums might come along at some point, who knows, but they want the community to prove what forums we need rather than start with everything separated. This is coming from up high and I have absolutely no control over it.
I first thought it would need at least a leaderboard at launch, but if they didn`t worked properly on it til now I think it`s too late to start thinking on it for launch and I can wait a few (two?) months til they launch a proper one. If there`s one thing worse than not having a ranking is having a flawed ranking. I want PvP tools but I want good ones.
This didn't work out in Ultima Online, though. I only played from 1997 to 2002, so I don't really know what changes were made after, but after they split each server in a PvE (Trammel) and PvP (Felucca) zone, the "badlands" were essentially dead.
I actually have never played a MMORPG where open world PvP really worked. The "sporting events" format, such as battlegrounds, arenas, warfronts, etc., seem to have universally been more successful. I guess Factions in UO did work somewhat, and I certainly enjoyed that format too, but I think PvP, if it's not in a sports or tournament format, always seems to quickly degenerate to anti-social griefing and ganking.
I do have very fond memories of the early UO years, but much of that is tainted by nostalgia.
Eve Online.
Open world pvp generally works best in Sandbox based MMOs for the sole reason that PvP is tied intrinsically with player driven goals that remain persistent in the world and through time becomes a player driven history of said game (The history and politics of 0.0 Alliances in Eve Online could rival any real life history of a country). That said players also PvP to "conquer" territory, be it for resources/land/Ego etc...
Open world pvp tends to fail in Theme park based MMOs because of the "carrot on stick" approach that theme parks base their PvP on (through BGs,Arenas etc.) while at the same time not providing any Sandbox mechanics that allow for player driven PvP or any persistence in said world.
Its very hard to integrate a sandbox style PvP into a MMO that's built from the ground up as a Theme park. NWO in itself is a Theme park, and should stay within the realms of that in terms of PvP - BGs, Arenas etc.
QFTT hmm I better Quote it twice to make sure people read it.
Other than this dont really care about PvP that much, PS duelling would be nice.
Couldn't agree more with what you said. PvP is an integral part of any MMO and should receive just as much attention as the PvE side.
Just look at GW2 and Wildstar. Both Arena Net and Carbine Studios have openly stated how important PvP is for them. Arena Net initially mad the mistake to underestimate the PvP part and had to pay the price. Suffice to say I don't want PvP in this game to fail just because Cryptic doesn't care enough about it. The potential is definitely there.
World pvp with objectives is nigh impossible to make because:
1. If it has nice rewards people will just wintrade (I let you take the objective, now you let me take it, now I let you take it again), like it has been witnessed in all MMOs (WoW: early Tol Barad, Rift: PVP rifts, SWTOR: Ilum)
2. If it doesn't have nice rewards people will just not be interested in participating in it after the initial novelty factor has worn off.
Tol Barad was poorly designed, though. The rewards for successfully defending the zone were substantially worse than the reward for successfully winning when the other side held it. So there was no initiative to actually spend 20+ minutes to defend it (and it was also designed in a way that made it less likely that you would achieve that). To be fair, though, the win-trading didn't happen on all servers. Only those that had somewhat balanced populations. On imbalanced servers, one faction would pretty much always have Tol Barad.
Factions are nearly always bad, unless there is a system in place that enforces some form of balance or allows the switching of sides (like in Ultima Online), and that dynamically gives bonuses to the underdogs (like in DAoC).
Its too bad that the post got derailed by trolls, I hope that at least a pvp forum section gets added soon, and perhaps a mod who is somewhat interested in pvp to monitor it.
Look forward to your future insights on pvp.
Thanks for the support. It sucks that the thread got derailed but I'm glad most of us were at least able to see eye to eye to some extent in the end, so hopefully it won't be as much of an issue in PvP related topics in the future. I really hope they add a pvp forum as well, I think it would be a really good first step for cryptic in terms of fostering a pvp community and getting feedback but I'm not really sure if PvP is much of a priority for them at this point, doesn't really feel like it at all. Considering how easy it would be to make a PvP forum it kinda of surprises me that it doesn't exist already, virtually every mmo that has PvP has some at least one sub-forum deboted to it.
It's not just PvP.
The community moderators had a list of suggested sections which should be added. The higher ups decided they wanted the community to prove what was needed.
I really don't care for PvP sections on forums. I find them to be the most heavily moderated and are typically pretty nonconstructive. The posters in them typically forget PvP is supposed to take place in the game and not on the forums.
You and this thread are a diamond in the rough.
If every thread in the PvP sections I have experience in was like this I'd be backing you to no end.
But as it stands my opinion of the forums remains purely my own opinion with little to no weight. They want you guys to make additional sections necessary. They want the forums to grow with the user-base demands.
So if you guys prove to them they are needed they'll be added.
I totally agree with the author of the post. You need rankings. If even just so you have someone to hate. Someone to chase. Its what drives pvp. You need pvp gear. You need competitive options for the hardcore. This doesn't mean you need to alienate that casual pvpers. They will still have all the random action but as someone earlier posted it is lame when you have teams of pvp focused groups battling random pugs. Noone has fun there.
These aren't earth-shattering game changing requests. Let pvpers have their own section on th forums. If you are not interested in pvp don't go to that section. Not that diffiult to figure out.
Let the pvpers have their small slice of the game and strive to make it better. I promise, it won't take away from the mainstream pve for quite some time.....until like WoW it sneaks up on everyone and it becomes fun
......then becomes retardedly lame where everyone wins a trophy like WoW. Hopefully not that extreme but I see potential for both to grow in this game side by side not necessarily competing for player's or dev's time.
I get what you're saying, people often complain about PvP balance which is something thats really pretty subjective and I think that is what leads to a lot of arguments that have no real possible conclusions. So yeah, I know PvP forums can suck but I also think its important the Cryptic, or any company for that matter, get the feedback that is important. Yes, a lot of threads may be completely unfounded balance complaints, but 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 will be legitimate suggestions that should be seriously considered, and frankly I find it almost not worth the effort to even contribute after this thread. It just doesn't feel like Cryptic cares and the vocal minority on these forums are old school pen and paper guys, rpers, and PvE-centric players. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing wrong with any of those types of players, but obviously PvP isn't a major area of emphasis for any of them.
I'm not sure how cryptic expects us to show that certain forums are necessary? Should I create a petition or something? I'm not even sure how to show that or if it would even make a difference. I really disagree with that approach on Cryptics end. You shouldn't wait till the community is clamoring for something before you make it happen, you should try to be proactive about finding what the community needs or what will help you get better feedback about your game. I find it really hard to actually discuss PvP-related issues on these forums because every time I post my thread is going to be flooded with people who just don't care and for whatever reason feel the need to troll/derail/flame my thread.