They do to much damage? oh...... yea.... I am sure somebody will get right on that....you know....rebalancing the entire game since it was built from the ground up as the TR being the damage dealer in every encounter....
I don't believe anyone is wanting the TR to lose all of their dps, I'm fine with how much they do. I just think it shouldn't be in the form of ranged. Especially not the highest damage at will ranged attack.
I've stated before that there may be scaling issues and at 60 the damage output is perfectly fine. Up to lvl 39 though I think it is way too strong.
In this video, at 00:39 cloud of steal does 2339 damage in about 5 seconds. Which, if you look at the loss of HP on the person, is maybe 15-20%? HP. The person did not attempt to dodge. Video is rather grainy, which sucks.
There are some actual numbers to work with.... I think you would be hard pressed to argue that it is the best ranged skill in the game as it is channeled, must power up again, can be dodged, and roots you in place for 5 seconds. Just my opinion
The only problem I see here are people who don't understand the whole idea of roles in D&D 4th edition. This isn't "insert random MMO here" where every class needs to be balanced to the point all of their damage is the same. Balancing should take place WITHIN EACH ROLE; i.e. strikers are balanced against other strikers, leaders are balanced against leaders, defenders against defenders, etc.
A striker ROGUE (not ROUGE) does more damage than a leader cleric or a controller wizard, because that's what they're supposed to do. When rogues start absorbing more damage than defenders or controlling better than wizards, then you have a legitimate reason to complain.
Stop trying to pigeonhole every class into the same damage requirements; that's not D&D. There are plenty of generic MMOs out there for you to play with if you want every class to be balanced around equal damage.
So far as I know, paper and pencil D&D of any version didn't feature PvP to a great degree, but instead focused on PvE. When everyone is going against the environment, as an allied group, classes don't have to be balanced to a fine degree of precision, as efforts are cooperative rather than competitive.
In a situation where there is a good deal of PvP, things change, if the game is at all serious about it. Classes have to be reasonably balanced one to the other (not solely by damage, but with the aggregate of their abilities) so that each class can effectively compete against every other class so that all classes can operate on a level playing field, with player skill being the primary factor that affects the chance of victory.
Comparisons can not be based only on role, as each class competes on its own ability against characters of every role, not only against others of the same role. If all classes aren't going to be balanced, the developers will have to point out that PvP is there merely for an entertaining diversion, and not for serious competition, and ensure that PvP gives no in game rewards.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
In this video, at 00:39 cloud of steal does 2339 damage in about 5 seconds. Which, if you look at the loss of HP on the person, is maybe 15-20%? HP. The person did not attempt to dodge. Video is rather grainy, which sucks.
There are some actual numbers to work with.... I think you would be hard pressed to argue that it is the best ranged skill in the game as it is channeled, must power up again, can be dodged, and roots you in place for 5 seconds. Just my opinion
You didn't actually link a vid. I'm fairly certain though it is Strabyx video when he 1v2s two GWFs and then kills them again on respawn. It is actually 4 seconds and about 25% of a plate wearing classes health from a non crit ranged attack.
Again, maybe it scales poorly at 60 and isn't an issue.
Great idea.Nerf the TR like in D3 when the monk got his attack speed taken away.It went from a cool game to a slow motion losing battle in one day.That made the game play significantly worse and in the end was another reason that game failed.Bunch of whiners saying nerf this and nerf that.In PVE it should not matter. PVP skills I honestly could care less.Nerf PVP out of existence but don't ruin my core game.The TR ranged attack in question got put on the back burner once others were unlocked.Just saying.My TR was chugging potions like they were going out of style in the higher levels I made it to.I kept my first two consumables with 99 each.During one battle with that dragon in that level 30 ish dungeon I downed at least 40-50 potions and we didn't even beat it.Sure we didn't have a healer and couldn't stick together but it seemed like at the end of the weekend I was popping potions at every encounter.I could see stocking up on potions getting costly in the end.Restocking at the merchants was hitting my gold pretty hard.I say leave the TR alone.He does his job.I may have to adjust my attributes for more defense if I go TR on release.
You didn't actually link a vid. I'm fairly certain though it is Strabyx video when he 1v2s two GWFs and then kills them again on respawn. It is actually 4 seconds and about 25% of a plate wearing classes health from a non crit ranged attack.
Again, maybe it scales poorly at 60 and isn't an issue.
My bad, added the video. Looks to be a 1v1 at the point of cloud of steel
So far as I know, paper and pencil D&D of any version didn't feature PvP to a great degree, but instead focused on PvE. When everyone is going against the environment, as an allied group, classes don't have to be balanced to a fine degree of precision, as efforts are cooperative rather than competitive.
In a situation where there is a good deal of PvP, things change, if the game is at all serious about it. Classes have to be reasonably balanced one to the other (not solely by damage, but with the aggregate of their abilities) so that each class can effectively compete against every other class so that all classes can operate on a level playing field, with player skill being the primary factor that affects the chance of victory.
Comparisons can not be based only on role, as each class competes on its own ability against characters of every role, not only against others of the same role. If all classes aren't going to be balanced, the developers will have to point out that PvP is there merely for an entertaining diversion, and not for serious competition, and ensure that PvP gives no in game rewards.
That depends entirely on the DM. Every pen and paper game I played was full PVP enabled; magic users had to actually pay attention to what they were doing also, otherwise they'd kill the group; characters who thought they were the gods gift to faerun and treated the group as such may not wake up from their rest.
The PVP in this game is an amusing diversion at best...to try and change core mechanics of classes based solely on an amusing diversion doesn't bode well for the game. Should it be removed entirely? Nah, I enjoy the occasional duel or capture and hold match, I wouldn't mind if they throw in some arena style matches at some point. I highly doubt you'll find there are hardcore PVPers only playing this game for the PVP.
Frankly, if a Devoted Cleric, Control Wizard, and Guardian Fighter can do as much DPS as my rogue, regardless of the situation, then I expect to be able to heal as well as a Devoted Cleric, CC as well as a control wizard, and raise my weapons to block attacks like a Guadian Fighter. Sounds pretty stupid, and it is...you don't balance DPS between different types of characters. No game has done that, because it makes no sense. So, going back to my original point, the disconnect here is people failing to understand what the roles are in D&D 4th edition. Rogue is the only STRIKER (pure dps) in the game right now.
(In before someone says the Great weapon fighter is a Striker; he is not. The keyword in GWF is FIGHTER, all Fighters in D&D 4e are classified as Defenders.)
Also, attempting to balance any class pre-60 is a joke. The majority of the people crying for nerfs on the forum are people who did teen PVP over the beta weekend. You don't balance classes according to the very first tier of PVP, regardless of whether I think there should or shouldn't be a balance. High burst DPS classes always dominate in lower tier PVP, because classes that rely on defensive abilities usually don't have them all yet.
In this video, at 00:39 cloud of steal does 2339 damage in about 5 seconds. Which, if you look at the loss of HP on the person, is maybe 15-20%? HP. The person did not attempt to dodge. Video is rather grainy, which sucks.
There are some actual numbers to work with.... I think you would be hard pressed to argue that it is the best ranged skill in the game as it is channeled, must power up again, can be dodged, and roots you in place for 5 seconds. Just my opinion
Set it to 720p, quality gets a lot better. I hate uploading large files... which means I'm pretty stingy when it comes to encoding.
FYI, your numbers are wrong, you didn't include the critical damage, normal damage and critical damage appear on different sides. So in actual fact, I did 2339 normal damage and 1564 critical damage, totalling 3903 damage.
That being said, basing a judgement on the relative power of a skill on "non max level" usage is rather pointless. There are a number of factors that at that moment you have not considered. Namely,
1) Actual level of opponent relative to the attacker. (It matters a lot for stat/damage scaling in "low level" pvp)
2) Gear of opponent relative to the attacker. (Again it matters for scaling purposes)
3) Feat points into relevant damage or defensive feats. (Which can affect the numbers you see)
4) Usage of relevant skills to mitigate damage. (Roll/damage reduction)
Without seeing the other side (The opponent in this case), you'll never be able to correctly and "scientifically" compare and evaluate the apparent "power" of a feat (cloud of steel in this case).
That being said, I will say the damage of this feat is either A) easily mitigated, avoided totally, if (no offense to these opponents) they knew how. Think about it.... Cloud of Steel has a relatively "short" range (it seemed that way, but shows 60' range, someone with a CW post the "longest" range skill distance please), and it has to be constantly used in succession....
Side note I'll post the CW fights later tonight.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
The control wizard range is 80'. So 25% more range.
I didn't know the damage numbers showed separate on crits and normal. Good to know. At that level, it is very strong. As I've said, I'm willing to wait till max level to see what happens.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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derresshMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Seriously PW should shut down all these rogue nerf posts..
Its already extremly easy to avoid rogue hits by moving, since all skills are stationary.
Why not remove every attackskill and let them wield a cussion that heals wizards and clerics when they hit them.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with this post. One of the lower level rogue abilities, which allows you to do a flurry of attack, continue to hit even when moved away from. As long as the flurry was started next to me, and I sprinted away, I was still getting hit 6 more times. THEN, they would start tossing daggers for 20% more of my HP in damage. To me, that is broken. I am not sure if other rogue abilities are broken now, as I only played rogue for betas 2 and 3. But obviously a thrown dagger should not hit for full damage.
My gripe would be for damage mitigation based on armor. It seems wholly underpowered, when cloth and leather armor mitigate only a few HP less than chain or plate. I was sporting 1100 gear points at level 19 on my GWF and still found myself taking more damage in PvP than my rogue took in beta 3. I don't remember gear points being enabled in BW3, or maybe didn't pay attention because I wasn't losing HP as quickly.
"A True Friend Stabs You in the Front."
~Oscar Wilde~
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Look at what the Great Weapon Fighter can do, he's so OP!"
~Andy Velasquez~
That depends entirely on the DM. Every pen and paper game I played was full PVP enabled; magic users had to actually pay attention to what they were doing also, otherwise they'd kill the group; characters who thought they were the gods gift to faerun and treated the group as such may not wake up from their rest.
The PVP in this game is an amusing diversion at best...to try and change core mechanics of classes based solely on an amusing diversion doesn't bode well for the game. Should it be removed entirely? Nah, I enjoy the occasional duel or capture and hold match, I wouldn't mind if they throw in some arena style matches at some point. I highly doubt you'll find there are hardcore PVPers only playing this game for the PVP.
Frankly, if a Devoted Cleric, Control Wizard, and Guardian Fighter can do as much DPS as my rogue, regardless of the situation, then I expect to be able to heal as well as a Devoted Cleric, CC as well as a control wizard, and raise my weapons to block attacks like a Guadian Fighter. Sounds pretty stupid, and it is...you don't balance DPS between different types of characters. No game has done that, because it makes no sense. So, going back to my original point, the disconnect here is people failing to understand what the roles are in D&D 4th edition. Rogue is the only STRIKER (pure dps) in the game right now.
(In before someone says the Great weapon fighter is a Striker; he is not. The keyword in GWF is FIGHTER, all Fighters in D&D 4e are classified as Defenders.)
Also, attempting to balance any class pre-60 is a joke. The majority of the people crying for nerfs on the forum are people who did teen PVP over the beta weekend. You don't balance classes according to the very first tier of PVP, regardless of whether I think there should or shouldn't be a balance. High burst DPS classes always dominate in lower tier PVP, because classes that rely on defensive abilities usually don't have them all yet.
While a DM can do anything they wish with a rule set, the rules of D&D are definitely more focused on PvE than PvP, unless the more recent versions of the rules have changed greatly from the earlier ones I am more familiar with.
Whether the PvP is an amusing diversion at best depends on the developers intent more so than the interpretation of the players. If they adjust the game to benefit PvP and it has a detrimental affect on PvE, that suggests they see it as more than just a diversion. Whether or not the game will appeal to the hardcore depends on the final status of PvP,which is unknown as the game will soon be entering open beta and it seems much remains to be done with it in general.
I am not suggesting classes should be balanced solely on damage. That would be ridiculous. Rather, for any kind of serious PvP, classes would have to be balanced such that all of their abilities when taken together are effectively on par with all of the abilities of other classes when taken together. Classes should have equally effective abilities, not equal abilities.
Since all of the abilities of each class would have to be balanced, it makes sense that the best balance would only exist at the peak levels of the game, as that is when classes have sufficient access to all abilities.
In any case, the developers are going to have to figure out and make known what their focus is, in particular what degree of that focus is directed to PvE versus PvP. If they see the game as mostly PvE, that part of the game shouldn't suffer too much for the sake of better PvP. If balanced PvP is more important to them, players can expect a lot of changes that may cause abilities to not work as well as they had in the PvE element of the game so as to benefit PvP.
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malkavianiteMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 30Arc User
In any case, the developers are going to have to figure out and make known what their focus is, in particular what degree of that focus is directed to PvE versus PvP. If they see the game as mostly PvE, that part of the game shouldn't suffer too much for the sake of better PvP. If balanced PvP is more important to them, players can expect a lot of changes that may cause abilities to not work as well as they had in the PvE element of the game so as to benefit PvP.
It shouldn't suffer at all for the sake of PvP. If they are serious about the PvP being a fairly major part of the game (and so far it pales in comparison to the PvE options), then the balancing of skills for PvP should be isolated completely from PvE balance. I've seen it far far too many times in the past, where something is buffed or nerfed in PvE and it has a negative impact on PvP or vice versa. Learn from past mistakes already! It can't possibly be that difficult to completely separate the two—certainly not as difficult as the complex and neverending task of trying to balancing classes/skills for both PvE and PvP at the same time.
On a slightly different note, I have no interest in the PvP of this game, only the PvE. Why should I suffer nerfs to my damage or utility just because said skill or class is considered OP in PvP (but not in PvE)? Do you really consider that to be fair? I certainly don't.
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daxx360Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
This is my problem with adding PvP to a D&D game. You make an MMO on the rule set of a game that's based entirely upon PvE, throw PvP in and have to completely mess up the PvE abilities of classes to allow all the different roles to be balanced with one another for PvP. I mean, hell, by adding in PvP you already had to change it so that your feet became planted as soon as you began using an ability because in the closed tests the control wizard was able to kite everyone around the arena without taking a single hit (can't remember the interview with it, but that was the reason behind it before they released the "official" statement of "We want movement to really mean something in combat so you now have to think about it more" line).
No matter what people think, the PvE aspect of each role will suffer for the sake of balance for PvP in an MMO based on a purely PvE system.
I don't like PVP. I don't know how many games I've played where my character got nerfed because of some problem with PVP balance. Games should be built so one isn't sacrificed to make the other balanced. If that means having completely different abilities for PVE and PVP well so be it.
I don't like PVP. I don't know how many games I've played where my character got nerfed because of some problem with PVP balance. Games should be built so one isn't sacrificed to make the other balanced. If that means having completely different abilities for PVE and PVP well so be it.
Very sad that i cannot give you +rep for this post.
The skill is fine, more nerfs/buffs will be coming probably for all classes, so lets just wait and see what happens. No one has played lvl 60 content yet (well, almost no one) so these threads are pointless.
Coming from a CW who both pwn'd and got pwn'd by TR's in pvp.
It blows my mind that people actually think this skill is overpowered.... You do realize it's limited by charges right? I don't think in any of my pvp matches on my rogue that I ever did more than 20% hp in all 12 charges of that skill. Was it useful for finishing off that 10% hp guy running away? Sure. Does that make it OP? Ehhh... I can't call people dumb for thinking that cause then my post will get deleted but I'd argue most un-biased people would say it's absolutely not overpowered.
If you're gonna make a "NERF ROGUES OMAGAD" post then at least make it about something mildly overpowered that Rogues have. Not a mediocre damage throw attack with 12 charges...
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malkavianiteMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 30Arc User
It blows my mind that people actually think this skill is overpowered.... You do realize it's limited by charges right? I don't think in any of my pvp matches on my rogue that I ever did more than 20% hp in all 12 charges of that skill. Was it useful for finishing off that 10% hp guy running away? Sure. Does that make it OP? Ehhh... I can't call people dumb for thinking that cause then my post will get deleted but I'd argue most un-biased people would say it's absolutely not overpowered.
If you're gonna make a "NERF ROGUES OMAGAD" post then at least make it about something mildly overpowered that Rogues have. Not a mediocre damage throw attack with 12 charges...
We have gone over this before, but since you are still incredulous, I'll summarize my feeling on why I think rogues should not have it and other important facts about the ability:
Strengths
1. It is a ranged attack given to a melee class.
2. It does anywhere from 25-35% damage to an opponent. We have vids of the 39 bracket where it has done 3500 damage to a plate class. (about 30% of total health)
3. Can throw all 12 in 4 seconds.
4. Strongest at will ranged attack in game.
Weakness
1. Has 12 charges that take 3 seconds to recharge each.
2. Damage can be reduced by dodging, blocking, evading, etc.
Now it is possible it won't scale well at 60, but since it seems to have been scaling consistently up to the 39 bracket and doing huge damage, it very well may scale well at 60.
When I was playing my rogue, it just struck me as odd having this ability at my disposal. Fighting the only class that threatened me, the CW, I realized I could simply exchange ranged attacks and have a huge advantage over him in doing so.
I'm not suggesting they neuter the rogue class like they did the GWF, the rogue will probably be my most played class. I am suggesting remove the ranged attack for a melee one. Most preferably some type of debuff or even low grade slow.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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jamescoskerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Why can't a trickster have a knife throwing abilty?
And why nerf them at all ?
My cw owned Tr's in pvp they are not op you just need to play better.
1. Apparently they can have ranged, since they do.
2. Not asking for a nerf, asking for a switch in abilities. Replace it with a melee.
3. I'm aware CWs can beat rogues as well as rogues can beat CWs. I played both extensively. I don't believe the TR should have an advantage at ranged over them however.
Throwing knives is an iconic ability of trickster rogue - even shown in the promotional video trailer where half elf rogue displays the abilities used in game.
Removing that ability they may as well as name it "the no-aim low-intellegence" rogue instead of trickster rogue.
Comments
I don't believe anyone is wanting the TR to lose all of their dps, I'm fine with how much they do. I just think it shouldn't be in the form of ranged. Especially not the highest damage at will ranged attack.
I've stated before that there may be scaling issues and at 60 the damage output is perfectly fine. Up to lvl 39 though I think it is way too strong.
There are some actual numbers to work with.... I think you would be hard pressed to argue that it is the best ranged skill in the game as it is channeled, must power up again, can be dodged, and roots you in place for 5 seconds. Just my opinion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OuGUIqn40Q
In a situation where there is a good deal of PvP, things change, if the game is at all serious about it. Classes have to be reasonably balanced one to the other (not solely by damage, but with the aggregate of their abilities) so that each class can effectively compete against every other class so that all classes can operate on a level playing field, with player skill being the primary factor that affects the chance of victory.
Comparisons can not be based only on role, as each class competes on its own ability against characters of every role, not only against others of the same role. If all classes aren't going to be balanced, the developers will have to point out that PvP is there merely for an entertaining diversion, and not for serious competition, and ensure that PvP gives no in game rewards.
You didn't actually link a vid. I'm fairly certain though it is Strabyx video when he 1v2s two GWFs and then kills them again on respawn. It is actually 4 seconds and about 25% of a plate wearing classes health from a non crit ranged attack.
Again, maybe it scales poorly at 60 and isn't an issue.
My bad, added the video. Looks to be a 1v1 at the point of cloud of steel
That depends entirely on the DM. Every pen and paper game I played was full PVP enabled; magic users had to actually pay attention to what they were doing also, otherwise they'd kill the group; characters who thought they were the gods gift to faerun and treated the group as such may not wake up from their rest.
The PVP in this game is an amusing diversion at best...to try and change core mechanics of classes based solely on an amusing diversion doesn't bode well for the game. Should it be removed entirely? Nah, I enjoy the occasional duel or capture and hold match, I wouldn't mind if they throw in some arena style matches at some point. I highly doubt you'll find there are hardcore PVPers only playing this game for the PVP.
Frankly, if a Devoted Cleric, Control Wizard, and Guardian Fighter can do as much DPS as my rogue, regardless of the situation, then I expect to be able to heal as well as a Devoted Cleric, CC as well as a control wizard, and raise my weapons to block attacks like a Guadian Fighter. Sounds pretty stupid, and it is...you don't balance DPS between different types of characters. No game has done that, because it makes no sense. So, going back to my original point, the disconnect here is people failing to understand what the roles are in D&D 4th edition. Rogue is the only STRIKER (pure dps) in the game right now.
(In before someone says the Great weapon fighter is a Striker; he is not. The keyword in GWF is FIGHTER, all Fighters in D&D 4e are classified as Defenders.)
Also, attempting to balance any class pre-60 is a joke. The majority of the people crying for nerfs on the forum are people who did teen PVP over the beta weekend. You don't balance classes according to the very first tier of PVP, regardless of whether I think there should or shouldn't be a balance. High burst DPS classes always dominate in lower tier PVP, because classes that rely on defensive abilities usually don't have them all yet.
Set it to 720p, quality gets a lot better. I hate uploading large files... which means I'm pretty stingy when it comes to encoding.
FYI, your numbers are wrong, you didn't include the critical damage, normal damage and critical damage appear on different sides. So in actual fact, I did 2339 normal damage and 1564 critical damage, totalling 3903 damage.
That being said, basing a judgement on the relative power of a skill on "non max level" usage is rather pointless. There are a number of factors that at that moment you have not considered. Namely,
1) Actual level of opponent relative to the attacker. (It matters a lot for stat/damage scaling in "low level" pvp)
2) Gear of opponent relative to the attacker. (Again it matters for scaling purposes)
3) Feat points into relevant damage or defensive feats. (Which can affect the numbers you see)
4) Usage of relevant skills to mitigate damage. (Roll/damage reduction)
Without seeing the other side (The opponent in this case), you'll never be able to correctly and "scientifically" compare and evaluate the apparent "power" of a feat (cloud of steel in this case).
That being said, I will say the damage of this feat is either A) easily mitigated,
Side note I'll post the CW fights later tonight.
I didn't know the damage numbers showed separate on crits and normal. Good to know. At that level, it is very strong. As I've said, I'm willing to wait till max level to see what happens.
80' normally, 90' on Magic Missile and Chill Strike with a specific Paragon feat maxed.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with this post. One of the lower level rogue abilities, which allows you to do a flurry of attack, continue to hit even when moved away from. As long as the flurry was started next to me, and I sprinted away, I was still getting hit 6 more times. THEN, they would start tossing daggers for 20% more of my HP in damage. To me, that is broken. I am not sure if other rogue abilities are broken now, as I only played rogue for betas 2 and 3. But obviously a thrown dagger should not hit for full damage.
My gripe would be for damage mitigation based on armor. It seems wholly underpowered, when cloth and leather armor mitigate only a few HP less than chain or plate. I was sporting 1100 gear points at level 19 on my GWF and still found myself taking more damage in PvP than my rogue took in beta 3. I don't remember gear points being enabled in BW3, or maybe didn't pay attention because I wasn't losing HP as quickly.
~Oscar Wilde~
"Look at what the Great Weapon Fighter can do, he's so OP!"
~Andy Velasquez~
Whether the PvP is an amusing diversion at best depends on the developers intent more so than the interpretation of the players. If they adjust the game to benefit PvP and it has a detrimental affect on PvE, that suggests they see it as more than just a diversion. Whether or not the game will appeal to the hardcore depends on the final status of PvP,which is unknown as the game will soon be entering open beta and it seems much remains to be done with it in general.
I am not suggesting classes should be balanced solely on damage. That would be ridiculous. Rather, for any kind of serious PvP, classes would have to be balanced such that all of their abilities when taken together are effectively on par with all of the abilities of other classes when taken together. Classes should have equally effective abilities, not equal abilities.
Since all of the abilities of each class would have to be balanced, it makes sense that the best balance would only exist at the peak levels of the game, as that is when classes have sufficient access to all abilities.
In any case, the developers are going to have to figure out and make known what their focus is, in particular what degree of that focus is directed to PvE versus PvP. If they see the game as mostly PvE, that part of the game shouldn't suffer too much for the sake of better PvP. If balanced PvP is more important to them, players can expect a lot of changes that may cause abilities to not work as well as they had in the PvE element of the game so as to benefit PvP.
It shouldn't suffer at all for the sake of PvP. If they are serious about the PvP being a fairly major part of the game (and so far it pales in comparison to the PvE options), then the balancing of skills for PvP should be isolated completely from PvE balance. I've seen it far far too many times in the past, where something is buffed or nerfed in PvE and it has a negative impact on PvP or vice versa. Learn from past mistakes already! It can't possibly be that difficult to completely separate the two—certainly not as difficult as the complex and neverending task of trying to balancing classes/skills for both PvE and PvP at the same time.
On a slightly different note, I have no interest in the PvP of this game, only the PvE. Why should I suffer nerfs to my damage or utility just because said skill or class is considered OP in PvP (but not in PvE)? Do you really consider that to be fair? I certainly don't.
No matter what people think, the PvE aspect of each role will suffer for the sake of balance for PvP in an MMO based on a purely PvE system.
A handkerchief will work equally well.
Also lets give every class the same skills/powers but lets just change the names and make the animations look different. Balance isn't it great!
TY PVP!
I like to PVP but I just think games should choose one or the other.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
'Bout sums it up, methinks.
[UGC] Kolde Acres (Discontinued)
I don't think it can be said any better.
*
^ Best i can do.
[UGC] Kolde Acres (Discontinued)
Agreed. Allowing complaints about PvP balance to affect PvE is one of the most effective ways to ruin a game.
Coming from a CW who both pwn'd and got pwn'd by TR's in pvp.
In other news, lost to someone in pvp to the forums because clearly it has to be the other guys class.
If you're gonna make a "NERF ROGUES OMAGAD" post then at least make it about something mildly overpowered that Rogues have. Not a mediocre damage throw attack with 12 charges...
Ha, nice one!
We have gone over this before, but since you are still incredulous, I'll summarize my feeling on why I think rogues should not have it and other important facts about the ability:
Strengths
1. It is a ranged attack given to a melee class.
2. It does anywhere from 25-35% damage to an opponent. We have vids of the 39 bracket where it has done 3500 damage to a plate class. (about 30% of total health)
3. Can throw all 12 in 4 seconds.
4. Strongest at will ranged attack in game.
Weakness
1. Has 12 charges that take 3 seconds to recharge each.
2. Damage can be reduced by dodging, blocking, evading, etc.
Now it is possible it won't scale well at 60, but since it seems to have been scaling consistently up to the 39 bracket and doing huge damage, it very well may scale well at 60.
When I was playing my rogue, it just struck me as odd having this ability at my disposal. Fighting the only class that threatened me, the CW, I realized I could simply exchange ranged attacks and have a huge advantage over him in doing so.
I'm not suggesting they neuter the rogue class like they did the GWF, the rogue will probably be my most played class. I am suggesting remove the ranged attack for a melee one. Most preferably some type of debuff or even low grade slow.
Why can't a trickster have a knife throwing abilty?
And why nerf them at all ?
My cw owned Tr's in pvp they are not op you just need to play better.
1. Apparently they can have ranged, since they do.
2. Not asking for a nerf, asking for a switch in abilities. Replace it with a melee.
3. I'm aware CWs can beat rogues as well as rogues can beat CWs. I played both extensively. I don't believe the TR should have an advantage at ranged over them however.
Removing that ability they may as well as name it "the no-aim low-intellegence" rogue instead of trickster rogue.