(In before someone says the Great weapon fighter is a Striker; he is not. The keyword in GWF is FIGHTER, all Fighters in D&D 4e are classified as Defenders.)
You are objectively wrong. The Slayer is a Fighter build from the Essentials series that wields two-handed weapons and is a Striker.
You are objectively wrong. The Slayer is a Fighter build from the Essentials series that wields two-handed weapons and is a Striker.
Regardless the GWF IS a Defender in DnD 4e.
Here is a quote from the D&D Player's Handbook:
Fighter
CLASS TRAITS
Role: Defender. You are very tough and have the exceptional
ability to contain enemies in melee.
Power Source: Martial. You have become a master of
combat through endless hours of practice, determination,
and your own sheer physical toughness.
Key Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom,
Constitution
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail,
scale; light shield, heavy shield
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee,
simple ranged, military ranged
Bonus to Defense: +2 Fortitude
Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges per Day: 9 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: From the class skills list below, choose
three trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Athletics (Str), Endurance (Con), Heal
(Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Streetwise (Cha)
Build Options: Great weapon fighter, guardian fighter
Class Features: Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority,
Fighter Weapon Talent
"A True Friend Stabs You in the Front."
~Oscar Wilde~
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Look at what the Great Weapon Fighter can do, he's so OP!"
~Andy Velasquez~
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najitoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited April 2013
I havent played this game yet (was too late for beta weekends) so I dont know how 'significant' a ranged attack a Rouge has in here BUT I've played many rouge-like characters as if they are almost a ninja and so they should be able to throw kunai's, daggers, bombs or even shoot arrows with less damage than hunters. It's just my opinion and I didnt have the time to read all the comments here so sorry if this case has been closed already.
Thus the blade is swung down-
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Although the GWF is a striker, I don't think that is the official wiki.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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slayademonstroMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited April 2013
You said all Fighters are Defenders. That's the only thing I took issue with.
And though the Great Weapon Fighter build has a defender role, its damage is much more inline with strikers by virtue of the gap in damage that's created by high [w] powers between sword&board and two handed weapons in 4e. There were a number of calls to reduce their damage in the first couple years of the game.
We have gone over this before, but since you are still incredulous, I'll summarize my feeling on why I think rogues should not have it and other important facts about the ability:
All this Discussion is about your feelings and what you think, but you can't accept the rest opinions.
I'm not suggesting they neuter the rogue class like they did the GWF, the rogue will probably be my most played class. I am suggesting remove the ranged attack for a melee one. Most preferably some type of debuff or even low grade slow.
Here pretty much you want a nerf and take out the range attacks. A class that is a Striker, and only have 1 range attack, because really if a TR stay in any Boss red AOE, he's pretty much out of the fight.
1. Apparently they can have ranged, since they do.
2. Not asking for a nerf, asking for a switch in abilities. Replace it with a melee.
3. I'm aware CWs can beat rogues as well as rogues can beat CWs. I played both extensively. I don't believe the TR should have an advantage at ranged over them however.
I guess you forgot about #1
#3 One on One i do believe the CW got the advantage over TR If they rotate the CC's, not matter if the TR have range.
But at the end, reading all your posts I notice that everything is about your Feelings.
I would say rogues do about 15% more damage in the dungeon runs I've done, however I think control wizard is a stronger class overall because we bring so much CC and utiltiy on top of our damage.
And this got posted by a guy that level his CW to 50.
You'd come off as snobbish and incorrect because the wiki you linked isn't even the official one. Bravo good sir. You showed me. This is the official wiki from the frontpage: http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter
Should I tell you to read the first line? Or would that be snobbish?
I posted a direct quote from the D&D Players Handbook stating GWF are Defenders. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Cryptic said they're working very closely with Wizards of the Coast to make sure they get as close to an authentic DnD experience as possible in an MMO setting. They also wouldn't be able to use all the DnD lore.etc without Wizards approval and they aren't going to approve of them changing the fundamentals of their classes. For some reason I highly doubt they're going to make a class then decide it's role is polar opposite of what the DnD handbook says it is.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
All this Discussion is about your feelings and what you think, but you can't accept the rest opinions.
Here pretty much you want a nerf and take out the range attacks. A class that is a Striker, and only have 1 range attack, because really if a TR stay in any Boss red AOE, he's pretty much out of the fight.
I guess you forgot about #1
#3 One on One i do believe the CW got the advantage over TR If they rotate the CC's, not matter if the TR have range.
But at the end, reading all your posts I notice that everything is about your Feelings.
I think I made it fairly clear it was based on feelings in the form of my opinion, if you are trying to discredit my argument based on that, well that is fine. I have backed my feelings up with data though, you can find it and quote that as well if you like.
Since I'm making the argument against it, I don't expect you to counter with data or even your feelings why TRs should have the strongest ranged attack in game, but I would appreciate it if you did.
Official wiki and DnD Player's Handbook disagrees with you.
Also Magic Missile is far more powerful than Cloud Steel when charges are taken into consideration. You're just hell bent on Rogues being overpowered and that's fine. Everyones entitled to their opinion wrong as it may be.
Quote from CW forums from lvl 50 CW player
Rogues can actually do more aoe damage/trash clearing damage than wizards can at 50. As for single target, it really isn't that far apart if you use the build I have. My arcane missles hit for 30% more damage any by level 60 I think that my damage single target will be very close to that of a rogue and I will probably have higher overall damage, although I don't think CWs should given our other strengths.
Sounds like Magic Missiles might be the stronger ranged attack? I'd love to see your "data" proving otherwise though.
I think I made it fairly clear it was based on feelings in the form of my opinion, if you are trying to discredit my argument based on that, well that is fine. I have backed my feelings up with data though, you can find it and quote that as well if you like.
Since I'm making the argument against it, I don't expect you to counter with data or even your feelings why TRs should have the strongest ranged attack in game, but I would appreciate it if you did.
Were is the Data? were is the Pic's showing your data?
Official wiki and DnD Player's Handbook disagrees with you.
Also Magic Missile is far more powerful than Cloud Steel when charges are taken into consideration. You're just hell bent on Rogues being overpowered and that's fine. Everyones entitled to their opinion wrong as it may be.
Sigh, one of the primary roles of the GWF is an aoe striker. Whatever though, it doesn't really matter.
Since I'm making the argument against it, I don't expect you to counter with data or even your feelings why TRs should have the strongest ranged attack in game, but I would appreciate it if you did.
I do not agree that it is the strongest ranged attack in the game. It's effective, and makes sense for the TR to have it and develop it since at high levels they're about as durable as wet tissue-paper in a stand-up fight so they need the ability to have a solid ranged attack or they devolve into "stab-stab-stab-die." That it works so well in PvP is largely indicative of players neither working as a team nor having learned how to handle different attacks. With a solid CW on the team, it becomes far less of an issue.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Were is the Data? were is the Pic's showing your data?
Go watch Strawbyx video starting at about 35 seconds. He does 3900 damage in 4 seconds with his knives. I don't know of any other ranged attack that can accomplish that amount of damage in such a short time span. Here it is below:
Sigh, one of the primary roles of the GWF is an aoe striker. Whatever though, it doesn't really matter.
Where are you getting this information from? Cause I've listed official sources saying you're wrong. Yet you insist you're right based on... Nothing? Granted GWF has Striker as secondary role. But note the word "Secondary"
Also yes he did 3900 damage in 6 seconds but guess what? Now he has 0 charges and has to wait before he can use the ability again. 36 seconds in fact for full charges. No other ranged attack can accomplish that damage in that time because no other class is a striker. You seem to not understand how this game and its mechanics works. I still stand by what I said Magic Missile is a better attack due to charges. But even if it wasn't. No other class is a striker so your argument is invalid. You're complaining that a dps classes ranged attack does more damage than a CC/healer/tank classes ranged attacks. Do you not see how this is flawed? If rogue ranged attack was doing more than an Archer Ranger's attacks then YES that's overpowered without question and should be nerfed. More damage than a CONTROL wizard? Working as intended.
Go watch Strawbyx video starting at about 35 seconds. He does 3900 damage in 4 seconds with his knives. I don't know of any other ranged attack that can accomplish that amount of damage in such a short time span. Here it is below:
So that is your data, one video... I notice the other 3 players were kinda loss or really didn't know how to play their class... But that it just one video. Show me More data than just 1 video.
You seem to not understand how this game and its mechanics works. I still stand by what I said Magic Missile is a better attack due to charges. But even if it wasn't. No other class is a striker so your argument is invalid. You're complaining that a dps classes ranged attack does more damage than a CC/healer/tank classes ranged attacks. Do you not see how this is flawed? If rogue ranged attack was doing more than an Archer Ranger's attacks then YES that's overpowered without question and should be nerfed. More damage than a CONTROL wizard? Working as intended.
You seem to not understand that in pvp your role is irrelevant, no one attacks the GF first because he is the tank class. In pvp every class should be able to beat any class.
And no, MM could not do 4k damage in the same amount of time.
You seem to not understand that in pvp your role is irrelevant, no one attacks the GF first because he is the tank class. In pvp every class should be able to beat any class.
This is exactly why PvP has no place in a DnD MMO but that's besides the point. The role still matters and still defines the class in PvP environments. I'm not sure how you could possibly think roles are irrelevant in PvP. What do you suggest Cryptic does? Just give all classes the same damage so PvP can be "Balanced" in your fantasy world? That's not going to happen.
Clerics provide healing and pretty good AoE damage in PvP
CW provide MASSIVE amounts of CC (too much imo) and some AoE damage as well
GF are excellent at defending nodes and being super hard to kill which is very important imo
GWF are somewhere between GF and TR being more tanky but being able to put out decent damage
TR are obviously the bursty single target assassin class that everyone loves to hate.
Idk about you but I can see legitimate uses for all of those roles in PvP. Especially when people play as a TEAM and play off each others strengths instead of everyone trying to be a lone wolf 1v1 killer.
In pvp every class should be able to beat any class.
No, they should not. PvP isn't the core of the game and demanding "balance" for the sake of PvP is to homogenize the classes. The roles do matter and how they are played does matter. Smart PvP team play is the goal.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
No, they should not. PvP isn't the core of the game and demanding "balance" for the sake of PvP is to homogenize the classes. The roles do matter and how they are played does matter. Smart PvP team play is the goal.
The problem is most people don't get to choose their team. Balances in Pvp should have no effect in pve, and roles don't matter. There is nothing to force to proper playing of roles in pvp. Pvp is supposed to be about player skill, not I pick this class so I win.
The problem is most people don't get to choose their team. Balances in Pvp should have no effect in pve, and roles don't matter. There is nothing to force to proper playing of roles in pvp. Pvp is supposed to be about player skill, not I pick this class so I win.
Then you're suggesting that there be different skills in PvP vs. PvE, effectively talking about two different games. PvP is about player equipment and skill, including the skill of working with others. Of course roles are enforced in PvP, unless you're suggesting that entering the PvP arena suddenly means CW's have stealth and TR's have shields. Controllers remain controllers and strikers remain strikers.
Now if you want to suggest a homogenized one-on-one dueling experience with rigid rules (think modern day fencing) which would involve players developing a particular set of skills that work in that context, great. Go ahead and propose something like that and maybe it will be added to the game. But demanding the removal of a skill from the TR just because it is effective is silly.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
The problem is most people don't get to choose their team. Balances in Pvp should have no effect in pve, and roles don't matter. There is nothing to force to proper playing of roles in pvp. Pvp is supposed to be about player skill, not I pick this class so I win.
So let me get this straight. You're arguing because some people don't play their roles correctly and aren't forced to play their role that they should just make everyone do the same damage? Your reasoning makes absolutely no sense to me.
PvP in MOST mmo's boils down to Rock Paper Scissors and it's balanced because of team play. When I played WoW if an equally geared/skilled Frost Mage dueled an Arms Warrior the Mage would win 99.9% of the time. Does that make mage overpowered? Not really cause the game isn't balanced for 1v1 pvp. No mmo is balanced for 1v1 pvp. That mage could go into arena with a priest and a rogue for 3v3 and end up facing that same warrior with a resto druid and a lock and get absolutely destroyed. Welcome to how PvP is balanced in MMORPG's.
My point is that a GF is not a tank in pvp because in pvp there is no agro, and the CW is not a cc'er cus all his stuns are reduced to 1/3 the amount of time as pve, stunning for 1 second was already proved useless in this game, which is why they were increased for pve content.
Different skills are not necessary between pvp and pve, just a balancing of those skills. And not just the TR, across all classes. I don't think its unreasonable at all that if the CW gets nerfed stun duration, than a TR gets nerfed damage.
Do not let the PWE people lie to you. They are not trying to make this a close to the PnP rules as possible. 4th edition D&D was built to appeal to the MMO crowd. The Table top Gamers flamed the game so bad it became a black eye to the company. Now that their trying to make the game that was designed to appeal to MMO gamers, into a MMO their hacking it to shreds and saying that this is how they want to do it. Its not 4th edition D&D at all. Look at any player's handbook to see the differences.
My point is that a GF is not a tank in pvp because in pvp there is no agro, and the CW is not a cc'er cus all his stuns are reduced to 1/3 the amount of time as pve, stunning for 1 second was already proved useless in this game, which is why they were increased for pve content.
Different skills are not necessary between pvp and pve, just a balancing of those skills. And just the TR, across all classes.
You're not calling for balancing, you're calling for nerfing one class for the sole purpose of PvP in a way that doesn't hold true to the rest of the system the game is based on.
A GF is still a tank in PvP just as a CW is still a controller. Since there are already some balance changes in PvP such as decreased stun time, it requires better coordination and players paying more attention. That makes it boil down to far more player skill. If you're getting shredded by TR's at the same level, it's time to try some new tactics.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
My point is that a GF is not a tank in pvp because in pvp there is no agro, and the CW is not a cc'er cus all his stuns are reduced to 1/3 the amount of time as pve, stunning for 1 second was already proved useless in this game, which is why they were increased for pve content.
Different skills are not necessary between pvp and pve, just a balancing of those skills. And not just the TR, across all classes.
Dude... Are you trolling? Seriously you don't believe the stuff you're saying do you? GF can stand on a node to defend it and FORCE the enemies to attack him or they won't be able to take the node. Do you not understand this concept? and LOL at CW CC being useless. You must not have PVP'd AT ALL. If the enemy team has 2 CW's that both focus you you're practically locked down indefinitely. There's a reason they lowered the duration for PVP CC.
I would argue that in this game the TR is the rock/paper/and scissors in one in pvp. In 1v1 they outperform every class...in 3v3 three TR will beat any other 3 man team and in a 5v5 5 TR will beat any other 5 man team. They have so many options to escape and their damage output is so great there is no way to counter them unless you outnumber them. That is not balance...
Dude... Are you trolling? Seriously you don't believe the stuff you're saying do you? GF can stand on a node to defend it and FORCE the enemies to attack him or they won't be able to take the node. Do you not understand this concept? and LOL at CW CC being useless. You must not have PVP'd AT ALL. If the enemy team has 2 CW's that both focus you you're practically locked down indefinitely. There's a reason they lowered the duration for PVP CC.
Any class can stand on a node and TR's do it more effectively by having the ability to kill anyone that comes to take it.
Dude... Are you trolling? Seriously you don't believe the stuff you're saying do you? GF can stand on a node to defend it and FORCE the enemies to attack him or they won't be able to take the node. Do you not understand this concept? and LOL at CW CC being useless. You must not have PVP'd AT ALL. If the enemy team has 2 CW's that both focus you you're practically locked down indefinitely. There's a reason they lowered the duration for PVP CC.
What if they don't have 2 CW, and yes a GF can, but he is never the primary target if there is more than person there one is he.
How much do clothes cost in the Matrix?
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So that is your data, one video... I notice the other 3 players were kinda loss or really didn't know how to play their class... But that it just one video. Show me More data than just 1 video.
The other players performance has no bearing on the straight damage output of the ability, they are simply the target dummy showing the potential of the knives. A plate wearing target dummy at that.
You asked for data to support my claims and I showed it. You can keep moving the goalpost all you want, but I have supplied data.
Comments
You are objectively wrong. The Slayer is a Fighter build from the Essentials series that wields two-handed weapons and is a Striker.
Here is a quote from the D&D Player's Handbook:
Fighter
CLASS TRAITS
Role: Defender. You are very tough and have the exceptional
ability to contain enemies in melee.
Power Source: Martial. You have become a master of
combat through endless hours of practice, determination,
and your own sheer physical toughness.
Key Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom,
Constitution
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail,
scale; light shield, heavy shield
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee,
simple ranged, military ranged
Bonus to Defense: +2 Fortitude
Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges per Day: 9 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: From the class skills list below, choose
three trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Athletics (Str), Endurance (Con), Heal
(Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Streetwise (Cha)
Build Options: Great weapon fighter, guardian fighter
Class Features: Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority,
Fighter Weapon Talent
Official Wiki backed by PWE. I'd say read the first line, but I might come across as being snobbish.
~Oscar Wilde~
"Look at what the Great Weapon Fighter can do, he's so OP!"
~Andy Velasquez~
Although the GWF is a striker, I don't think that is the official wiki.
And though the Great Weapon Fighter build has a defender role, its damage is much more inline with strikers by virtue of the gap in damage that's created by high [w] powers between sword&board and two handed weapons in 4e. There were a number of calls to reduce their damage in the first couple years of the game.
All this Discussion is about your feelings and what you think, but you can't accept the rest opinions.
Here pretty much you want a nerf and take out the range attacks. A class that is a Striker, and only have 1 range attack, because really if a TR stay in any Boss red AOE, he's pretty much out of the fight.
I guess you forgot about #1
#3 One on One i do believe the CW got the advantage over TR If they rotate the CC's, not matter if the TR have range.
But at the end, reading all your posts I notice that everything is about your Feelings.
And this got posted by a guy that level his CW to 50.
Should I tell you to read the first line? Or would that be snobbish?
I posted a direct quote from the D&D Players Handbook stating GWF are Defenders. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Cryptic said they're working very closely with Wizards of the Coast to make sure they get as close to an authentic DnD experience as possible in an MMO setting. They also wouldn't be able to use all the DnD lore.etc without Wizards approval and they aren't going to approve of them changing the fundamentals of their classes. For some reason I highly doubt they're going to make a class then decide it's role is polar opposite of what the DnD handbook says it is.
I think I made it fairly clear it was based on feelings in the form of my opinion, if you are trying to discredit my argument based on that, well that is fine. I have backed my feelings up with data though, you can find it and quote that as well if you like.
Since I'm making the argument against it, I don't expect you to counter with data or even your feelings why TRs should have the strongest ranged attack in game, but I would appreciate it if you did.
Also Magic Missile is far more powerful than Cloud Steel when charges are taken into consideration. You're just hell bent on Rogues being overpowered and that's fine. Everyones entitled to their opinion wrong as it may be.
Quote from CW forums from lvl 50 CW player Sounds like Magic Missiles might be the stronger ranged attack? I'd love to see your "data" proving otherwise though.
Were is the Data? were is the Pic's showing your data?
Sigh, one of the primary roles of the GWF is an aoe striker. Whatever though, it doesn't really matter.
I do not agree that it is the strongest ranged attack in the game. It's effective, and makes sense for the TR to have it and develop it since at high levels they're about as durable as wet tissue-paper in a stand-up fight so they need the ability to have a solid ranged attack or they devolve into "stab-stab-stab-die." That it works so well in PvP is largely indicative of players neither working as a team nor having learned how to handle different attacks. With a solid CW on the team, it becomes far less of an issue.
Go watch Strawbyx video starting at about 35 seconds. He does 3900 damage in 4 seconds with his knives. I don't know of any other ranged attack that can accomplish that amount of damage in such a short time span. Here it is below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OuGUIqn40Q
Also yes he did 3900 damage in 6 seconds but guess what? Now he has 0 charges and has to wait before he can use the ability again. 36 seconds in fact for full charges. No other ranged attack can accomplish that damage in that time because no other class is a striker. You seem to not understand how this game and its mechanics works. I still stand by what I said Magic Missile is a better attack due to charges. But even if it wasn't. No other class is a striker so your argument is invalid. You're complaining that a dps classes ranged attack does more damage than a CC/healer/tank classes ranged attacks. Do you not see how this is flawed? If rogue ranged attack was doing more than an Archer Ranger's attacks then YES that's overpowered without question and should be nerfed. More damage than a CONTROL wizard? Working as intended.
So that is your data, one video... I notice the other 3 players were kinda loss or really didn't know how to play their class... But that it just one video. Show me More data than just 1 video.
You seem to not understand that in pvp your role is irrelevant, no one attacks the GF first because he is the tank class. In pvp every class should be able to beat any class.
And no, MM could not do 4k damage in the same amount of time.
Clerics provide healing and pretty good AoE damage in PvP
CW provide MASSIVE amounts of CC (too much imo) and some AoE damage as well
GF are excellent at defending nodes and being super hard to kill which is very important imo
GWF are somewhere between GF and TR being more tanky but being able to put out decent damage
TR are obviously the bursty single target assassin class that everyone loves to hate.
Idk about you but I can see legitimate uses for all of those roles in PvP. Especially when people play as a TEAM and play off each others strengths instead of everyone trying to be a lone wolf 1v1 killer.
No, they should not. PvP isn't the core of the game and demanding "balance" for the sake of PvP is to homogenize the classes. The roles do matter and how they are played does matter. Smart PvP team play is the goal.
The problem is most people don't get to choose their team. Balances in Pvp should have no effect in pve, and roles don't matter. There is nothing to force to proper playing of roles in pvp. Pvp is supposed to be about player skill, not I pick this class so I win.
Then you're suggesting that there be different skills in PvP vs. PvE, effectively talking about two different games. PvP is about player equipment and skill, including the skill of working with others. Of course roles are enforced in PvP, unless you're suggesting that entering the PvP arena suddenly means CW's have stealth and TR's have shields. Controllers remain controllers and strikers remain strikers.
Now if you want to suggest a homogenized one-on-one dueling experience with rigid rules (think modern day fencing) which would involve players developing a particular set of skills that work in that context, great. Go ahead and propose something like that and maybe it will be added to the game. But demanding the removal of a skill from the TR just because it is effective is silly.
PvP in MOST mmo's boils down to Rock Paper Scissors and it's balanced because of team play. When I played WoW if an equally geared/skilled Frost Mage dueled an Arms Warrior the Mage would win 99.9% of the time. Does that make mage overpowered? Not really cause the game isn't balanced for 1v1 pvp. No mmo is balanced for 1v1 pvp. That mage could go into arena with a priest and a rogue for 3v3 and end up facing that same warrior with a resto druid and a lock and get absolutely destroyed. Welcome to how PvP is balanced in MMORPG's.
Different skills are not necessary between pvp and pve, just a balancing of those skills. And not just the TR, across all classes. I don't think its unreasonable at all that if the CW gets nerfed stun duration, than a TR gets nerfed damage.
You're not calling for balancing, you're calling for nerfing one class for the sole purpose of PvP in a way that doesn't hold true to the rest of the system the game is based on.
A GF is still a tank in PvP just as a CW is still a controller. Since there are already some balance changes in PvP such as decreased stun time, it requires better coordination and players paying more attention. That makes it boil down to far more player skill. If you're getting shredded by TR's at the same level, it's time to try some new tactics.
Any class can stand on a node and TR's do it more effectively by having the ability to kill anyone that comes to take it.
What if they don't have 2 CW, and yes a GF can, but he is never the primary target if there is more than person there one is he.
The other players performance has no bearing on the straight damage output of the ability, they are simply the target dummy showing the potential of the knives. A plate wearing target dummy at that.
You asked for data to support my claims and I showed it. You can keep moving the goalpost all you want, but I have supplied data.