You're not calling for balancing, you're calling for nerfing one class for the sole purpose of PvP in a way that doesn't hold true to the rest of the system the game is based on.
A GF is still a tank in PvP just as a CW is still a controller. Since there are already some balance changes in PvP such as decreased stun time, it requires better coordination and players paying more attention. That makes it boil down to far more player skill. If you're getting shredded by TR's at the same level, it's time to try some new tactics.
Didn't mean to specify just TR's there, and corrected it. And its isn't about tactics, its about a huge dps margin that tactics aren't going to close. A group of 3 or 4 people should not be needed to take down 1 class.
Stop trying to nerf PVE skills for PVP reasons! Just stop! I'm so sick of PVP whining ruining every **** class in every MMO. It's killing what good games we have, if any, these days. Seriously....stop...
I would argue that in this game the TR is the rock/paper/and scissors in one in pvp. In 1v1 they outperform every class...in 3v3 three TR will beat any other 3 man team and in a 5v5 5 TR will beat any other 5 man team. They have so many options to escape and their damage output is so great there is no way to counter them unless you outnumber them. That is not balance...
I beg to differ. I lost many matches where my team had more rogues than the enemy team. Enemy team had 3 CW's and constantly locked down our entire team. We lost MISERABLY. CW's can just teleport away 3 times every time you get anywhere near them and just CC you in between to keep you at bay while their team destroys you.
Most of the top end PVP players from other games are in agreement that CW are significantly more overpowered in PVP than TR. People just like to cry rivers about rogue classes in every game cause its frustrating to die to them.
Didn't mean to specify just TR's there, and corrected it. And its isn't about tactics, its about a huge dps margin that tactics aren't going to close. A group of 3 or 4 people should not be needed to take down 1 class.
If you need 3-4 people to kill 1 person of any class you're awful at the game. Yes I've seen the videos of rogues 3v1'ing. Those players are awful and should not be used in any PVP balance arguments. I've watched a video where 3 people LITERALLY attacked a GF with his shield up taking nearly 0 damage while a rogue killed all 3 of them back to back from behind without ANY of them turning around to attack the rogue. You can't try to argue pvp balance with those kind of "Special" players behind the keys.
Stop trying to nerf PVE skills for PVP reasons! Just stop! I'm so sick of PVP whining ruining every **** class in every MMO. It's killing what good games we have, if any, these days. Seriously....stop...
I don't want skills nerfed for pve at all, it is not that difficult to scale down skills for just pvp, its done in many games.
Didn't mean to specify just TR's there, and corrected it. And its isn't about tactics, its about a huge dps margin that tactics aren't going to close. A group of 3 or 4 people should not be needed to take down 1 class.
In my experience so far (and who knows what will change in a few days) that is not the case. Respectfully, I have only seen TR's seem overpowered when the people fighting them just weren't playing all that well. It is indeed about tactics and the quality of play.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
In my experience so far (and who knows what will change in a few days) that is not the case. Respectfully, I have only seen TR's seem overpowered when the people fighting them just weren't playing all that well. It is indeed about tactics and the quality of play.
This x1000
From a Rogue's perspective some people I was able to kill extremely easily. Could've killed them with my eyes closed and 1 arm tied behind my back. I fought clerics that didn't move an inch the entire time I hit them. They just stood there static in 1 spot and tried to heal themselves through my damage. I fought CW's that didn't teleport a single time. I fought other rogues that never stealthed or dazed me or anything. It felt like they did nothing but spam at-wills on me. There is an ABUNDANCE of people that have no idea how to PvP in this game and I get the feeling a lot of those people are the ones with their panties in a knot on the forums lately.
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited April 2013
tacc4990
Never did like that excuse that you assume people who complain on the forums are the same people who play badly in game. I know A dozen other people who have played through the betas. Yet I am the only one that posts on these forums, and I am the only one that has forced myself to try all 5 classes and to use moves people flame on the forums like Reaping Strike to see if they actually do have redeeming qualities. And that one does not.
If new players dont understand the mechanics of the game and are having a hard time knowing what their class can do. Then this is a problem for the Devs to fix. Gaming should be intuitive to a degree. There should not be only one build for a class or only one successful tactic to use. This also reflects my biggest Beef with the GWF, I had stores of green gear with, crit, power, armor, pen defense, movement, life steal, all trying various methods of what gear to uses with what moves just to be able to solo level in Beta 4 between levels of 30-40. And when I ran out of silver to buy additional potions I stopped.
This is why I am very vocal about my displeasure with the GWF, because I tried everything to make it work, and with all the different types of gear I had and all the moves they give you nothing significantly stood out as a better tactic than the other.
This at least means the moves and gear mods are somewhat balanced BUT it also means the GWF can't hold his own no matter what you do.
So long story short I take offense by people who assume those that complain on the forums are bad players. So I'll just assume you are the rogue Ego trip type play that thinks single target DPS striker should be topping the damage charts vs all the AOE Damage dealer out there while being able to avoid all hits in super stealth and paralyze enemies with CC.
i'd like to add something about GF suppoesdly being useless in pvp:
when i've played pvp as a CW i could force rogues off a node by just ranging at them from outside it, but a GF takes no damage from ranged attacks with it's shield up forcing you to call in help or go in to counter the tower-taking (putting yourself at melee range).
also the only rogues that could kill me were those that i didn't see coming and managed to get a stun on me before i could react. in an open face 1vs1 they could never kill me:
if they stealth i would just spam an AoE or teleport (lol 3* teleport), if they run at me i would push them away and choke them. if you see them coming they have no chanche assuming similar skill level unless you like had all your encounters on cooldown and were out of stamina.
Ah the usual "Nerf rogues!" thread present on the forums of all MMOs that have a stealth class and which can never be balanced for pvp purposes because the very mechanics behind it leave little room for tweaking.
btw people are confusing what a tank is anyway, a tank is able to hold aggro and keep enemies off other players asses by being a meatshield, the rogue can survive encounters by not being targeted or running away faster than other classes. that's not "tanking".
Hey, first the knife-throwing ability is very rogue-like. Second, it is not OP, as it does significantly less damage than the rogue's melee attacks, as well as quickly using charges that take a while to come back. The at-will does not make the rogue a ranged class, but just a melee class with one decent ranged attack.
Also, some people (such as myself) enjoy the rogue because it has both ranged (however weak it is) and melee. If it did not have that at-will, I would play the control wiz as I do not enjoy purely melee classes. And since I don't care for fighting with a control wiz, I might not be so interested in the game until they introduced a physical ranged dps class.
So please, cryptic, don't get rid of that skill.
"Truth is absolute, so if you truly seek it, you can find only one answer."
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takigushiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 19Arc User
edited April 2013
I may be wrong but everytime I used it my overall dps went to the floor. Its not nearly as powerful as other ranged classes IMO.
Also, it's a trickster rogue, throwing weapons are part of their lore.
I may be wrong but everytime I used it my overall dps went to the floor. Its not nearly as powerful as other ranged classes IMO.
I don't think you're wrong, as it isn't the primary means the TR does damage. It's to get out of the line of fire before dashing back in then going stab happy on an enemy.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
People voicing their concern about something on a gaming forum is usually the minority. ****ty players that had a bad day and want to vent their frustration and anger because of their sher incompetance.
Just let them ***** and ignore their posts and everything will be fine.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Would like to say that the title is a little mis-leading now. Its seems to have turned into a "balance the classes for pvp" topic, and not the original.
That's a shame, I always liked having a little color in my games.
How much do clothes cost in the Matrix?
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skinstonMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited April 2013
To those stating "rogues are not a ranged class" I'd like you to name a ranged class. Please Enlighten me,what class would hurl throwing knives, shoot a bow wither precision, and dodge incoming blows instead of blocking? That does remind me of a thief, ranger, or rogue. Pretty sure in all the times I've played any pen & paper games it wasn't much sense to give a fighting class a bow unless it was for a first strike. Sorry for your Player vs Player loss, but my Rogue isn't up to par to how bad *** he should be in adventuring, you know, that thing D&D is about.
To those who think ranged should be taken away from TR.. your hurting me... I like to think of my TR when he uses range as 'James Coburn' in the movie '' The Magnificent Seven ''.. he was a fighter, but you could see he was especially awesome with knife throwing..eheh..The fact is.., this isn't wow..it's D&D and you should be able to make a Rouge with proficient knife throwing skill in that world, furthermore, the dmg from that skill is not that great... i mean really... it does fare better if fire lots of knives in a row i.e..(it's scalable with every hit 'in succession') but you do need the stamina pts for it, which is shared by other skill as well..so you have a choice to make and that is only to be able to do a little more dmg on most likely a single target... So, what I'm thinking is this.. those who complain, were either pin against that skill in 2 ways.. either at low level in pvp... or.. when they have low hit pts after a tough fight and (of course by then) a close proximity TR with the skill would be able to finish em off , providing the TR had the respite for it. So, stop complaining about that skill when so many others, in fact, will complain about so many other thing than this puny skill, however effective , in the hands of one who knows, when and how to use it, basically .. and that's all there is to this skill really..it is a utility skill..(to finish off, aggro/tag , or use off low lvl) you won't survive much with it as a main skill in game..so get over yourselves whiners...and just know that it's the real life player that makes this skill effective.. now that you know what it does..if you find yourself fighting against a TR in pvp and your hit pts are getting low..just drink a ' PVP Health potion ' that you can buy at merchant for cheap Astral Diamonds..is all..and move on...
roenhawkMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited April 2013
I love how people complain about PvP and the game has not even been out in Open Beta for more than a day. They did this with GW2 and still complain about Thief this and Thief that. 90% of the players in PvP don’t know how to play their class beyond skill mashing their abilities while forgetting to dodge, block or mitigate the attack in the first place. They also sit in the AoE’s and don’t bother to remove or mitigate all the dots they have on them. If your dumb enough to stand in place and not interrupt, avoid or block the DPS then you deserve to die.
RoenHawk
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direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Gonna have to come up with something better than "I lost to it so it needs to be weaker", if you're going to try to appeal to game changes. This isn't World of Warcraft, where you get killed by 'X', then run to the boards and demand sweeping changes all for the glory of your e-peen kill count.
I'm sick to death of the PVP community flooding from game to game, bringing an endless deluge of complaining, and calls for nerfs to whatever they couldn't two shot or stun lock to death.
and at the risk of ad hominem, for friggin' sake its ROGUES, not rouges.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
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thevlakaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
jesus christ, 18 pages on a troll topic?
seriously wtf.
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bejita231Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited April 2013
The ranged at wills of a rogue should be very weak, they are not a ranged class, they are given skills like stealth and a clone to make up for the fact that it has has slightly less armor and has to be in melee, giving it a spammable strong ranged attack defeats the entire purpose and challenge of playing the class properly, add my vote for nerfing rogues ranged at wills
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thevlakaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Gonna have to come up woth something better than "I lost to it so it needs to be weaker", if you're going to try to appeal to game changes. This isn't World of Warcraft, where you get killed by 'X', then run to the boards and demand sweeping changes all for the glory of your e-peen kill count.
I'm sick to death of the PVP community flooding from game to game, bringing an endless deluge of complaining, and calls for nerfs to whatever they couldn't two shot or stun lock to death.
and at the risk of ad hominem, for friggin' sake its ROGUES, not rouges.
this exactly.
guess 12 yr olds and their whiny opinions and call for nerfs outweigh those sincerely invested in their classes
Comments
Didn't mean to specify just TR's there, and corrected it. And its isn't about tactics, its about a huge dps margin that tactics aren't going to close. A group of 3 or 4 people should not be needed to take down 1 class.
Most of the top end PVP players from other games are in agreement that CW are significantly more overpowered in PVP than TR. People just like to cry rivers about rogue classes in every game cause its frustrating to die to them.
If you need 3-4 people to kill 1 person of any class you're awful at the game. Yes I've seen the videos of rogues 3v1'ing. Those players are awful and should not be used in any PVP balance arguments. I've watched a video where 3 people LITERALLY attacked a GF with his shield up taking nearly 0 damage while a rogue killed all 3 of them back to back from behind without ANY of them turning around to attack the rogue. You can't try to argue pvp balance with those kind of "Special" players behind the keys.
I don't want skills nerfed for pve at all, it is not that difficult to scale down skills for just pvp, its done in many games.
In my experience so far (and who knows what will change in a few days) that is not the case. Respectfully, I have only seen TR's seem overpowered when the people fighting them just weren't playing all that well. It is indeed about tactics and the quality of play.
From a Rogue's perspective some people I was able to kill extremely easily. Could've killed them with my eyes closed and 1 arm tied behind my back. I fought clerics that didn't move an inch the entire time I hit them. They just stood there static in 1 spot and tried to heal themselves through my damage. I fought CW's that didn't teleport a single time. I fought other rogues that never stealthed or dazed me or anything. It felt like they did nothing but spam at-wills on me. There is an ABUNDANCE of people that have no idea how to PvP in this game and I get the feeling a lot of those people are the ones with their panties in a knot on the forums lately.
Never did like that excuse that you assume people who complain on the forums are the same people who play badly in game. I know A dozen other people who have played through the betas. Yet I am the only one that posts on these forums, and I am the only one that has forced myself to try all 5 classes and to use moves people flame on the forums like Reaping Strike to see if they actually do have redeeming qualities. And that one does not.
If new players dont understand the mechanics of the game and are having a hard time knowing what their class can do. Then this is a problem for the Devs to fix. Gaming should be intuitive to a degree. There should not be only one build for a class or only one successful tactic to use. This also reflects my biggest Beef with the GWF, I had stores of green gear with, crit, power, armor, pen defense, movement, life steal, all trying various methods of what gear to uses with what moves just to be able to solo level in Beta 4 between levels of 30-40. And when I ran out of silver to buy additional potions I stopped.
This is why I am very vocal about my displeasure with the GWF, because I tried everything to make it work, and with all the different types of gear I had and all the moves they give you nothing significantly stood out as a better tactic than the other.
This at least means the moves and gear mods are somewhat balanced BUT it also means the GWF can't hold his own no matter what you do.
So long story short I take offense by people who assume those that complain on the forums are bad players. So I'll just assume you are the rogue Ego trip type play that thinks single target DPS striker should be topping the damage charts vs all the AOE Damage dealer out there while being able to avoid all hits in super stealth and paralyze enemies with CC.
when i've played pvp as a CW i could force rogues off a node by just ranging at them from outside it, but a GF takes no damage from ranged attacks with it's shield up forcing you to call in help or go in to counter the tower-taking (putting yourself at melee range).
also the only rogues that could kill me were those that i didn't see coming and managed to get a stun on me before i could react. in an open face 1vs1 they could never kill me:
if they stealth i would just spam an AoE or teleport (lol 3* teleport), if they run at me i would push them away and choke them. if you see them coming they have no chanche assuming similar skill level unless you like had all your encounters on cooldown and were out of stamina.
Also, some people (such as myself) enjoy the rogue because it has both ranged (however weak it is) and melee. If it did not have that at-will, I would play the control wiz as I do not enjoy purely melee classes. And since I don't care for fighting with a control wiz, I might not be so interested in the game until they introduced a physical ranged dps class.
So please, cryptic, don't get rid of that skill.
Also, it's a trickster rogue, throwing weapons are part of their lore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxXHNigHfnw
I don't think you're wrong, as it isn't the primary means the TR does damage. It's to get out of the line of fire before dashing back in then going stab happy on an enemy.
Now we know why you are complaining about the TR so much.
Yes this was really happen.
Just let them ***** and ignore their posts and everything will be fine.
Seriously? You are taking a quote from another thread and then misrepresenting how it is applied? Kind of an odd way to make a point.
Its not the content that bring attention its number of posts so its clearly gonig to be reduced ~_~.
Good news. The rouge class has been removed.
I'm sick to death of the PVP community flooding from game to game, bringing an endless deluge of complaining, and calls for nerfs to whatever they couldn't two shot or stun lock to death.
and at the risk of ad hominem, for friggin' sake its ROGUES, not rouges.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
seriously wtf.
guess 12 yr olds and their whiny opinions and call for nerfs outweigh those sincerely invested in their classes