Odd. All the rogue fanatics were happy when they nerfed the cleric for beta 3. Now they get the nerf bat tossed their way and all of a sudden, everyone is a bunch of whiners LOL. Never saw one post from a Rogue fanatic defending NOT nerfing the cleric after it happend, but saw tons saying "GOOD they needed it"
No class is being nerfed. They are being "Adjusted" during BETA !!! and tested. "NERFING" comes after the game is live and launched. Open beta is next. They can and will make more "adjustments" not only after Beta 4, but again after Open Beta.
problem i see with most rogues is they simply do not know how to play the class. They want to be the primary damage dealer and tank all rolled into one. Rogues I group with do not play the tank roll. They swoop in, strike hard, and get out. They let the GF do the tanking. They do not try to be first hitters on the Boss's and mini boss's but more like the Rocket coming in after the ground forces have the opponents attention. then BOOOM.
Rogues simply need to learn to play their class. No more button smashing with no threat of dying. Now they need to think. QQ more.
I DID defend clerics and write a couple posts about the cleric nerf needing to be reworked. And YES I will play a rogue over a cleric, since day one of me hearing about this game. The point of what I wrote here was that people NOT playing the class to max level or understanding how to play the class are THEN whining about how the class works is why some of these nerfs "sorry, adjustments" are occuring.
If you can't be constructive in your criticism, go back to world-of-whiners.
Good CW's are saying that in their experience, they did MORE overall than rogues, or in the least, it is close. The OP even makes the statement that, again in his experience, "yeah, I was doing dungeons with a really skilled rogue the other day and that was the one that did about 15% more damage than me. I did dungeons with another rogue at 50 earlier in the day and literally doubled his damage, generally I think 15% is about where rogues dps will fall given equal skill, and I agree that that margin is arguably too low given the CC and utility that wizards have."
3x rogues +2x cleric or 4x rogues and celric thats how will end game dungeons will run if they dont buff up damage of gwf,gf and cw since as is now no big use of them in party they only slow u dawn a lot
no sir wrong very wrong, rogues are squishy and don't last long against end bosses without someone holding the aggro. seems to me you are either a GWF player or a CW that think they should be the dmg dealing class.....you want wizzy that does ton of dmg, just wait for the scourge warlock you'll get your wish. and the GWF just needs to be where it was on BW3 not nerfed to hell like they did on BW4.
When will people get it? The rogue is a striker class. Not the mage...not the GWF...the rogue. I've even seen a cleric complaining that he was out damaged by a rogue. Ffs. Let it go. CW is for AoE/Control, GWF is for AoE damage, Rogue is for ST damage. Please, for the love of god, stop trying to nerf every class that performs better than you at a job that you are NOT designed to do.
First, a couple of admissions. This was my first beta weekend, so a lot of it was spent just learning the game. Second, I only played any class up to level 20 so I would have a chance to test more of them. If you want to scream that I didn't play to level 50 so I don't know anything, then fine, but I don't think the game should only be rated and balanced at level 50. I think it should be fun at all levels. That said...
I see a lot of people saying the Rogue is not over powered because in the last 5 levels of the game, you can't 1 shot everything. Is that honestly how you believe a balanced class should play? This class is balanced because some of the classes, at the very end of the game almost catch up? That doesn't sound like balance to me. Many of you say you don't want to see the class damage changed. Actually, I can't say I do either. This IS the damage class. However, I think there should be more risk involved in dealing that damage. I don't think the Rogue is over powered because it can stealth in and wipe the floor with a named boss. That's the job of the class. Personally, I think the class is overpowered because it can walk into a group of 6 or 8 minions out of stealth and never even have to bother to watch his health. I thought the risk present to the Rogue was much too low in larger groups. The biggest reason for this is the stun that comes in at, what level 3? I don't think has any place in a DPS class and certainly no place at such a low level. Once you could stun your prey, the game was much to easy. Add in stealth at level 10 so you could sneak attack AND stun and it was laughable.
I know, I know, wait until I hit level 50 or 75 or 10,000 then it really gets hard. The thing is, when I play to the max level, I should have learned to master the class along the way. That certainly isn't required playing the Rogue. At least not in my experience. I love the DPs the Rogue does, but the damage mitigation through stuns and stealth on top of a class that runs Dexterity as a primary stat is just too much, especially when leveling up. If the class doesn't balance until level 50 that doesn't mean it's okay because eventually it works. It should work at all levels, or what is the point of even having them? Just create a game that lets you start at 50.
I disagree the way this class is presented today will end with teams of max level Rogues roaming around destroying everything. What will happen is you will get loads of people that run Rogues to max level because you can do it blind drunk screaming CHARGE and mashing a couple of buttons and then the class will be ruined. People won't learn to mater the strenths of the class, they will just blindly run around wiping the floor with every mob they come across. Play with a couple people that can get a character to high levels without learning the true skills of the class and the entire class will suffer. It won't be "Let's grab 4 Rogues and steam roll!!!" It will be "Oh man, no way I'm letting one of those hacks in my group ever again." I think leaving the class as is would be a disservice to Rogues. They may not be too powerful at high levels, but at low levels, I can't imagine that anyone thinks they are well balanced. They certainly do not require any skill or craft or strategy to play at lower levels and I think that's sad.
I suppose if I really got to put a bug in the ear of the Devs, I would also want them to swap the silly dodge out for the GWF dash. But that's just because it makes a lot more thematic sense to me for this class. *shrug*
Oh, I also played a GWF and a CW over the weekend. I didn't really put anything about them in this because... well, it's not their thread.
I see a lot of people saying the Rogue is not over powered because in the last 5 levels of the game, you can't 1 shot everything. Is that honestly how you believe a balanced class should play? This class is balanced because some of the classes, at the very end of the game almost catch up? That doesn't sound like balance to me.
Really ?? I think your full of it , or just so low level you don't know better than to listen to the tear jerker's on the forums. 1 shotting every thing and taking no dmg? ok you might do that on one mob if you pop your daily but that's going to take some time to get back. other than that there is no way you don't take dmg and can 1 shot, even the GF takes dmg ( now bear in mind he said this was without stealth ) , I was full dps stats, level 50 and I was not 1 shotting a thing until I was trolling with some friends in lower areas.
Simply there is no build that makes u immune to dmg and allows you to one shot every mob no matter the lvl without a daily and without using stealth.
dash for dodge ?? you never played any D&D did u ? evasion is part of a rogue build , why ? , simple because they dodge the traps, they are agile they don't just run through them .......well unless there evasion is so high they simple don't need to worry any more. it is ppl like your self going on about how to change a class that they have barely or never played, not to mention suggesting things that are not inline at all with the lore of the game. Its the same thing every time ...my character is gimp nerf every thing else till im the best, I don't care if I don't know why.
Next we will have DC crying that they cant top dps .....oh wait that already happened......
You know, I think most players today are a bunch of useless sniveling cretins without the intelligence of a rock that end up ruining most games. How come their answer is always "NERF" this or that. How come its never "BUFF" this or that.
My Cleric(Healer) can't out DPS Rogue(DPS)!!! WTF is that? It's idiocy at it's finest is what it is.
The players that always whine about DPS classes doing their job, are the ones that cause developers to water a game down so much that the game is not even worth playing anymore because it takes no skill, and rewards them with everything for no effort.
Please do not listen to the whiners devs.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You know, I think most players today are a bunch of useless sniveling cretins without the intelligence of a rock that end up ruining most games. How come their answer is always "NERF" this or that. How come its never "BUFF" this or that.
My Cleric(Healer) can't out DPS Rogue(DPS)!!! WTF is that? It's idiocy at it's finest is what it is.
The players that always whine about DPS classes doing their job, are the ones that cause developers to water a game down so much that the game is not even worth playing anymore because it takes no skill, and rewards them with everything for no effort.
Please do not listen to the whiners devs.
I would personally rather see a few classes get some buffs, most notably the GWF. However, having leveled a TR, the above underlined part of your post is how I felt when leveling as compared to the other classes.
I disagree the way this class is presented today will end with teams of max level Rogues roaming around destroying everything. What will happen is you will get loads of people that run Rogues to max level because you can do it blind drunk screaming CHARGE and mashing a couple of buttons and then the class will be ruined.
*Snip*
Heh try that at later levels you will see lots of party wipes and dead rogues.
I DID defend clerics and write a couple posts about the cleric nerf needing to be reworked. And YES I will play a rogue over a cleric, since day one of me hearing about this game. The point of what I wrote here was that people NOT playing the class to max level or understanding how to play the class are THEN whining about how the class works is why some of these nerfs "sorry, adjustments" are occuring.
unfortunately, the devs are listening too much to people who are barely hitting the 20's, and thinking gameplay at 25 is the same at 50. The Devs have also thrown down the reasoning behind "adjustments" which make no sense to most of the playing community. yes, clerics were able to solo without using a ton if any healing pots, but they failed to look at the fact that it took clerics 2-3x longer to kill that same group of mobs and this was only up to around level 30 ish.
Now they add pvp, using the same skill dynamics as pve and the whole thing is FUBAR. I take solo play as just that. something to do while leveling up. How the classes perform during solo play means little, as long as they can. sure, some classes will outperform others. that is granted. How they perform in dungeons is another story. I want my rogue doing tons of damage, I want my fighter taking tons of damage. I want my cleric to heal without dying from agro. Each class has it's own unique class feature, that when grouped with the other classes, makes a dungeon doable. As long as no single class can solo the dungeon, makes it fair for all.
pvp on the other hand is where things are getting hosed. Any skill nerf to limit pvp interactions, adversely affects pve play. This is where they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the pooch. They are trying to make pvp an integral part of the game, through glory and item exchanges from pvp play. They game adjustments are going to get out of hand to the point that I feel many people will simply go back to playing their current MMO in a few months. The game is fun and exciting because it's new, what it offers at level 60 to keep people wanting to continue playing remains to be seen. Whether the game becomes Rogue city, as it stands now, is likely the case. There seems to be little incentive to play the other classes atm, when rogues are superior in all aspects of the game as the devs have "adjusted" the classes currently.
I hope the game does well. I have been waiting a while to enjoy a new DnD game so my expectations are quite high.
Why is this thread still a thing? In PvE rogues are the ones doing the most damage to a single enemy so they need as much power as possible. It's fine because the players are working together to overcome a dungeon or boss. You nerf rogues, you screw over everyone else because now they can't do damage.
In PvP matches are a chaotic mess of people attacking one another before a GWF comes in and stomps the area. It's impossible to tell who's doing what unless you get frozen by a friggen CW. Saying rogues are overpowered is like throwing angry five cats at one another and saying the black one's too strong because it's a few inches bigger.
...for a cat a few inches is a lot...it's reach advantage and weight advantage...than multiply this for all the hits they trrow each other and for that long time! Are u crazy?!...and if it's black it has the fear advantage too...
I'm very happy with where Rogues are at this point. Remarkable damage but not enough to insta-gib players in PvP, actually takes time and skill to kill someone instead of a single faceroll on the keyboard out of stealth. Their survivability is spectacular but only if you do it right, taking a single hit really knocks them off their feet. All in all the class seems well balanced.
...for a cat a few inches is a lot...it's reach advantage and weight advantage...than multiply this for all the hits they trrow each other and for that long time! Are u crazy?!...and if it's black it has the fear advantage too...
Fear advantage the white one is immune to! Do I REALLY need to explain "five angry cat" metagame? It's first grade!
Sarcasm aside, the classes feel just fine. Rogues do ridiculous amounts of damage, CW holds mobs in place and trolls people in pvp, GWF bunches mobs up and chops them into bits, GF chuckles at your attempt to hurt it, cleric draws aggro and dies like a bi- I mean heals allies and keeps them fighting fit. If we must use the "OP" card for PvE, then only when one class can do the job of another class do we have a problem. If TRs can tank just as well as GFs, we have problems.
Sarcasm aside, the classes feel just fine. Rogues do ridiculous amounts of damage, CW holds mobs in place and trolls people in pvp, GWF bunches mobs up and chops them into bits, GF chuckles at your attempt to hurt it, cleric draws aggro and dies like a bi- I mean heals allies and keeps them fighting fit. If we must use the "OP" card for PvE, then only when one class can do the job of another class do we have a problem. If TRs can tank just as well as GFs, we have problems.
I do agree that the cleric is still drawing too much aggro.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
I'm very happy with where Rogues are at this point. Remarkable damage but not enough to insta-gib players in PvP, actually takes time and skill to kill someone instead of a single faceroll on the keyboard out of stealth. Their survivability is spectacular but only if you do it right, taking a single hit really knocks them off their feet. All in all the class seems well balanced.
What's fun is squaring off with another good rogue 1 on 1. Usually I find one that has sneaked through the battle and to the nearby flag; he's nervous and worried because eventually someone is going to come for him when they notice the flag going down. At that point it's like chess: do you show yourself and let him try to stealth away? Or force him to pop his stealth first and then pop your own? Who will land the first dazing strike?
I dueled with a halfie named FAKE during Bw4 who was brilliant, we were practically 1 on 1 the whole match and it was an even game (until he brought his cleric friend, cheater). It certainly wasn't button-mashing, there was skill involved. He roll-dodged my dazing strike more than once and got the upper hand. Anyway, the next PvP match he and I were on the same team. That was a complete skunk of a match.
They already nerfed Rogue thanks to u whiners, now you want even further nerfing?!!!!! For ****** sake, the Rogue ISNT supposed to be a weak little coward. We're supposed to be single-target heavy-hitters, not some halfbaked GWF.
I agree, GWF was half-baked this last beta. Rogues don't need nerfing, other classes need buffing.
"A True Friend Stabs You in the Front."
~Oscar Wilde~
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Look at what the Great Weapon Fighter can do, he's so OP!"
~Andy Velasquez~
During BW4 i had a group with 3 rogues, 1 GF and one cleric at the level 30 dungeon Mad Dragon boss. No way to beat him because of the lack of control, range damage and/or aoe. The adds constantly killed the cleric, or stunned him so the dragon aoe got him, etc. Might have been the players, but hey, i would have loved to bring my CW instead so I could have cc'd adds, do damage to the boss and wiped the floor with dragon scales.
Rogues have crazy damage, yes, maybe it even needs to be lowered, but hell, rogues can't do anything at all except hit hard, which doesn't help when adds keep spawning ever 15 sec or when the boss has a cloud of poison on him half the time.
My CW easily killed 4-5 packs of enemies even if one was a giant demon in helms hold. Sure, it took some time, but my hp didn't budge. But my trickster almost got steamrolled by the giant demon (the one to the left when you get into helms hold) if i accidentally aggro-ed another group or two. Chugging pots only helps so much when you have no stealth left, pot on 12 sec cd, and 10+ mobs that do a quarter of your hp in damage each hit.
Also, with a CC-specced CW i still out damaged everyone in dungeons, didn't really matter what level they were.
Playing the trickster is like saying "Hey, give me lots of beer so i don't have to worry about what happens tonight", because if you take a hit there won't be another morning but at least you had fun.
Playing the trickster is like saying "Hey, give me lots of beer so i don't have to worry about what happens tonight", because if you take a hit there won't be another morning but at least you had fun.
Cause the people proclaiming there is nothing wrong with the rogue, and that it's not over powered, simply want to play the power class in the game. They are not concerned with the power of the rogue being in line with the other classes, they simply wish to steamroll through, laughing at everyone not playing a rogue.
It is the darling class of the Devs and they simply refuse to touch it, instead, nerfing every other class and making sure they come no where near the rogues survivability. Will other classes be played ? yes. someone will always play another class. The problem is, in a few months after release, everyone will be playing rogues. The game will look like Neverwinter, plague of rogues. Not a balanced DnD game, but a game where rogues rule.
Take rogues out of launch, and see how the beta rogue players enjoy playing the other classes if they think there is nothing OP about the rogue. Then we can all point laugh and say "learn to play the class and stop complaining."
This +100. Go watch the pvp youtube posted on your thief forum. The class is OP and face the fact other people want to enjoy playing another class so balancing is needed.
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micdarauMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm assuming you're being sarcastic in saying "TR sucks" here.
Yes, the TR stomps 3 GWFs in a row. It's not because they're overpowered, it's because not only was the GWF class depressingly underpowered in GBW4, but those GWFs were phenomenally terrible. They barely use any of their abilities, and they run around like a chicken with its head cut off while the TR chucks daggers instead of staying close to keep the pressure.
Cause the people proclaiming there is nothing wrong with the rogue, and that it's not over powered, simply want to play the power class in the game. They are not concerned with the power of the rogue being in line with the other classes, they simply wish to steamroll through, laughing at everyone not playing a rogue.
It is the darling class of the Devs and they simply refuse to touch it, instead, nerfing every other class and making sure they come no where near the rogues survivability. Will other classes be played ? yes. someone will always play another class. The problem is, in a few months after release, everyone will be playing rogues. The game will look like Neverwinter, plague of rogues. Not a balanced DnD game, but a game where rogues rule.
Take rogues out of launch, and see how the beta rogue players enjoy playing the other classes if they think there is nothing OP about the rogue. Then we can all point laugh and say "learn to play the class and stop complaining."
Those are some powerful exaggerations you're claiming. The TR is not "the darling class of the devs." I have no idea where you got that from, other than your subjective opinion that Rogues are OP.
***
I've received some flak recently for my opinion that Rogues are not OP. Hilarious, depressing, but not at all surprising.
Funny part is, my first thread about Rogues was a suggested nerf. That thread has now sunk to psychosis-inducing depths of irrationality, but it's still there if you need proof of this.
I believe the Trickster Rogue to be balanced at present. TR's are still topping kill/death and damage charts more so than any other class, but that's to be expected from a class designed entirely around killing quickly.
My observation as of BW4 is that TR's are stomping a lot of face in PvP and excelling in PvE because the mechanics of the class are very familiar. There's nothing revolutionary about the TR's tactics relative to every other MMORPG that has an assassin-type class (try to name 3 that don't). On top of that, the TRs tactics are very intuitive; hit the enemy really hard, really fast, then get out of the way of their counter attack. Anyone who plays First Person Shooters is familiar with the mentality necessary to play a Rogue.
Most of the other classes have mechanics that are far less similar to other games. GFs have active Blocking, which isn't entirely unprecedented (TERA) but still very rare. GWFs are stuck in a gray area about their intended role, leaving players mired in mediocrity from class features/powers that don't synergize as well as other classes. CWs are particularly unique and complex, and Clerics... Oh boy, Clerics... The radical departure from the traditional "healer" archetype has left the class's community in a most remarkably foul mood.
It's not with any intent to insult when I say that players need to get better at playing their class. Believe it or not, I'm talking to a lot of you Rogues as well, because even the TR takes skill to use effectively. There's always more to learn, you can always improve. So don't assume that just because one class looks more powerful now, when the game hasn't even come out of Closed Beta yet, that class needs a nerf.
A necessary point of clarity before the rage begins: My main is a Cleric. I'm not defending my own class here so that I can "play the power class." I got a TR up to level 16 on Sunday of BW4 simply because I enjoy discussing the class and felt it necessary to get some experience with it. I'm not even a very good TR, stealth classes just aren't my style, but the theory behind it is fun to explore.
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Why should there be ANY bonus while stealthed? Shouldn't the bonus be that your basically invisible and can choose when or if a fight starts? With any stat adjustments being negative to account for this HUGE advantage?
Man people have been *****ing against rogues since the dawn of time. They're a twitch-based class in a genre that traditionally has had a lazy approach to combat. PvP is fast paced and classes with high skillcaps (like rogues) will always own the competition. It's been this way for 12 years since DaoC practically started the stealther-craze/hate. Not gonna change any time soon might as well get used to it.
I'm assuming you're being sarcastic in saying "TR sucks" here.
Yes, the TR stomps 3 GWFs in a row. It's not because they're overpowered, it's because not only was the GWF class depressingly underpowered in GBW4, but those GWFs were phenomenally terrible. They barely use any of their abilities, and they run around like a chicken with its head cut off while the TR chucks daggers instead of staying close to keep the pressure.
To be fair, I had them dazed (Thus, them not being able to use skills), and when they weren't I was "avoiding" them. That said, I don't deny that the selection of powers they had chosen for those fights were not ideal.
My observation as of BW4 is that TR's are stomping a lot of face in PvP and excelling in PvE because the mechanics of the class are very familiar. There's nothing revolutionary about the TR's tactics relative to every other MMORPG that has an assassin-type class (try to name 3 that don't). On top of that, the TRs tactics are very intuitive; hit the enemy really hard, really fast, then get out of the way of their counter attack. Anyone who plays First Person Shooters is familiar with the mentality necessary to play a Rogue.
Most of the other classes have mechanics that are far less similar to other games. GFs have active Blocking, which isn't entirely unprecedented (TERA) but still very rare. GWFs are stuck in a gray area about their intended role, leaving players mired in mediocrity from class features/powers that don't synergize as well as other classes. CWs are particularly unique and complex, and Clerics... Oh boy, Clerics... The radical departure from the traditional "healer" archetype has left the class's community in a most remarkably foul mood.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned DC Universe Online (DCO), NWO actually resembles DCO a lot more than TERA does. Having played DCO and PvPed extensively in it before Macroers destroyed PVP in that game. Without derailing, I have to say Cryptic can draw a lot on what made PvP "fun" in DCO. Another thing that Cryptic needs to take a page out of is TERA's separation of what each power/skill does in PvP and PvE.
In TERA, say skill X does this in PvE - Stun for 8s + 1000 dmg, a 8s stun in PvP most would agree would be ridiculous, their solution is simple, upon attacking another player, skills revert to PvP skills, such that skill X does this in PvP - stun 2s + 300dmg. This is a little more complex for TERA as it has "open-world PvP" but for NWO I see no reason why alternate effects of a power/skill couldn't be implemented. Since all PvP is instanced (No "open-world"), simply add power/skills modifiers upon entering a PvP state (when zooning into PvP instances), this is already done for Level/Stat scaling when you enter a PvP Level bracket, where level 10s will be "boosted" to level 19. I honestly don't see why it can't be done, and hasn't been done. This would shut a lot of PvE & PvP whiners about who nerfs powers/skills.
(Apart from the obvious issues with GWF's in BW4) The "bigger picture" problem with GWF's is the same issue Blizzard had with Paladins in WOW, especially during vanilla and TBC period (more so than druids). They had talents specialising in Healing/Tanking/DPS, albeit a larger focus on the former. Put together with the enigma (before mass dispel) of having divine shield = total invulnerability for X amount of time. Focusing on anything other than healing meant you won't being picked up for raids, as others did it better. The difference was noticeable "apparently" (I beg to differ, I was ret dps and kept up with most in MC/Onyxia raids- to the annoyance of many).
Like wise, Cryptic has the same issue with GWF's, hybrid classes will almost always perform worst than any pure class. You trade specialisation for utility, and you have to accept that. Again I do not deny that as of BW4 said utility is non-existent, but asking for parity is ridiculous.
Why should there be ANY bonus while stealthed? Shouldn't the bonus be that your basically invisible and can choose when or if a fight starts? With any stat adjustments being negative to account for this HUGE advantage?
(In PvP anyway) Your over estimation of the relative power of stealth is misguided, with a relatively short duration the ability to choose when/how to start fights is rare at best.
and ask you, in comparison how long do I spend in stealth, to being out of it.
Then ask yourself, if stealth was such a big advantage, why am I not taking advantage of it and only using it as a Dazing strike quickener in a predetermined combination of powers sequence.
If anything, the class feature that increased damage while in stealth promoted a certain "stealth" based game play, while now stealth is reduced to gimicky usage.
D&D NW already has separation of PvP and PvE powers.
This was done when they strengthened control for CW. They made it so that the control works a lot longer on mosters while on players it works for lesser time.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned DC Universe Online (DCO), NWO actually resembles DCO a lot more than TERA does. Having played DCO and PvPed extensively in it before Macroers destroyed PVP in that game. Without derailing, I have to say Cryptic can draw a lot on what made PvP "fun" in DCO. Another thing that Cryptic needs to take a page out of is TERA's separation of what each power/skill does in PvP and PvE.
I've never actually played DCO or TERA, but others on the forums have mentioned both in relation to certain NWO mechanics. I understand both games had some success for a time, so if NWO can learn from that past experience then it's sure to improve!
Ughhh. I hate nerfs... I hate them... Part of the reason I hate them is my fault.. I am not an uber player like most everyone else... You are all likely better players than I am so I don't mind if a skill makes me feel a little god like.... I come on here to be a super powerful rogue.. or maybe a powerful wizard... but I understand they have different roles and I enjoy how each can pique my imagination... I work, have a young son and a wife and I try to be active too... I don't have 40 hours a week to devote to gaming but this is a release for me and I like it to be fun when I come on.. balancing is fine with me as I don't want the game to be a cake walk but nerfing because of people complaining about being out dps'd by the striker is silly.... if you play the class and think its so OP then choose not to use the skills that are OP if you are too good for the game.. part of this, for me anyway, is the lore of dnd and the role the rogue plays...
Comments
I DID defend clerics and write a couple posts about the cleric nerf needing to be reworked. And YES I will play a rogue over a cleric, since day one of me hearing about this game. The point of what I wrote here was that people NOT playing the class to max level or understanding how to play the class are THEN whining about how the class works is why some of these nerfs "sorry, adjustments" are occuring.
Good CW's are saying that in their experience, they did MORE overall than rogues, or in the least, it is close. The OP even makes the statement that, again in his experience, "yeah, I was doing dungeons with a really skilled rogue the other day and that was the one that did about 15% more damage than me. I did dungeons with another rogue at 50 earlier in the day and literally doubled his damage, generally I think 15% is about where rogues dps will fall given equal skill, and I agree that that margin is arguably too low given the CC and utility that wizards have."
no sir wrong very wrong, rogues are squishy and don't last long against end bosses without someone holding the aggro. seems to me you are either a GWF player or a CW that think they should be the dmg dealing class.....you want wizzy that does ton of dmg, just wait for the scourge warlock you'll get your wish. and the GWF just needs to be where it was on BW3 not nerfed to hell like they did on BW4.
I see a lot of people saying the Rogue is not over powered because in the last 5 levels of the game, you can't 1 shot everything. Is that honestly how you believe a balanced class should play? This class is balanced because some of the classes, at the very end of the game almost catch up? That doesn't sound like balance to me. Many of you say you don't want to see the class damage changed. Actually, I can't say I do either. This IS the damage class. However, I think there should be more risk involved in dealing that damage. I don't think the Rogue is over powered because it can stealth in and wipe the floor with a named boss. That's the job of the class. Personally, I think the class is overpowered because it can walk into a group of 6 or 8 minions out of stealth and never even have to bother to watch his health. I thought the risk present to the Rogue was much too low in larger groups. The biggest reason for this is the stun that comes in at, what level 3? I don't think has any place in a DPS class and certainly no place at such a low level. Once you could stun your prey, the game was much to easy. Add in stealth at level 10 so you could sneak attack AND stun and it was laughable.
I know, I know, wait until I hit level 50 or 75 or 10,000 then it really gets hard. The thing is, when I play to the max level, I should have learned to master the class along the way. That certainly isn't required playing the Rogue. At least not in my experience. I love the DPs the Rogue does, but the damage mitigation through stuns and stealth on top of a class that runs Dexterity as a primary stat is just too much, especially when leveling up. If the class doesn't balance until level 50 that doesn't mean it's okay because eventually it works. It should work at all levels, or what is the point of even having them? Just create a game that lets you start at 50.
I disagree the way this class is presented today will end with teams of max level Rogues roaming around destroying everything. What will happen is you will get loads of people that run Rogues to max level because you can do it blind drunk screaming CHARGE and mashing a couple of buttons and then the class will be ruined. People won't learn to mater the strenths of the class, they will just blindly run around wiping the floor with every mob they come across. Play with a couple people that can get a character to high levels without learning the true skills of the class and the entire class will suffer. It won't be "Let's grab 4 Rogues and steam roll!!!" It will be "Oh man, no way I'm letting one of those hacks in my group ever again." I think leaving the class as is would be a disservice to Rogues. They may not be too powerful at high levels, but at low levels, I can't imagine that anyone thinks they are well balanced. They certainly do not require any skill or craft or strategy to play at lower levels and I think that's sad.
I suppose if I really got to put a bug in the ear of the Devs, I would also want them to swap the silly dodge out for the GWF dash. But that's just because it makes a lot more thematic sense to me for this class. *shrug*
Oh, I also played a GWF and a CW over the weekend. I didn't really put anything about them in this because... well, it's not their thread.
Really ?? I think your full of it , or just so low level you don't know better than to listen to the tear jerker's on the forums. 1 shotting every thing and taking no dmg? ok you might do that on one mob if you pop your daily but that's going to take some time to get back. other than that there is no way you don't take dmg and can 1 shot, even the GF takes dmg ( now bear in mind he said this was without stealth ) , I was full dps stats, level 50 and I was not 1 shotting a thing until I was trolling with some friends in lower areas.
Simply there is no build that makes u immune to dmg and allows you to one shot every mob no matter the lvl without a daily and without using stealth.
dash for dodge ?? you never played any D&D did u ? evasion is part of a rogue build , why ? , simple because they dodge the traps, they are agile they don't just run through them .......well unless there evasion is so high they simple don't need to worry any more. it is ppl like your self going on about how to change a class that they have barely or never played, not to mention suggesting things that are not inline at all with the lore of the game. Its the same thing every time ...my character is gimp nerf every thing else till im the best, I don't care if I don't know why.
Next we will have DC crying that they cant top dps .....oh wait that already happened......
My Cleric(Healer) can't out DPS Rogue(DPS)!!! WTF is that? It's idiocy at it's finest is what it is.
The players that always whine about DPS classes doing their job, are the ones that cause developers to water a game down so much that the game is not even worth playing anymore because it takes no skill, and rewards them with everything for no effort.
Please do not listen to the whiners devs.
I would personally rather see a few classes get some buffs, most notably the GWF. However, having leveled a TR, the above underlined part of your post is how I felt when leveling as compared to the other classes.
Defenders=LESS dps, LESS squishy
rogue=striker
fighter =defender
Heh try that at later levels you will see lots of party wipes and dead rogues.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
unfortunately, the devs are listening too much to people who are barely hitting the 20's, and thinking gameplay at 25 is the same at 50. The Devs have also thrown down the reasoning behind "adjustments" which make no sense to most of the playing community. yes, clerics were able to solo without using a ton if any healing pots, but they failed to look at the fact that it took clerics 2-3x longer to kill that same group of mobs and this was only up to around level 30 ish.
Now they add pvp, using the same skill dynamics as pve and the whole thing is FUBAR. I take solo play as just that. something to do while leveling up. How the classes perform during solo play means little, as long as they can. sure, some classes will outperform others. that is granted. How they perform in dungeons is another story. I want my rogue doing tons of damage, I want my fighter taking tons of damage. I want my cleric to heal without dying from agro. Each class has it's own unique class feature, that when grouped with the other classes, makes a dungeon doable. As long as no single class can solo the dungeon, makes it fair for all.
pvp on the other hand is where things are getting hosed. Any skill nerf to limit pvp interactions, adversely affects pve play. This is where they are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the pooch. They are trying to make pvp an integral part of the game, through glory and item exchanges from pvp play. They game adjustments are going to get out of hand to the point that I feel many people will simply go back to playing their current MMO in a few months. The game is fun and exciting because it's new, what it offers at level 60 to keep people wanting to continue playing remains to be seen. Whether the game becomes Rogue city, as it stands now, is likely the case. There seems to be little incentive to play the other classes atm, when rogues are superior in all aspects of the game as the devs have "adjusted" the classes currently.
I hope the game does well. I have been waiting a while to enjoy a new DnD game so my expectations are quite high.
In PvP matches are a chaotic mess of people attacking one another before a GWF comes in and stomps the area. It's impossible to tell who's doing what unless you get frozen by a friggen CW. Saying rogues are overpowered is like throwing angry five cats at one another and saying the black one's too strong because it's a few inches bigger.
Fear advantage the white one is immune to! Do I REALLY need to explain "five angry cat" metagame? It's first grade!
Sarcasm aside, the classes feel just fine. Rogues do ridiculous amounts of damage, CW holds mobs in place and trolls people in pvp, GWF bunches mobs up and chops them into bits, GF chuckles at your attempt to hurt it, cleric draws aggro and dies like a bi- I mean heals allies and keeps them fighting fit. If we must use the "OP" card for PvE, then only when one class can do the job of another class do we have a problem. If TRs can tank just as well as GFs, we have problems.
I do agree that the cleric is still drawing too much aggro.
What's fun is squaring off with another good rogue 1 on 1. Usually I find one that has sneaked through the battle and to the nearby flag; he's nervous and worried because eventually someone is going to come for him when they notice the flag going down. At that point it's like chess: do you show yourself and let him try to stealth away? Or force him to pop his stealth first and then pop your own? Who will land the first dazing strike?
I dueled with a halfie named FAKE during Bw4 who was brilliant, we were practically 1 on 1 the whole match and it was an even game (until he brought his cleric friend, cheater). It certainly wasn't button-mashing, there was skill involved. He roll-dodged my dazing strike more than once and got the upper hand. Anyway, the next PvP match he and I were on the same team.
I agree, GWF was half-baked this last beta. Rogues don't need nerfing, other classes need buffing.
~Oscar Wilde~
"Look at what the Great Weapon Fighter can do, he's so OP!"
~Andy Velasquez~
Rogues have crazy damage, yes, maybe it even needs to be lowered, but hell, rogues can't do anything at all except hit hard, which doesn't help when adds keep spawning ever 15 sec or when the boss has a cloud of poison on him half the time.
My CW easily killed 4-5 packs of enemies even if one was a giant demon in helms hold. Sure, it took some time, but my hp didn't budge. But my trickster almost got steamrolled by the giant demon (the one to the left when you get into helms hold) if i accidentally aggro-ed another group or two. Chugging pots only helps so much when you have no stealth left, pot on 12 sec cd, and 10+ mobs that do a quarter of your hp in damage each hit.
Also, with a CC-specced CW i still out damaged everyone in dungeons, didn't really matter what level they were.
Playing the trickster is like saying "Hey, give me lots of beer so i don't have to worry about what happens tonight", because if you take a hit there won't be another morning but at least you had fun.
Made me LOL. xD
This +100. Go watch the pvp youtube posted on your thief forum. The class is OP and face the fact other people want to enjoy playing another class so balancing is needed.
TR sucks bunny ballz in PVP prove:D
So TR are fine, dont touch them:X
I'm assuming you're being sarcastic in saying "TR sucks" here.
Yes, the TR stomps 3 GWFs in a row. It's not because they're overpowered, it's because not only was the GWF class depressingly underpowered in GBW4, but those GWFs were phenomenally terrible. They barely use any of their abilities, and they run around like a chicken with its head cut off while the TR chucks daggers instead of staying close to keep the pressure.
Those are some powerful exaggerations you're claiming. The TR is not "the darling class of the devs." I have no idea where you got that from, other than your subjective opinion that Rogues are OP.
***
I've received some flak recently for my opinion that Rogues are not OP. Hilarious, depressing, but not at all surprising.
Funny part is, my first thread about Rogues was a suggested nerf. That thread has now sunk to psychosis-inducing depths of irrationality, but it's still there if you need proof of this.
I believe the Trickster Rogue to be balanced at present. TR's are still topping kill/death and damage charts more so than any other class, but that's to be expected from a class designed entirely around killing quickly.
My observation as of BW4 is that TR's are stomping a lot of face in PvP and excelling in PvE because the mechanics of the class are very familiar. There's nothing revolutionary about the TR's tactics relative to every other MMORPG that has an assassin-type class (try to name 3 that don't). On top of that, the TRs tactics are very intuitive; hit the enemy really hard, really fast, then get out of the way of their counter attack. Anyone who plays First Person Shooters is familiar with the mentality necessary to play a Rogue.
Most of the other classes have mechanics that are far less similar to other games. GFs have active Blocking, which isn't entirely unprecedented (TERA) but still very rare. GWFs are stuck in a gray area about their intended role, leaving players mired in mediocrity from class features/powers that don't synergize as well as other classes. CWs are particularly unique and complex, and Clerics... Oh boy, Clerics... The radical departure from the traditional "healer" archetype has left the class's community in a most remarkably foul mood.
It's not with any intent to insult when I say that players need to get better at playing their class. Believe it or not, I'm talking to a lot of you Rogues as well, because even the TR takes skill to use effectively. There's always more to learn, you can always improve. So don't assume that just because one class looks more powerful now, when the game hasn't even come out of Closed Beta yet, that class needs a nerf.
A necessary point of clarity before the rage begins: My main is a Cleric. I'm not defending my own class here so that I can "play the power class." I got a TR up to level 16 on Sunday of BW4 simply because I enjoy discussing the class and felt it necessary to get some experience with it. I'm not even a very good TR, stealth classes just aren't my style, but the theory behind it is fun to explore.
Man people have been *****ing against rogues since the dawn of time. They're a twitch-based class in a genre that traditionally has had a lazy approach to combat. PvP is fast paced and classes with high skillcaps (like rogues) will always own the competition. It's been this way for 12 years since DaoC practically started the stealther-craze/hate. Not gonna change any time soon might as well get used to it.
To be fair, I had them dazed (Thus, them not being able to use skills), and when they weren't I was "avoiding" them. That said, I don't deny that the selection of powers they had chosen for those fights were not ideal.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned DC Universe Online (DCO), NWO actually resembles DCO a lot more than TERA does. Having played DCO and PvPed extensively in it before Macroers destroyed PVP in that game. Without derailing, I have to say Cryptic can draw a lot on what made PvP "fun" in DCO. Another thing that Cryptic needs to take a page out of is TERA's separation of what each power/skill does in PvP and PvE.
In TERA, say skill X does this in PvE - Stun for 8s + 1000 dmg, a 8s stun in PvP most would agree would be ridiculous, their solution is simple, upon attacking another player, skills revert to PvP skills, such that skill X does this in PvP - stun 2s + 300dmg. This is a little more complex for TERA as it has "open-world PvP" but for NWO I see no reason why alternate effects of a power/skill couldn't be implemented. Since all PvP is instanced (No "open-world"), simply add power/skills modifiers upon entering a PvP state (when zooning into PvP instances), this is already done for Level/Stat scaling when you enter a PvP Level bracket, where level 10s will be "boosted" to level 19. I honestly don't see why it can't be done, and hasn't been done. This would shut a lot of PvE & PvP whiners about who nerfs powers/skills.
(Apart from the obvious issues with GWF's in BW4) The "bigger picture" problem with GWF's is the same issue Blizzard had with Paladins in WOW, especially during vanilla and TBC period (more so than druids). They had talents specialising in Healing/Tanking/DPS, albeit a larger focus on the former. Put together with the enigma (before mass dispel) of having divine shield = total invulnerability for X amount of time. Focusing on anything other than healing meant you won't being picked up for raids, as others did it better. The difference was noticeable "apparently" (I beg to differ, I was ret dps and kept up with most in MC/Onyxia raids- to the annoyance of many).
Like wise, Cryptic has the same issue with GWF's, hybrid classes will almost always perform worst than any pure class. You trade specialisation for utility, and you have to accept that. Again I do not deny that as of BW4 said utility is non-existent, but asking for parity is ridiculous.
(In PvP anyway) Your over estimation of the relative power of stealth is misguided, with a relatively short duration the ability to choose when/how to start fights is rare at best.
I would like to point you to my video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ojdd13XAKw
and ask you, in comparison how long do I spend in stealth, to being out of it.
Then ask yourself, if stealth was such a big advantage, why am I not taking advantage of it and only using it as a Dazing strike quickener in a predetermined combination of powers sequence.
If anything, the class feature that increased damage while in stealth promoted a certain "stealth" based game play, while now stealth is reduced to gimicky usage.
This was done when they strengthened control for CW. They made it so that the control works a lot longer on mosters while on players it works for lesser time.
I've never actually played DCO or TERA, but others on the forums have mentioned both in relation to certain NWO mechanics. I understand both games had some success for a time, so if NWO can learn from that past experience then it's sure to improve!