zaketrinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Please leave rogues as is. They are fine in their role as a striker.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited April 2013
. . . . .I've snipped out a few posts. Lets, not fling insults or name calling in our discussions and arguments. There is no need for hostilities when debating and discussing topics. Also, any images, links and youtubes must be pertinent to Neverwinter Online in the main forums, no matter how awesome or funny they are.
. . . . .Also, a word of caution, tread carefully discussing other MMOs. Let's keep the discussions on Neverwinter Online, not how other games play.
People are such cry babies. I am ashamed of being a gamer when I listen to what people say and read these comments on the forums.
They were already nerfed and don't need to be nerfed anymore. Of course the classes need work and maybe even more flexibility, but just because you want to play another class doesn't mean it should be the BEST class or be the BEST at something. It is also possible you just suck at your class and honestly I wouldn't be shocked if most of the people in this game lack skill.
Rogue is suppose to be a high DPS class, especially on one target.
. . . . .I've snipped out a few posts. Lets, not fling insults or name calling in our discussions and arguments. There is no need for hostilities when debating and discussing topics. Also, any images, links and youtubes must be pertinent to Neverwinter Online in the main forums, no matter how awesome or funny they are.
. . . . .Also, a word of caution, tread carefully discussing other MMOs. Let's keep the discussions on Neverwinter Online, not how other games play.
Thanks,
Zebular, PWE Community Moderator
Thank you Zebular. You more than most know us gamers invest more than just money in these games and can sometimes get more emotional than intended in our responses.
People are such cry babies. I am ashamed of being a gamer when I listen to what people say and read these comments on the forums.
They were already nerfed and don't need to be nerfed anymore. Of course the classes need work and maybe even more flexibility, but just because you want to play another class doesn't mean it should be the BEST class or be the BEST at something. It is also possible you just suck at your class and honestly I wouldn't be shocked if most of the people in this game lack skill.
Rogue is suppose to be a high DPS class, especially on one target.
This is beta. These things will be discussed and discussed and discussed more. There is no "nerfing" in beta. They will make adjustments for play-testing purposes and decided based on gathered data how to proceed from there. That includes feedback from those who participated in beta. Casual gamers who get into beta normally don't post during beta, it's the skilled players bantering back and forth over every aspect of the game, especially character powers and playability. Most of us want the game to succeed and succeed beyond 3-6months. It may not always be pretty, but that's why people like Zebular are here
of course, he could pass out some cookies from time to time :cool:
People are such cry babies. I am ashamed of being a gamer when I listen to what people say and read these comments on the forums.
They were already nerfed and don't need to be nerfed anymore. Of course the classes need work and maybe even more flexibility, but just because you want to play another class doesn't mean it should be the BEST class or be the BEST at something. It is also possible you just suck at your class and honestly I wouldn't be shocked if most of the people in this game lack skill.
Rogue is suppose to be a high DPS class, especially on one target.
I love the consistent theme of the "other players/classes lack skill/are cry babies/suck at your class/don't understand the role man. Its all about the role man... LRN2P your class man...
I don't care if the rogues are the best striker class in PVE. What the other classes request is a balancing in PVP and some need a real lot of help in PVE (GWF). You see we turn up with the same cash you do (fair enough I am a guardian not hero) and we would like to compete in PVP.
I think that is a fair and reasonable request to the devs.
And again please do not use the argument that everyone else who rolls another class must be lacking in skill.
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hinken666Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 6Arc User
rogue received a lot of nerf, lurker's assault has had it's duration SEVERELY nerfed and damage nerfed too. stealth no longer grants +25% damage (not a small nerf at all). lashing blade from stealth now is a guaranteed crit insated of +50% damage. and other stuff.
the rogue is a very early bloomer making the first part of the game trivial but the game eventually catches up to them. try playing a rogue from 50 to 60 and see if it is still immortal. suddendly enemies are too tough to go down in 1 stealth and they WILL kill you in a matter of seconds outside stealth.
rogue has been nerfed enough, gwf has been nerfed too much (needs to get a bit more damage now imho) and cleric kinda sucks. power up gwf and cleric and stop hating the rogue.
remember rogues outside stealth has no capacity to take a hit at all (yeah i played rogue a lot, it just dies if it doesn't avoid being hit entirely), very limited control capabilities and cannot perform any kind of support or AoE damage. single target dps and gimmick damage avoidance is what they do and they shouldn't stop being able to do it.
Totally agree.
The WHOLE concept of rogue since D and D and even before.. is this..
The come in unseen so protect yourself because if you don't detect them.. your dead.
(NOTE) not slight wounded chasing a dude who is 10% faster running for his lightly armoured life.
The idea is they deal great damage in single burst, but once they are visible they lose that edge. This should apply from 0-60 and pvp. but the whole concept of roll a 20 and you spot a rogue, or have high built in visual/detect abilitys (listen, spot, detect for example, dependant on your game) was the rogue's bane.
Devestating critcals and a rogue was the best thing ive ever experienced in 20 years of online gaming, till I came up against a proper build pale master or several other classes. Its all about builds.. You cannot have everything in one class, this is NOT WoW!
Balance and the odd occasional lucky roll.
thanks,
Hinken.
(former Gm of the coalition, from NwN 1 persistent worlds SoA and Hotu)
You know other classes will think TR are overpowered until they cant kill them.
Lets say difficulty in learning the classes are:
TR: 1
GWF: 3
GF:2
CW: 5
DC: 4
Everone can play TR decently, its quite straight forward. Problem with CW is that to many are playing it as DPS, expect it to perform as a DPS class, and do as much damage as a DPS class.
People dont have enough experiance from 1 or 2 Betas to play their classes at a good level.
Reason why rogues dominated is above, its easy to play.
I met some good CWs, Guardians and DC, they stood just as good of a chance against any other class.
Very good DCs its extremly hard to take down for Rogues without a CW friend to cc them, Rogues lack skills to keep them in place.
Alot of new players just stood there, in melee range, taking the brunt of the damage in melee range. That is not how you fight rogues.
Good GF players used what their good at against me, they didnt try to kill me, they mitigated my damage and let their teammates take care of me. They protected their DPS teammates.
There shouldnt be to big changes in the classes until players learn their classes a bit better, it WAY to early to make adjustments this early. Even if there is a alphagroup, its to small a playerbase with various skillvl.
Its been a trend in later mmos that DPS gets nerfed way to early in games, then when people actually becomes better, get better gear and skills, the dps classes falls behind and it takes months and months for the developers to react becouse their busy fixing buggs.
You know other classes will think TR are overpowered until they cant kill them. [/QUOTE
Freudian slip maybe lol. Please dont use the LRN2Play ur class angle. It gets old. Enjoy ur time in the sun. It will be fun when the stronger strikers show up. Dual wielding ranger anyone....
How about they lower the ability to evade damage on the rogue. I would like to see how the rogue likes not being able to avoid all the damage incoming on them.
You are a whiney excuse of a gamer. Why don't you go play something else that is down your alley, like maybe "Hello Kitty"
You have no idea what the Rogue class is and what it's Pro's and Con's are. That is clearly evident by your posts. Why don't you go to the forums for your class and ask them for a GOD buff(since you seem to need one from all your whining) instead of asking them to nerf TR's.
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theazurehawkMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
No nerfs please!! Stop it!! Buff everything else... no nerfs!
The WHOLE concept of rogue since D and D and even before.. is this..
The come in unseen so protect yourself because if you don't detect them.. your dead.
(NOTE) not slight wounded chasing a dude who is 10% faster running for his lightly armoured life.
That's actually inaccurate...
A Rogue (or rather Thief) was designed around skills. Trapfinding, lock picking, pocket picking, etc etc etc. I believe they had a lower attack bonus than Fighters in most editions (don't quote me on that), and were unable to wield the heavies/most damaging weapons. Sneak attack was introduced to give them relevance in combat, not to be masters thereof.
Over the years the "Assassin" archetype became more and more dominant in the class's identity, but that was not the original envisioning.
Sneak attack was introduced to give them relevance in combat, not to be masters thereof.
Well, no. In D&D and AD&D, thieves (before they were called rogues) had the ability to "backstab." "Sneak attack" is a latter mechanic that expanded the ability and in many ways made it slightly more video game friendly.
While thieves were never the straight up toe-to-toe slugfest masters of melee that fighters were, it was very easy to spec out a sneaky killer. There are a lot of ways to build out a rogue to be exceptionally lethal, it just required a bit of planning since they weren't always able to "LEROY JENKINS" everyone...
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Well, no. In D&D and AD&D, thieves (before they were called rogues) had the ability to "backstab." "Sneak attack" is a latter mechanic that expanded the ability and in many ways made it slightly more video game friendly.
I don't care if they keep the damage they have (rogues) perhaps other mechanics. i.e. avoidance or damage mitigation can be adjusted my only real argument with rogues and I enjoyed my rogue too. But I would say they need to not be great at everything. Having the highest damage, one of the best avoidance skills and on top of that the teleport behind targets. That or the other classes should potentially receive a boost to survival.
The damage alone doesn't need to be the only focus.
Seriously....the WoW QQ players need to stay out of ANY balancing conversations. I don't want this becoming another abortion (aka EQ 2) or Cry baby paradise (aka WoW aka Everyone is technically a paladin). Rogues are FINE where we're at. Rogues don't get the multi hits of Wizards, or GWF. As for survivability, I have to pop more potions then an over the hill WWE wrestler on his last leg.
I for one am tired of GWF cry babies that are constantly commenting "I can't believe a rogue out DPS'd me! I'm a GWF!" Yet their rotation was horrible, their positioning was mediocre at best, and they were wearing random armoring/weapons. Then I come in with a highly focused rotation, carefully itemized stat selection for armoring and food, and careful positioning. I get the highest DPS. I also had to pop 20+ healing potions to stay alive, and was the only one peeling for the Cleric. Not tooting my own horn, just trying to point out the rediculousness of the constant QQ comments I was hearing every BETA weekend.
I am a rogue. I make my living killing things faster then they kill me, in medium armor. I don't have the control, nor AOE and slows of a wizard. I don't have the heavy armor and multi hit of the GWF, I'm not a Cleric. I don't have a shield. The only thing I have is A: Burst damage, or B: stealth and evades to lower my dps, but up my defense to outlast.
The one change they SHOULD make for rogues is making traps in dungeons HURT a LOT more. Its sad when WoW players yell at the rogue to "STAY BEHIND THE TANK OR GET KICKED!" (because traps are laughable) and 90% of the dungeon groups just run straight through the traps LOL'ing and expecting the cleric to keep them up, or popping potions. This leaves most rogues either A: Sighing and frustrated for never being needed to see/dismantle traps in dungeons, or B: being left behind by the group, after stopping to disarm traps and not seeing the rest of the team just plow through all the other traps and pull mobs.
They already nerfed Rogue thanks to u whiners, now you want even further nerfing?!!!!! For ****** sake, the Rogue ISNT supposed to be a weak little coward. We're supposed to be single-target heavy-hitters, not some halfbaked GWF.
They are not supposed to be front line brawlers either yet that's what they are. Your survivability is too high. Period.
They are not supposed to be front line brawlers either yet that's what they are. Your survivability is too high. Period.
You're bad. Period. I can take a rogue on my CW with literally 1hp vs. his full and kill him. Rogues are so ****ing easy to cc and kill. Everyone just needs to stop being bad. Clerics have self heals and cc. GWF has sprint and slows among other things. GF has a ****ing shield. CW have a billion cc's. Every class can kill another class in this game. Learn to play.
Rogues are still too strong. As an epic geared guardian fighter a rogue can use one daily and one shot me. Not to mention their smoke bomb/screen whatever it is that aoe disables makes half my team's game crash. If you don't agree to a nerf you're playing an OP rogue. Except the fact you need skill and not imbalanced gameplay to win. Nerf these kids.
How does someone's skill in a game have anything to do with the mechanics of a game?
Mechanics depend on skill. Maybe you should actually block the attack? Did you even try or did you just bend over? How about knocking someone down to survive more than 2 seconds? Rogues need a damage adjustment but not as bad as you say.
It takes them less than a second to use their daily and one shot my guy. Blocking meter has nothing to do with skill. It doesn't block enough damage to even be useful except against wizards while you get closer to them to attack. Rogue destroy it so fast it's pointless to use it. Using knock down chains is the only way to kill someone as a guardian fighter and if a rogue uses his black cloak thing he's immune to cc. Not to mention he can just stealth and go behind you and boom, one shot. Sounds like you haven't even tried pvp yet.
if you can show me a rogue 1shotting a guardian fighter from full health i'll certainly agree with all of this but as is when a guardian fighter is holding a tower killing it 1vs1 is possible but way too long to be a good strategy and at risk of it receiving reinforcements. guardian's role in pvp is to -hold- towers and they do it better than any other class, leave the actual killing to your teammates.
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orangerascalMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It takes them less than a second to use their daily and one shot my guy. Blocking meter has nothing to do with skill. It doesn't block enough damage to even be useful except against wizards while you get closer to them to attack. Rogue destroy it so fast it's pointless to use it. Using knock down chains is the only way to kill someone as a guardian fighter and if a rogue uses his black cloak thing he's immune to cc. Not to mention he can just stealth and go behind you and boom, one shot. Sounds like you haven't even tried pvp yet.
Our GF holds the node against 2 rogues while waiting for the backup strikers to come in and finish them off.
Know your role and l2block. If you're dying to rogues you're gearing/playing wrongly. I bet your of one those fighters that stack power and pretends he is a striker.
wow in every game i have played the rogue as always the best class or at least the funnest in every one of thous game there are always complaints about how over powered they are.
Comments
. . . . .Also, a word of caution, tread carefully discussing other MMOs. Let's keep the discussions on Neverwinter Online, not how other games play.
Thanks,
Zebular, PWE Community Moderator
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
They were already nerfed and don't need to be nerfed anymore. Of course the classes need work and maybe even more flexibility, but just because you want to play another class doesn't mean it should be the BEST class or be the BEST at something. It is also possible you just suck at your class and honestly I wouldn't be shocked if most of the people in this game lack skill.
Rogue is suppose to be a high DPS class, especially on one target.
*~Serixil Kor'hedron- Drow Trickster~*
Thank you Zebular. You more than most know us gamers invest more than just money in these games and can sometimes get more emotional than intended in our responses.
This is beta. These things will be discussed and discussed and discussed more. There is no "nerfing" in beta. They will make adjustments for play-testing purposes and decided based on gathered data how to proceed from there. That includes feedback from those who participated in beta. Casual gamers who get into beta normally don't post during beta, it's the skilled players bantering back and forth over every aspect of the game, especially character powers and playability. Most of us want the game to succeed and succeed beyond 3-6months. It may not always be pretty, but that's why people like Zebular are here
of course, he could pass out some cookies from time to time :cool:
I love the consistent theme of the "other players/classes lack skill/are cry babies/suck at your class/don't understand the role man. Its all about the role man... LRN2P your class man...
I don't care if the rogues are the best striker class in PVE. What the other classes request is a balancing in PVP and some need a real lot of help in PVE (GWF). You see we turn up with the same cash you do (fair enough I am a guardian not hero) and we would like to compete in PVP.
I think that is a fair and reasonable request to the devs.
And again please do not use the argument that everyone else who rolls another class must be lacking in skill.
Totally agree.
The WHOLE concept of rogue since D and D and even before.. is this..
The come in unseen so protect yourself because if you don't detect them.. your dead.
(NOTE) not slight wounded chasing a dude who is 10% faster running for his lightly armoured life.
The idea is they deal great damage in single burst, but once they are visible they lose that edge. This should apply from 0-60 and pvp. but the whole concept of roll a 20 and you spot a rogue, or have high built in visual/detect abilitys (listen, spot, detect for example, dependant on your game) was the rogue's bane.
Devestating critcals and a rogue was the best thing ive ever experienced in 20 years of online gaming, till I came up against a proper build pale master or several other classes. Its all about builds.. You cannot have everything in one class, this is NOT WoW!
Balance and the odd occasional lucky roll.
thanks,
Hinken.
(former Gm of the coalition, from NwN 1 persistent worlds SoA and Hotu)
Lets say difficulty in learning the classes are:
TR: 1
GWF: 3
GF:2
CW: 5
DC: 4
Everone can play TR decently, its quite straight forward. Problem with CW is that to many are playing it as DPS, expect it to perform as a DPS class, and do as much damage as a DPS class.
People dont have enough experiance from 1 or 2 Betas to play their classes at a good level.
Reason why rogues dominated is above, its easy to play.
I met some good CWs, Guardians and DC, they stood just as good of a chance against any other class.
Very good DCs its extremly hard to take down for Rogues without a CW friend to cc them, Rogues lack skills to keep them in place.
Alot of new players just stood there, in melee range, taking the brunt of the damage in melee range. That is not how you fight rogues.
Good GF players used what their good at against me, they didnt try to kill me, they mitigated my damage and let their teammates take care of me. They protected their DPS teammates.
There shouldnt be to big changes in the classes until players learn their classes a bit better, it WAY to early to make adjustments this early. Even if there is a alphagroup, its to small a playerbase with various skillvl.
Its been a trend in later mmos that DPS gets nerfed way to early in games, then when people actually becomes better, get better gear and skills, the dps classes falls behind and it takes months and months for the developers to react becouse their busy fixing buggs.
You are a whiney excuse of a gamer. Why don't you go play something else that is down your alley, like maybe "Hello Kitty"
You have no idea what the Rogue class is and what it's Pro's and Con's are. That is clearly evident by your posts. Why don't you go to the forums for your class and ask them for a GOD buff(since you seem to need one from all your whining) instead of asking them to nerf TR's.
That's actually inaccurate...
A Rogue (or rather Thief) was designed around skills. Trapfinding, lock picking, pocket picking, etc etc etc. I believe they had a lower attack bonus than Fighters in most editions (don't quote me on that), and were unable to wield the heavies/most damaging weapons. Sneak attack was introduced to give them relevance in combat, not to be masters thereof.
Over the years the "Assassin" archetype became more and more dominant in the class's identity, but that was not the original envisioning.
Well, no. In D&D and AD&D, thieves (before they were called rogues) had the ability to "backstab." "Sneak attack" is a latter mechanic that expanded the ability and in many ways made it slightly more video game friendly.
While thieves were never the straight up toe-to-toe slugfest masters of melee that fighters were, it was very easy to spec out a sneaky killer. There are a lot of ways to build out a rogue to be exceptionally lethal, it just required a bit of planning since they weren't always able to "LEROY JENKINS" everyone...
Bah, semantics. :P
The damage alone doesn't need to be the only focus.
I for one am tired of GWF cry babies that are constantly commenting "I can't believe a rogue out DPS'd me! I'm a GWF!" Yet their rotation was horrible, their positioning was mediocre at best, and they were wearing random armoring/weapons. Then I come in with a highly focused rotation, carefully itemized stat selection for armoring and food, and careful positioning. I get the highest DPS. I also had to pop 20+ healing potions to stay alive, and was the only one peeling for the Cleric. Not tooting my own horn, just trying to point out the rediculousness of the constant QQ comments I was hearing every BETA weekend.
I am a rogue. I make my living killing things faster then they kill me, in medium armor. I don't have the control, nor AOE and slows of a wizard. I don't have the heavy armor and multi hit of the GWF, I'm not a Cleric. I don't have a shield. The only thing I have is A: Burst damage, or B: stealth and evades to lower my dps, but up my defense to outlast.
The one change they SHOULD make for rogues is making traps in dungeons HURT a LOT more. Its sad when WoW players yell at the rogue to "STAY BEHIND THE TANK OR GET KICKED!" (because traps are laughable) and 90% of the dungeon groups just run straight through the traps LOL'ing and expecting the cleric to keep them up, or popping potions. This leaves most rogues either A: Sighing and frustrated for never being needed to see/dismantle traps in dungeons, or B: being left behind by the group, after stopping to disarm traps and not seeing the rest of the team just plow through all the other traps and pull mobs.
They are not supposed to be front line brawlers either yet that's what they are. Your survivability is too high. Period.
Please ban whining little children for asking that everyone else's gameplay ruined because they can't figure out their class, and/or the game.
Regards,
Rogues.
P.S. Thanks for the class sub-forums!
You're bad. Period. I can take a rogue on my CW with literally 1hp vs. his full and kill him. Rogues are so ****ing easy to cc and kill. Everyone just needs to stop being bad. Clerics have self heals and cc. GWF has sprint and slows among other things. GF has a ****ing shield. CW have a billion cc's. Every class can kill another class in this game. Learn to play.
You must suck really bad to only last 2 seconds. lol.
Mechanics depend on skill. Maybe you should actually block the attack? Did you even try or did you just bend over? How about knocking someone down to survive more than 2 seconds? Rogues need a damage adjustment but not as bad as you say.
Our GF holds the node against 2 rogues while waiting for the backup strikers to come in and finish them off.
Know your role and l2block. If you're dying to rogues you're gearing/playing wrongly. I bet your of one those fighters that stack power
Those who said its already being nerfed and is fine now, is just enjoying being overpowered in PVP atm. I totally get it, its fun.