this thread is terrible . the OP give nothing for his claim.
Then you have morons trying to cry about DnD roles. this is not pen and paper. this is a MMO that is based on and takes its general ideas from 4E DnD. the "roles" will never simply transfer from DnD to a MMO like you want. There HAS to be a commonsense type of balance period. Ignorant to think otherwise.
Then you have the equally stupid that try to cry about "this is a PVE game !!" No it is NOT. It is a MMO with PvE. and PvP on the internet. even in DnD players battled eachother. This is NOT a PvE only game nor is it intended that way ever!. Again pure ignorance.
Now it is well known WEEEL:LLL known that the rogue is still abusively too much of a damage gap above the other classes. Yes the rogue should be more dps. but right now it is stupid how much more and that is the point of all the threads on it. You pretend like the rogue got nerfed hard in BW4. it was baaaaarrreeeeelly touched that 25% stealth is next to nothing. and the class in general of all attacks and speed does too much damage still.
Lastly I play a rogue I played ALL weekend long. I tested the rogue in everyway with extreme detail. writeing down numbers and playing right next to my friends and compareing hits numbers etc. I love the rogue... the rogue still does to much of a damage gap it is silly how much .
I have not played a rogue at all yet, but I have played both the Wizard and the Cleric. If you are trying to even compete with a class who's only role is DPS, then you are playing your class wrong. Completely. Neither the control wizard or the devoted cleric are major damage dealers. They can deal damage, but that is not their direct purpose as it is with the TR. A control wizards purpose is to control the mobs. A clerics purpose is to supplement health regeneration. Both classes help with damage when they can.
You should be happy, without the rogues damage, dungeons would take longer to clear.
If your concern is their damage in PVP, this game is not PVP focused, as has been stated by the devs multiple times (and no I will not take my time to find a souce link for you).
If you want a game with pvp "Balance", you are looking at the wrong game.
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xshadesx88Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited April 2013
Allow me to translate the OP ahem. " i got killed by a rogue's range when i was almost dead and decided to run away with only 100hp left"
this thread is terrible . the OP give nothing for his claim.
Then you have morons trying to cry about DnD roles. this is not pen and paper. this is a MMO that is based on and takes its general ideas from 4E DnD. the "roles" will never simply transfer from DnD to a MMO like you want. There HAS to be a commonsense type of balance period. Ignorant to think otherwise.
Then you have the equally stupid that try to cry about "this is a PVE game !!" No it is NOT. It is a MMO with PvE. and PvP on the internet. even in DnD players battled eachother. This is NOT a PvE only game nor is it intended that way ever!. Again pure ignorance.
Now it is well known WEEEL:LLL known that the rogue is still abusively too much of a damage gap above the other classes. Yes the rogue should be more dps. but right now it is stupid how much more and that is the point of all the threads on it. You pretend like the rogue got nerfed hard in BW4. it was baaaaarrreeeeelly touched that 25% stealth is next to nothing. and the class in general of all attacks and speed does too much damage still.
Lastly I play a rogue I played ALL weekend long. I tested the rogue in everyway with extreme detail. writeing down numbers and playing right next to my friends and compareing hits numbers etc. I love the rogue... the rogue still does to much of a damage gap it is silly how much .
I agree people who play lots of PnP D&D need let go of how some of the classes act/play on paper and lean to see that class in every other MMO is play. If the there a to big gap in damage with classes then the rouge the other classes should get buff in the roles they are in best at and if the damage has to be bought up make just a bit. I wise people would way off the nerf talk and ask for more power to the other classes.
And I am sick of the people who complain about D&D people wanting D&D in a D&D game. If you want XYZ balanced PVP MMOs there are lots of XYZs, ABCs, and LMNOPs out there. D&D is about different "roles" (and "rolls";)) as it is a "roleplaying game". This CAN be true whether PnP or console game, or MMO.
I don't understand why the MMO nuts who play a game for 2 months and move on to the next new thing want to ruin it for the people who want the game to be deep and immersive so that THEY can play it for many years.
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blasph3m3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
The OP actually forced me to check I was not on the WOW forums. Kudos.
A one line whine does not make for a convincing argument, try again.
Then you have morons trying to cry about DnD roles. this is not pen and paper. this is a MMO that is based on and takes its general ideas from 4E DnD. the "roles" will never simply transfer from DnD to a MMO like you want. There HAS to be a commonsense type of balance period. Ignorant to think otherwise.
Nobody is confusing this for PnP DnD. The game itself identifies classes and companions both by the established roles of striker, controller, leader and defender. Why bother including these descriptors if they intended every class to do comparable damage?
Then you have the equally stupid that try to cry about "this is a PVE game !!" No it is NOT. It is a MMO with PvE. and PvP on the internet. even in DnD players battled eachother. This is NOT a PvE only game nor is it intended that way ever!. Again pure ignorance.
I hardly think that's a stupid argument. This is a pve mmo with a pvp element tacked on. One just has to look at what we're launching with : 60 levels worth of of pve questing, dungeon, zone contest and skirmish content, the very pve focused Foundry, and a little 5v5 pvp mini game.
Lastly I play a rogue I played ALL weekend long. I tested the rogue in everyway with extreme detail. writeing down numbers and playing right next to my friends and compareing hits numbers etc. I love the rogue... the rogue still does to much of a damage gap it is silly how much .
So I take it you also sat there with your friends and compared the rogue's damage mitigation to the guardian fighters? And you compared the healing to the devoted clerics, right? And I'm sure you compared the crowd controls between the rogue and control wizard, right?
Comparing incredibly different classes based solely on damage numbers is an incredible fallacy. One that mmo gamers as a whole should really learn to stop doing.
I agree people who play lots of PnP D&D need let go of how some of the classes act/play on paper and lean to see that class in every other MMO is play.
If Cryptic intended for this to play like every other MMO, why do we not have 5 hotbars with 80 abilities to macro through? Games are allowed to be different and do different things. Just because MMO ABC's dps classes only do 2% more damage than tanks or healers, does not mean it has to be that way here.
Rogues having a ranged attack is stupid, take all ranged attacks away from rogue or nerf them, they are not a ranged class
remove the ability for Mages and Clerics to do Damage they are not DPS Classes. (this is exactly the same, accept that a DPS does more damage ranged or otherwise than a healer and Control Focussed char)
Also Rogues in 4E can have hand crossbows so its not too wild to accept them having a ranged (also Great weapon fighters have a ranged too)
I agree people who play lots of PnP D&D need let go of how some of the classes act/play on paper and lean to see that class in every other MMO is play. If the there a to big gap in damage with classes then the rouge the other classes should get buff in the roles they are in best at and if the damage has to be bought up make just a bit. I wise people would way off the nerf talk and ask for more power to the other classes.
Your post is well said and opinionated.( unlike the couple others above that scream ignorance and the stupidity I was talking about.) To answer you tho the other class should NOT be buffed. good lord the game is to easy as it is. that is why the damage dealing rogue needs to be brough down to 30-35% higher dps ( which is Huge in itself) instead of being 50-100% more dps .
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darkstarx3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The only problem I see here are people who don't understand the whole idea of roles in D&D 4th edition. This isn't "insert random MMO here" where every class needs to be balanced to the point all of their damage is the same. Balancing should take place WITHIN EACH ROLE; i.e. strikers are balanced against other strikers, leaders are balanced against leaders, defenders against defenders, etc.
A striker ROGUE (not ROUGE) does more damage than a leader cleric or a controller wizard, because that's what they're supposed to do. When rogues start absorbing more damage than defenders or controlling better than wizards, then you have a legitimate reason to complain.
Stop trying to pigeonhole every class into the same damage requirements; that's not D&D. There are plenty of generic MMOs out there for you to play with if you want every class to be balanced around equal damage.
then why is GWF (striker) so weak...
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vampirialMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 27Arc User
edited April 2013
I dont think people are really haning onto too many PnP tropes, I think many people focus on the Striker, Defender, Controller and Healer archetypes because thats what those classes do, As i stated earlier althought I will be honest It was full of snark and venom primarily because its all reactionary and smacks of someone being beaten in PVP and wanting the class that killed him to pay for it. it might not be that however this is what it seems to many.
at the moment we have two Strikers (DPS for those more familiar with a standard MMO vernacular) there are no Ranged Strikers yet, people can play Clerics and Mages to use DPs but they will never pump out the awesome DPS and lets face it, they arnt supposed to and thats alright because in the not too distant future there will be released Ranged DPS in the form of Archer Rangers, warmages and Warlocks and when they are released if the Rogue's ranged DPS tops them then reduce its power or buff the ranged, its really that simple.
I think the problem is needing to bring the GWF up. They did a shotgun approach in nerfing and just blasted the entire class. I think a lot of rogues are stating the GWF is not a striker because they don't want the rogue to get blasted like the GWF did.
I have no issues whatsoever with the dps a rogue does. They however should not have anywhere close to the HP or the survivability that they have now. As a GF in BWE3 I could basically have a stalemate with rogues and eventually wear them down or if they got a series of crits they would come out on top. In BWE4 there was nothing anywhere close to this. I couldn't get a TR down to 50% hp anytime I faced one. Even with a full shield meter and pvp pot. When the highest DPS class becomes a better tank than a GF there are some serious issues. I bet a TR could even be a better tank in pve than GF with all of their avoidance skills. I imagine that the mobs would bounce a round a bit without threat but I bet they would take less damage in the tank roll.
I think the problem is needing to bring the GWF up. They did a shotgun approach in nerfing and just blasted the entire class. I think a lot of rogues are stating the GWF is not a striker because they don't want the rogue to get blasted like the GWF did.
This is a very good point. GWF got an across the board 50%+ nerf on every ability upgrade in the power tree, base ability damage decrease, encounter ability cooldown increases, and moving Punishing Charge (one of the best abilities) from level 1 to level 45.
I mean, you want to talk about getting hit with the Nerf Bat? They dropped a Nerf Nuke on the GWF.
I don't want TR to be nerfed at all. I might support making Fan of Blades an Encounter Ability with a cooldown...but thats about it.
GWF is a lot of fun to play. It's got some really cool abilities...but the damage needs a straight 30-50% buff or the class just won't be worth playing.
I have no issues whatsoever with the dps a rogue does. They however should not have anywhere close to the HP or the survivability that they have now. As a GF in BWE3 I could basically have a stalemate with rogues and eventually wear them down or if they got a series of crits they would come out on top. In BWE4 there was nothing anywhere close to this. I couldn't get a TR down to 50% hp anytime I faced one. Even with a full shield meter and pvp pot. When the highest DPS class becomes a better tank than a GF there are some serious issues. I bet a TR could even be a better tank in pve than GF with all of their avoidance skills. I imagine that the mobs would bounce a round a bit without threat but I bet they would take less damage in the tank roll.
In PVP I can see a rogue tearing you down over time. I would bet that as a GF you live MUCH longer than other classes against them...which is the point of a GF. If your team was paying attention they could have easily taken out the rogue that was beating on you while you just shrugged off the damage.
In PVE, I agree with you whole-heartedly. GF and sometimes GWF should be the only classes that can tank Elites. Like you said, if the Highest PVE DPS is also a suitable PVE Tank why would ever play anything else?
lol what control? what skills to make enemies stop running?
make CW and DC unable to move when attacked in melee range
forum is getting spammed with stupid nerfcalling topics like these
Any enemy running away from a rogue that just roflstomp melee bursted it is just asking for 12 nuclear daggers in the back. I think vaporizing your target is a pretty good way to make it stop running.
That being said. I think TR SHOULD have the highest damage. It should out-dps every other class by a clear mile. However, I also think that other classes should have abilities that are just as useful as high damage. DC needs better heals and buffs. CW needs better CC and debuffs, GF is pretty close but still needs better threat generation, and if GWF is ever going to fill its hybrid role it needs a buff in both Defense and Offense because right now GWF is a throwaway class...there is no reason to ever pick GWF over something else.
Firstly it's ROGUE not burlesque face paint, and second they should just remove PVP and this way the classes don't need to be "balanced" as balance kind of messes up the pve aspects of the game.
Fighters are Defenders, regardless of what type of Fighter they are. Guardian, Great Weapon...if they ever add some of the other types i.e. Battlerager, Tempest, Brawler...these are all still Fighters, and therefor Defenders.
Rogue is the ONLY true Striker in the game at the moment.
I didn't log numbers or anything of the sort while playing this past weekend to compare. These are just my general thoughts on the class. The range attack was ok. I wasn't going to win any fights with that one skill alone in either PVE or PVP. If there is anything on the rogue to check for increased damage it's around the combat advantage they get when attacking from the sides, behind or in stealth. Anytime, I had CA, my damage felt significantly greater. I was even playing around with a GF in PVP and just attacking him while he defended without trying to use CA or stealth . He beat me easily. If I used any skills that gave me CA, the fight instantly shifted into my favor and ended quickly.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I didn't log numbers or anything of the sort while playing this past weekend to compare. These are just my general thoughts on the class. The range attack was ok. I wasn't going to win any fights with that one skill alone in either PVE or PVP. If there is anything on the rogue to check for increased damage it's around the combat advantage they get when attacking from the sides, behind or in stealth. Anytime, I had CA, my damage felt significantly greater. I was even playing around with a GF in PVP and just attacking him while he defended without trying to use CA or stealth . He beat me easily. If I used any skills that gave me CA, the fight instantly shifted into my favor and ended quickly.
I think it is going to be up to the other classes to feat into combat advantage resistance, it seems most have access to it.
Dagger
Simple Light Thrown Melee
Critical: 19–20/x2 Range Increment: 10ft.
Type: Piercing or Slashing
Hardness 10
Cryptic has stated that this game is heavily influenced by pen and paper D&D. Removing the ability to throw a dagger is removing one of the fundamental attacks of a classic rogue
Firstly it's ROGUE not burlesque face paint, and second they should just remove PVP and this way the classes don't need to be "balanced" as balance kind of messes up the pve aspects of the game.
I completely agree, they should remove the PVP, the only put it in to appease the pvp kiddies. And talking about balancing pvp and DnD in the same breath is just wrong.
99.9% sure all the people that make nerf rogue posts played lvl 12 clerics and are sad that rogues killed them a lot in lvl 19 pvp.
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dshearnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 27Arc User
edited April 2013
Am I missing something?
I thought the TR was the DPS class?
They do to much damage? oh...... yea.... I am sure somebody will get right on that....you know....rebalancing the entire game since it was built from the ground up as the TR being the damage dealer in every encounter....
Comments
Then you have morons trying to cry about DnD roles. this is not pen and paper. this is a MMO that is based on and takes its general ideas from 4E DnD. the "roles" will never simply transfer from DnD to a MMO like you want. There HAS to be a commonsense type of balance period. Ignorant to think otherwise.
Then you have the equally stupid that try to cry about "this is a PVE game !!" No it is NOT. It is a MMO with PvE. and PvP on the internet. even in DnD players battled eachother. This is NOT a PvE only game nor is it intended that way ever!. Again pure ignorance.
Now it is well known WEEEL:LLL known that the rogue is still abusively too much of a damage gap above the other classes. Yes the rogue should be more dps. but right now it is stupid how much more and that is the point of all the threads on it. You pretend like the rogue got nerfed hard in BW4. it was baaaaarrreeeeelly touched that 25% stealth is next to nothing. and the class in general of all attacks and speed does too much damage still.
Lastly I play a rogue I played ALL weekend long. I tested the rogue in everyway with extreme detail. writeing down numbers and playing right next to my friends and compareing hits numbers etc. I love the rogue... the rogue still does to much of a damage gap it is silly how much .
You should be happy, without the rogues damage, dungeons would take longer to clear.
If your concern is their damage in PVP, this game is not PVP focused, as has been stated by the devs multiple times (and no I will not take my time to find a souce link for you).
If you want a game with pvp "Balance", you are looking at the wrong game.
waaaaahhh waaaah waaaah
I can still move.
I can still fight.
I will never give up!
I don't understand why the MMO nuts who play a game for 2 months and move on to the next new thing want to ruin it for the people who want the game to be deep and immersive so that THEY can play it for many years.
A one line whine does not make for a convincing argument, try again.
Nobody is confusing this for PnP DnD. The game itself identifies classes and companions both by the established roles of striker, controller, leader and defender. Why bother including these descriptors if they intended every class to do comparable damage?
I hardly think that's a stupid argument. This is a pve mmo with a pvp element tacked on. One just has to look at what we're launching with : 60 levels worth of of pve questing, dungeon, zone contest and skirmish content, the very pve focused Foundry, and a little 5v5 pvp mini game.
So I take it you also sat there with your friends and compared the rogue's damage mitigation to the guardian fighters? And you compared the healing to the devoted clerics, right? And I'm sure you compared the crowd controls between the rogue and control wizard, right?
Comparing incredibly different classes based solely on damage numbers is an incredible fallacy. One that mmo gamers as a whole should really learn to stop doing.
If Cryptic intended for this to play like every other MMO, why do we not have 5 hotbars with 80 abilities to macro through? Games are allowed to be different and do different things. Just because MMO ABC's dps classes only do 2% more damage than tanks or healers, does not mean it has to be that way here.
remove the ability for Mages and Clerics to do Damage they are not DPS Classes. (this is exactly the same, accept that a DPS does more damage ranged or otherwise than a healer and Control Focussed char)
Also Rogues in 4E can have hand crossbows so its not too wild to accept them having a ranged (also Great weapon fighters have a ranged too)
Your post is well said and opinionated.( unlike the couple others above that scream ignorance and the stupidity I was talking about.) To answer you tho the other class should NOT be buffed. good lord the game is to easy as it is. that is why the damage dealing rogue needs to be brough down to 30-35% higher dps ( which is Huge in itself) instead of being 50-100% more dps .
then why is GWF (striker) so weak...
at the moment we have two Strikers (DPS for those more familiar with a standard MMO vernacular) there are no Ranged Strikers yet, people can play Clerics and Mages to use DPs but they will never pump out the awesome DPS and lets face it, they arnt supposed to and thats alright because in the not too distant future there will be released Ranged DPS in the form of Archer Rangers, warmages and Warlocks and when they are released if the Rogue's ranged DPS tops them then reduce its power or buff the ranged, its really that simple.
I was just about to ask this lol
I think the problem is needing to bring the GWF up. They did a shotgun approach in nerfing and just blasted the entire class. I think a lot of rogues are stating the GWF is not a striker because they don't want the rogue to get blasted like the GWF did.
This is a very good point. GWF got an across the board 50%+ nerf on every ability upgrade in the power tree, base ability damage decrease, encounter ability cooldown increases, and moving Punishing Charge (one of the best abilities) from level 1 to level 45.
I mean, you want to talk about getting hit with the Nerf Bat? They dropped a Nerf Nuke on the GWF.
I don't want TR to be nerfed at all. I might support making Fan of Blades an Encounter Ability with a cooldown...but thats about it.
GWF is a lot of fun to play. It's got some really cool abilities...but the damage needs a straight 30-50% buff or the class just won't be worth playing.
In PVP I can see a rogue tearing you down over time. I would bet that as a GF you live MUCH longer than other classes against them...which is the point of a GF. If your team was paying attention they could have easily taken out the rogue that was beating on you while you just shrugged off the damage.
In PVE, I agree with you whole-heartedly. GF and sometimes GWF should be the only classes that can tank Elites. Like you said, if the Highest PVE DPS is also a suitable PVE Tank why would ever play anything else?
lol what control? what skills to make enemies stop running?
make CW and DC unable to move when attacked in melee range
forum is getting spammed with stupid nerfcalling topics like these
Deft and daze are the main control, they also have a few other slows. Did you play a rogue?
Any enemy running away from a rogue that just roflstomp melee bursted it is just asking for 12 nuclear daggers in the back. I think vaporizing your target is a pretty good way to make it stop running.
That being said. I think TR SHOULD have the highest damage. It should out-dps every other class by a clear mile. However, I also think that other classes should have abilities that are just as useful as high damage. DC needs better heals and buffs. CW needs better CC and debuffs, GF is pretty close but still needs better threat generation, and if GWF is ever going to fill its hybrid role it needs a buff in both Defense and Offense because right now GWF is a throwaway class...there is no reason to ever pick GWF over something else.
Firstly it's ROGUE not burlesque face paint, and second they should just remove PVP and this way the classes don't need to be "balanced" as balance kind of messes up the pve aspects of the game.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Fighters are Defenders, regardless of what type of Fighter they are. Guardian, Great Weapon...if they ever add some of the other types i.e. Battlerager, Tempest, Brawler...these are all still Fighters, and therefor Defenders.
Rogue is the ONLY true Striker in the game at the moment.
I think it is going to be up to the other classes to feat into combat advantage resistance, it seems most have access to it.
Dagger
Simple Light Thrown Melee
Critical: 19–20/x2
Range Increment: 10ft.
Type: Piercing or Slashing
Hardness 10
Cryptic has stated that this game is heavily influenced by pen and paper D&D. Removing the ability to throw a dagger is removing one of the fundamental attacks of a classic rogue
I completely agree, they should remove the PVP, the only put it in to appease the pvp kiddies. And talking about balancing pvp and DnD in the same breath is just wrong.
I thought the TR was the DPS class?
They do to much damage? oh...... yea.... I am sure somebody will get right on that....you know....rebalancing the entire game since it was built from the ground up as the TR being the damage dealer in every encounter....