TR has great burst 1v1 damage, but they do have some cool down until they can burst at the same level. Their dps is quite high during those bursts, but not over the same amount of time.
I like playing TR, but I like playing GWF, CW and DC as well. They just play differently and have different strengths.
Veteran MMO player; Veteran D&D Player
From M59, UO EQ, & DaoC to the present
I would counter and state you must not have played one or at least not effectively. It can unload those charges in 4 seconds and do way more damage than any other ranged at will.
I fully understand a rogue isn't going to use it as the only at will, rogue is a melee class. They will use the melee abilities and when something manages to get range, they will unload with a ton of damage at range.
As to should have the highest ranged at wills, it should absolutely be Harry Potter and Dr. House. Their ranged at wills do considerable less damage than TR melee at wills, as it should be. However they are ranged and TR should not do more than them at ranged. A melee should not have range at all, including the GWF and GF. I'd make an exception for a very low damage ranged pull for tanks with a decent cooldown.
P.S. I forgot to mention my source, it was in the stream they did the day before the last BWE.
Regardless of what the community managers (Not devs btw) said. It has been repeated many places that according to D&D 4e a GWF should do less damage than a TR. Maybe Cryptic is going to deviate from that who knows. Maybe they changed their minds and decided to follow the ruleset hence the nerfs on gwf for bw4? At the end of the day neither of us really knows. All I'm saying is according to the D&D rules this game is supposedly based upon the Rogue should by far do the most damage of the available classes in the game.
According to those same rules it's perfectly acceptable for rogues to have limited ranged attacks (Limited by charges) and that's why they have them. If you'd ever played a rogue in pvp you'd also understand why they need some form of ranged attack. Without it you'd hardly ever be able to secure kills. It's very easy to just run away from a rogue and very hard for a rogue to "stick" to a target that's running from them since they have no snares or anything that rogues have in most other games. Have you ever tried to catch a CW that can teleport away from you 3 times every 10 seconds while simultaneously chain CC'ing you?
If you wanna get rid of ALL forms of ranged from rogues then you'll have to give them better anti-kite mechanics than a 15 sec cd shadowstep. They'd need like crippling poison or something or it would just be a kitefest and you'd never kill anyone smart. Me personally? I'd rather just let rogues have a limited form of ranged damage than give them snares.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Regardless of what the community managers (Not devs btw) said. It has been repeated many places that according to D&D 4e a GWF should do less damage than a TR. Maybe Cryptic is going to deviate from that who knows. Maybe they changed their minds and decided to follow the ruleset hence the nerfs on gwf for bw4? At the end of the day neither of us really knows. All I'm saying is according to the D&D rules this game is supposedly based upon the Rogue should by far do the most damage of the available classes in the game.
According to those same rules it's perfectly acceptable for rogues to have limited ranged attacks (Limited by charges) and that's why they have them. If you'd ever played a rogue in pvp you'd also understand why they need some form of ranged attack. Without it you'd hardly ever be able to secure kills. It's very easy to just run away from a rogue and very hard for a rogue to "stick" to a target that's running from them since they have no snares or anything that rogues have in most other games. Have you ever tried to catch a CW that can teleport away from you 3 times every 10 seconds while simultaneously chain CC'ing you?
If you wanna get rid of ALL forms of ranged from rogues then you'll have to give them better anti-kite mechanics than a 15 sec cd shadowstep. They'd need like crippling poison or something or it would just be a kitefest and you'd never kill anyone smart. Me personally? I'd rather just let rogues have a limited form of ranged damage than give them snares.
I'm going to have to assume the community managers that work for PW are in constant contact with the devs on what to relay, I assume that is their exact job description.
I've had a lot of experience with the TR in pvp btw. Guess what? It is just as easy for a rogue to walk away and reset the fight. Their anti kite is the huge amount of damage they can do during their engage time. I guess you just want to be able to chase everyone down and smoke them in a few seconds with their mistakes being much more costly than any you could make. The TR already has huge advantages over the other two melee classes, why does it need yet another one over them and the ranged classes?
I'm going to have to assume the community managers that work for PW are in constant contact with the devs on what to relay, I assume that is their exact job description.
I've had a lot of experience with the TR in pvp btw. Guess what? It is just as easy for a rogue to walk away and reset the fight. Their anti kite is the huge amount of damage they can do during their engage time. I guess you just want to be able to chase everyone down and smoke them in a few seconds with their mistakes being much more costly than any you could make. The TR already has huge advantages over the other two melee classes, why does it need yet another one over them and the ranged classes?
So by this logic you think WoW rogues would be fine in PVP without crippling poison or deadly throw with non-permanent stealth? Why don't you go try that out for me and let me know how it goes. If you can get a decent arena rating I'll give you $100. Doesn't seem like you really understand pvp mechanics all that well
Guess we'll just agree to disagree. Nobody is changing anyones mind.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So by this logic you think WoW rogues would be fine in PVP without crippling poison or deadly throw with non-permanent stealth? Why don't you go try that out for me and let me know how it goes. If you can get a decent arena rating I'll give you $100. Doesn't seem like you really understand pvp mechanics all that well
Guess we'll just agree to disagree. Nobody is changing anyones mind.
Nice strawman bro. Unfortunately this isn't WoW, or fortunately. I guess it depends on your perspective. Even you can understand the mechanics needed is going to be vastly different between the two games? Please tell me you can understand this simple point?
Nice strawman bro. Unfortunately this isn't WoW, or fortunately. I guess it depends on your perspective. Even you can understand the mechanics needed is going to be vastly different between the two games? Please tell me you can understand this simple point?
Yeah that's pretty obvious but the point I'm making still stands. If you play a melee class with no slows and no ranged damage and attempt to pvp. You're gonna get demolished. End of story.
Actually part of the reason rogues are so broken is their mobility and survivability. Heck, if the TR could generate threat in pve they would out perform a GF. I have no issues what so ever with their damage and skills. I have serious issues over the HP and tankability of the class.
I actually imagine that with 1 cleric and 4 rogues you could clear any dungeon in this game. The other classes are just fluff and gimmicky.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yeah that's pretty obvious but the point I'm making still stands. If you play a melee class with no slows and no ranged damage and attempt to pvp. You're gonna get demolished. End of story.
Well I have some great news for you! TR has slows.
Nothing on the level of crippling poison. It's still very very easy to kite rogues in NWO. That's why their ranged at-will gets so much use.
this games rogue has a lot od CC. daze is death in pvp then they have double dodge and teleport. then oh yeah snares. blind etc. people that say it is a damage dealing class only are being ignorant.
Here is the NUMBER ONE fact that so many pro rogues are purposely 'trying' to ignore.
There is DOZENS of posts about the game imbalance of the rogue class. theres a HUGE chunk of players that( YES play rogues themselves )saying the rogue needs a tonedown. let me rephrase for the dummies out there. there are DOOZZEENNS of complaints on the rogue class... you do not see dozens of people screaming how insanely strong a CW is.. or how a GWF is killing their whole team . or if you want a example in PVE when I was playing a GWF this weekend is was not fun to charge into a group of 5-6 mobs and get 1-2 attacks off before the rogue that teleported in before me has just murdered allll the mobs in a few seconds and doesn't even take much damage.
SO to sum up the numberone thing so many of you are trying to skip... there are dozens of rogue is too strong posts. and NO OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME THAT PEOPLE THINKS IS RUINING THE GAMEPLAY. This is a HUUGE hint to the problem. stop being babies and trying to say the rogue is fine as is.
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roadkillaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I tried all the other classes during the last 3 betas.
the only class that was fun and worked well for me was the rogue.
the other classes need buffs otherwise all you'll have is all the classes being meh to play and the only sound you'll hear on the server is crickets after the dust settles.
I've played nearly every major MMO for almost 15 years now. People have cried about the rogue/stealth/assassin class being overpowered in almost every single one of them that had any sort of PVP whatsoever. Please tell me. What else is new?
Here's to hoping that Cryptic developers aren't the type to cave to the forum kiddies.
I've played nearly every major MMO for almost 15 years now. People have cried about the rogue/stealth/assassin class being overpowered in almost every single one of them that had any sort of PVP whatsoever. Please tell me. What else is new?
Here's to hoping that Cryptic developers aren't the type to cave to the forum kiddies.
Unfortunately they have been caving in quite a bit since betas started.
Just out of curiosity. The people that are so insistent that rogues are OP what level did you get to? Are you basing your class balance opinions around lvl 19 pvp? If you've played any mmorpg before you'll know that at low levels classes are rarely even close to balanced especially in pvp. Considering we were capped at lvl 50 in all the BWE's and lvl 60 will be the open beta cap I don't think anyone is really in a position to say whether or not something is OP til we actually hit max level. But for the sake of argument perhaps all the Rogue nerf cryers should head over to the CW forums and check out the lvl 50 CW AMA thread. There's a level 50 CW in there that claims a rogue NEVER did more than 15% higher damage than him in an instance. Which sounds MORE than reasonable considering all the extra stuff CW bring to the table that rogue does not. Really bothers me that people die in pvp then come kicking and screaming to the forums crying for nerfs when nothing is actually wrong. Stop spreading your uninformed crybaby nonsense plz.
Quotes from his thread:
I would say rogues do about 15% more damage in the dungeon runs I've done, however I think control wizard is a stronger class overall because we bring so much CC and utiltiy on top of our damage. With that said I think that at level 60 wizards will be even closer if not higher than rogues on the damage charts. The build I used was not optimal and I would have changed it if I had enough zen for another respec. On top of that the eye of the storm class feature which unlocks at 50 is immensley powerful and I didn't have it in my dungeon runs, having that maxed will increase our damage A LOT as well as having my optimal spec I think I could come very close to rogues if not higher, but with the build I run I am also significantly debuffing the mitigation of mobs so I end up increasing the damage of my whole party which kind of skews the numbers a bit.
yeah, I was doing dungeons with a really skilled rogue the other day and that was the one that did about 15% more damage than me. I did dungeons with another rogue at 50 earlier in the day and literally doubled his damage, generally I think 15% is about where rogues dps will fall given equal skill, and I agree that that margin is arguably too low given the CC and utility that wizards have. Control Wizards should not pull equal dps to rogues... If you want to top the charts every game play a rogue, if you want to play a really fun class that does a lot of damage while having tons of cc and utility, play control wizard. Our CC is far better than a rogues at level 50 so if we did equal damage it would be imbalanced.
That said, at lower levels rogue does more than 15% more damage, and rogue is by far the easiest class to solo and level as, soI understand the sentiment of people feeling it is overpowered, but at level 50 I don't think it is, it is by far the best soloer, but in group play it is pretty balanced in my opinion.
I'd be willing to wager that MOST of the people that have problems with Rogue never leveled to 50 and things will only balance out more at 60.
I actually imagine that with 1 cleric and 4 rogues you could clear any dungeon in this game. The other classes are just fluff and gimmicky.
Haha. Just wait for the epic dungeons.
Hint of the day: rogues get oneshotted by bosses there. And bosses love full 360 aoes.
I guess there will be a mass reroll to CW after people have actually seen the endgame. A single target class just won't cut it when you get gazillion of adds in the equation every minute.
There is DOZENS of posts about the game imbalance of the rogue class. theres a HUGE chunk of players that( YES play rogues themselves )saying the rogue needs a tonedown. let me rephrase for the dummies out there. there are DOOZZEENNS of complaints on the rogue class... you do not see dozens of people screaming how insanely strong a CW is.. or how a GWF is killing their whole team . or if you want a example in PVE when I was playing a GWF this weekend is was not fun to charge into a group of 5-6 mobs and get 1-2 attacks off before the rogue that teleported in before me has just murdered allll the mobs in a few seconds and doesn't even take much damage.
SO to sum up the numberone thing so many of you are trying to skip... there are dozens of rogue is too strong posts. and NO OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME THAT PEOPLE THINKS IS RUINING THE GAMEPLAY. This is a HUUGE hint to the problem. stop being babies and trying to say the rogue is fine as is.
That there are posts complaining about the same topic doesn't indicate an actual problem. I see why you would think that, it is a fairly significant logical fallacy. There are two main problems here.
The first, and most relevant, is that D&D rules are both different from and in this case more important than general MMO "class balancing." It's great that WoW and other MMO's seek to homogenize all of their classes so that no one class is generally more powerful than any other class in any given situation. But that's not D&D. In D&D classes are more diverse and specialized. The TR is a striker class that deals significant damage to single targets with a little bit of AoE. They're also not built to take a whole lot of damage and need to be played very tactically at higher levels or they're toast. NWO has fairly simple and straightforward controls, which make the learning curve reasonably short to play a reasonably good TR - especially at lower levels.
The second problem is the argument you're using. I recall way back in the day learning about the 3/30 rule in marketing. When you have a positive experience you tend to tell three people, but when you have a negative experience you tend to tell about 30 people. Kind of a formalized "bad news travels fast." Majority arguments can have some validity, as shown by the general success of the democratic process. But they're also prone to being easily exploited. For example, your logic would mean that slavery is clearly a good thing since at one point the majority of people were in favor of it. The majority can be wrong just as eaily as the minority, particularly when they're arguing based on a faulty premise.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Just out of curiosity. The people that are so insistent that rogues are OP what level did you get to? Are you basing your class balance opinions around lvl 19 pvp? If you've played any mmorpg before you'll know that at low levels classes are rarely even close to balanced especially in pvp. Considering we were capped at lvl 50 in all the BWE's and lvl 60 will be the open beta cap I don't think anyone is really in a position to say whether or not something is OP til we actually hit max level. But for the sake of argument perhaps all the Rogue nerf cryers should head over to the CW forums and check out the lvl 50 CW AMA thread. There's a level 50 CW in there that claims a rogue NEVER did more than 15% higher damage than him in an instance. Which sounds MORE than reasonable considering all the extra stuff CW bring to the table that rogue does not. Really bothers me that people die in pvp then come kicking and screaming to the forums crying for nerfs when nothing is actually wrong. Stop spreading your uninformed crybaby nonsense plz.
It's not just the Wizards either, there were Clerics doing comparable if not better damage than Rogues, as a few mentioned here.
I kept placing high on both healing and damage regularly. I don't think I was ever at the bottom of the damage list in skirmishes or dungeons.
Which is what makes all of these "Rogues need a nerf!!!!1" threads so annoying. Yes, Rogues start off strong, but as these higher level Wizards and Clerics show, they catch up, and if they actually try, they can even surpass Rogue damage in some cases.
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kotliMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 577
edited April 2013
The problem is that the non rogue classes get utility powers early game and dont get DPS powers until later on. Also later on the mobs start using 360 AOE attacks = Rogue need to stop DPSing or die.
You guys realize that this is based on DnD right...not WOW? I don't ever remember a campaign where my cleric was like hey your doing too much damage to the thief...
Having played D&D for 30+ years, I laugh at the argument that rouges do to much damage vs. a cleric. Go back to WoW. Plus I have some clan mates who love their DC in pvp. The problem with PVP in any game is a bunch of lone wolves running off to do their own thing. Play the style you like and play it well, then you won't need to complain about the other classes.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Having played D&D for 30+ years, I laugh at the argument that rouges do to much damage vs. a cleric. Go back to WoW. Plus I have some clan mates who love their DC in pvp. The problem with PVP in any game is a bunch of lone wolves running off to do their own thing. Play the style you like and play it well, then you won't need to complain about the other classes.
There is a good amount of lone wolf play in the current PvP system. Well at least if you want to win the matches there is. I can't tell you the number of games I won because I would keep the two side nodes flipped while everyone fought in the middle.
There is a good amount of lone wolf play in the current PvP system. Well at least if you want to win the matches there is. I can't tell you the number of games I won because I would keep the two side nodes flipped while everyone fought in the middle.
You just don't give up do you :P People have brought up evidence of CW and DC both doing more damage at higher levels than rogues in instances and you're STILL on the "Nerf Rogues" bandwagon? I'd dare say if CW and DC are out damaging them then they need buffs not nerfs. It's against D&D rules AND game design for rogues to be behind those 2 classes in dmg.
Also not sure what PVP matches you were playing but I can say with relative confidence that almost every time whichever team had more CW's won the match. Not who had more rogues. If you have 3 CW's on enemy team good luck doing anything. No diminishing returns on CC in PVP is the most broken thing I've ever seen.
Not sure if being trolled or you just crazy person?
Also not sure what PVP matches you were playing but I can say with relative confidence that almost every time whichever team had more CW's won the match. Not who had more rogues. If you have 3 CW's on enemy team good luck doing anything. No diminishing returns on CC in PVP is the most broken thing I've ever seen.
Seriously, I hated CWs in pvp. Rogues were fine if I blocked in time but the one thing I detest is being kited by a wizard, especially when they can just use a force push and freeze ray to keep me at bay. If TRs are the frothing FPS players, CWs are the trolls, and I HATE trolls more than someone who claims my mother's more promiscuous than I believed.
You just don't give up do you :P People have brought up evidence of CW and DC both doing more damage at higher levels than rogues in instances and you're STILL on the "Nerf Rogues" bandwagon? I'd dare say if CW and DC are out damaging them then they need buffs not nerfs. It's against D&D rules AND game design for rogues to be behind those 2 classes in dmg.
Also not sure what PVP matches you were playing but I can say with relative confidence that almost every time whichever team had more CW's won the match. Not who had more rogues. If you have 3 CW's on enemy team good luck doing anything. No diminishing returns on CC in PVP is the most broken thing I've ever seen.
Not sure if being trolled or you just crazy person?
I'm not even sure how to categorize your argument here. I'd say ad hominen since you attributed me as being crazy, but you attempted to disprove a quote of mine with claims I never made.
I was discussing loose strategy in 5v5 dominance arena. Where the winner is more determined by capping points than fighting in the middle. I often saw the team that had a ton of kills lose the game.
Why you are going off on CW and DC doing more damage than a TR I'm not sure of. If I am somehow upsetting you because of my critique of the TR, I apologize. Let try to keep the discussion on track though.
For those that think TR are overpowered because they do more damage than every other class. Here's further proof that TR are the ONLY Strikers in the game right now and as such SHOULD do much more damage than anyone else. I agree it's 100% stupid that they're releasing only 1 striker class at launch cause it makes them look overpowered but when you accept they're the only real dps class in game it makes sense. When Archer Ranger comes out I fully expect them to do similar damage and everyone can calm the hell down.
Quote from another thread:
Here is a quote from the D&D Player's Handbook:
"Fighter
CLASS TRAITS
Role: Defender. You are very tough and have the exceptional
ability to contain enemies in melee.
Power Source: Martial. You have become a master of
combat through endless hours of practice, determination,
and your own sheer physical toughness.
Key Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom,
Constitution
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail,
scale; light shield, heavy shield
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee,
simple ranged, military ranged
Bonus to Defense: +2 Fortitude
Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges per Day: 9 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: From the class skills list below, choose
three trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Athletics (Str), Endurance (Con), Heal
(Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Streetwise (Cha)
Build Options: Great weapon fighter, guardian fighter
Class Features: Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority,
Fighter Weapon Talent"
Maybe GWF aren't good enough at tanking to fulfill the defender job efficiently. If that's the case they're underpowered and need to be fixed. But they aren't broken cause they don't do TR damage. They aren't supposed to.
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zaketrinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
tacc, I agree.
Next post will say something to the effect: "This isn't DnD 4e. It's an MMO". Watch for it.
Next post will say something to the effect: "This isn't DnD 4e. It's an MMO". Watch for it.
Yeah I'm sure lol. People are silly Dev's themselves said they're trying to follow DnD 4e rules with this game as much as they can in an MMO setting. Pretty sure GWF being defenders works just fine in an MMO setting so that's not a valid argument in this case. If they wanted to release with 2 strikers instead of 2 defenders they could've made GWF a Barbarian or something else instead.
But it is true it is not the 4e Table, top it is an MMO. An MMO needs to have class balance if you want people to play and have fun. Which from most of the feedback I've seen the TR is not balanced.
Comments
I like playing TR, but I like playing GWF, CW and DC as well. They just play differently and have different strengths.
From M59, UO EQ, & DaoC to the present
According to those same rules it's perfectly acceptable for rogues to have limited ranged attacks (Limited by charges) and that's why they have them. If you'd ever played a rogue in pvp you'd also understand why they need some form of ranged attack. Without it you'd hardly ever be able to secure kills. It's very easy to just run away from a rogue and very hard for a rogue to "stick" to a target that's running from them since they have no snares or anything that rogues have in most other games. Have you ever tried to catch a CW that can teleport away from you 3 times every 10 seconds while simultaneously chain CC'ing you?
If you wanna get rid of ALL forms of ranged from rogues then you'll have to give them better anti-kite mechanics than a 15 sec cd shadowstep. They'd need like crippling poison or something or it would just be a kitefest and you'd never kill anyone smart. Me personally? I'd rather just let rogues have a limited form of ranged damage than give them snares.
I'm going to have to assume the community managers that work for PW are in constant contact with the devs on what to relay, I assume that is their exact job description.
I've had a lot of experience with the TR in pvp btw. Guess what? It is just as easy for a rogue to walk away and reset the fight. Their anti kite is the huge amount of damage they can do during their engage time. I guess you just want to be able to chase everyone down and smoke them in a few seconds with their mistakes being much more costly than any you could make. The TR already has huge advantages over the other two melee classes, why does it need yet another one over them and the ranged classes?
Guess we'll just agree to disagree. Nobody is changing anyones mind.
Nice strawman bro. Unfortunately this isn't WoW, or fortunately. I guess it depends on your perspective. Even you can understand the mechanics needed is going to be vastly different between the two games? Please tell me you can understand this simple point?
I actually imagine that with 1 cleric and 4 rogues you could clear any dungeon in this game. The other classes are just fluff and gimmicky.
Well I have some great news for you! TR has slows.
this games rogue has a lot od CC. daze is death in pvp then they have double dodge and teleport. then oh yeah snares. blind etc. people that say it is a damage dealing class only are being ignorant.
There is DOZENS of posts about the game imbalance of the rogue class. theres a HUGE chunk of players that( YES play rogues themselves )saying the rogue needs a tonedown. let me rephrase for the dummies out there. there are DOOZZEENNS of complaints on the rogue class... you do not see dozens of people screaming how insanely strong a CW is.. or how a GWF is killing their whole team . or if you want a example in PVE when I was playing a GWF this weekend is was not fun to charge into a group of 5-6 mobs and get 1-2 attacks off before the rogue that teleported in before me has just murdered allll the mobs in a few seconds and doesn't even take much damage.
SO to sum up the numberone thing so many of you are trying to skip... there are dozens of rogue is too strong posts. and NO OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME THAT PEOPLE THINKS IS RUINING THE GAMEPLAY. This is a HUUGE hint to the problem. stop being babies and trying to say the rogue is fine as is.
the only class that was fun and worked well for me was the rogue.
the other classes need buffs otherwise all you'll have is all the classes being meh to play and the only sound you'll hear on the server is crickets after the dust settles.
Here's to hoping that Cryptic developers aren't the type to cave to the forum kiddies.
Unfortunately they have been caving in quite a bit since betas started.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Quotes from his thread:
I'd be willing to wager that MOST of the people that have problems with Rogue never leveled to 50 and things will only balance out more at 60.
Haha. Just wait for the epic dungeons.
Hint of the day: rogues get oneshotted by bosses there. And bosses love full 360 aoes.
I guess there will be a mass reroll to CW after people have actually seen the endgame. A single target class just won't cut it when you get gazillion of adds in the equation every minute.
That there are posts complaining about the same topic doesn't indicate an actual problem. I see why you would think that, it is a fairly significant logical fallacy. There are two main problems here.
The first, and most relevant, is that D&D rules are both different from and in this case more important than general MMO "class balancing." It's great that WoW and other MMO's seek to homogenize all of their classes so that no one class is generally more powerful than any other class in any given situation. But that's not D&D. In D&D classes are more diverse and specialized. The TR is a striker class that deals significant damage to single targets with a little bit of AoE. They're also not built to take a whole lot of damage and need to be played very tactically at higher levels or they're toast. NWO has fairly simple and straightforward controls, which make the learning curve reasonably short to play a reasonably good TR - especially at lower levels.
The second problem is the argument you're using. I recall way back in the day learning about the 3/30 rule in marketing. When you have a positive experience you tend to tell three people, but when you have a negative experience you tend to tell about 30 people. Kind of a formalized "bad news travels fast." Majority arguments can have some validity, as shown by the general success of the democratic process. But they're also prone to being easily exploited. For example, your logic would mean that slavery is clearly a good thing since at one point the majority of people were in favor of it. The majority can be wrong just as eaily as the minority, particularly when they're arguing based on a faulty premise.
It's not just the Wizards either, there were Clerics doing comparable if not better damage than Rogues, as a few mentioned here.
Which is what makes all of these "Rogues need a nerf!!!!1" threads so annoying. Yes, Rogues start off strong, but as these higher level Wizards and Clerics show, they catch up, and if they actually try, they can even surpass Rogue damage in some cases.
There is a good amount of lone wolf play in the current PvP system. Well at least if you want to win the matches there is. I can't tell you the number of games I won because I would keep the two side nodes flipped while everyone fought in the middle.
Also not sure what PVP matches you were playing but I can say with relative confidence that almost every time whichever team had more CW's won the match. Not who had more rogues. If you have 3 CW's on enemy team good luck doing anything. No diminishing returns on CC in PVP is the most broken thing I've ever seen.
Not sure if being trolled or you just crazy person?
Seriously, I hated CWs in pvp. Rogues were fine if I blocked in time but the one thing I detest is being kited by a wizard, especially when they can just use a force push and freeze ray to keep me at bay. If TRs are the frothing FPS players, CWs are the trolls, and I HATE trolls more than someone who claims my mother's more promiscuous than I believed.
I'm not even sure how to categorize your argument here. I'd say ad hominen since you attributed me as being crazy, but you attempted to disprove a quote of mine with claims I never made.
I was discussing loose strategy in 5v5 dominance arena. Where the winner is more determined by capping points than fighting in the middle. I often saw the team that had a ton of kills lose the game.
Why you are going off on CW and DC doing more damage than a TR I'm not sure of. If I am somehow upsetting you because of my critique of the TR, I apologize. Let try to keep the discussion on track though.
Quote from another thread:
Maybe GWF aren't good enough at tanking to fulfill the defender job efficiently. If that's the case they're underpowered and need to be fixed. But they aren't broken cause they don't do TR damage. They aren't supposed to.
Next post will say something to the effect: "This isn't DnD 4e. It's an MMO". Watch for it.