I have played Rogue since BWE1, Always to max level within the first day or so. I have leveled each other class to mid 20's early 30's. Each class preforms their "Role Specific" duty the way it was intended. Yes the CW needed a boost to their actual Control abilities and they got it. The Cleric's self heal was a bit to powerful so it got reduced but their party heals are good. Could be a bit better to bring them on par with using a PoH but it will be worked on. GF and GWF are working as intended. GF's damage mitigation with their shield is working again now. No they can just throw up their shield and negate AoE damage, but then it was NEVER supposed to work that way. GWF's are AoE Guardian/Striker Hybrids (NOTE: Guardian before Striker) They ARE NOT supposed to be able to match up to the damage a PURE STRIKER class can do. They are good at doing consistent damage to a large number of mobs at the same time, while the Rogue is good at doing Burst/Spike damage against a Single Target.
Bottom line, all the whining about Nerfs and Moaning about how OPed the Rogues are is coming Primarily from The IDIOTIC PvP Community. Cryptic needs to stop listening to them. I have nothing against PvP, but it needs to be COMPLETELY SEPARATE from PvE. Completely Different Coding, Period. If they can't do that then the PvP aspect needs to be removed entirely until they can, or it is going to Ruin the PvE side of the Game.
Every single time the PvE community is going to clash with the PvP community until a true balance can be reached. Until then you are only going to get more of the same. I honestly don't know what Cryptic was thinking trying to use the same coding for both aspects, unless they wanted to create this rift in the community. Which would be stupid on their part since all they will do at that point is lose potential customers.
Bottom line is that the solution is quite simple. Separate the coding, give the Rogue back their Damage in PvE and then worry about "Balancing" the damage output and survivability of each class in PvP. TWO SEPARATE FORMS OF CODE. It's not that hard.
I don't know what everyone's getting all up in arms about. Rogues don't even exist in this game. I say let them nerf rogues into the ground. It won't affect anyone playing this game.
I felt the sting of the nerf bat to the rouges this time around
......................blinks........................ I can only assume your trying to maybe make a joke of the damage they do still.
Played my rogue half the weekend. testing numbers. exact numbers not ignorant guesswork that 95% of these posters claim.
PvE in 4 dungeon runs( no foundry sure does not count ) results were:
GF who lead and started fights first averaged 65k
CW going to town cause GF was good averaged about 100k could of been higher but was doing his role of a lot of cc
DC did not really count was still was around 45k
GWF this one is sad. they got HAMSTER this beta for sure...55k.. yes below the GF...
rogue who was me.. averaged just under 200k.....
This is with RL friends all very close to same level and all testing and writeing down notes and numbers all weekend.
PvP...... this we did like crazy about 25-28 matches. the rogue is silly here.. dominateing retardedly 99% of every match. it is pathetic to even watch and do as im sure most playing vs rogues will agree and most rogues will scream to deny loving their rapeing.
rogues are DPS. I love the nasty class a lot. but as a tester and adult I have to say the rogue dps is too high in pve. its DOUBLE every class and that's stupid. should not be more then 50-60% max. In pvp the damage is more like 150% more then EVERY other class. which again is plain HAMSTER. dps should NOT do that extreme more. 30-35% more in pvp should be MAX. 1200-2300 hits &^%$# HAMSTER. In 90%+ of every match rogue kills = 15-25... ALL other classes... 6 if they got lucky and or were good players
I know most of you are roguefans and so am I.. I however can admit the truth of the facts from testing. not guessing.
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tyler23434Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited April 2013
Yes the rogue needs nerfing. You rogue players forget that ALL classes where nerfed in Beta 4 The rogue just got the better deal compared to all other classes.
Yes the rogue needs nerfing. You rogue players forget that ALL classes where nerfed in Beta 4 The rogue just got the better deal compared to all other classes.
yeah nerf em so they do less than the GWF...that will be great....so then no one will play them.....yep thats what they should do? lol hint hint /sarcasm, not like they are needed for traps anyways.
I don't know what everyone's getting all up in arms about. Rogues don't even exist in this game. I say let them nerf rogues into the ground. It won't affect anyone playing this game.
yeah nerf em so they do less than the GWF...that will be great....so then no one will play them.....yep thats what they should do? lol hint hint /sarcasm, not like they are needed for traps anyways.
This is exactly what I was talking about. ignorant claims..
Rogues right NOW are doing 3times + what a GWF can do. 3 TIMES!!!!!.. that is a FACT not an opinion.that is in PVE and more so in PvP.
they should remove long range at will ,that at will do more damage then at will skills of others ranged calses...so rogue can attack u from stealth,then jump behind back. then stun for long time,then finish u of whit ranged at will if u try to run from them and that isnt op?
as a rogue i don't see why the other rogues are complaining, 1 shotting most mobs isn't my idea of a balanced game.
U 50 in blacklake???
Im doing great compared to the other rogues I come across in dungeons and im lvl 50 , no way in hell im 1 shotting any content my level.
sorry but ur trollin and u suck at it.
as for nerf, u high ?? a good one will drop u in 1 v 1 , so hit em in pairs we wont have much chance as we can not take dmg for HAMSTER. knockback destroys us as we dont get to combo up, mages have heaps of it, knock down is not better for us.
need to learn to play to your strengths and not cry about dying to other classes. Every class has a weakness , that's how balance is created.
This is exactly what I was talking about. ignorant claims..
Rogues right NOW are doing 3times + what a GWF can do. 3 TIMES!!!!!.. that is a FACT not an opinion.that is in PVE and more so in PvP.
but are they ?? is that on single target ? is it on multi target ? I know we dont have much for multi target unlike the GWF, classes have a role , single target isn't the strongest for GWF , taking dmg and hitting multiple mobs isn't the tricksters either so if u want to nerf their dmg that cool , give us the same armor as the GWF and make our attacks hit all the mobs in our front ark and u have a deal, u also have a GWF but hey, cant win em all.
but are they ?? is that on single target ? is it on multi target ? I know we dont have much for multi target unlike the GWF, classes have a role , single target isn't the strongest for GWF , taking dmg and hitting multiple mobs isn't the tricksters either so if u want to nerf their dmg that cool , give us the same armor as the GWF and make our attacks hit all the mobs in our front ark and u have a deal, u also have a GWF but hey, cant win em all.
but instances are 10+mobs all time so they are multi target whole time and rogue still out damage gwf in total damage by 30-40%
rogues are DPS. I love the nasty class a lot. but as a tester and adult I have to say the rogue dps is too high in pve. its DOUBLE every class and that's stupid. should not be more then 50-60% max.
With all roles being important in NWN, it makes sense to have the striker do significantly more damage. It's the reason you bring one along. Just like I would bring a CW for control/dps, and a GWF for offtank/aoedps, and a cleric for healing/dps, and a Guard for tank/leader role. Having a striker do huge amounts of DPS does not threaten any other role.
In instances, there is so much potiental clouding factors in the end damage tally. For example, I had double the next person in my group. But, lets consider the specifics:
I was level 25, everyone else was 20 or 21!
Who knows how well they play
Who knows what builds they are trying
Who knows how many breaks they took (I didn't take any!)
And at the end, I didn't say to myself, sure wish I had brought another rogue...
I'm not saying 150% more isn't too much, but be careful when comparing end-instance numbers (unless you have a sufficiently large sample). It also matters what the breakdown is THROUGHOUT the various levels. Maybe around level 40, its different from 20 and 60, for every class. Do you make sweeping statements based on your 4 runs at one of those tiers, without knowledge of the others?
lvl 50+ gwf dps in high level delves floats around 70% of rogue's based on the damage dealt chart (which is just where you'd expect it to be). if you consider this gwf before nerf had the top dps which was just wrong based on roles.
rogue dps isn't "too high" compared to other classes, other classes just pick up in dps much later. a sensible change would be giving more damage to other classes at lower levels leaving high level as is.
What class would you exclude from your party to take another rogue?
3x rogues +2x cleric or 4x rogues and celric thats how will end game dungeons will run if they dont buff up damage of gwf,gf and cw since as is now no big use of them in party they only slow u dawn a lot
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frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
......................blinks........................ I can only assume your trying to maybe make a joke of the damage they do still.
Played my rogue half the weekend. testing numbers. exact numbers not ignorant guesswork that 95% of these posters claim.
PvE in 4 dungeon runs( no foundry sure does not count ) results were:
GF who lead and started fights first averaged 65k
CW going to town cause GF was good averaged about 100k could of been higher but was doing his role of a lot of cc
DC did not really count was still was around 45k
GWF this one is sad. they got HAMSTER this beta for sure...55k.. yes below the GF...
rogue who was me.. averaged just under 200k.....
This is with RL friends all very close to same level and all testing and writeing down notes and numbers all weekend.
PvP...... this we did like crazy about 25-28 matches. the rogue is silly here.. dominateing retardedly 99% of every match. it is pathetic to even watch and do as im sure most playing vs rogues will agree and most rogues will scream to deny loving their rapeing.
rogues are DPS. I love the nasty class a lot. but as a tester and adult I have to say the rogue dps is too high in pve. its DOUBLE every class and that's stupid. should not be more then 50-60% max. In pvp the damage is more like 150% more then EVERY other class. which again is plain HAMSTER. dps should NOT do that extreme more. 30-35% more in pvp should be MAX. 1200-2300 hits &^%$# HAMSTER. In 90%+ of every match rogue kills = 15-25... ALL other classes... 6 if they got lucky and or were good players
I know most of you are roguefans and so am I.. I however can admit the truth of the facts from testing. not guessing.
Finally, a true beta tester and not someone trying to convince the devs the rogues are fine so they can steam roll through open beta / release. You sir, have seen the same thing my group has seen. The Rogue in Beta 4 is still very powerful, compared to the rest. All I can gather is either the community simply wants a truly OP class with no balance, or they simply do not know how to play a rogue. I want a balanced game where u have fun playing any class, not forced to choose one cause the others "suck" compared to it.
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frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
3x rogues +2x cleric or 4x rogues and celric thats how will end game dungeons will run if they dont buff up damage of gwf,gf and cw since as is now no big use of them in party they only slow u dawn a lot
THIS !!!! Hands down.
I would even go so far as to say 3x rogue 1 CW and 1 Cleric
CW is there to help save the cleric when the cleric draws agro
3x rogues +2x cleric or 4x rogues and celric thats how will end game dungeons will run if they dont buff up damage of gwf,gf and cw since as is now no big use of them in party they only slow u dawn a lot
I think this kind of min/maxing DPS speed run attitude is less applicable in NWN than say, GW2, but the point is....
You just said other classes need to be buffed, yet instead you call for a nerf of rogue DPS. The problem does not lay with the rogue. Classes in NWN have roles. If you feel that one of those classes is not living up to their role, then why don't you make suggestions on how to improve them? Also, their primary roles are not DPS. So, are CW's not controlly enough? Are GWF not aoe/off tanky enough? Are GF's not tanky enough? Those are the questions to address to ensure that groups want one of everybody.
Then again, there will always be those people who think every class should be top tier DPS if they want it to be, and for that I blame GW2.
This was just posted on the Control Wizard forums...
jkaplan92: "I would say rogues do about 15% more damage in the dungeon runs I've done, however I think control wizard is a stronger class overall because we bring so much CC and utiltiy on top of our damage. With that said I think that at level 60 wizards will be even closer if not higher than rogues on the damage charts."
That's a control wizard saying they're fine, if not better, than rogues... A CW, you guys are claiming are not worth taking in a group.
The point is that in groups, there is FAR to much variation to make sweeping statements on class balance based on your experience alone. So, realize your perspective is but one piece of a broader picture. You need data on thousands of dungeons runs, at all level tiers, to make true comparisons.
With all roles being important in NWN, it makes sense to have the striker do significantly more damage. It's the reason you bring one along. Just like I would bring a CW for control/dps, and a GWF for offtank/aoedps, and a cleric for healing/dps, and a Guard for tank/leader role. Having a striker do huge amounts of DPS does not threaten any other role.
Not to mention that when you have a CW, a GF, and a Cleric, the rogue can do a LOT more damage. Having a CW lock down a boss or elite mob for a few seconds at a time gives a rogue the ability to dump some cooldowns and get in some serious hurting before having to run away again.
Having a good GF keep the heat off you when you're stealth is off both makes it so much easier to get combat advantage, and your stealth meter regenerates a LOT faster when you aren't getting wailed on. Also, GF's have an encounter that improves party damage mitigation and AP generation, it also restores the block meter, so they should be smashing it whenever possible. I've had boss fights where I smashed my daily 4-6 times because everything lined up magically.
Having a cleric chain mobs or Guardian of faith knock down goes in the same category as CW. Hallowed ground adds to damage and resistance. Divine armor and Astral shield give you extra protection so you can afford to eat a few animated attacks when you have cooldowns burning.
Sure a rogue can do a pile of damage, but they can do way more when they have support from the other classses.
I don't know how many of you have ever played PnP D&D, but that's exactly how a party works. A cleric can try to whack a mob, or cast a buff on himself and do decent damage, OR they can buff the HAMSTER out of the strikers in the party and watch them ruin everything. A group of nothing but barbarians or rogues will do pretty good, but if you toss 1 or 2 support characters in there and things get out of hand in a hurry.
Cryptic's philosophy was to make this game more D&D than classic MMO, and I think they're doing a dam fine job. People need to get over themselves. This is a game that strays from the cookie cutter template of every other MMO, and I hope for the sake of my interest in the game that it remains so.
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xshadesx88Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited April 2013
Ppl screaming rogue nerf dont know how to play thier class and should no pvp, if u as a CW or any of the other classes stand in one place while a rogue steamrolls your toon, you dont belong in pvp LEARN TO DODGE when u see the rogue in the air about to do the daze move dodge it. i would like to meet 1 rogue that could take on my CW once u avoid that daze move they are screwed and trust me is soo easy to avoid lol. I find it funny how most ppl whinning here they stand in one place while the rogue destroys them /facepalm
Not to mention that when you have a CW, a GF, and a Cleric, the rogue can do a LOT more damage. Having a CW lock down a boss or elite mob for a few seconds at a time gives a rogue the ability to dump some cooldowns and get in some serious hurting before having to run away again.
Having a good GF keep the heat off you when you're stealth is off both makes it so much easier to get combat advantage, and your stealth meter regenerates a LOT faster when you aren't getting wailed on. Also, GF's have an encounter that improves party damage mitigation and AP generation, it also restores the block meter, so they should be smashing it whenever possible. I've had boss fights where I smashed my daily 4-6 times because everything lined up magically.
Having a cleric chain mobs or Guardian of faith knock down goes in the same category as CW. Hallowed ground adds to damage and resistance. Divine armor and Astral shield give you extra protection so you can afford to eat a few animated attacks when you have cooldowns burning.
Sure a rogue can do a pile of damage, but they can do way more when they have support from the other classses.
I don't know how many of you have ever played PnP D&D, but that's exactly how a party works. A cleric can try to whack a mob, or cast a buff on himself and do decent damage, OR they can buff the HAMSTER out of the strikers in the party and watch them ruin everything. A group of nothing but barbarians or rogues will do pretty good, but if you toss 1 or 2 support characters in there and things get out of hand in a hurry.
Cryptic's philosophy was to make this game more D&D than classic MMO, and I think they're doing a dam fine job. People need to get over themselves. This is a game that strays from the cookie cutter template of every other MMO, and I hope for the sake of my interest in the game that it remains so.
God yes, thank you for this post. The guys that posted above us are using damage done as the sole comparison between classes. You point out that the ROLE of each classes enhances synergy, allowing everyone to play better
Rogues have high dps .....thats about it , dodge is manual so there is no innate bonus to dodge as they would normally have. they provide little else as a standard to the group other than dps.
GF .....has high armor / AC , best dmg mitigation in the game , high threat moves and taunts , can absorb dmg for the group, does attack multiple mobs. does not have high dps or mobility.
CW.... solid ranged dps lower than rogues but has immense amounts of control, slows , several knock back / ups and stuns. Has low AC but as ranged doesn't need to be right in the mess of it.
lastly the GWF ( I fell I dont have to explain DC's low dmg )...no not the highest dps , not the highest armor. It does however have attacks that hit full front ark , high dmg knock up / back attacks, higher armour than the CW and TR. No your right , not the best at any thing realy but also not the worst at any thing, its a brawler and it does that just great.
The bottom line is they all have pro's and con's, and while i can sympathize that the GWF likely needs a bit of a buff in dmg the other classes , especially the TR do not need to be nerfed to accommodate that.
If PvP is the source of your tears than i first ask you one question, did you really choose a D&D based game purely for its PvP? Really?? If the answer is still yes than I would have to say learn your class, then learn the others, you will never beat what you don't bother to understand. the TR has its weakness AoE knock back / up is a huge one. It not only wastes our stealth but drops it even more because of the dmg reduces duration thing, AoE stun is the same story. Now I'm pretty sure almost every class except TR has one of those. CW can use ray of frost to slow and stun us setting up for a world of hurt from them or any one else, no one else can do that ? really??
Think about what your doing and things wont a such a massive issue, and remember, there are good players and bad ones, just cause u want to be a good one doesn't mean you are, just cause you were in another game doesn't mean you are.
There will be more classes to come and they will have new roles just as they all do in D&D best learn to deal with that.
"I would say rogues do about 15% more damage in the dungeon runs I've done, however I think control wizard is a stronger class overall because we bring so much CC and utiltiy on top of our damage. With that said I think that at level 60 wizards will be even closer if not higher than rogues on the damage charts."
This. You're likely a very good wizard playing with less skilled rogues. I was typically doing around 10% more damage than other rogues I partied with, and 30-40% more than an average wizard. Every now and again I came across a wizard that was doing 15-25% less damage than me, and a few times where wizards were out dpsing rogues.
I've been in hardcore end game raiding guilds, raiding 20-30 hours a week at my peak (how do you defeat that which has no life?) usually as a roguish type. (I spent a large share of my raiding career as a kitty druid in wow). So when I find some one that can do comparable damage output I usually tip my hat to them.
I talked to several other 45+ groups doing instances, and none of them said rogues was overpowered.
Its more of a group thing. With the help from other classes, Rogues do more damage.
Most of them actually said DC was the best PvP class followed by CW.
Many of the rogues said without a CW helping you out in PvP, killing DC:s was very hard.
Rogues are easy to pick up and play decently, CW and DC seems to be harder. I met alot of crappy players of those classes, but then i met some that were really good, and it was like night and day trying to kill them in PvP.
Comments
Bottom line, all the whining about Nerfs and Moaning about how OPed the Rogues are is coming Primarily from The IDIOTIC PvP Community. Cryptic needs to stop listening to them. I have nothing against PvP, but it needs to be COMPLETELY SEPARATE from PvE. Completely Different Coding, Period. If they can't do that then the PvP aspect needs to be removed entirely until they can, or it is going to Ruin the PvE side of the Game.
Every single time the PvE community is going to clash with the PvP community until a true balance can be reached. Until then you are only going to get more of the same. I honestly don't know what Cryptic was thinking trying to use the same coding for both aspects, unless they wanted to create this rift in the community. Which would be stupid on their part since all they will do at that point is lose potential customers.
Bottom line is that the solution is quite simple. Separate the coding, give the Rogue back their Damage in PvE and then worry about "Balancing" the damage output and survivability of each class in PvP. TWO SEPARATE FORMS OF CODE. It's not that hard.
......................blinks........................ I can only assume your trying to maybe make a joke of the damage they do still.
Played my rogue half the weekend. testing numbers. exact numbers not ignorant guesswork that 95% of these posters claim.
PvE in 4 dungeon runs( no foundry sure does not count ) results were:
GF who lead and started fights first averaged 65k
CW going to town cause GF was good averaged about 100k could of been higher but was doing his role of a lot of cc
DC did not really count was still was around 45k
GWF this one is sad. they got HAMSTER this beta for sure...55k.. yes below the GF...
rogue who was me.. averaged just under 200k.....
This is with RL friends all very close to same level and all testing and writeing down notes and numbers all weekend.
PvP...... this we did like crazy about 25-28 matches. the rogue is silly here.. dominateing retardedly 99% of every match. it is pathetic to even watch and do as im sure most playing vs rogues will agree and most rogues will scream to deny loving their rapeing.
rogues are DPS. I love the nasty class a lot. but as a tester and adult I have to say the rogue dps is too high in pve. its DOUBLE every class and that's stupid. should not be more then 50-60% max. In pvp the damage is more like 150% more then EVERY other class. which again is plain HAMSTER. dps should NOT do that extreme more. 30-35% more in pvp should be MAX. 1200-2300 hits &^%$# HAMSTER. In 90%+ of every match rogue kills = 15-25... ALL other classes... 6 if they got lucky and or were good players
I know most of you are roguefans and so am I.. I however can admit the truth of the facts from testing. not guessing.
^^^^^This.
With the followers in the game there is no reason for anyone to pick any other class in the game.
yeah nerf em so they do less than the GWF...that will be great....so then no one will play them.....yep thats what they should do? lol hint hint /sarcasm, not like they are needed for traps anyways.
WhatisthisIdon'teven.
Rogues right NOW are doing 3times + what a GWF can do. 3 TIMES!!!!!.. that is a FACT not an opinion.that is in PVE and more so in PvP.
U 50 in blacklake???
Im doing great compared to the other rogues I come across in dungeons and im lvl 50 , no way in hell im 1 shotting any content my level.
sorry but ur trollin and u suck at it.
as for nerf, u high ?? a good one will drop u in 1 v 1 , so hit em in pairs we wont have much chance as we can not take dmg for HAMSTER. knockback destroys us as we dont get to combo up, mages have heaps of it, knock down is not better for us.
need to learn to play to your strengths and not cry about dying to other classes. Every class has a weakness , that's how balance is created.
but are they ?? is that on single target ? is it on multi target ? I know we dont have much for multi target unlike the GWF, classes have a role , single target isn't the strongest for GWF , taking dmg and hitting multiple mobs isn't the tricksters either so if u want to nerf their dmg that cool , give us the same armor as the GWF and make our attacks hit all the mobs in our front ark and u have a deal, u also have a GWF but hey, cant win em all.
With all roles being important in NWN, it makes sense to have the striker do significantly more damage. It's the reason you bring one along. Just like I would bring a CW for control/dps, and a GWF for offtank/aoedps, and a cleric for healing/dps, and a Guard for tank/leader role. Having a striker do huge amounts of DPS does not threaten any other role.
In instances, there is so much potiental clouding factors in the end damage tally. For example, I had double the next person in my group. But, lets consider the specifics:
I was level 25, everyone else was 20 or 21!
Who knows how well they play
Who knows what builds they are trying
Who knows how many breaks they took (I didn't take any!)
And at the end, I didn't say to myself, sure wish I had brought another rogue...
I'm not saying 150% more isn't too much, but be careful when comparing end-instance numbers (unless you have a sufficiently large sample). It also matters what the breakdown is THROUGHOUT the various levels. Maybe around level 40, its different from 20 and 60, for every class. Do you make sweeping statements based on your 4 runs at one of those tiers, without knowledge of the others?
What class would you exclude from your party to take another rogue?
rogue dps isn't "too high" compared to other classes, other classes just pick up in dps much later. a sensible change would be giving more damage to other classes at lower levels leaving high level as is.
3x rogues +2x cleric or 4x rogues and celric thats how will end game dungeons will run if they dont buff up damage of gwf,gf and cw since as is now no big use of them in party they only slow u dawn a lot
Finally, a true beta tester and not someone trying to convince the devs the rogues are fine so they can steam roll through open beta / release. You sir, have seen the same thing my group has seen. The Rogue in Beta 4 is still very powerful, compared to the rest. All I can gather is either the community simply wants a truly OP class with no balance, or they simply do not know how to play a rogue. I want a balanced game where u have fun playing any class, not forced to choose one cause the others "suck" compared to it.
THIS !!!! Hands down.
I would even go so far as to say 3x rogue 1 CW and 1 Cleric
CW is there to help save the cleric when the cleric draws agro
I think this kind of min/maxing DPS speed run attitude is less applicable in NWN than say, GW2, but the point is....
You just said other classes need to be buffed, yet instead you call for a nerf of rogue DPS. The problem does not lay with the rogue. Classes in NWN have roles. If you feel that one of those classes is not living up to their role, then why don't you make suggestions on how to improve them? Also, their primary roles are not DPS. So, are CW's not controlly enough? Are GWF not aoe/off tanky enough? Are GF's not tanky enough? Those are the questions to address to ensure that groups want one of everybody.
Then again, there will always be those people who think every class should be top tier DPS if they want it to be, and for that I blame GW2.
jkaplan92: "I would say rogues do about 15% more damage in the dungeon runs I've done, however I think control wizard is a stronger class overall because we bring so much CC and utiltiy on top of our damage. With that said I think that at level 60 wizards will be even closer if not higher than rogues on the damage charts."
That's a control wizard saying they're fine, if not better, than rogues... A CW, you guys are claiming are not worth taking in a group.
The point is that in groups, there is FAR to much variation to make sweeping statements on class balance based on your experience alone. So, realize your perspective is but one piece of a broader picture. You need data on thousands of dungeons runs, at all level tiers, to make true comparisons.
Not to mention that when you have a CW, a GF, and a Cleric, the rogue can do a LOT more damage. Having a CW lock down a boss or elite mob for a few seconds at a time gives a rogue the ability to dump some cooldowns and get in some serious hurting before having to run away again.
Having a good GF keep the heat off you when you're stealth is off both makes it so much easier to get combat advantage, and your stealth meter regenerates a LOT faster when you aren't getting wailed on. Also, GF's have an encounter that improves party damage mitigation and AP generation, it also restores the block meter, so they should be smashing it whenever possible. I've had boss fights where I smashed my daily 4-6 times because everything lined up magically.
Having a cleric chain mobs or Guardian of faith knock down goes in the same category as CW. Hallowed ground adds to damage and resistance. Divine armor and Astral shield give you extra protection so you can afford to eat a few animated attacks when you have cooldowns burning.
Sure a rogue can do a pile of damage, but they can do way more when they have support from the other classses.
I don't know how many of you have ever played PnP D&D, but that's exactly how a party works. A cleric can try to whack a mob, or cast a buff on himself and do decent damage, OR they can buff the HAMSTER out of the strikers in the party and watch them ruin everything. A group of nothing but barbarians or rogues will do pretty good, but if you toss 1 or 2 support characters in there and things get out of hand in a hurry.
Cryptic's philosophy was to make this game more D&D than classic MMO, and I think they're doing a dam fine job. People need to get over themselves. This is a game that strays from the cookie cutter template of every other MMO, and I hope for the sake of my interest in the game that it remains so.
God yes, thank you for this post. The guys that posted above us are using damage done as the sole comparison between classes. You point out that the ROLE of each classes enhances synergy, allowing everyone to play better
Rogues have high dps .....thats about it , dodge is manual so there is no innate bonus to dodge as they would normally have. they provide little else as a standard to the group other than dps.
GF .....has high armor / AC , best dmg mitigation in the game , high threat moves and taunts , can absorb dmg for the group, does attack multiple mobs. does not have high dps or mobility.
CW.... solid ranged dps lower than rogues but has immense amounts of control, slows , several knock back / ups and stuns. Has low AC but as ranged doesn't need to be right in the mess of it.
lastly the GWF ( I fell I dont have to explain DC's low dmg )...no not the highest dps , not the highest armor. It does however have attacks that hit full front ark , high dmg knock up / back attacks, higher armour than the CW and TR. No your right , not the best at any thing realy but also not the worst at any thing, its a brawler and it does that just great.
The bottom line is they all have pro's and con's, and while i can sympathize that the GWF likely needs a bit of a buff in dmg the other classes , especially the TR do not need to be nerfed to accommodate that.
If PvP is the source of your tears than i first ask you one question, did you really choose a D&D based game purely for its PvP? Really?? If the answer is still yes than I would have to say learn your class, then learn the others, you will never beat what you don't bother to understand. the TR has its weakness AoE knock back / up is a huge one. It not only wastes our stealth but drops it even more because of the dmg reduces duration thing, AoE stun is the same story. Now I'm pretty sure almost every class except TR has one of those. CW can use ray of frost to slow and stun us setting up for a world of hurt from them or any one else, no one else can do that ? really??
Think about what your doing and things wont a such a massive issue, and remember, there are good players and bad ones, just cause u want to be a good one doesn't mean you are, just cause you were in another game doesn't mean you are.
There will be more classes to come and they will have new roles just as they all do in D&D best learn to deal with that.
Druid
Pali
Ranger
Necro
just a few....
This. You're likely a very good wizard playing with less skilled rogues. I was typically doing around 10% more damage than other rogues I partied with, and 30-40% more than an average wizard. Every now and again I came across a wizard that was doing 15-25% less damage than me, and a few times where wizards were out dpsing rogues.
I've been in hardcore end game raiding guilds, raiding 20-30 hours a week at my peak (how do you defeat that which has no life?) usually as a roguish type. (I spent a large share of my raiding career as a kitty druid in wow). So when I find some one that can do comparable damage output I usually tip my hat to them.
Its more of a group thing. With the help from other classes, Rogues do more damage.
Most of them actually said DC was the best PvP class followed by CW.
Many of the rogues said without a CW helping you out in PvP, killing DC:s was very hard.
Rogues are easy to pick up and play decently, CW and DC seems to be harder. I met alot of crappy players of those classes, but then i met some that were really good, and it was like night and day trying to kill them in PvP.