We've isolated some issues with the Trickster Rogue being overpowered in specific cases, and are making changes to certain powers. Thanks for all of your feedback!
Which powers were changed to fix the TR being overpowered in certain cases??
I'm scared too.
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him."
"Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future."
"Education is an admirable thing, but it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught."
"Life is too important to be taken seriously.":)
Bunch of people complaining that Rogues are OP cause they do a lot of damage got them nerfed. What these people fail to understand is that this game isn't WoW. Every class doesn't do the same dps. Rogues and GWF's are the only strikers in game atm. Rogue being single target focused and GWF being aoe focused. Control Wizards and Clerics and GF's aren't SUPPOSED to do as much damage. But since WoW decided to water everything down and make all classes do equal dps everyone assumes that's how all games should be.
We can only hope the nerfs didn't go overboard but I'm not holding my breath. Might be rolling CW after all.
I'm also kinda worried. Nerfs are never fun, but when you don't specify what you're nerfing and the players don't even have access to the game to test the changes it's like being deliberately kept in the dark.
I doubt we will see detailed patch notes on balance adjustments for any class during closed beta. I do not think this is a conscious effort to withhold information. The product is unfinished and taking the time to detail every change along the way is a resource drain.
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thecainMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
All classes are designed to be "Overpowered" if they're played well, mastering a class is supposed to make them look godly. Take for instance when you watch a player solo one of the bosses at high level on Vindictus, never getting hit and racking up crazy damage. Same with DFO (rest it's poor, soon to be shut down soul). That's what's the lifeblood of an Action RPG: Mastering a class.
Trickster Rogues were designed to be high speed, backstabbing, jumping around the battlefield badasses that could take down a single target rapidly. Unfortunately, doing very high burst DPS has people screaming nerf, and what we'll probably see come Day 1 is a DPS that can't DPS and has nothing else to contribute to the party beyond that Burst DPS that they were originally designed with. It's the same thing that caused the knee jerk nerf that sent Devoted Cleric heals plummeting into CrapLand.
Trickster Rogues were designed to be high speed, backstabbing, jumping around the battlefield badasses that could take down a single target rapidly.
The main issue is/was that TRs are/were also good at taking down groups without being in much danger (up until level 35 at least). That's not their role.
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derresshMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited April 2013
People need to simmer down a bit. It could be that they're doing something as simple as addressing the "TR has better CC than CW" debate by removing confusion on enemies during stealth.
I'm a bit worried as well, since my girlfriend may be rolling a TR come OB/release, but I doubt they would nerf their DPS too severely as to put them on the same level as everyone else at their only real job (disarming traps doesn't count since traps are a joke half the time).
I get to see stuff. That's all the detail I'm allowed to say.
But I will say this - I have a relatively freshly-rolled Trickster Rogue (I went with female half-elf) for the purpose of reviewing the tutorial again and to test play one of my Foundry quests ... along the way I've been playing normal content - and also please understand I've played levels 1 through 15 literally dozens of times (I know those maps and the "feel" of them blindfolded now...UGH). Since last week and last night I've taken her to level 11 (I know - higher levels can be VERY different in terms of feel, etc.)
I will only say that based on release notes, Sominator's statement is correct. From where I'm sitting - it feels great. Obviously just one opinion from one player. But hopefully no one will feel a need to start biting their nails.
I do personally feel as though the Rogue is just a tad over powered. It's almost as if that class was worked on more in depth than the others.
I play a CW; and when I saw the DPS Meters at the end of my first boss fight, I was a bit disappointed as well as confused over the fact that I had been out DPS'd by a melee.
Now before you hit me, allow me to justify~
In all the MMO's I have played, I always favored both Assassin classes, as well as Mage-type classes.
I'm very accustomed to putting out large amounts of DPS in the group whether it be from burst DPS/Weaving as a Sin/Theif/Rogue or debuffing/cursing & dropping bombs as a mage.
But from what I recall, the TR was evading a lot more than I did; thus giving me more opportunities to burst the Boss down.
So at the end, I basically expected to be top (if not close) on the DPS chart. Well, nope. There we're 2 other TR's in my group; both we're 1st and 2nd.
Now I'm not going to lie, I was pretty upset.
But then I began to really take the CW into consideration and finally concluded that the CW isn't a typical glass cannon.
We're not meant to spam AoE's and do all these elaborate nuke attacks.
We are meant to CC, and weave our DPS in between; rather than dropping bombs like your typical mage in other games would.
At the end of the day I really grew to love CW even more, because it takes a lot of cunning to really be the most effective in most situations (PvPvE)
It's not a face-roll class that you can just spam nukes and LOL;
You actually need some decent skill in order to really make the best out of the class.
Now I think I actually just went a decent way off track here, so let me just wrap this up.
The simplest ways that I can draw any conclusion that TR are over powered is the fact that they are top DPS in most cases and for the record, le boyfriend plays a trickster and even he agrees that he is OP, haha.
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zaketrinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Rogues are strikers. They are intended to have higher dps. Put aside your previous mmo experiences and internalize that 4e DND classes have specific roles - Defender, Striker, Leader, and Controller.
The consistent dps forum debates demonstrate that this concept is not understood and/or accepted. Sadly, the forum debates will intensify if the scourge warlock is added to the game. The scourge warlock is a striker.
The simplest ways that I can draw any conclusion that TR are over powered is the fact that they are top DPS in most cases and for the record, le boyfriend plays a trickster and even he agrees that he is OP, haha.
The TR should be considerably higher DPS than a CW. The CW is a controller, not a striker. the TR is a striker, not a controller.
There are 4 class types in 4th edition D&D, Controllers (CW), Defenders (GF), Leaders (DC), and Strikers (TR&GWF).
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Controller[/TH]
Controllers focus on affecting multiple targets at once, either damaging or debuffing them, or altering the battlefield's terrain. Some classes, such as Wizards and Invokers, are focused towards ranged combat, while Druids can specialize in ranged or melee combat.
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Defender[/TH]
Defenders focus on blocking attacking enemies and focusing their attacks on themselves. Defender classes are typically focused on melee combat, however some classes such as Swordmages also have ranged combat capabilities.
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Leader[/TH]
Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies. Some Leader classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not.
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Striker[/TH]
Strikers are focused on mobility, dealing heavy damage to single targets and avoiding attacks. Some Striker classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not.
This is not the same as other MMO's as it follows a specific type of ruleset.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
well the rouge hits harder because it has other faults about it. For example the cleric might not hit harder but can do many other things that a rouge cannot. It's all about the roll you want to play, the GWF can do lots of damage like the rouge(even more actually) but the rouge hits faster but that creates two different DPS classes.. so you can't compare the class and say it's OP just because of a damage difference especially when the two classes have completely different rolls to be played.
I am Nurgle, Chaos god of filth and pestilence.. may the corpse carnival parade you with maggots and disease!
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited April 2013
I'm going to guess it'll have something to do with stealth, and skills that the rogue can use to basically keep himself permastealth while he hacks down groups of mobs. Granted, I only played a TR to level 25 in the beta, but it was pretty easy to take down entire groups while staying stealthed, thus avoiding ANY attacks.
But as for the massive, massive single-target damage...that part should stay. My favorite classes were the CW and DC, but I loved watching a TR tear into a boss, while I supported with heals, AOE or control. It really was a breath of fresh air to see classes specialize in different strengths (and weaknesses), especially coming from GW2 where balance was "everyone does the same DPS and that's it". It really did make each class feel important and meaningful in their own way.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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bejita231Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited April 2013
Rogues are doing too much damage, rogue is not the only dps class, they must be nerfed
Their not doing to much damage, the longer you get into the game, the less damage they do since people get better gear and more skills.
Anotehr problem wirh rogues are that they cant catch running targets since their attacks are to slow
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bejita231Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited April 2013
^ uh, what? rogue also gets better gear and does tons more damage as he levels, and the other classes fall even more behind and take 2 minutes to kill a rare mob
Nerfing is not the answer. The Rogue was fine. Yes he was the badness at lower levels, but really if you played them right every character was. Higher levels things get progressively more difficult, as they should be. I'd like to see him have opportunities for traditional Rogue duties like finding and disarming traps, finding secret rooms and loot that only he can find, etc. But as far as battle mechanics he was smooth and a thing of beauty to watch, and his high damage was expected of a high DPS character.
I saw many more issues with the Cleric, which was a nightmare. No point in having a devoted Cleric that doesn't heal and aggros everything in sight. Yes, I know they were "working on it" after BW3, hopefully it is fixed. But still, the philosophy of nerfing heals on the Cleric leaves a bad taste.
The Controller Wizard needs more spells that hit multiple targets in order to perform their Controller role.
The Guardian Fighter was a very mediocre tank and did not make up for it in DPS. If that character is not fixed, I predict few people will play GFs.
Did not play the GWF or have one in my party so cannot comment on it. Not a class I would play either, so...well can't add much there.
^ uh, what? rogue also gets better gear and does tons more damage as he levels, and the other classes fall even more behind and take 2 minutes to kill a rare mob
for the good of the game, rogue must be nerfed
Players get more and better skills to counter rogues. As a rogue you can forrget fighting guardians, they block and mitigate to much. Clerics outheal the damage, then aoe cc rogues before using aoe damage skills that carves most of the health while the rogue cant do anything
Rogue is a striker. Cleric is a leader. Mage is a controller. Fighter is a defender. Compairing dps is an improper way to evaluate the 4 classes. I could just as easily post that a rogue is underpowered at healing while the cleric is overpowered. Each class has a role. Compairing dps, healing, damage mitigation, and crowd control can lead to erronious conclusions.
Enjoy the type of character you want to play. Just be careful when making compairisons.
End of argument.
People want balance where there isn't or shouldn't be. Different classes with different purposes. Get real.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I'm betting the changes will not be in regards to the damage output but in regards to how the TR mitigates damage and threat. Possibly some control issues as well.
People want balance where there isn't or shouldn't be. Different classes with different purposes. Get real.
Disagree completey. I played trickster rogue, control wizard, and GWF all to level 20+ last BWE and trickster rogue is by far the easiest class of the 3. It honestly felt like playing a singleplayer game on easy mode or something, thats how big the difference was between the classes.
If control wizard is a "controller" then its CC needs to compensate for its lack of damage. This is not pen and paper D&D, this is an MMO, there needs to be balance. I'm sorry but to say that an MMO shouldn't be balanced is just wrong, maybe not for you or others in a specific niche, but for an MMO to be succesful it needs to be balanced, end of discussion.
Control wizard does WAY less damage than trickster rogue and its CC is hardly even better. The stun that trickster rogues get felt like a longer duration than anything I had as a CW not to mention that skill does a significant amount of damage on top of the stun. CW's do not have that much control... it does not make up for their lack of damage, and frankly control is not the issue. You can't have a class that has an insane amount of CC in an MMO because it will destroy PvP. Control Wizards need a damage buff... period.
This is the reality. DPS players from other MMOs will choose the class that has the highest output if their are significant differences between each classes output. Trickster rogue is currently WAY far ahead of GWF and CW to the extent that it feels like you're gimping yourself to play the other two classes as a damage oriented player. Again, this is not pen and paper, I don't care if you tell me GWF is supposed to be a "defender"... its not... This is an MMO based on a pen and paper game, but its an MMO first.
GWF MIGHT do higher aoe damage than a rogue, but thats honestly debatable. Rogues single target DPS is so much higher that even with multiple mobs to cleave off of a GWF is still going to be pretty close to the rogue in terms of damage output. In single target its not even close.
The cherry on top of this is rogue has more survivability than either GWF or CW. Stealth is so insanely strong with the right encounter abilities you can almost inifitely loop stealths and just dodge around a bit to recharge in between. Bait and switch is amazing as well. Rogues just have better defensive tools than GWF or CW on top of their already higher dps. The game just really feels almost trivial on my rogue.
You didnt play trickster rogue..you dont even know the skills the rogue have. Just becouse your cw got killed by a rogue doesnt warrent nerfs
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zaketrinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Hmmmm . . .
Table top D&D does not focus on PvP. It will be interesting to see how the game includes PvP. The abilities of the 4 main classes compliment each other. Each one would be at a disadvantage in 1 on 1 PvP. It would be a rock, paper, scissor, lizard, Spock resolution system.
Comments
Which powers were changed to fix the TR being overpowered in certain cases??
I'm scared too.
"Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future."
"Education is an admirable thing, but it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught."
"Life is too important to be taken seriously.":)
We can only hope the nerfs didn't go overboard but I'm not holding my breath. Might be rolling CW after all.
Trickster Rogues were designed to be high speed, backstabbing, jumping around the battlefield badasses that could take down a single target rapidly. Unfortunately, doing very high burst DPS has people screaming nerf, and what we'll probably see come Day 1 is a DPS that can't DPS and has nothing else to contribute to the party beyond that Burst DPS that they were originally designed with. It's the same thing that caused the knee jerk nerf that sent Devoted Cleric heals plummeting into CrapLand.
GG criers.
I'm a bit worried as well, since my girlfriend may be rolling a TR come OB/release, but I doubt they would nerf their DPS too severely as to put them on the same level as everyone else at their only real job (disarming traps doesn't count since traps are a joke half the time).
This. Just this (above quoted portion).
I get to see stuff. That's all the detail I'm allowed to say.
But I will say this - I have a relatively freshly-rolled Trickster Rogue (I went with female half-elf) for the purpose of reviewing the tutorial again and to test play one of my Foundry quests ... along the way I've been playing normal content - and also please understand I've played levels 1 through 15 literally dozens of times (I know those maps and the "feel" of them blindfolded now...UGH). Since last week and last night I've taken her to level 11 (I know - higher levels can be VERY different in terms of feel, etc.)
I will only say that based on release notes, Sominator's statement is correct. From where I'm sitting - it feels great. Obviously just one opinion from one player. But hopefully no one will feel a need to start biting their nails.
I do personally feel as though the Rogue is just a tad over powered. It's almost as if that class was worked on more in depth than the others.
I play a CW; and when I saw the DPS Meters at the end of my first boss fight, I was a bit disappointed as well as confused over the fact that I had been out DPS'd by a melee.
Now before you hit me, allow me to justify~
In all the MMO's I have played, I always favored both Assassin classes, as well as Mage-type classes.
I'm very accustomed to putting out large amounts of DPS in the group whether it be from burst DPS/Weaving as a Sin/Theif/Rogue or debuffing/cursing & dropping bombs as a mage.
But from what I recall, the TR was evading a lot more than I did; thus giving me more opportunities to burst the Boss down.
So at the end, I basically expected to be top (if not close) on the DPS chart. Well, nope. There we're 2 other TR's in my group; both we're 1st and 2nd.
Now I'm not going to lie, I was pretty upset.
But then I began to really take the CW into consideration and finally concluded that the CW isn't a typical glass cannon.
We're not meant to spam AoE's and do all these elaborate nuke attacks.
We are meant to CC, and weave our DPS in between; rather than dropping bombs like your typical mage in other games would.
At the end of the day I really grew to love CW even more, because it takes a lot of cunning to really be the most effective in most situations (PvPvE)
It's not a face-roll class that you can just spam nukes and LOL;
You actually need some decent skill in order to really make the best out of the class.
Now I think I actually just went a decent way off track here, so let me just wrap this up.
The simplest ways that I can draw any conclusion that TR are over powered is the fact that they are top DPS in most cases and for the record, le boyfriend plays a trickster and even he agrees that he is OP, haha.
The consistent dps forum debates demonstrate that this concept is not understood and/or accepted. Sadly, the forum debates will intensify if the scourge warlock is added to the game. The scourge warlock is a striker.
Buff GWF.
That is all.
The TR should be considerably higher DPS than a CW. The CW is a controller, not a striker. the TR is a striker, not a controller.
There are 4 class types in 4th edition D&D, Controllers (CW), Defenders (GF), Leaders (DC), and Strikers (TR&GWF).
Check out this chart (taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_class_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#4th_edition):
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Controller[/TH]
Controllers focus on affecting multiple targets at once, either damaging or debuffing them, or altering the battlefield's terrain. Some classes, such as Wizards and Invokers, are focused towards ranged combat, while Druids can specialize in ranged or melee combat.
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Defender[/TH]
Defenders focus on blocking attacking enemies and focusing their attacks on themselves. Defender classes are typically focused on melee combat, however some classes such as Swordmages also have ranged combat capabilities.
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Leader[/TH]
Leaders are focused on buffing and healing allies. Some Leader classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not.
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Striker[/TH]
Strikers are focused on mobility, dealing heavy damage to single targets and avoiding attacks. Some Striker classes and builds are focused towards either melee or ranged combat, however the role as a whole is not.
This is not the same as other MMO's as it follows a specific type of ruleset.
But as for the massive, massive single-target damage...that part should stay. My favorite classes were the CW and DC, but I loved watching a TR tear into a boss, while I supported with heals, AOE or control. It really was a breath of fresh air to see classes specialize in different strengths (and weaknesses), especially coming from GW2 where balance was "everyone does the same DPS and that's it". It really did make each class feel important and meaningful in their own way.
Anotehr problem wirh rogues are that they cant catch running targets since their attacks are to slow
for the good of the game, rogue must be nerfed
A lot of probl, huh?
Well, I didn't really encounter any probl in my time with the rogue - what species of probl did you encounter? Some of them can be awfully nasty.
I saw many more issues with the Cleric, which was a nightmare. No point in having a devoted Cleric that doesn't heal and aggros everything in sight. Yes, I know they were "working on it" after BW3, hopefully it is fixed. But still, the philosophy of nerfing heals on the Cleric leaves a bad taste.
The Controller Wizard needs more spells that hit multiple targets in order to perform their Controller role.
The Guardian Fighter was a very mediocre tank and did not make up for it in DPS. If that character is not fixed, I predict few people will play GFs.
Did not play the GWF or have one in my party so cannot comment on it. Not a class I would play either, so...well can't add much there.
Players get more and better skills to counter rogues. As a rogue you can forrget fighting guardians, they block and mitigate to much. Clerics outheal the damage, then aoe cc rogues before using aoe damage skills that carves most of the health while the rogue cant do anything
Well aren't you awesome.
End of argument.
People want balance where there isn't or shouldn't be. Different classes with different purposes. Get real.
Disagree completey. I played trickster rogue, control wizard, and GWF all to level 20+ last BWE and trickster rogue is by far the easiest class of the 3. It honestly felt like playing a singleplayer game on easy mode or something, thats how big the difference was between the classes.
If control wizard is a "controller" then its CC needs to compensate for its lack of damage. This is not pen and paper D&D, this is an MMO, there needs to be balance. I'm sorry but to say that an MMO shouldn't be balanced is just wrong, maybe not for you or others in a specific niche, but for an MMO to be succesful it needs to be balanced, end of discussion.
Control wizard does WAY less damage than trickster rogue and its CC is hardly even better. The stun that trickster rogues get felt like a longer duration than anything I had as a CW not to mention that skill does a significant amount of damage on top of the stun. CW's do not have that much control... it does not make up for their lack of damage, and frankly control is not the issue. You can't have a class that has an insane amount of CC in an MMO because it will destroy PvP. Control Wizards need a damage buff... period.
This is the reality. DPS players from other MMOs will choose the class that has the highest output if their are significant differences between each classes output. Trickster rogue is currently WAY far ahead of GWF and CW to the extent that it feels like you're gimping yourself to play the other two classes as a damage oriented player. Again, this is not pen and paper, I don't care if you tell me GWF is supposed to be a "defender"... its not... This is an MMO based on a pen and paper game, but its an MMO first.
GWF MIGHT do higher aoe damage than a rogue, but thats honestly debatable. Rogues single target DPS is so much higher that even with multiple mobs to cleave off of a GWF is still going to be pretty close to the rogue in terms of damage output. In single target its not even close.
The cherry on top of this is rogue has more survivability than either GWF or CW. Stealth is so insanely strong with the right encounter abilities you can almost inifitely loop stealths and just dodge around a bit to recharge in between. Bait and switch is amazing as well. Rogues just have better defensive tools than GWF or CW on top of their already higher dps. The game just really feels almost trivial on my rogue.
Table top D&D does not focus on PvP. It will be interesting to see how the game includes PvP. The abilities of the 4 main classes compliment each other. Each one would be at a disadvantage in 1 on 1 PvP. It would be a rock, paper, scissor, lizard, Spock resolution system.