What a well done class. did you people complaining even play it? and that means 15+ at the least. I was topping dps charts in EVERY event. every instance run. The GWF is not slow. Are you one of those ignorant noobs that thinks a 6foot blade should swing like a dagger. lol. The GWF has great single target attack not just aoe. did you even read or use the skill you get at like 15th i thing that hits single targets harder and is 3 times as fast a attack? You complaining fools did NOT test.
I'm going to assume you're referring to people complaining about pve. The GWF does his best damage when there are multiple things to hit with his wide swings. Sure Strike does help the single target dps, but comes nowhere close to competing with rogue damage (the other melee dpser). I read and tested every ability up to level 27 so yes I know exactly what the class could and could not do both in pve and pvp. There are some things that could be tweaked to help out in pve, but where they really are lackluster is pvp.
I only got the GWF up to 27 so I can't comment on levels higher than that, but I can say that really, the GWF is NOT a good pvp class. It doesn't have much in the way of it's own for CCing others. It can become CC immune but only for a very short amount of time, and it is quite slow to build up in a pvp environment. The damage GWF puts out is terrible for pvp, because as someone mentioned, they only really do a lot of damage when hitting multiple targets at the same time, not because any single hits they do are big. About the only really good strength they have for pvp is some decent mobility but this of course is tempered by the numerous amounts of knockbacks, roots, stuns, etc.
Right now I would put the GWF as the worst of all the classes in pvp. Clerics and mages have ranged attacks so at least they can get some hits in from distance, plus they have some roots/knockbacks to help keep that distance. Rogues have very high damage when they are on the target plus their disarms/silences and stealth to get in close or sneak away. Guardian Fighters have durability so they can take the heavy amount of punishment required to get in and do melee damage to the above classes. GWF can charge in, but doing so leads to either them getting ganged up on and destroyed quickly, or in a good case scenario they can do a little bit of damage before being knocked away/killed. They just don't have the single target damage necessary to really threaten the other classes, nor the tools to survive long enough to inflict it.
No class is going to perform well charging into a group of enemy players swinging away. That includes the GF. Oddly enough though the GWF is the best at simply because they have the mobility to get out better than other classes and by taking that damage they have enough determination to activate unstoppable.
One thing to keep in mind is you have to build some defensive stats. That is what GWF are know for, having good defense and offense. In my case I stacked as much defense and HP as possible. This allowed me to survive to get my determination up.
They are also the best counter to control wizards since they seem to be the only class with enough mobility to stay on them.
Regardless, they are not the clear worst class. I think the balance is fairly good currently. Control wizard is probably the top class, but by a very small margin.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No class is going to perform well charging into a group of enemy players swinging away. That includes the GF. Oddly enough though the GWF is the best at simply because they have the mobility to get out better than other classes and by taking that damage they have enough determination to activate unstoppable.
One thing to keep in mind is you have to build some defensive stats. That is what GWF are know for, having good defense and offense. In my case I stacked as much defense and HP as possible. This allowed me to survive to get my determination up.
They are also the best counter to control wizards since they seem to be the only class with enough mobility to stay on them.
Regardless, they are not the clear worst class. I think the balance is fairly good currently. Control wizard is probably the top class, but by a very small margin.
I actually had good gear for both dps and defense and tried both sets out and had a extra defense as a human. I am not suggesting that charging into a group alone is a good idea, just stating that while other classes can attack from range or have other methods to get into melee while surviving, GWF's best bet is to close the distance as fast as possible.
I would say the best counter to control wizards are rogues. Between their damage, their disarm/silences, and sneak..they do better.
You say regardless they are not the worst class...so let me ask you, which class do you feel is the worst class? Obviously some class would need to be, and I'd like to hear which one you feel is and why? (Keep in mind I am talking purely pvp here).
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I actually had good gear for both dps and defense and tried both sets out and had a extra defense as a human. I am not suggesting that charging into a group alone is a good idea, just stating that while other classes can attack from range or have other methods to get into melee while surviving, GWF's best bet is to close the distance as fast as possible.
I would say the best counter to control wizards are rogues. Between their damage, their disarm/silences, and sneak..they do better.
You say regardless they are not the worst class...so let me ask you, which class do you feel is the worst class? Obviously some class would need to be, and I'd like to hear which one you feel is and why? (Keep in mind I am talking purely pvp here).
I don't think any class is way behind. If I had to choose, I'd say the GF. For an action game, they lack mobility. They do have their shield but I simply ran through them and hit them. There were very few GFs in pvp, so they may be able to perform better from what I have seen.
I'd tier the classes as follows: Tier one is CW and TR. Tier two is GWF and Cleric. Tier three is GF. All classes are fairly close though.
What I found disconcerting was that the first right-mouse attack (Reaping Strike?) is somehow linked to your stamina. I often found myself spending stamina to sprint to avoid AOEs and to quickly position myself behind a boss only to find out I didn't have enough stamina remaining to activate the right-mouse charge-up attack.
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epixcomixMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
I don't think any class is way behind. If I had to choose, I'd say the GF. For an action game, they lack mobility. They do have their shield but I simply ran through them and hit them. There were very few GFs in pvp, so they may be able to perform better from what I have seen.
I'd tier the classes as follows: Tier one is CW and TR. Tier two is GWF and Cleric. Tier three is GF. All classes are fairly close though.
I think one of the things you aren't factoring in with the Guardian is that their increased durability may not make them massive damage threats (though they can harass casters just fine) but it allows them to stay near the flags longer than anyone else, and ultimately, control of the flags is what wins the games.
Now if you played against Guardians that were trying to act more as simple dps, then yeah I can see why they would be relegated to the bottom, but if you played against ones that actually utilized their roles, it's a lot different. I played probably 40-50 matches in pvp so I got to see a number of classes and groups and based my observations on the average not the worst or best players I encountered.
Keep in mind I am not saying the class is unplayable, I am just saying that I believe that with all things being equal, they have the worst tools to fulfill their role in a pvp scenario.
My experience with the GWF led me to not want to play the game any more after the last beta weekend. However, I discovered the thief and couldn't be happier. Made it to level 37 this weekend, hah.
GWF blows chunks because of how slow it is. All they need to do is give it the ability to move while swinging and all will be forgiven.
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ace0darknessMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 15Arc User
I just played Guardian and i saw that i need 2x less potions in dungeons than GWF i have similar dps, longer stamina and better aoe's ^^
1 Hour 20 Minutes my Great-Weapon Fighter got to lvl 10. used 1 potion, died zero times.
I don't see your flaw?
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Only got to level 7 or 8 with the GWF but had no mobility problems at all. We have 1 encounter power that we can use to charge or evade and sprint to get out of harms way.
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
edited March 2013
It's sort of sad that people make a judgement call on whether a class is good or not at level 10. Or even level 15. You're barely coming into your own at these levels. Hit level 20+, get some powers and then come back.
That's like (in WOW terms) taking a shadow priest and before hitting level 40, saying that shadow priest sux for the DPS. Of course it does, you're missing the point where it matures.
I'm not saying the playstyle is great by any means; but I took the class up quite a bit further than the rest of the people making calls one way or the other. 7/8 or even 10 is barely out of the tutorial.
If you die before level 10 with any class in NWO, you're just bad at MMOs, period. I'm no "hardcore" player. I'm not even decent at PvP. But I didn't die on any class prior to level 12-14 unless I was getting a beer and got mobbed in the sewers while afk. Not trying to be disrespectful here, but... even to my old, enfeebled brain, which can barely handle the concept of action combat, still peer myopically at my keyboard looking for the "R" key, I can't imagine a situation where you'd die at level 10 or below in this game.
Well, you can jump off the edge at the Moonstone Mask, I suppose.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's sort of sad that people make a judgement call on whether a class is good or not at level 10. Or even level 15. You're barely coming into your own at these levels. Hit level 20+, get some powers and then come back.
That's like (in WOW terms) taking a shadow priest and before hitting level 40, saying that shadow priest sux for the DPS. Of course it does, you're missing the point where it matures.
I'm not saying the playstyle is great by any means; but I took the class up quite a bit further than the rest of the people making calls one way or the other. 7/8 or even 10 is barely out of the tutorial.
If you die before level 10 with any class in NWO, you're just bad at MMOs, period. I'm no "hardcore" player. I'm not even decent at PvP. But I didn't die on any class prior to level 12-14 unless I was getting a beer and got mobbed in the sewers while afk. Not trying to be disrespectful here, but... even to my old, enfeebled brain, which can barely handle the concept of action combat, still peer myopically at my keyboard looking for the "R" key, I can't imagine a situation where you'd die at level 10 or below in this game.
Well, you can jump off the edge at the Moonstone Mask, I suppose.
Yeah and then there is me and I am PvP gamer from FPS games like Unreal Tournament 2004. I played devouted Cleric. I was so eager about PvP so I barely got to level 10 during this my first Beta Event that I could attend.
I played hours PvP and really won won won so those who say it is not skill are wrong. However in my laziness about PvE I did not check that there was a Vendor that sold companions for gold. So I entered Orcs district alone without any companions...
Beginning goes fine I kill mobs... then I am entering deeper... but suddenly I get attention from one mob as another mob respawns besides me... I begin fighting them and then an Orc patrol appears and joins! So I end solo fighting 3 mobs! Of course I died and please stop saying dying before level 12 is impossible. I get my companion next time I play but I still have my doubts if I can defeat 3 big orc mobs at the same time without other players. I actually got invited to a Guild also on Sunday... so yeah I can be social in Dungeons and do group content.
I played a rogue, and duo'ed with a friend who leveled a GWF. Pre- level 20 he was underwhelmed with the GWF, but as soon as he got high enough level to use that club out of cloak tower, I was embarrased at how much more damage he was doing than me.
It was like it just clicked, and the GWF was night and day different. I was constantly chasing after him, getting to a mob just in time to finish it off. He drank probably 250 potions though after he figured out that you get a HAMSTER load of determination points from getting hit. The defense=power synergy and getting hit = determination generation mechanic seems to me like the class was designed to be a face tank.
Once I hit lvl 26 and got my seal of the lion vendor daggers, and tweaked my power configuration, we were neck in neck again. It turned into a DPS race, and entire packs of monsters would literally just explode into loot piles as soon as we made contact with them. We were giggling like little girls every time a dead critter got flung into a roof or halfway up a cliff.
Roll the Cleric Companion, always make sure you have pots handy, and indeed, face tank damage as it builds Determination much faster. At 18 with the club from CT, I could drop 200k+ dmg for the dungeon easily. The damage reduction from full Determination is awesome. It would be nice to see kills and Roar while in Unstopppable, return Determination though. Just a thought..
It's sort of sad that people make a judgement call on whether a class is good or not at level 10. Or even level 15. You're barely coming into your own at these levels. Hit level 20+, get some powers and then come back.
I don't want to waste the hours of my life on a combat style I don't enjoy. Standing in place slowly swinging a sword means simply mashing the same button over and over again. there's no skill at all, at low levels. no thanks.
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epixcomixMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
I don't want to waste the hours of my life on a combat style I don't enjoy. Standing in place slowly swinging a sword means simply mashing the same button over and over again. there's no skill at all, at low levels. no thanks.
I believe his point was that people who haven't put in enough time to even get more than the first starting abilities shouldn't be commenting on the deficiencies or merits of the class. If you don't like the game play of it and that's why you didn't bother to level it higher that's fine. Even suggesting what in your experience with the class made the gameplay not enjoyable would be valid feedback. But coming in and saying the class is terrible or even that it's great, without having any real time involved is pretty pointless since you have no grounds for your comments.
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echolonianMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
Well this class sucks in pvp when have to be in front, die first and most time. No stun/frezze skills just stay and wait for die. Seriously this class cant be slower than actually is. Even his attacks aren't powerfull... this is a great weapon fighter for god's sake not a turtle...
I dont know what u did wrong with the class. I got to level 40 and i even outdamaged a lvl 42 control wizard in my party. as far as pvp goes, i was placed top of the row several times. after lvl 30 u get a lot of cc, like 3 knock downs. combined with the high mobility, range and tankiness of the class u can be a real beast both in pvp and pve. loved the class so far as it also needs a lot of skill to master.
Complaints of a class being ineffective at its job, even early game, are not unwarranted. It does have the effect of putting players off the role and making them switch, and tweaking classes to scale more evenly isnt unreasonable. I felt like my cleric did a bit more DPS than my GWF and was much better in PvP. Upon inspecting people it really seemed like Clerics have as much hp as Rogues though, sometimes rogues had more of same level, sometimes less. But i had more con by far. A lot of things scale really poorly at first it seems, sometimes you put on a piece of gear that makes 0% difference at all.
On the other hand, classes that seem to be REALLY strong early game, dont exactly deserve to suffer late game either. People should know what they are getting into when they pick a class.
I ran the dungeon for the 16 blue mace. Then, used both the Leap and Double rush abilities with the Regen strike for big hits whenever available.
Using the lvl 15 Sure strike at-will for a moving, faster single focus ability allowed me to pick someone and lay in. With that setup, I was unpeelable.
Never use the charge swing, that is not a PvP ability. I use the cleave combo as my secondary at-will for Unstoppable aoe moments. But that is a secondary.
I ranked highest in kills by a good bit in every game I played. If you didn't enjoy this class, give it a bit more time and you'll see what it can do.
I believe his point was that people who haven't put in enough time to even get more than the first starting abilities shouldn't be commenting on the deficiencies or merits of the class. If you don't like the game play of it and that's why you didn't bother to level it higher that's fine. Even suggesting what in your experience with the class made the gameplay not enjoyable would be valid feedback. But coming in and saying the class is terrible or even that it's great, without having any real time involved is pretty pointless since you have no grounds for your comments.
My point is that if you don't enjoy the gameplay because of bad initial mechanics, then it's completely relevant to comment on those mechanics and try to get them changed. For me, then, the class is a bad class and I can't understand why anyone would want to play it. A class could be awesome at max level and horrible early on (Captain on LotRO being a key example), but typically the one follows the other, so if you spend 10 minutes playing and it makes you want to walk away from the game, then it's going to be bad later on as well. Initial mechanics *should* be a harbinger of later mechanics, so you know what you're getting into.
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sinoraiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 8Arc User
Well this class sucks in pvp when have to be in front, die first and most time. No stun/frezze skills just stay and wait for die. Seriously this class cant be slower than actually is. Even his attacks aren't powerfull... this is a great weapon fighter for god's sake not a turtle...
i think you have a problem with Great Weapon Fighters regarding PVP... is that true sir ??
i've said this argument in game a GWF does not in fact kill a group of mobs faster than a rogue, the DMG from the single target attacks and stealth basically i can kill a group of mobs and be moved on to and have half of a second group killed before the GWF is done with the first group. The GWF needs more dmg or faster attacks.
Or pull both groups at one and kill them in one go? & what of the GF? Shouldn't the GF also get a buff?
('-')
Well this class sucks in pvp when have to be in front, die first and most time. No stun/frezze skills just stay and wait for die. Seriously this class cant be slower than actually is. Even his attacks aren't powerfull... this is a great weapon fighter for god's sake not a turtle...
PvP, you be doing it wrong. Don't forget, GWF has the CC immunity & a variety of movement options.
GWF like a lot of the Classes in NWO is not easy mode. Guardian and rogue over all you can buttonmash and still do relitivly well in teams and solo. Its not my favorate and DOES need tweeking but its managable if you play it well.
The GWF 2nd at will power is probibly its worst enemy to start with as it takes a relitivly mobile aoe character and roots him to a spot for 5-10 seconds. and doesnt add much more DPS than just rappidly hitting the other at will and nothing else.maybe if this power was encounter since encounters happen less often you can justify a charge up. uped its damage a bit maybe added more cowbell ...er i mean stun.
the Rush/charge forward power is another issue its nice and adds mobility and will run you out of those red circles but while the rogue jumps you backwards or puts you behind the boss this power leaves you facing the wrong way. I made a bind
/bind <key> AdjustCamYaw 180
and stuck it next to the key i had for the charge. so every time i charged past the boss i turned 180 ready for my next swing. this really helped my dps. and reduced the damage from red circles a good deal. often my boss killing tecnique was rush turn hithit hit rush turn hit hit hit since i turned much faster than the boss and just rushed every time i saw a red circle.
Next gripe is the "heal" this power would be great if it was boiled into an at will power. swing swing swing heal swing sing swing heal. every little bit counts and all that. but as an encounter it sufferes from to little to late it only attacks one foe unlike every other power he has. maybe make it so the more people hit with it the more healing received that way when you hit the 20 or so mobs chasing the cleric. you get healed.
My end conclution is this is the cleric babysitter class. you dont want him to near the tank due to KB of some of his powers but if you have him camped out near the cleric and CW or rushing between the two keeping mobs off them while they focus on keeping the guardian healed and boss held. this guy is just made for kiting a ton of trash mobs since otherwize they will just respawn. since he annoys a lot of people at once and has the capability to keep massive numbers of trash ...interested.
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
GWF like a lot of the Classes in NWO is not easy mode. Guardian and rogue over all you can buttonmash and still do relitivly well in teams and solo. Its not my favorate and DOES need tweeking but its managable if you play it well.
The GWF 2nd at will power is probibly its worst enemy to start with as it takes a relitivly mobile aoe character and roots him to a spot for 5-10 seconds. and doesnt add much more DPS than just rappidly hitting the other at will and nothing else.maybe if this power was encounter since encounters happen less often you can justify a charge up. uped its damage a bit maybe added more cowbell ...er i mean stun.
Yeah, the charge up is insane for an action game. I'm going to sit there and charge up an ability when I need to move often. I can take the damage and risk being interrupted to get very minimal dps gain over spamming another aoe skill. No thanks jeff.
I tried both fighter classes and the are both terrible.
GF can't do any damage, so in pvp that just means you live a few seconds longer but still die. In pve your taunts suck and you still take a bunch of damage, less then other classes but still enough so that the class is not any fun considering the fact that you dish out so little damage yourself.
GWF a little more fun to play you can do damage not as much as a rogue but good damage to multiple mobs. But you take a lot of damage too.
I tried a rogue and fell in love with the class, great damage, squishy as **** but who cares i kill things fast. My hit points are always like 25 % but I rarely die.
I didn't have much time to play this weekend, but did manage to roll up a GWF and get him leveled to 15 or so, but found the combat clumbsy early on in his development. I don't know if that was a learning curve issue on my part, but I didn't have that problem with any of the other classes. Their combat mechanics felt smoother and more fluid.
The DPS wasn't as great as I was thinking it should have been, but as others have pointed out, the class seems to build into its DPS later. This could be a problem early on as players might stop playing the class early on because of the mechanics.
During BW3, I leved a GWF to level 32 or so. Generally, I concur with a lot of people here who felt like the GWF has some issues at lower levels, but I found they really come into their own somewhere in the 20s.
To hit upon some specific points from early levels in particular:
1) Reaping Strike (the second At-will), which requires you to charge up while remaining rooted, is completely useless. Given the amount of movement required, the player is frequently forced to waste half-charged attacks, which do NOTHING until a certain threshold is passed. Furthermore, standing still incurs a decent amount of damage just from basic attacks, which is a serious liability at lower levels when the GWF has no self-heals or survivability mechanics other than potions. The bonus to Determination generation is cold comfort for levels you're stuck with this At-Will before the Tab Mechanic is unlocked at level 10. This one needs to be seriously rethought; at the very least, Sure Strike should be available sooner, saving Reaping for later when it might interact better with other mechanics. Which brings us to..
2) The self-heal on Restoring Strike needs to buffed. Significantly. It seems to heal for about 10% (maybe 20% at higher levels?) of damage. That amounts to about 200 HP at level 30, on an heath pool of over 8000. Or in other words, a single normal attack's worth of damage from a normal mob. That's beyond insignificant. Now, the funny thing is, I actually kept Restoring Strike on my bar all weekend despite this glaring failure; it hits like a truck on single targets, which you need sometimes. And once I got my Cleric companion, my need for self-heals was mitigated a bit (setting aside the huge issues with cleric pet aggro..). But at early levels, this feels a bit limp.
3) Determination generation feels really slow, particularly given that it decays out of combat. My only other point of contrast is the Cleric, but Divine Power filled up very quickly. Determination is built largely by taking damage (killing enemies, yes, but then they're dead, and the bar decays ooc, so...), which feels wrong for a class that's not supposed to tank. This is particularly egregious in dungeons, where DPS shouldn't be taking damage, generally. Furthermore, the Unstoppable buff doesn't last long enough to feel worth the time commitment to building up that meter. Now, at later levels, I did subjectively feel like I was using Determination more, but something could use to be tweaked at lower levels.
Overall, I thought the class actually really blossomed with some time investment, and things got a lot smoother once I endured the first 15-20 levels. I thought my DPS was fine; I never felt solo fights dragged, and in skirmishes and dungeons, my numbers were solid versus anyone who wasn't a rogue. But those early experiences need to be tightened up or people won't stick with the class.
Okay I have to disagree with alot of the negatives about the Great Weapon Fighter. I am sure he probably does need a tweak or two but who doesnt when first aired. I got to level 30 with him and I was topping the PVP list when I did PVP. First off Str Con and Dex in that order were my stats and I had a pretty high Con close to my Str. I was playing as an Orc.
Basically you need to learn what stats to build and then stick with them. Know the class Iam pretty sure alot of people didnt build him right. My healing strike was healing me for a hell of alot more then 15 hp but Iam guessing you didnt have alot of power. As far as being slow and clunky? Orc gets a boost with speed......I used my skills wisely enough to gain momentum there are alot of jumping to or charge through skills that will get you from point a to b fast. I had no problem catching rouges and killing them. Pretty much thats who I targeted Rogues and Wizards and I did well. Wizard and his freeze would hurt me but I would get there in time and once I was in his face he couldnt outlast me.
Comments
I'm going to assume you're referring to people complaining about pve. The GWF does his best damage when there are multiple things to hit with his wide swings. Sure Strike does help the single target dps, but comes nowhere close to competing with rogue damage (the other melee dpser). I read and tested every ability up to level 27 so yes I know exactly what the class could and could not do both in pve and pvp. There are some things that could be tweaked to help out in pve, but where they really are lackluster is pvp.
Don't forget the Sword Spin from Zelda. That right there makes the entire class worth it.
No class is going to perform well charging into a group of enemy players swinging away. That includes the GF. Oddly enough though the GWF is the best at simply because they have the mobility to get out better than other classes and by taking that damage they have enough determination to activate unstoppable.
One thing to keep in mind is you have to build some defensive stats. That is what GWF are know for, having good defense and offense. In my case I stacked as much defense and HP as possible. This allowed me to survive to get my determination up.
They are also the best counter to control wizards since they seem to be the only class with enough mobility to stay on them.
Regardless, they are not the clear worst class. I think the balance is fairly good currently. Control wizard is probably the top class, but by a very small margin.
Speaking of Zelda, why was he always trying to save the princess?
I actually had good gear for both dps and defense and tried both sets out and had a extra defense as a human. I am not suggesting that charging into a group alone is a good idea, just stating that while other classes can attack from range or have other methods to get into melee while surviving, GWF's best bet is to close the distance as fast as possible.
I would say the best counter to control wizards are rogues. Between their damage, their disarm/silences, and sneak..they do better.
You say regardless they are not the worst class...so let me ask you, which class do you feel is the worst class? Obviously some class would need to be, and I'd like to hear which one you feel is and why? (Keep in mind I am talking purely pvp here).
I don't think any class is way behind. If I had to choose, I'd say the GF. For an action game, they lack mobility. They do have their shield but I simply ran through them and hit them. There were very few GFs in pvp, so they may be able to perform better from what I have seen.
I'd tier the classes as follows: Tier one is CW and TR. Tier two is GWF and Cleric. Tier three is GF. All classes are fairly close though.
I think one of the things you aren't factoring in with the Guardian is that their increased durability may not make them massive damage threats (though they can harass casters just fine) but it allows them to stay near the flags longer than anyone else, and ultimately, control of the flags is what wins the games.
Now if you played against Guardians that were trying to act more as simple dps, then yeah I can see why they would be relegated to the bottom, but if you played against ones that actually utilized their roles, it's a lot different. I played probably 40-50 matches in pvp so I got to see a number of classes and groups and based my observations on the average not the worst or best players I encountered.
Keep in mind I am not saying the class is unplayable, I am just saying that I believe that with all things being equal, they have the worst tools to fulfill their role in a pvp scenario.
GWF blows chunks because of how slow it is. All they need to do is give it the ability to move while swinging and all will be forgiven.
1 Hour 20 Minutes my Great-Weapon Fighter got to lvl 10. used 1 potion, died zero times.
I don't see your flaw?
That's like (in WOW terms) taking a shadow priest and before hitting level 40, saying that shadow priest sux for the DPS. Of course it does, you're missing the point where it matures.
I'm not saying the playstyle is great by any means; but I took the class up quite a bit further than the rest of the people making calls one way or the other. 7/8 or even 10 is barely out of the tutorial.
If you die before level 10 with any class in NWO, you're just bad at MMOs, period. I'm no "hardcore" player. I'm not even decent at PvP. But I didn't die on any class prior to level 12-14 unless I was getting a beer and got mobbed in the sewers while afk. Not trying to be disrespectful here, but... even to my old, enfeebled brain, which can barely handle the concept of action combat, still peer myopically at my keyboard looking for the "R" key, I can't imagine a situation where you'd die at level 10 or below in this game.
Well, you can jump off the edge at the Moonstone Mask, I suppose.
I played hours PvP and really won won won so those who say it is not skill are wrong. However in my laziness about PvE I did not check that there was a Vendor that sold companions for gold. So I entered Orcs district alone without any companions...
Beginning goes fine I kill mobs... then I am entering deeper... but suddenly I get attention from one mob as another mob respawns besides me... I begin fighting them and then an Orc patrol appears and joins! So I end solo fighting 3 mobs! Of course I died and please stop saying dying before level 12 is impossible. I get my companion next time I play but I still have my doubts if I can defeat 3 big orc mobs at the same time without other players. I actually got invited to a Guild also on Sunday... so yeah I can be social in Dungeons and do group content.
It was like it just clicked, and the GWF was night and day different. I was constantly chasing after him, getting to a mob just in time to finish it off. He drank probably 250 potions though after he figured out that you get a HAMSTER load of determination points from getting hit. The defense=power synergy and getting hit = determination generation mechanic seems to me like the class was designed to be a face tank.
Once I hit lvl 26 and got my seal of the lion vendor daggers, and tweaked my power configuration, we were neck in neck again. It turned into a DPS race, and entire packs of monsters would literally just explode into loot piles as soon as we made contact with them. We were giggling like little girls every time a dead critter got flung into a roof or halfway up a cliff.
I don't want to waste the hours of my life on a combat style I don't enjoy. Standing in place slowly swinging a sword means simply mashing the same button over and over again. there's no skill at all, at low levels. no thanks.
I believe his point was that people who haven't put in enough time to even get more than the first starting abilities shouldn't be commenting on the deficiencies or merits of the class. If you don't like the game play of it and that's why you didn't bother to level it higher that's fine. Even suggesting what in your experience with the class made the gameplay not enjoyable would be valid feedback. But coming in and saying the class is terrible or even that it's great, without having any real time involved is pretty pointless since you have no grounds for your comments.
I dont know what u did wrong with the class. I got to level 40 and i even outdamaged a lvl 42 control wizard in my party. as far as pvp goes, i was placed top of the row several times. after lvl 30 u get a lot of cc, like 3 knock downs. combined with the high mobility, range and tankiness of the class u can be a real beast both in pvp and pve. loved the class so far as it also needs a lot of skill to master.
On the other hand, classes that seem to be REALLY strong early game, dont exactly deserve to suffer late game either. People should know what they are getting into when they pick a class.
I ran the dungeon for the 16 blue mace. Then, used both the Leap and Double rush abilities with the Regen strike for big hits whenever available.
Using the lvl 15 Sure strike at-will for a moving, faster single focus ability allowed me to pick someone and lay in. With that setup, I was unpeelable.
Never use the charge swing, that is not a PvP ability. I use the cleave combo as my secondary at-will for Unstoppable aoe moments. But that is a secondary.
I ranked highest in kills by a good bit in every game I played. If you didn't enjoy this class, give it a bit more time and you'll see what it can do.
My point is that if you don't enjoy the gameplay because of bad initial mechanics, then it's completely relevant to comment on those mechanics and try to get them changed. For me, then, the class is a bad class and I can't understand why anyone would want to play it. A class could be awesome at max level and horrible early on (Captain on LotRO being a key example), but typically the one follows the other, so if you spend 10 minutes playing and it makes you want to walk away from the game, then it's going to be bad later on as well. Initial mechanics *should* be a harbinger of later mechanics, so you know what you're getting into.
i think you have a problem with Great Weapon Fighters regarding PVP... is that true sir ??
Or pull both groups at one and kill them in one go? & what of the GF? Shouldn't the GF also get a buff?
('-')
PvP, you be doing it wrong. Don't forget, GWF has the CC immunity & a variety of movement options.
The GWF 2nd at will power is probibly its worst enemy to start with as it takes a relitivly mobile aoe character and roots him to a spot for 5-10 seconds. and doesnt add much more DPS than just rappidly hitting the other at will and nothing else.maybe if this power was encounter since encounters happen less often you can justify a charge up. uped its damage a bit maybe added more cowbell ...er i mean stun.
the Rush/charge forward power is another issue its nice and adds mobility and will run you out of those red circles but while the rogue jumps you backwards or puts you behind the boss this power leaves you facing the wrong way. I made a bind
/bind <key> AdjustCamYaw 180
and stuck it next to the key i had for the charge. so every time i charged past the boss i turned 180 ready for my next swing. this really helped my dps. and reduced the damage from red circles a good deal. often my boss killing tecnique was rush turn hithit hit rush turn hit hit hit since i turned much faster than the boss and just rushed every time i saw a red circle.
Next gripe is the "heal" this power would be great if it was boiled into an at will power. swing swing swing heal swing sing swing heal. every little bit counts and all that. but as an encounter it sufferes from to little to late it only attacks one foe unlike every other power he has. maybe make it so the more people hit with it the more healing received that way when you hit the 20 or so mobs chasing the cleric. you get healed.
My end conclution is this is the cleric babysitter class. you dont want him to near the tank due to KB of some of his powers but if you have him camped out near the cleric and CW or rushing between the two keeping mobs off them while they focus on keeping the guardian healed and boss held. this guy is just made for kiting a ton of trash mobs since otherwize they will just respawn. since he annoys a lot of people at once and has the capability to keep massive numbers of trash ...interested.
Yeah, the charge up is insane for an action game. I'm going to sit there and charge up an ability when I need to move often. I can take the damage and risk being interrupted to get very minimal dps gain over spamming another aoe skill. No thanks jeff.
GF can't do any damage, so in pvp that just means you live a few seconds longer but still die. In pve your taunts suck and you still take a bunch of damage, less then other classes but still enough so that the class is not any fun considering the fact that you dish out so little damage yourself.
GWF a little more fun to play you can do damage not as much as a rogue but good damage to multiple mobs. But you take a lot of damage too.
I tried a rogue and fell in love with the class, great damage, squishy as **** but who cares i kill things fast. My hit points are always like 25 % but I rarely die.
The DPS wasn't as great as I was thinking it should have been, but as others have pointed out, the class seems to build into its DPS later. This could be a problem early on as players might stop playing the class early on because of the mechanics.
To hit upon some specific points from early levels in particular:
1) Reaping Strike (the second At-will), which requires you to charge up while remaining rooted, is completely useless. Given the amount of movement required, the player is frequently forced to waste half-charged attacks, which do NOTHING until a certain threshold is passed. Furthermore, standing still incurs a decent amount of damage just from basic attacks, which is a serious liability at lower levels when the GWF has no self-heals or survivability mechanics other than potions. The bonus to Determination generation is cold comfort for levels you're stuck with this At-Will before the Tab Mechanic is unlocked at level 10. This one needs to be seriously rethought; at the very least, Sure Strike should be available sooner, saving Reaping for later when it might interact better with other mechanics. Which brings us to..
2) The self-heal on Restoring Strike needs to buffed. Significantly. It seems to heal for about 10% (maybe 20% at higher levels?) of damage. That amounts to about 200 HP at level 30, on an heath pool of over 8000. Or in other words, a single normal attack's worth of damage from a normal mob. That's beyond insignificant. Now, the funny thing is, I actually kept Restoring Strike on my bar all weekend despite this glaring failure; it hits like a truck on single targets, which you need sometimes. And once I got my Cleric companion, my need for self-heals was mitigated a bit (setting aside the huge issues with cleric pet aggro..). But at early levels, this feels a bit limp.
3) Determination generation feels really slow, particularly given that it decays out of combat. My only other point of contrast is the Cleric, but Divine Power filled up very quickly. Determination is built largely by taking damage (killing enemies, yes, but then they're dead, and the bar decays ooc, so...), which feels wrong for a class that's not supposed to tank. This is particularly egregious in dungeons, where DPS shouldn't be taking damage, generally. Furthermore, the Unstoppable buff doesn't last long enough to feel worth the time commitment to building up that meter. Now, at later levels, I did subjectively feel like I was using Determination more, but something could use to be tweaked at lower levels.
Overall, I thought the class actually really blossomed with some time investment, and things got a lot smoother once I endured the first 15-20 levels. I thought my DPS was fine; I never felt solo fights dragged, and in skirmishes and dungeons, my numbers were solid versus anyone who wasn't a rogue. But those early experiences need to be tightened up or people won't stick with the class.
Basically you need to learn what stats to build and then stick with them. Know the class Iam pretty sure alot of people didnt build him right. My healing strike was healing me for a hell of alot more then 15 hp but Iam guessing you didnt have alot of power. As far as being slow and clunky? Orc gets a boost with speed......I used my skills wisely enough to gain momentum there are alot of jumping to or charge through skills that will get you from point a to b fast. I had no problem catching rouges and killing them. Pretty much thats who I targeted Rogues and Wizards and I did well. Wizard and his freeze would hurt me but I would get there in time and once I was in his face he couldnt outlast me.