I never said anything about D&D 4th edition rules so I'm not sure why I seem to be held to that in your post.
The rest of the post past the cleric point was purely general and not directed at any one post.
As for Gill's point, I never said those limitations were in 4th Edition PnP. It could be read as that but I certainly didn't say it. The limitations came around due to the fact this game threw away basic attacks for at will and power mechanics. Any class in PnP can pick up a bow and be worthwhile in PnP since basic attacks exist however in this customized version of the rules, in which At-Wills are basic attacks, the option isn't as simple.
More customization options are needed, I didn't say they weren't so let's not put words into my mouth, but some limitations *at this point in time* are simply out of the question...such as switching to bows.
I have a whole slew of suggestions compiled from this thread drafted out to post (in a new thread) which includes weapon proficiencies...
But after picking apart *every* single post within this thread, jotting three full pages of notes and tallying the topics and noting importances and similarities the actual limitations are rather sparse...honestly every single thing boils down to only a few big points which need focus on. It's not doing justice to say this game is nothing like fourth edition or D&D. I'll prove that point when I post the end-result of this thread's feedback.
As for the DM Client, the problem with that concept is that the Foundry Content IS the main server. There will be no separate server hosts and isolated content. Any advantage that a DM could give a player would inevitably effect the main server so a DM Client would be a huge potential exploit. It might be considered in the future but we're talking years away because that would be a huge undertaking with challenges equally if not exceeding The Foundry Development.
The only reason the DM Client worked so well for NWN was because all servers were privately hosted. The potential changes exponentially in an MMO Environment.
Just like any other edition, you can gain any proficiency in any class in fourth edition too. The fact of 4th edition has nothing to do at all with any argument of limitations.
Fourth edition is vastly diverse and there is no locking of any kind at all. It is even more versatile than 3rd edition when considered that it does not have alignment locks over classes.
Blaming limitations of game on fourth edition is very misleading and untrue.
EDIT:
Besides the game's mechanics have nothing to do with 4e PnP mechanics at all except for faking of similar names and "trend keywords" picked from the PnP books.
Claiming that an entire edition of the game is more versitile than the rest on the basis of alignment restrictions alone is highly disingenuous. Working around alignment limitations in earlier editions is, for the most part, extremely easy. All the running DM has to do is say "there are no alignments* and/or alignment-class restrictions in my campaign" /end
Working around any of the limitations in 4e people normally talk about, however, would take massive system overhauls. They're just not something you can easily overcome in your own campaign by simply ignoring them.
And on the topic of 4e vs. former editions of the game and the so called "edition wars", no its not just about "edition wars". I could care less about any specific edition of D&D prior to 4e (I always played highly modified versions of the rules in my campaigns anyways) and was never I huge fan of ANY of them. And I still say that 4e is just completely different than anything that came before it and saw the most significant changes between editions in the game's history.
This isn't just a matter of opinion but a matter of fact. They completely restructured classes in 4e--that alone is a massive difference from anything that any earlier edition of the game did. While every former edition of the game did some class changes, the classes didn't radically change between editions and most of the changes were superficial, like standardizing hit dice for all classes of the same category in 2nd, letting us spend points in "theiving skills" instead of getting a fixed value based on our level, or eventually simply making them "skills", which is more straightforward, versitile and convenient, etc. Plus many other things that would take too long to point out.
But the point is that complaints about 4e are NOT just about people refusing to adapt to change and clinging to their favorite edition of the game. The edition is just "different" in many significant ways than anything that came before it.
*as I did in my own games when I came to the conclusion that alignment were an ineffective RP "tool" that mostly served to disrupt the game with pointless discussions about what someone of X or Y alignment would or wouldn't do at any given situation.
As for the DM Client, the problem with that concept is that the Foundry Content IS the main server. There will be no separate server hosts and isolated content. Any advantage that a DM could give a player would inevitably effect the main server so a DM Client would be a huge potential exploit. It might be considered in the future but we're talking years away because that would be a huge undertaking with challenges equally if not exceeding The Foundry Development.
The only reason the DM Client worked so well for NWN was because all servers were privately hosted. The potential changes exponentially in an MMO Environment.
There are ways to provide leadership/storytelling in the foundry other than demigod like powers. An additional simple character slot add on for the DM's position to speak occasionally and guide a party within an adventure would probably be enough. The limitations would only be by the characters own ability to carry out instructions. A well thought out plan should lead to some great times if a guild, for instance wants to spend time together in a particular setting. Award winning creations, could be awarded additional perks along these lines.
What does any of that have to do with not having a DM option?
OK, I'll take this slowly.
The Superhuman genre is derived mainly from comics, known these days as graphic novels.
Role-playing games written for the superhuman genre seek to simulate the comics with concepts such as powers that can be continually be repeated and quick, flexible game-play.
The Fantasy genre comes from written works such by authors such as J.J.R. Tolkien, Jack Vance and C. S. Lewis.
Role-playing games written for the Fantasy genre generally allow you to recreate the life of characters from these types of novels, in an entertaining and narrative style.
MMO means Massively Multiplayer Online game while NeverWinter Nights (NWN) was more designed around home servers.
Because NWN was based on the Fantasy genre, on home servers, a DM client was very appropriate and was implemented.
However Neverwinter Online's (NO's) base system, D&D4, meant that a Superhero MMO was closer to D&D4 than a Fantasy MMO.
MMOs are unlikely to have a DM client, Superhuman MMOs are even more unlikely to have a DM client.
However I'm looking to forward to play NO because it is based on a Superhuman MMO.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Role-playing games written for the superhuman genre seek to simulate the comics with concepts such as powers that can be continually be repeated and quick, flexible game-play.
Role-playing games written for the Fantasy genre generally allow you to recreate the life of characters from these types of novels, in an entertaining and narrative style.
4) So do the many Role-Playing Games for the Superpower genre. I can name 4 off the top of my head without even thinking about it.
MMOs are unlikely to have a DM client, Superhuman MMOs are even more unlikely to have a DM client.
MMOs are unlikely to have a UGC system as well so by this reasoning NWO shouldn't have a UGC system either, and NWO does. So why not a DM Client? As far as superhuman MMOs see #4. There is no significant difference between a fantasy and superhero RPG that would support the statement.
However I'm looking to forward to play NO because it is based on a Superhuman MMO.
Nothing you have said here supports the earlier statement.
"A DM client would be good but NO is a D&D4 MMO, based on a superhuman MMO."
I asked a serious question and you responded with,
"I will take this slowly"
and even given that, gave no real reason why NWO being a "D&D4 MMO, based on a superhuman MMO" has any bearing on NWO not having a DM client when it is already doing things that 99.9% of all MMOs don't do. UGC, which ties in with a DM Client.
Okay, totally leaving out edition...the game still isn't D&D to me. As it sits on the table RIGHT NOW...it's far too restrictive to be even halfway to D&D.
Too many choices are made FOR the player, rather then letting the player make the choices for themselves.
Ambisinisterr spoke truly when he said (and I paraphrase) "more customization is needed". I do realize that the level of customization might not ever be reached in my opinion, I am glad to see it has been recognized.
Customization of characters with literally dozens of sliders....that make almost no noticeable changes in your character....the inability to choose your weapon, armor, etc....cookie cutter builds.... yeah. Definitely more customization is desperately needed.
Also realize....that despite my trash talk of the game so far...I fully intend to give it a fair shake when it's released, because beta videos and reviews based on beta game play models are completely different from the actual finished model. The trash talk is based upon the visual and written evidence I've seen so far.
As a further addendum....this is my take on the matter. My interpretation of the data available. Seems I need to clarify that occasionally, as people seem to put authority behind my posts, as if I had some kind of inside source of info other than decades of gaming XP.
It's an MMO. It can't have a DM client. The two concepts are utterly at odds with each other. The client cannot be trusted; any client, DM or otherwise. Everything of any ingame consequence MUST be controlled by the server. That is the inevitable core of an MMORPG.
If you want a DM client, you don't want an MMORPG. That's fine; not everybody likes the same genre of game. But this is an MMORPG,a nd it's going to remain an MMORPG. It cannot be under a DM's direct real-time control. You're wishing for another game. That other game will probably be fun too, I'll be glad to play it with you; but THIS game is an MMORPG, and that's not going to change.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Okay, totally leaving out edition...the game still isn't D&D to me. As it sits on the table RIGHT NOW...it's far too restrictive to be even halfway to D&D.
Too many choices are made FOR the player, rather then letting the player make the choices for themselves.
Ambisinisterr spoke truly when he said (and I paraphrase) "more customization is needed". I do realize that the level of customization might not ever be reached in my opinion, I am glad to see it has been recognized.
Customization of characters with literally dozens of sliders....that make almost no noticeable changes in your character....the inability to choose your weapon, armor, etc....cookie cutter builds.... yeah. Definitely more customization is desperately needed.
Also realize....that despite my trash talk of the game so far...I fully intend to give it a fair shake when it's released, because beta videos and reviews based on beta game play models are completely different from the actual finished model. The trash talk is based upon the visual and written evidence I've seen so far.
As a further addendum....this is my take on the matter. My interpretation of the data available. Seems I need to clarify that occasionally, as people seem to put authority behind my posts, as if I had some kind of inside source of info other than decades of gaming XP.
I totally get your points, but Neverwinter is NOT a D&D Tabletop simulator. It's an action MMO based in the D&D world, using the D&D 4E rules as a foundation.
It's a totally seperate product and experience from what you get in a table top environement.
If you love playing the PnP D&D, you're not going to replace that experience with Neverwinter. You're still going to get all the guys around the table, load up on Mt. Dew and pizza, and roll those 20's. Neverwinter is a D&D product that you can play during those times when you're not actually roleplaying traditional D&D style.
Neverwinter is still going to be fun. It'll still give me my fix for D&D, but it will in no way replace the experience I can get at the D&D table. I'm not trying to be arugmenative here, because all your above points are 100% valid IF the goal was to recreate the tabletop experience. But it's not.
It's a video game. An MMO, and we all know the limitations here. D&D is just too awesome, in any edition, to be contained within the confines of a program. It's simply impossible, with the current technology we have, to program the D&D experience, since the "be anything you want, do anything you want, tell any story you want" freedom is paramount to the D&D experience.
/beats horse for 6d10+22 points of damage
/horse is DEAD!
I totally get your points, but Neverwinter is NOT a D&D Tabletop simulator. It's an action MMO based in the D&D world, using the D&D 4E rules as a foundation.
It's a totally seperate product and experience from what you get in a table top environement.
If you love playing the PnP D&D, you're not going to replace that experience with Neverwinter. You're still going to get all the guys around the table, load up on Mt. Dew and pizza, and roll those 20's. Neverwinter is a D&D product that you can play during those times when you're not actually roleplaying traditional D&D style.
Neverwinter is still going to be fun. It'll still give me my fix for D&D, but it will in no way replace the experience I can get at the D&D table. I'm not trying to be arugmenative here, because all your above points are 100% valid IF the goal was to recreate the tabletop experience. But it's not.
It's a video game. An MMO, and we all know the limitations here. D&D is just too awesome, in any edition, to be contained within the confines of a program. It's simply impossible, with the current technology we have, to program the D&D experience, since the "be anything you want, do anything you want, tell any story you want" freedom is paramount to the D&D experience.
/beats horse for 6d10+22 points of damage
/horse is DEAD!
Despite the dead horse, you really did sum the game up quite nicely. Good job. Let's just hope that people don't set themselves up with excessive expectations.
Same reason we are almost always disappointed with a move that was based on a book. It is simply impossible to replicate the limitless power of the imagination. D&D is and always has been about the powers of the mind. Expecting any current technology to replicate the happenings of your imagination will always lead to some level of disappointment.
... All the running DM has to do is say "there are no alignments* and/or alignment-class restrictions in my campaign" /end
...
Working around any of the limitations in 4e people normally talk about, however, would take massive system overhauls. They're just not something you can easily overcome in your own campaign by simply ignoring them.
...
*as I did in my own games when I came to the conclusion that alignment were an ineffective RP "tool" that mostly served to disrupt the game with pointless discussions about what someone of X or Y alignment would or wouldn't do at any given situation.
- that is homebrew and a DM can brew anything.
- the changes in 3e to 4e are in no way 'larger' or lesser than the changes from AD&D to 3e. Perceptions are not facts.
- That is exactly what devs of 4e had to say: that alignment were restrictive to a good tabletop game. Hence they gae more freedom to DM unlike 3e. When 3e was released its criticism was that it took away the freedom and gave more stress to number crunching. 4e corrected that.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Same reason we are almost always disappointed with a move that was based on a book. It is simply impossible to replicate the limitless power of the imagination. D&D is and always has been about the powers of the mind. Expecting any current technology to replicate the happenings of your imagination will always lead to some level of disappointment.
Exactly! You can't ask a person to accruately program your imagination!
It's an MMO. It can't have a DM client. The two concepts are utterly at odds with each other. The client cannot be trusted; any client, DM or otherwise. Everything of any ingame consequence MUST be controlled by the server. That is the inevitable core of an MMORPG..
Opinion. A DM Client is entirely possible. The NWO Server would still control everything, but it would allow a DM Client to trigger certain effects, or (request that the server) insert/activate level appropriate NPCs or items. The DM Client would, of course, be limited to only interacting with (one or more active) UGC created by the user of the DM Client.
It's an MMO. It can't have a DM client. The two concepts are utterly at odds with each other. The client cannot be trusted; any client, DM or otherwise. Everything of any ingame consequence MUST be controlled by the server. That is the inevitable core of an MMORPG.
There are plenty of things a "DM Client" could do that does not really interfere with with this. "GMs" in most MMOs have "godlike" powers, while not quite all the powers of NWN's DM Clilent. Giving creators a limited form of those powers inside their content is completely possible. Open to possible exploits? Yeah, but still doable.
If you want a DM client, you don't want an MMORPG. That's fine; not everybody likes the same genre of game. But this is an MMORPG,a nd it's going to remain an MMORPG. It cannot be under a DM's direct real-time control. You're wishing for another game. That other game will probably be fun too, I'll be glad to play it with you; but THIS game is an MMORPG, and that's not going to change.
I am not wishing for another game. What I have suggested is totally doable in an MMO, even when I was a guide in EQ oh so many years ago I had a limited form of "DM Powers". While I would agree that it is difficult, I don't believe that it would be impossible. We already have pieces of a DM Client in the Foundry.
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silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
The Superhuman genre is derived mainly from comics, known these days as graphic novels.
Role-playing games written for the superhuman genre seek to simulate the comics with concepts such as powers that can be continually be repeated and quick, flexible game-play.
The Fantasy genre comes from written works such by authors such as J.J.R. Tolkien, Jack Vance and C. S. Lewis.
Role-playing games written for the Fantasy genre generally allow you to recreate the life of characters from these types of novels, in an entertaining and narrative style.
MMO means Massively Multiplayer Online game while NeverWinter Nights (NWN) was more designed around home servers.
Because NWN was based on the Fantasy genre, on home servers, a DM client was very appropriate and was implemented.
However Neverwinter Online's (NO's) base system, D&D4, meant that a Superhero MMO was closer to D&D4 than a Fantasy MMO.
MMOs are unlikely to have a DM client, Superhuman MMOs are even more unlikely to have a DM client.
However I'm looking to forward to play NO because it is based on a Superhuman MMO.
Forgive me if I am misreading here, but your assertion that NW is based on a Superhero MMO seems to be out of a belief that it was somehow entirely built from Champions Online. This is not the case. Neverwinter, Champions Online, Star Trek Online and any other game that Cryptic is working on or will work on in the near future do share a game engine and they do have a limited ability to import code across them because of this shared game engine. But, that's it. The Cryptic Engine is a proprietary game engine that they use for all their titles. It was not developed solely for one particular game, but as a base engine for any MMO they make regardless of genre or setting.
In fact, I would say that it may even be slightly more accurate (but still wrong) at this point in their development cycle to say that Champions Online is "based on" Neverwinter. I think much of the new stuff CO has gotten over the last year or more is branched off of work done for NW and even STO. For example, the CO crafting system was scrapped and replace with a Mod system that looks to actually have been lifted from an early version of NW's enchantment system. Vehicles showed up in CO while they are working on NW, a fantasy setting with mounts. Probably even some stuff for the Heavy Weapons power set in CO came from NW.
The Foundry is a big part of NW which was implemented first in STO. Does that mean every Foundry mission is based on a science fiction space game?
I just wanted to clarify that although all of the Cryptic Engine games can share some code and sometimes even entire systems between each other, they are truly separate games and NW was not built from CO. Rather, they were both built on top of a common foundation.
- the changes in 3e to 4e are in no way 'larger' or lesser than the changes from AD&D to 3e. Perceptions are not facts.
- That is exactly what devs of 4e had to say: that alignment were restrictive to a good tabletop game. Hence they gae more freedom to DM unlike 3e. When 3e was released its criticism was that it took away the freedom and gave more stress to number crunching. 4e corrected that.
I agree about perception. In fact, the emphasis on number crunching in 3E makes it the least "authentic" edition of D&D in my perception. But, that's just my perception.
As far as Alignment goes, I recall hearing someone from WotC speaking once and they said that one of the biggest discussion points for any new edition has always been Alignment and whether or not to keep it. Their data suggested that it was the single most modified, ignored, or outright removed rule in D&D.
But, there is something so iconic about Lawful Good, Chaotic Evil, and so on. Then again, I remember when they were just Lawful or Chaotic and my character's "class" was Elf.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2013
Champions Online was an MMO created using the Champions PnP game as a framework.
Neverwinter is a MMO being created using the D&D PnP game as a framework.
Neverwinter isn't the fantasy version of Champions Online.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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zavon01Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited February 2013
This game is definitely D&D. Anyone who has played 4th edition, for even one session, can clearly tell that this game is built around it as much as feasible for an MMO. Instead, what you have here are a bunch of people that played Neverwinter Nights, complaining because of a lack of similarity. Naturally this is absurd, because not only is this not a sequel to Neverwinter nights (thus being a completely different game), but it doesn't even follow third edition D&D rules!
And one thing I can promise above anything else there is absolutely No chance this game will be modified to resemble anything but fourth edition No matter how much anybody would prefer a different version.
If you could just make it resemble anything fourth edition
And one thing I can promise above anything else there is absolutely No chance this game will be modified to resemble anything but fourth edition No matter how much anybody would prefer a different version.
This is a very important point to remember, more important than bickering about someone sensibly refusing to participate in a flamewar.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
If you could just make it resemble anything fourth edition
Not really. Pen and paper rules systems are designed for a style of play where you spend long periods of time talking to each other out loud, and then maybe once an hour there's a combat with a handful of characters. Even with the 4e "minion" rules, it's still about one combat an hour, and everything's balanced around that so that every three play sessions or so, you level up, gaining a full step in many things.
An MMORPG can't possibly work that way. People read vastly faster than they speak, your own interaction is going to be choosing from pre-set responses, and because a computer is handling the combat instead of people, you're going to have many combats in an hour. If it used D&D rules under the hood, combined with reading and computers doing the math, you'd hit level 30 in an afternoon.
If you instead nerfed all the XP so that everything else worked the same way but it took hours or days to level, you couldn't have gear upgrades, because a single point of increased AC or Strength or whatever is a HUGE impact on combat, so you'd have to sit in the same gear for days, with your only positive reinforcement being leveling up every few days. That simply wouldn't fly with an MMO audience.
Again, this is not D&D implemented in an MMO; this is an MMO based on D&D. It MUST use a finer-grained system for advancement. It must use a finer-grained system for statistics contributing to combat. It must give more frequent feelings of increase in capability, or it would just be a failed game that very few people would play.
It's D&D to the extent that "Gauntlegrym" is D&D, not to the extent that your house campaign is. Anything else isn't feasible in an MMORPG. Maybe somebody needs to make Neverwinter Nights 3; but this is an MMORPG. They're not going to decide not to make it one in the next couple of months.
Thats why I left "resemble" in there. You can justify Cryptic all day long and say that it's not possible but in the end we all know where they went wrong, why they did it and that it IS possible. DDO exists, it uses a d20 system, it's a MMO, deal with it.
I agree about perception. In fact, the emphasis on number crunching in 3E makes it the least "authentic" edition of D&D in my perception. But, that's just my perception.
I think one is entitled to say they didn't like 3e, I am not sure it's valid to say it was "inauthentic".
As someone who witnessed the birth of 3e while actually working at Wizards, I can tell you, great care was taken to keep the spirit of D&D intact. It was also a widely popular iteration that SAVED the brand, (which was in dire straights at the time). I no longer work for Wizards by the way, and haven't for a long time, just for the record.
One of the reasons Paizo has exploded with Pathfinder, is because of the loyalty 3e and 3.5 produced. Pathfinder is a great thing for that reason, in my opinion, because it provided more options, more competition, which is always a good thing in the marketplace. It's currently my preferred tabletop system right now, for the record.
Again, there are those that prefer 4e, or (yuck) 2e, or insist on going old school 1e (which I have a lot of nostalgia for, but I personally find unplayable nowadays).
So it's good you admit, we all have preferences and tastes in these things. That's what makes D&D great, it has a wide variety of ways to plays and rules to support them (and 5e will exploit this even more, as we'll soon see).
But in terms of "authenticity", call my quibble semantic if you want, but I don't see that as something a fan can judge. It's authentic if the stewards of the brand say its authentic. That's just how intellectual property works. You might hate the new Volkswagen GTI, but you can't debate that it's an "inauthentic" Volkswagen.
Just a minor point really, but one I felt compelled to make.
As for alignments, I tossed them out a long time ago on my table. I use the planes, (which are based on alignments) but even there, I muddy the water a little, but as a RP tool, they just didn't seem necessary.
All these things come down to taste and saying "I don't like Neverwinter Online" is valid, saying "4th Edition is the best D&D version ever made, in my opinion" is also perfectly valid.
Saying a product isn't authentic, or isn't really D&D, even though it's branded as Dungeons & Dragons by the very people that own the property, endorsed by them, supported by them and were vital in its design and approval, is just egotism.
We're all entitled to our opinion (and Lord knows I have lots of opinions), but facts are facts. They are stubborn things, facts.
SHADOW - A secret cabal for those who thirst for wealth and power. Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
Thats why I left "resemble" in there. You can justify Cryptic all day long and say that it's not possible but in the end we all know where they went wrong, why they did it and that it IS possible. DDO exists, it uses a d20 system, it's a MMO, deal with it.
Except it isn't. Under the hood, it's not a linear d20 system at all, it's way more fine-grained. AC is divided up into five stats. Neverwinter just lies about it less.
Except it isn't. Under the hood, it's not a linear d20 system at all, it's way more fine-grained. AC is divided up into five stats. Neverwinter just lies about it less.
One of the things, I think, 4e tried to do, was model itself more like an MMO, so that a transition to a digital game, could be easier. I personally think it was one of the many flaws in 4e. I also know for a fact, that during it inception many of the caretakers were hopelessly addicted to WOW (which I don't think helped at all)
But MMOs are vastly different beasts than paper games. The two can "borrow" ideas from one another, (hit points for example, something I believe D&D invented for RPGs, seem to persist in every MMO and RPG video game I've ever played). There seems to be a common "to hit percentage if successful then damage - mitigation" formula too, that's fairly common in most of these games.
But at some point, you have to deal with several key differences in table top and digital play. In table top, you MUST accept that rolling dice, adding/subtracting bonuses, then consulting paper data to consult success probability is time-consuming. Meaning, you can't take what WOW does when you swing a sword and convert it to dice and paper. The math prohibits it. Similarly, paper games simplify some of the math and tiered-constructs (like levels, bonuses and other statistical variation) so that it doesn't bring combat on the table to a crawl.
You'd be a fool to design a paper game with MMO math and an MMO with paper math. I mean d20s come in large 5% variances, which really limits your choices. Anyone who has compared the statistical elegance of strat-o-matic cards to MLB Showdown cards knows just how limiting a d20 can be. But even strat-o-matic can't compete with digital baseball simulators, and rightly so. SABR takes those calculations and simulations to a whole new level, because the medium they perform those simulations with permit it.
And the poster above is right, the Eberron D&D MMO didn't follow 3rd E rules to the letter either. It provided bonuses and other variants while you were in mid-stream of a level, for one thing. It had a bastardized set of feats/skills for another. And in the end, one of its flaws was it didn't have the kind of statistical agility, most gamers expect in an MMO. So it's closer adherence to a paper system was a flaw, not an asset, at least if the market place is to to be believed.
But this isn't particularly vital to the discussion of what is and what is not D&D.
You see, statistical constructs are not what D&D really is. It never has been.
If it were, it would mean that despite all the rule variants, expansions, editions and such, only one statistical model could be deemed as "truly D&D". That would mean 4th Edition is about to be invalidated entirely in about 9-12 months, anyway when 5e comes out. If you concede all kinds of variants/editions of D&D have been devised over time and all of them are valid, then you must concede NWO is just another one of those variants, one designed specifically for an action-based MMO.
"This isn't D&D" is a crock reaction to this game. You are perfectly entitled to say you don't like the game. To claim "it isn't D&D" demonstrates either arrogance, or willful ignorance of what D&D actually is.
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Comments
What does any of that have to do with not having a DM option?
Oooh, no you didn't! I was talking about a Fighter. You were a Cleric.
I never said anything about D&D 4th edition rules so I'm not sure why I seem to be held to that in your post.
The rest of the post past the cleric point was purely general and not directed at any one post.
As for Gill's point, I never said those limitations were in 4th Edition PnP. It could be read as that but I certainly didn't say it. The limitations came around due to the fact this game threw away basic attacks for at will and power mechanics. Any class in PnP can pick up a bow and be worthwhile in PnP since basic attacks exist however in this customized version of the rules, in which At-Wills are basic attacks, the option isn't as simple.
More customization options are needed, I didn't say they weren't so let's not put words into my mouth, but some limitations *at this point in time* are simply out of the question...such as switching to bows.
I have a whole slew of suggestions compiled from this thread drafted out to post (in a new thread) which includes weapon proficiencies...
But after picking apart *every* single post within this thread, jotting three full pages of notes and tallying the topics and noting importances and similarities the actual limitations are rather sparse...honestly every single thing boils down to only a few big points which need focus on. It's not doing justice to say this game is nothing like fourth edition or D&D. I'll prove that point when I post the end-result of this thread's feedback.
As for the DM Client, the problem with that concept is that the Foundry Content IS the main server. There will be no separate server hosts and isolated content. Any advantage that a DM could give a player would inevitably effect the main server so a DM Client would be a huge potential exploit. It might be considered in the future but we're talking years away because that would be a huge undertaking with challenges equally if not exceeding The Foundry Development.
The only reason the DM Client worked so well for NWN was because all servers were privately hosted. The potential changes exponentially in an MMO Environment.
Claiming that an entire edition of the game is more versitile than the rest on the basis of alignment restrictions alone is highly disingenuous. Working around alignment limitations in earlier editions is, for the most part, extremely easy. All the running DM has to do is say "there are no alignments* and/or alignment-class restrictions in my campaign" /end
Working around any of the limitations in 4e people normally talk about, however, would take massive system overhauls. They're just not something you can easily overcome in your own campaign by simply ignoring them.
And on the topic of 4e vs. former editions of the game and the so called "edition wars", no its not just about "edition wars". I could care less about any specific edition of D&D prior to 4e (I always played highly modified versions of the rules in my campaigns anyways) and was never I huge fan of ANY of them. And I still say that 4e is just completely different than anything that came before it and saw the most significant changes between editions in the game's history.
This isn't just a matter of opinion but a matter of fact. They completely restructured classes in 4e--that alone is a massive difference from anything that any earlier edition of the game did. While every former edition of the game did some class changes, the classes didn't radically change between editions and most of the changes were superficial, like standardizing hit dice for all classes of the same category in 2nd, letting us spend points in "theiving skills" instead of getting a fixed value based on our level, or eventually simply making them "skills", which is more straightforward, versitile and convenient, etc. Plus many other things that would take too long to point out.
But the point is that complaints about 4e are NOT just about people refusing to adapt to change and clinging to their favorite edition of the game. The edition is just "different" in many significant ways than anything that came before it.
*as I did in my own games when I came to the conclusion that alignment were an ineffective RP "tool" that mostly served to disrupt the game with pointless discussions about what someone of X or Y alignment would or wouldn't do at any given situation.
There are ways to provide leadership/storytelling in the foundry other than demigod like powers. An additional simple character slot add on for the DM's position to speak occasionally and guide a party within an adventure would probably be enough. The limitations would only be by the characters own ability to carry out instructions. A well thought out plan should lead to some great times if a guild, for instance wants to spend time together in a particular setting. Award winning creations, could be awarded additional perks along these lines.
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Otter ~~~~ on Beholder
OK, I'll take this slowly.
The Superhuman genre is derived mainly from comics, known these days as graphic novels.
Role-playing games written for the superhuman genre seek to simulate the comics with concepts such as powers that can be continually be repeated and quick, flexible game-play.
The Fantasy genre comes from written works such by authors such as J.J.R. Tolkien, Jack Vance and C. S. Lewis.
Role-playing games written for the Fantasy genre generally allow you to recreate the life of characters from these types of novels, in an entertaining and narrative style.
MMO means Massively Multiplayer Online game while NeverWinter Nights (NWN) was more designed around home servers.
Because NWN was based on the Fantasy genre, on home servers, a DM client was very appropriate and was implemented.
However Neverwinter Online's (NO's) base system, D&D4, meant that a Superhero MMO was closer to D&D4 than a Fantasy MMO.
MMOs are unlikely to have a DM client, Superhuman MMOs are even more unlikely to have a DM client.
However I'm looking to forward to play NO because it is based on a Superhuman MMO.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Nothing to do with not having a dm client.
1) Nothing to do with not having a DM client.
2) Nothing to do with not having a DM Client.
3) Nothing to do with not having a DM Client.
4) So do the many Role-Playing Games for the Superpower genre. I can name 4 off the top of my head without even thinking about it.
Nothing to do with not having a DM Client.
Nothing to do with not having a DM Client.
Do I need to say it again? See #4
and again?
MMOs are unlikely to have a UGC system as well so by this reasoning NWO shouldn't have a UGC system either, and NWO does. So why not a DM Client? As far as superhuman MMOs see #4. There is no significant difference between a fantasy and superhero RPG that would support the statement.
Nothing you have said here supports the earlier statement.
"A DM client would be good but NO is a D&D4 MMO, based on a superhuman MMO."
I asked a serious question and you responded with,
"I will take this slowly"
and even given that, gave no real reason why NWO being a "D&D4 MMO, based on a superhuman MMO" has any bearing on NWO not having a DM client when it is already doing things that 99.9% of all MMOs don't do. UGC, which ties in with a DM Client.
Too many choices are made FOR the player, rather then letting the player make the choices for themselves.
Ambisinisterr spoke truly when he said (and I paraphrase) "more customization is needed". I do realize that the level of customization might not ever be reached in my opinion, I am glad to see it has been recognized.
Customization of characters with literally dozens of sliders....that make almost no noticeable changes in your character....the inability to choose your weapon, armor, etc....cookie cutter builds.... yeah. Definitely more customization is desperately needed.
Also realize....that despite my trash talk of the game so far...I fully intend to give it a fair shake when it's released, because beta videos and reviews based on beta game play models are completely different from the actual finished model. The trash talk is based upon the visual and written evidence I've seen so far.
As a further addendum....this is my take on the matter. My interpretation of the data available. Seems I need to clarify that occasionally, as people seem to put authority behind my posts, as if I had some kind of inside source of info other than decades of gaming XP.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
I'll have to remind you of my rule of not arguing with people who might be youngsters.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Dismissal and belittlement of the other party rather than addressing their counterpoints is a sure sign of immaturity.
If you want a DM client, you don't want an MMORPG. That's fine; not everybody likes the same genre of game. But this is an MMORPG,a nd it's going to remain an MMORPG. It cannot be under a DM's direct real-time control. You're wishing for another game. That other game will probably be fun too, I'll be glad to play it with you; but THIS game is an MMORPG, and that's not going to change.
I totally get your points, but Neverwinter is NOT a D&D Tabletop simulator. It's an action MMO based in the D&D world, using the D&D 4E rules as a foundation.
It's a totally seperate product and experience from what you get in a table top environement.
If you love playing the PnP D&D, you're not going to replace that experience with Neverwinter. You're still going to get all the guys around the table, load up on Mt. Dew and pizza, and roll those 20's. Neverwinter is a D&D product that you can play during those times when you're not actually roleplaying traditional D&D style.
Neverwinter is still going to be fun. It'll still give me my fix for D&D, but it will in no way replace the experience I can get at the D&D table. I'm not trying to be arugmenative here, because all your above points are 100% valid IF the goal was to recreate the tabletop experience. But it's not.
It's a video game. An MMO, and we all know the limitations here. D&D is just too awesome, in any edition, to be contained within the confines of a program. It's simply impossible, with the current technology we have, to program the D&D experience, since the "be anything you want, do anything you want, tell any story you want" freedom is paramount to the D&D experience.
/beats horse for 6d10+22 points of damage
/horse is DEAD!
Despite the dead horse, you really did sum the game up quite nicely. Good job. Let's just hope that people don't set themselves up with excessive expectations.
- that is homebrew and a DM can brew anything.
- the changes in 3e to 4e are in no way 'larger' or lesser than the changes from AD&D to 3e. Perceptions are not facts.
- That is exactly what devs of 4e had to say: that alignment were restrictive to a good tabletop game. Hence they gae more freedom to DM unlike 3e. When 3e was released its criticism was that it took away the freedom and gave more stress to number crunching. 4e corrected that.
Exactly! You can't ask a person to accruately program your imagination!
Opinion. A DM Client is entirely possible. The NWO Server would still control everything, but it would allow a DM Client to trigger certain effects, or (request that the server) insert/activate level appropriate NPCs or items. The DM Client would, of course, be limited to only interacting with (one or more active) UGC created by the user of the DM Client.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
There are plenty of things a "DM Client" could do that does not really interfere with with this. "GMs" in most MMOs have "godlike" powers, while not quite all the powers of NWN's DM Clilent. Giving creators a limited form of those powers inside their content is completely possible. Open to possible exploits? Yeah, but still doable.
I am not wishing for another game. What I have suggested is totally doable in an MMO, even when I was a guide in EQ oh so many years ago I had a limited form of "DM Powers". While I would agree that it is difficult, I don't believe that it would be impossible. We already have pieces of a DM Client in the Foundry.
Forgive me if I am misreading here, but your assertion that NW is based on a Superhero MMO seems to be out of a belief that it was somehow entirely built from Champions Online. This is not the case. Neverwinter, Champions Online, Star Trek Online and any other game that Cryptic is working on or will work on in the near future do share a game engine and they do have a limited ability to import code across them because of this shared game engine. But, that's it. The Cryptic Engine is a proprietary game engine that they use for all their titles. It was not developed solely for one particular game, but as a base engine for any MMO they make regardless of genre or setting.
In fact, I would say that it may even be slightly more accurate (but still wrong) at this point in their development cycle to say that Champions Online is "based on" Neverwinter. I think much of the new stuff CO has gotten over the last year or more is branched off of work done for NW and even STO. For example, the CO crafting system was scrapped and replace with a Mod system that looks to actually have been lifted from an early version of NW's enchantment system. Vehicles showed up in CO while they are working on NW, a fantasy setting with mounts. Probably even some stuff for the Heavy Weapons power set in CO came from NW.
The Foundry is a big part of NW which was implemented first in STO. Does that mean every Foundry mission is based on a science fiction space game?
I just wanted to clarify that although all of the Cryptic Engine games can share some code and sometimes even entire systems between each other, they are truly separate games and NW was not built from CO. Rather, they were both built on top of a common foundation.
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I agree about perception. In fact, the emphasis on number crunching in 3E makes it the least "authentic" edition of D&D in my perception. But, that's just my perception.
As far as Alignment goes, I recall hearing someone from WotC speaking once and they said that one of the biggest discussion points for any new edition has always been Alignment and whether or not to keep it. Their data suggested that it was the single most modified, ignored, or outright removed rule in D&D.
But, there is something so iconic about Lawful Good, Chaotic Evil, and so on. Then again, I remember when they were just Lawful or Chaotic and my character's "class" was Elf.
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Neverwinter is a MMO being created using the D&D PnP game as a framework.
Neverwinter isn't the fantasy version of Champions Online.
If you could just make it resemble anything fourth edition
This is a very important point to remember, more important than bickering about someone sensibly refusing to participate in a flamewar.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Not really. Pen and paper rules systems are designed for a style of play where you spend long periods of time talking to each other out loud, and then maybe once an hour there's a combat with a handful of characters. Even with the 4e "minion" rules, it's still about one combat an hour, and everything's balanced around that so that every three play sessions or so, you level up, gaining a full step in many things.
An MMORPG can't possibly work that way. People read vastly faster than they speak, your own interaction is going to be choosing from pre-set responses, and because a computer is handling the combat instead of people, you're going to have many combats in an hour. If it used D&D rules under the hood, combined with reading and computers doing the math, you'd hit level 30 in an afternoon.
If you instead nerfed all the XP so that everything else worked the same way but it took hours or days to level, you couldn't have gear upgrades, because a single point of increased AC or Strength or whatever is a HUGE impact on combat, so you'd have to sit in the same gear for days, with your only positive reinforcement being leveling up every few days. That simply wouldn't fly with an MMO audience.
Again, this is not D&D implemented in an MMO; this is an MMO based on D&D. It MUST use a finer-grained system for advancement. It must use a finer-grained system for statistics contributing to combat. It must give more frequent feelings of increase in capability, or it would just be a failed game that very few people would play.
It's D&D to the extent that "Gauntlegrym" is D&D, not to the extent that your house campaign is. Anything else isn't feasible in an MMORPG. Maybe somebody needs to make Neverwinter Nights 3; but this is an MMORPG. They're not going to decide not to make it one in the next couple of months.
I think one is entitled to say they didn't like 3e, I am not sure it's valid to say it was "inauthentic".
As someone who witnessed the birth of 3e while actually working at Wizards, I can tell you, great care was taken to keep the spirit of D&D intact. It was also a widely popular iteration that SAVED the brand, (which was in dire straights at the time). I no longer work for Wizards by the way, and haven't for a long time, just for the record.
One of the reasons Paizo has exploded with Pathfinder, is because of the loyalty 3e and 3.5 produced. Pathfinder is a great thing for that reason, in my opinion, because it provided more options, more competition, which is always a good thing in the marketplace. It's currently my preferred tabletop system right now, for the record.
Again, there are those that prefer 4e, or (yuck) 2e, or insist on going old school 1e (which I have a lot of nostalgia for, but I personally find unplayable nowadays).
So it's good you admit, we all have preferences and tastes in these things. That's what makes D&D great, it has a wide variety of ways to plays and rules to support them (and 5e will exploit this even more, as we'll soon see).
But in terms of "authenticity", call my quibble semantic if you want, but I don't see that as something a fan can judge. It's authentic if the stewards of the brand say its authentic. That's just how intellectual property works. You might hate the new Volkswagen GTI, but you can't debate that it's an "inauthentic" Volkswagen.
Just a minor point really, but one I felt compelled to make.
As for alignments, I tossed them out a long time ago on my table. I use the planes, (which are based on alignments) but even there, I muddy the water a little, but as a RP tool, they just didn't seem necessary.
All these things come down to taste and saying "I don't like Neverwinter Online" is valid, saying "4th Edition is the best D&D version ever made, in my opinion" is also perfectly valid.
Saying a product isn't authentic, or isn't really D&D, even though it's branded as Dungeons & Dragons by the very people that own the property, endorsed by them, supported by them and were vital in its design and approval, is just egotism.
We're all entitled to our opinion (and Lord knows I have lots of opinions), but facts are facts. They are stubborn things, facts.
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Except it isn't. Under the hood, it's not a linear d20 system at all, it's way more fine-grained. AC is divided up into five stats. Neverwinter just lies about it less.
Please show me where are those 5 stats you speak of because I cant see them.
One of the things, I think, 4e tried to do, was model itself more like an MMO, so that a transition to a digital game, could be easier. I personally think it was one of the many flaws in 4e. I also know for a fact, that during it inception many of the caretakers were hopelessly addicted to WOW (which I don't think helped at all)
But MMOs are vastly different beasts than paper games. The two can "borrow" ideas from one another, (hit points for example, something I believe D&D invented for RPGs, seem to persist in every MMO and RPG video game I've ever played). There seems to be a common "to hit percentage if successful then damage - mitigation" formula too, that's fairly common in most of these games.
But at some point, you have to deal with several key differences in table top and digital play. In table top, you MUST accept that rolling dice, adding/subtracting bonuses, then consulting paper data to consult success probability is time-consuming. Meaning, you can't take what WOW does when you swing a sword and convert it to dice and paper. The math prohibits it. Similarly, paper games simplify some of the math and tiered-constructs (like levels, bonuses and other statistical variation) so that it doesn't bring combat on the table to a crawl.
You'd be a fool to design a paper game with MMO math and an MMO with paper math. I mean d20s come in large 5% variances, which really limits your choices. Anyone who has compared the statistical elegance of strat-o-matic cards to MLB Showdown cards knows just how limiting a d20 can be. But even strat-o-matic can't compete with digital baseball simulators, and rightly so. SABR takes those calculations and simulations to a whole new level, because the medium they perform those simulations with permit it.
And the poster above is right, the Eberron D&D MMO didn't follow 3rd E rules to the letter either. It provided bonuses and other variants while you were in mid-stream of a level, for one thing. It had a bastardized set of feats/skills for another. And in the end, one of its flaws was it didn't have the kind of statistical agility, most gamers expect in an MMO. So it's closer adherence to a paper system was a flaw, not an asset, at least if the market place is to to be believed.
But this isn't particularly vital to the discussion of what is and what is not D&D.
You see, statistical constructs are not what D&D really is. It never has been.
If it were, it would mean that despite all the rule variants, expansions, editions and such, only one statistical model could be deemed as "truly D&D". That would mean 4th Edition is about to be invalidated entirely in about 9-12 months, anyway when 5e comes out. If you concede all kinds of variants/editions of D&D have been devised over time and all of them are valid, then you must concede NWO is just another one of those variants, one designed specifically for an action-based MMO.
"This isn't D&D" is a crock reaction to this game. You are perfectly entitled to say you don't like the game. To claim "it isn't D&D" demonstrates either arrogance, or willful ignorance of what D&D actually is.
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