For all those in the thread arguing about lore and its importance....there ARE NO EVIL DEITIES in this version of Forgotten Realms.
To me, that's Cryptic tossing lore right out the window...and nobody's said much about that now, have they? What happened to the cause for the Spellplague? What caused the world's upheaval in THIS realm? Because without Bane, Cyric and the rest of the evil gods....it sure isn't Forgotten Realms.
How do you know there are no evil deities? I am pretty sure they're just not selectable for characters due to story progression reasons.
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shiaikaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
For all those in the thread arguing about lore and its importance....there ARE NO EVIL DEITIES in this version of Forgotten Realms.
To me, that's Cryptic tossing lore right out the window...and nobody's said much about that now, have they? What happened to the cause for the Spellplague? What caused the world's upheaval in THIS realm? Because without Bane, Cyric and the rest of the evil gods....it sure isn't Forgotten Realms.
Dude, that's just limiting the player character selection, not the Dieties of the game. We have a Cyric tattoo!!!
For all those in the thread arguing about lore and its importance....there ARE NO EVIL DEITIES in this version of Forgotten Realms.
To me, that's Cryptic tossing lore right out the window...and nobody's said much about that now, have they? What happened to the cause for the Spellplague? What caused the world's upheaval in THIS realm? Because without Bane, Cyric and the rest of the evil gods....it sure isn't Forgotten Realms.
There are tons of evil deities in this game. However, just as the 4e core books recommend players not be allowed to serve them, this game in turn disallows it. PnP campaigns have the luxury of a DM making decisions; video games have rules.
The reason "nobody has said much about [this] now" is because your assertion isn't true.
class inspired by wow : dps tank healer / war charge /combo points for rogue / etc.
"Holy trinity" is pretty much a staple of the MMO in general, except for GW2 and there is plenty of complaints about it lacking this feature. Even in pnp the generic set up for adventures was the same, fighter/meat shield alternative, cleric/someone with ability to heal the hurt and buff the group, wizard/ranger/rogue with trap detection/disable and unlocking ability and some form of cc. What you can alternately say here is that WoW and every other MMO out there got their basic design ideas from D&D, not the other way around.
Trickster Rogue doesn't have a combo mechanic.
"war charge" I assume is Warrior's Charge, which is not exclusive to WoW and having a charge/leap/bull rush/gap closer was in D&D rules before WoW.
I will also assume that the "etc" was placed there because you lack anything else to compare, which I am sure will be shot down just like the rest of the misinformed idiocy you continue to spew forth.
There is a rumor floating around that I am working on a new foundry quest. It was started by me.
Historically, Cryptic hasn't been a model for MMO success. I don't think they ever had a game that broke 200k subs when they were charging monthly fees. I don't see why anyone is putting so much stock into one for their F2P games. They have already started to alienate their MMO base with cookie cutter toons and compartmentalized environments. And they have all the D&D purists waving their torches and pitchforks over the loss of spirit to the fundamentals game rules. In my opinion, even designing a game with the whole f2p model is an omission of neglect to the franchise. This is the Marvel super-heroes game with a D&D stamp on it. Unfortunately, the fine print sez "made in China", lmao.
NW-DT4OV7EXH
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
There are tons of evil deities in this game. However, just as the 4e core books recommend players not be allowed to serve them, this game in turn disallows it. PnP campaigns have the luxury of a DM making decisions; video games have rules.
The reason "nobody has said much about [this] now" is because your assertion isn't true.
Keep Calm and Kill Orcs.
I stand corrected, then. And hiding behind an actual 4e rule is cheap, imho. Anything that limits the creativity of a player is a bad thing in an MMORPG. THAT is fact. I really dislike not being able to make the choice for myself.
1. Huge damage numbers. 2. Level cap 60 3. Reworked skills not actually D&D rules any more. 4. Action combat but no talk about why this won't be bad for high pings. 5. Not Dark enough. 6. Active Blocking is not in D&D. 7. Classes seem like templates.
Well My thoughts on the OP:
1. I did not pay attention to the damage numbers at all. I was too engaged in having fun in combat to pay attention to it. Numbers are irrelevant as everything is scaled in some way so who cares if it is 10 or 100 or 10000000 per blow? How many licks did it take to get to the tootsie roll center? That is what matters, not how many HP damage each lick did.
2. DDO has roughly 5 levels per level. Every increment of a level you get something (IE Enhancements) until you peg out the last bubble (IE 5th sub level). What Cryptic did was basically go ahead and call them levels. I personally do not have an issue with that.
3. Are we talking about skills? Like Traps, arcane, dungeoneering, etc.? Because - yeah I wish they would actually have those available to learn like in PnP. I am not too keen on the potion/item granting temporary skill but I will make sure to carry <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> loads of those items to farm materials. I can *mostly* ignore that. YES I would prefer better, but can live with it not being there.
Are we talking about feats? I sure would like to be able to chose me some feats!
Or are we talking about Class Powers/Abilities? I will address that with item 7.
4. High Pings have always struck me as a bad thing with the active combat. I hope they have data on it and how bad it really will be. I have friends in DDO from around the world and would love to play NW with them, but they have some bad pings at times.
5. Not dark enough. I agree! We should totally have to use Torches in some undeground areas! DDO Rainbow in the dark FTW! It should be pitch black if you do not have darkvision!
6. This is a non issue to me as it is a compromize between Computer and PnP. I remember having DDO players talk about how it would be cool to be able to actually block blows by timing, etc. Well here we go!
7. The way classes work right now is my Biggest complaint. It is almost a game breaker to me. I feel like we are handed pregenerated characters the way things are now. When I mentioned my beta play in DDO last night to my guildies they all were very interested UNTIL the template was mentioned. They were not very thrilled by it. I HOPE that they include a free form option (store purchase is fine to me) where you can buy a Freefrom Rogue, Freeform Fighter, etc. and actually pick and choose powers/feats/skills. That would be a great solution for me.
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bonbruteMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I agree with OP on the point that D&D games have had bad times and good.
I have played P&P version and computer versions of D&D games almost, well my whole life (23 years). And I have to say that D&D is not for PC, not in it's original form.
But on NWO I think they might pull it since it clearly tries not to be that turn based die rolling RPG type that most of the D&D tryouts have been. It's more action oriented and the skills are similiar to P&P version of themselves, but clearly reworked to serve the game.
So to the list:
1. Huge damage numbers.
I don't think it's going to be problem after a while.
You will probably just start to ignore them after you figure out the damage system.
2. Level cap 60
Since the skills and mechanics are reworked for the game, the E4 ideal 30lvl cap won't affect too much I think. And the level cap in other games always meant that now it's just the items that you are after etc. But in this game they actually could have skill cap that depends from the player not the system.
3. Reworked skills not actually D&D rules any more.
As said before, don't think it's going to be a problem. If you know about E4 rules, you can somewhat already know what kind of a skill it will be and so on. After all the game is not trying to be P&P on 3D graphics.
4. Action combat but no talk about why this won't be bad for high pings.
In any game high ping is an issue. FPS games, RTS and so on. Only turn based games won't be suffering so much of this problem. Thank god that we don't live in 256kb/s time anymore.
5. Not Dark enough.
Original content might not be, but since there is a foundry there is a way.
6. Active Blocking is not in D&D.
As I mentioned before ---
7. Classes seem like templates.
Dun Dun duu...yeah well, they are keeping the classes simple, not sure about that one is it good or bad, just hope there is room to customize the build enough to really have different play styles.
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jim1771Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
By the way this is written I can only guess that "wow" is referring to World of Warcraft and not the word wow. If it wasn't please disregard the following statement.
I love how people keep comparing this to WoW. It is nothing like WoW.
As long as WoW is the top MMO any game made will be compaired to it.
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jim1771Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
The real reason you can tell this isn't D&D is that there are no religious fanatics comming out of the woodwork.
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xervaiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Wow you sure do think highly about your two cents there "wise man". I sure hope you feel vindicated in life assuming you're the wise one that told us all we were fools. We'll all be sure to erect statues in your honor. I'll be enjoying this game just as I did CO because I enjoyed those systems. Your favorite game seems to be screaming at the tide for fun.
The only person I care to convince is myself, the game has already passed the development changes. Coulda/shoulda/woulda isn't going to help what has been produced. It isn't YOUR game, so don't play it, as it isn't harming you or your fragile sensibilities.
It's both of our opinions. They aren't wrong, just different. Get over yourself, you've spend 3 MONTHS, whining about this game, just look at your forum post history. Either way it isn't helping the feedback to this game.
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jim1771Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Wow you sure do think highly about your two cents there "wise man". I sure hope you feel vindicated in life assuming you're the wise one that told us all we were fools. We'll all be sure to erect statues in your honor. I'll be enjoying this game just as I did CO because I enjoyed those systems. Your favorite game seems to be screaming at the tide for fun.
The only person I care to convince is myself, the game has already passed the development changes. Coulda/shoulda/woulda isn't going to help what has been produced. It isn't YOUR game, so don't play it, as it isn't harming you or your fragile sensibilities.
It's both of our opinions. They aren't wrong, just different. Get over yourself, you've spend 3 MONTHS, whining about this game, just look at your forum post history. Either way it isn't helping the feedback to this game.
I think the problem with all this "This isnt D&D!!!11" talk, is that the game is based on 4ed. After playing the beta for 30 mins, I stood back from my chair, /facepalmed and said, "Omg... this 'is' 4th edition."
The real problem is, D&D fanatics HATE 4ed. Yes, this isnt the D&D YOU love. This is the recent adaptation that was ment to mimick an MMO... and oh look, they succeeded.
Like it, or not, this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is here to stay. lol
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rojjinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
My biggest concern is if they can fix the massive memory leak I've seen many players fall too during this past beta weekend..
I think the problem with all this "This isnt D&D!!!11" talk, is that the game is based on 4ed. After playing the beta for 30 mins, I stood back from my chair, /facepalmed and said, "Omg... this 'is' 4th edition."
The real problem is, D&D fanatics HATE 4ed. Yes, this isnt the D&D YOU love. This is the recent adaptation that was ment to mimick an MMO... and oh look, they succeeded.
Like it, or not, this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is here to stay. lol
Not really, real D&D players understand that while 4E might not be the best one it IS the best one to use in a video game. The problem is there is none in this one
I think the problem with all this "This isnt D&D!!!11" talk, is that the game is based on 4ed. After playing the beta for 30 mins, I stood back from my chair, /facepalmed and said, "Omg... this 'is' 4th edition."
What about it makes it 4e for you?
The fact that it has 6 familiarly named stats Str/Dex/Int/Wis/Con/Cha (that don't seem to have any sort of major effect on gameplay)?
Maybe because the "class" names are identical to Paragon paths?
Maybe the powers have the same name as 4e powers (and "similar" effects)?
The real problem is, D&D fanatics HATE 4ed. Yes, this isnt the D&D YOU love. This is the recent adaptation that was ment to mimick an MMO... and oh look, they succeeded.
Um, I don't hate 4e - I actually DM it currently. And, yes, 4e was meant(sp) to mimick an MMO to make it much, much easier to computerize. And WHO exactly succeeded? WotC did - but Cryptic merely succeeded in putting medieval window dressing and costumes on Champions Online combat.
klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited February 2013
1) Not an issue
2) Not an issue
3) From PnP to Action MMORPG. Anyone with realistic expectations saw this coming, really.
4) This could be a valid concern, but we'll just have to wait and see for release before judging.
5) This is just a matter of taste. Make "dark" foundry missions if you find the rest is not dark enough.
6) Since this is an action game, we should be thankful there's active blocking instead of leaving it to some dice roll or stat stacking.
7) This is a valid concern
Wow you sure do think highly about your two cents there "wise man". I sure hope you feel vindicated in life assuming you're the wise one that told us all we were fools. We'll all be sure to erect statues in your honor. I'll be enjoying this game just as I did CO because I enjoyed those systems. Your favorite game seems to be screaming at the tide for fun.
The only person I care to convince is myself, the game has already passed the development changes. Coulda/shoulda/woulda isn't going to help what has been produced. It isn't YOUR game, so don't play it, as it isn't harming you or your fragile sensibilities.
It's both of our opinions. They aren't wrong, just different. Get over yourself, you've spend 3 MONTHS, whining about this game, just look at your forum post history. Either way it isn't helping the feedback to this game.
i don't want to help the feedback of this game, I want this forum to be something else than a fanboys congratulations party.
Lots of people are going to visit this forum to make up their mind about the game and the possibility of buying a pack, and they deserve at least some differents points of views.
Since I've been waiting for this game for many years, you can understand how big is my disappointment, and, since the recent history of the mmo shown that the random heroic fantasy themeparks are likely to fail, plus the cryptic previous fails, i can say with not much risks to be wrong that this game will be a fail.
And, believe it or not, it is a waste, because with such a licence, half the way was made to success...
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
i don't want to help the feedback of this game, I want this forum to be something else than a fanboys congratulations party.
Lots of people are going to visit this forum to make up their mind about the game and the possibility of buying a pack, and they deserve at least some differents points of views.
Since I've been waiting for this game for many years, you can understand how big is my disappointment, and, since the recent history of the mmo shown that the random heroic fantasy themeparks are likely to fail, plus the cryptic previous fails, i can say with not much risks to be wrong that this game will be a fail.
And, believe it or not, it is a waste, because with such a licence, half the way was made to success...
Normally I would agree with you if this was a traditional P2P MMORPG, but this one is F2P, you don't have to buy the box to try this out for an extended period of time (I realize that these type of games require more time than the usual "1 week free trial, level locked"). Download the client once it releases, see how it goes, and if you don't like it uninstall.
If you're disappointed about following the game for so long and not having your expectations realized (we have to see how realistic those were to begin with... asking for a full translation of PnP rules, like the OP mentioned, to an Action MMORPG is not realistic) it's a pity, but such things happen all the time in life for anyone about anything, you can't really do anything about it.
... asking for a full translation of PnP rules, like the OP mentioned, to an Action MMORPG is not realistic
Everyone who keeps slinging this "unrealistic" line basically doesn't know WTF they are talking about or are simply listening to poor developer excuses. I've been a software developer/architect for 35 years and been playing D&D since the release of the "Red Box." D&D 4e was designed with computer adaptation in mind. I can even see how to translate "turn-based" into action based. You could even "scale" HP's and damage by different constant values to lengthen combat into a more realistic duration compared to PnP.
Everyone who keeps slinging this "unrealistic" line basically doesn't know WTF they are talking about or are simply listening to poor developer excuses. I've been a software developer/architect for 35 years and been playing D&D since the release of the "Red Box." D&D 4e was designed with computer adaptation in mind. I can even see how to translate "turn-based" into action based. You could even "scale" HP's and damage by different constant values to lengthen combat into a more realistic duration compared to PnP.
It's "unrealistic" is bogus.
I never said a computer adaptation of DnD 4E was unrealistic. You could make a very well "translated" tactical rpg (Like Vandal Hearts for example), but not an action mmorpg. Get over it. The genre is different and once you change the genre, some rules have to go out of the window, or they just keep the name but change them entirely.
Take for example Initiative, in PnP it means the order in which character take action during the turn, whatever it is in Neverwinter (I don't even know if it's there), it cannot be a translation of the PnP rule. It could be a cooldown reducer or whatever, but it simply can't be the same as the PnP, because the order in which characters take action is entirely up to player's reflexes. (not the saving throw )
And about your "lengthen combat into a more realistic duration compared to PnP" I'm not even sure what you mean, if you want to CHANGE it from PnP then you're not translating it, so that's actually what I was talking about, if you want to keep the length of Fourth Edition PnP fights the same as in an Action RPG, LOL, good luck with that. A few weeks ago I was on RPG Table Online to spectate a 4E level 8 encounter. 5man party vs 4 cultists and 1 dark priest. Took 1 hour, no interruptions. (It was the first normal encounter)
I just logged out of CO. It looked pretty packed to me. Admittedly the demise of CoX probably didn't hurt CO.
It's not, compared to say, STO or the heyday of CO no, it's pretty thin. The death of CoX didn't help very much. [I'm an extremely regular player in CO, 30+ hours a week since Beta so I know what I'm talking about.]
The slow chocking of content since F2P is probably the reason. Also the dropping of support for the PvP crowd and total lack of support for the RP community also saw players who replayed the existing content to death started leaving for other games.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
A leader of The Blackwatch Defenders
And about your "lengthen combat into a more realistic duration compared to PnP" I'm not even sure what you mean, if you want to CHANGE it from PnP then you're not translating it, so that's actually what I was talking about, if you want to keep the length of Fourth Edition PnP fights the same as in an Action RPG, LOL, good luck with that. A few weeks ago I was on RPG Table Online to spectate a 4E level 8 encounter. 5man party vs 4 cultists and 1 dark priest. Took 1 hour, no interruptions. (It was the first normal encounter)
Believe me, I know a single encounter can take an hour in PnP. Let me see if I can explain it a bit.
Imagine a very strict time oriented DM. For this DM a "turn" is exactly a minute.
All parties roll d20 "initiative" and each initiative roll is multiplied by 3 secs to see where in the 1-minute "turn" they can begin.
Let's say Fred (fighter) goes at 15s, Molly (mage) goes at 33s, and Chad (cleric) goes at 45s.
Fred has trouble "getting his sword out of it's scabbard" (finding his equipped weapon bonuses on his character sheet) and "delays" (another 4e mechanic) until 20s and then swings doing damage, etc. Molly goes at 33s, and Chad goes at 45s.
Next turn (minute) comes up.
Fred is now at 20s, Molly at 33s, and Chad at 45s.
Fred is busy looking at his powers for different options and misses his 20s time -- time continues on and Molly, and Chad use their at-will actions, but Molly's a little slow and goes at 35s. So, she effectively delayed and can't go again next turn until 35s.
If we declare the "at-will" cooldown is 1 turn (1 minute in this case) this is still following D&D 4e mechanics, only when you click (the very first click) determines where in the turn you go and the minimum at-will/power/daily "cooldown" is the duration of a turn.
Now speed this up so that a "turn" is 1 second. If you don't "click" for press your action button as soon as your cooldown runs out, you are merely delaying until you do. The turns are free to pass you by.
1 second "turns" sounds pretty action oriented to me -- while still maintaining 4e rules.
Heck, go down to half-second "turns" or even faster - 4e mechanics still work.
Oh yeah, as far as bumping up HPs to "lengthen" the combat, I was thinking basically that in PnP an encounter is typically over with maybe 5 or 6 (sometimes more, sometimes less) "good" solid hits from PCs. If "turns" are streaming by un-pausing at a rate of 1 turn/sec, then combat in an action "timed" encounter would be over in mere seconds. But, if you scale all HPs by say 100, then that's going to be much more fun in an action oriented pace.
What about it makes it 4e for you?
The fact that it has 6 familiarly named stats Str/Dex/Int/Wis/Con/Cha (that don't seem to have any sort of major effect on gameplay)?
Maybe because the "class" names are identical to Paragon paths?
Maybe the powers have the same name as 4e powers (and "similar" effects)?
Well, all that and theres set skills ('powers') to choose from as you lvl (alot less per class, since they are funneling you, but its there), and theres 'minions' (You know, the cluster of real weak guys next to every basic enemy).
I mean, you also gotta take into account its a transition into a game, so not everything can be like PnP. It would be easy if it was a single player game (or a small-time multiplayer, like Diablo or Neverwinter Nights).
I have a long history with Dungeons and Dragons computer games.
WALL OF TEXT SNIPPY
I hope I can have a long future with Dungeons and Dragons computer games too.
This game is the most welcomed breathe of fresh air I've seen in several years. Having played nearly every MMO since M59 and MUDs for several years before that... this game delivered (based on a beta 1 no less) exactly what I expected from a Neverwinter title and then some.
Of course all the people that entered the MMO landscape ala Warcraft and weren't around for the old school AD&D titles won't understand any of this, at least not until its released.
Maybe this is a silver lining.. if all these arcade-style Wow-ish type PVP-hungry people don't like it maybe we'll end up with a true AD&D "nerd" playerbase and have significantly less problems in game. Less botting. Less farmers.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Play the beta, give detailed feedback. Watch the changes
Don't play the game, give no feedback, don't complain when your ideas are "ignored."
Play the beta, give detailed feedback. Watch the changes
Don't play the game, give no feedback, don't complain when your ideas are "ignored."
Simple.
Having been involved with a few Cryptic betas, please allow a much more accurate representation:
"Play the beta, give detailed feedback. Watch no changes occur.
Don't play the beta, give no feedback, offer to buy something on the C-store, watch it appear on the C-store years before game content promised before launch ever shows up after the game goes live."
This game is the most welcomed breathe of fresh air I've seen in several years. Having played nearly every MMO since M59 and MUDs for several years before that... this game delivered (based on a beta 1 no less) exactly what I expected from a Neverwinter title and then some.
Of course all the people that entered the MMO landscape ala Warcraft and weren't around for the old school AD&D titles won't understand any of this, at least not until its released.
Maybe this is a silver lining.. if all these arcade-style Wow-ish type PVP-hungry people don't like it maybe we'll end up with a true AD&D "nerd" playerbase and have significantly less problems in game. Less botting. Less farmers.
bad propaganda
no argumentation
attacking the people and not what they say
Most of the disappointed people here are exactly the opposite of what you pretend they are. The are true AD&D "nerd" playerbase, and were waiting for a mmo more respectfull of the logo d&d and the neverwinter name.
And let me say that I firmly believe that most of the people that enjoy this game are manga generation console player, and will leave it as soon as a new blockbuster pops out (teso, archeage, black desert online, etc.)
just for the fun, I'll change a few words and say exactly the opposite as you :
This game is not the most welcomed breathe of fresh air I've seen in several years. Having played nearly every MMO since M59 and MUDs for several years before that... this game doesn't delivered (based on a beta 1 no less) what I expected from a Neverwinter title and then some.
Of course all the people that entered the MMO landscape ala Warcraft and weren't around for the old school AD&D titles won't understand any of this critics.
Maybe this is a silver lining.. if all these arcade-style Wow-ish type PVP-hungry people like it, maybe we won't end up with a true AD&D "nerd" playerbase and will have significantly problems in game. More botting and farmers.
The original post reads like a pessimist's manifesto.
It makes no sense for a software company to act on speculative things like this.
D&D is about having fun with your friends a fantasy story setting. If you don't like Cryptic's story, make your own with the foundry. If you don't have time to make your own, check out someone else's story - there should be loads of foundry options out there and based on my testing last weekend there are quite a few very creative alpha testers - just imagine when many more people add their ideas.
Over-analyzing everything without playing it is the MMO equivalent of rules lawyering. Make changes to please one person and you make someone else unhappy. Just have fun and give your feedback to Cryptic. Play don't debate on theory of concepts. Or decide it's doomed from the start and don't play it. But please don't suck the fun away from other people by posting such nonsense.
Done with this thread
As someone who played the game - awesome job Cryptic. Please focus on things posted by the players. Thank you.
Comments
How do you know there are no evil deities? I am pretty sure they're just not selectable for characters due to story progression reasons.
There are tons of evil deities in this game. However, just as the 4e core books recommend players not be allowed to serve them, this game in turn disallows it. PnP campaigns have the luxury of a DM making decisions; video games have rules.
The reason "nobody has said much about [this] now" is because your assertion isn't true.
Keep Calm and Kill Orcs.
"Holy trinity" is pretty much a staple of the MMO in general, except for GW2 and there is plenty of complaints about it lacking this feature. Even in pnp the generic set up for adventures was the same, fighter/meat shield alternative, cleric/someone with ability to heal the hurt and buff the group, wizard/ranger/rogue with trap detection/disable and unlocking ability and some form of cc. What you can alternately say here is that WoW and every other MMO out there got their basic design ideas from D&D, not the other way around.
Trickster Rogue doesn't have a combo mechanic.
"war charge" I assume is Warrior's Charge, which is not exclusive to WoW and having a charge/leap/bull rush/gap closer was in D&D rules before WoW.
I will also assume that the "etc" was placed there because you lack anything else to compare, which I am sure will be shot down just like the rest of the misinformed idiocy you continue to spew forth.
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
I stand corrected, then. And hiding behind an actual 4e rule is cheap, imho. Anything that limits the creativity of a player is a bad thing in an MMORPG. THAT is fact. I really dislike not being able to make the choice for myself.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Well My thoughts on the OP:
1. I did not pay attention to the damage numbers at all. I was too engaged in having fun in combat to pay attention to it. Numbers are irrelevant as everything is scaled in some way so who cares if it is 10 or 100 or 10000000 per blow? How many licks did it take to get to the tootsie roll center? That is what matters, not how many HP damage each lick did.
2. DDO has roughly 5 levels per level. Every increment of a level you get something (IE Enhancements) until you peg out the last bubble (IE 5th sub level). What Cryptic did was basically go ahead and call them levels. I personally do not have an issue with that.
3. Are we talking about skills? Like Traps, arcane, dungeoneering, etc.? Because - yeah I wish they would actually have those available to learn like in PnP. I am not too keen on the potion/item granting temporary skill but I will make sure to carry <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> loads of those items to farm materials. I can *mostly* ignore that. YES I would prefer better, but can live with it not being there.
Are we talking about feats? I sure would like to be able to chose me some feats!
Or are we talking about Class Powers/Abilities? I will address that with item 7.
4. High Pings have always struck me as a bad thing with the active combat. I hope they have data on it and how bad it really will be. I have friends in DDO from around the world and would love to play NW with them, but they have some bad pings at times.
5. Not dark enough. I agree! We should totally have to use Torches in some undeground areas! DDO Rainbow in the dark FTW! It should be pitch black if you do not have darkvision!
6. This is a non issue to me as it is a compromize between Computer and PnP. I remember having DDO players talk about how it would be cool to be able to actually block blows by timing, etc. Well here we go!
7. The way classes work right now is my Biggest complaint. It is almost a game breaker to me. I feel like we are handed pregenerated characters the way things are now. When I mentioned my beta play in DDO last night to my guildies they all were very interested UNTIL the template was mentioned. They were not very thrilled by it. I HOPE that they include a free form option (store purchase is fine to me) where you can buy a Freefrom Rogue, Freeform Fighter, etc. and actually pick and choose powers/feats/skills. That would be a great solution for me.
I have played P&P version and computer versions of D&D games almost, well my whole life (23 years). And I have to say that D&D is not for PC, not in it's original form.
But on NWO I think they might pull it since it clearly tries not to be that turn based die rolling RPG type that most of the D&D tryouts have been. It's more action oriented and the skills are similiar to P&P version of themselves, but clearly reworked to serve the game.
So to the list:
1. Huge damage numbers.
I don't think it's going to be problem after a while.
You will probably just start to ignore them after you figure out the damage system.
2. Level cap 60
Since the skills and mechanics are reworked for the game, the E4 ideal 30lvl cap won't affect too much I think. And the level cap in other games always meant that now it's just the items that you are after etc. But in this game they actually could have skill cap that depends from the player not the system.
3. Reworked skills not actually D&D rules any more.
As said before, don't think it's going to be a problem. If you know about E4 rules, you can somewhat already know what kind of a skill it will be and so on. After all the game is not trying to be P&P on 3D graphics.
4. Action combat but no talk about why this won't be bad for high pings.
In any game high ping is an issue. FPS games, RTS and so on. Only turn based games won't be suffering so much of this problem. Thank god that we don't live in 256kb/s time anymore.
5. Not Dark enough.
Original content might not be, but since there is a foundry there is a way.
6. Active Blocking is not in D&D.
As I mentioned before ---
7. Classes seem like templates.
Dun Dun duu...yeah well, they are keeping the classes simple, not sure about that one is it good or bad, just hope there is room to customize the build enough to really have different play styles.
Wow you sure do think highly about your two cents there "wise man". I sure hope you feel vindicated in life assuming you're the wise one that told us all we were fools. We'll all be sure to erect statues in your honor. I'll be enjoying this game just as I did CO because I enjoyed those systems. Your favorite game seems to be screaming at the tide for fun.
The only person I care to convince is myself, the game has already passed the development changes. Coulda/shoulda/woulda isn't going to help what has been produced. It isn't YOUR game, so don't play it, as it isn't harming you or your fragile sensibilities.
It's both of our opinions. They aren't wrong, just different. Get over yourself, you've spend 3 MONTHS, whining about this game, just look at your forum post history. Either way it isn't helping the feedback to this game.
As do you.
The real problem is, D&D fanatics HATE 4ed. Yes, this isnt the D&D YOU love. This is the recent adaptation that was ment to mimick an MMO... and oh look, they succeeded.
Like it, or not, this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is here to stay. lol
Not really, real D&D players understand that while 4E might not be the best one it IS the best one to use in a video game. The problem is there is none in this one
What about it makes it 4e for you?
The fact that it has 6 familiarly named stats Str/Dex/Int/Wis/Con/Cha (that don't seem to have any sort of major effect on gameplay)?
Maybe because the "class" names are identical to Paragon paths?
Maybe the powers have the same name as 4e powers (and "similar" effects)?
Um, I don't hate 4e - I actually DM it currently. And, yes, 4e was meant(sp) to mimick an MMO to make it much, much easier to computerize. And WHO exactly succeeded? WotC did - but Cryptic merely succeeded in putting medieval window dressing and costumes on Champions Online combat.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
2) Not an issue
3) From PnP to Action MMORPG. Anyone with realistic expectations saw this coming, really.
4) This could be a valid concern, but we'll just have to wait and see for release before judging.
5) This is just a matter of taste. Make "dark" foundry missions if you find the rest is not dark enough.
6) Since this is an action game, we should be thankful there's active blocking instead of leaving it to some dice roll or stat stacking.
7) This is a valid concern
i don't want to help the feedback of this game, I want this forum to be something else than a fanboys congratulations party.
Lots of people are going to visit this forum to make up their mind about the game and the possibility of buying a pack, and they deserve at least some differents points of views.
Since I've been waiting for this game for many years, you can understand how big is my disappointment, and, since the recent history of the mmo shown that the random heroic fantasy themeparks are likely to fail, plus the cryptic previous fails, i can say with not much risks to be wrong that this game will be a fail.
And, believe it or not, it is a waste, because with such a licence, half the way was made to success...
Normally I would agree with you if this was a traditional P2P MMORPG, but this one is F2P, you don't have to buy the box to try this out for an extended period of time (I realize that these type of games require more time than the usual "1 week free trial, level locked"). Download the client once it releases, see how it goes, and if you don't like it uninstall.
If you're disappointed about following the game for so long and not having your expectations realized (we have to see how realistic those were to begin with... asking for a full translation of PnP rules, like the OP mentioned, to an Action MMORPG is not realistic) it's a pity, but such things happen all the time in life for anyone about anything, you can't really do anything about it.
Everyone who keeps slinging this "unrealistic" line basically doesn't know WTF they are talking about or are simply listening to poor developer excuses. I've been a software developer/architect for 35 years and been playing D&D since the release of the "Red Box." D&D 4e was designed with computer adaptation in mind. I can even see how to translate "turn-based" into action based. You could even "scale" HP's and damage by different constant values to lengthen combat into a more realistic duration compared to PnP.
It's "unrealistic" is bogus.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
I never said a computer adaptation of DnD 4E was unrealistic. You could make a very well "translated" tactical rpg (Like Vandal Hearts for example), but not an action mmorpg. Get over it. The genre is different and once you change the genre, some rules have to go out of the window, or they just keep the name but change them entirely.
Take for example Initiative, in PnP it means the order in which character take action during the turn, whatever it is in Neverwinter (I don't even know if it's there), it cannot be a translation of the PnP rule. It could be a cooldown reducer or whatever, but it simply can't be the same as the PnP, because the order in which characters take action is entirely up to player's reflexes. (not the saving throw
And about your "lengthen combat into a more realistic duration compared to PnP" I'm not even sure what you mean, if you want to CHANGE it from PnP then you're not translating it, so that's actually what I was talking about, if you want to keep the length of Fourth Edition PnP fights the same as in an Action RPG, LOL, good luck with that. A few weeks ago I was on RPG Table Online to spectate a 4E level 8 encounter. 5man party vs 4 cultists and 1 dark priest. Took 1 hour, no interruptions. (It was the first normal encounter)
It's not, compared to say, STO or the heyday of CO no, it's pretty thin. The death of CoX didn't help very much. [I'm an extremely regular player in CO, 30+ hours a week since Beta so I know what I'm talking about.]
The slow chocking of content since F2P is probably the reason. Also the dropping of support for the PvP crowd and total lack of support for the RP community also saw players who replayed the existing content to death started leaving for other games.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
A leader of The Blackwatch Defenders
Believe me, I know a single encounter can take an hour in PnP. Let me see if I can explain it a bit.
Imagine a very strict time oriented DM. For this DM a "turn" is exactly a minute.
All parties roll d20 "initiative" and each initiative roll is multiplied by 3 secs to see where in the 1-minute "turn" they can begin.
Let's say Fred (fighter) goes at 15s, Molly (mage) goes at 33s, and Chad (cleric) goes at 45s.
Fred has trouble "getting his sword out of it's scabbard" (finding his equipped weapon bonuses on his character sheet) and "delays" (another 4e mechanic) until 20s and then swings doing damage, etc. Molly goes at 33s, and Chad goes at 45s.
Next turn (minute) comes up.
Fred is now at 20s, Molly at 33s, and Chad at 45s.
Fred is busy looking at his powers for different options and misses his 20s time -- time continues on and Molly, and Chad use their at-will actions, but Molly's a little slow and goes at 35s. So, she effectively delayed and can't go again next turn until 35s.
If we declare the "at-will" cooldown is 1 turn (1 minute in this case) this is still following D&D 4e mechanics, only when you click (the very first click) determines where in the turn you go and the minimum at-will/power/daily "cooldown" is the duration of a turn.
Now speed this up so that a "turn" is 1 second. If you don't "click" for press your action button as soon as your cooldown runs out, you are merely delaying until you do. The turns are free to pass you by.
1 second "turns" sounds pretty action oriented to me -- while still maintaining 4e rules.
Heck, go down to half-second "turns" or even faster - 4e mechanics still work.
Oh yeah, as far as bumping up HPs to "lengthen" the combat, I was thinking basically that in PnP an encounter is typically over with maybe 5 or 6 (sometimes more, sometimes less) "good" solid hits from PCs. If "turns" are streaming by un-pausing at a rate of 1 turn/sec, then combat in an action "timed" encounter would be over in mere seconds. But, if you scale all HPs by say 100, then that's going to be much more fun in an action oriented pace.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Well, all that and theres set skills ('powers') to choose from as you lvl (alot less per class, since they are funneling you, but its there), and theres 'minions' (You know, the cluster of real weak guys next to every basic enemy).
I mean, you also gotta take into account its a transition into a game, so not everything can be like PnP. It would be easy if it was a single player game (or a small-time multiplayer, like Diablo or Neverwinter Nights).
This game is the most welcomed breathe of fresh air I've seen in several years. Having played nearly every MMO since M59 and MUDs for several years before that... this game delivered (based on a beta 1 no less) exactly what I expected from a Neverwinter title and then some.
Of course all the people that entered the MMO landscape ala Warcraft and weren't around for the old school AD&D titles won't understand any of this, at least not until its released.
Maybe this is a silver lining.. if all these arcade-style Wow-ish type PVP-hungry people don't like it maybe we'll end up with a true AD&D "nerd" playerbase and have significantly less problems in game. Less botting. Less farmers.
Don't play the game, give no feedback, don't complain when your ideas are "ignored."
Simple.
Having been involved with a few Cryptic betas, please allow a much more accurate representation:
"Play the beta, give detailed feedback. Watch no changes occur.
Don't play the beta, give no feedback, offer to buy something on the C-store, watch it appear on the C-store years before game content promised before launch ever shows up after the game goes live."
bad propaganda
no argumentation
attacking the people and not what they say
Most of the disappointed people here are exactly the opposite of what you pretend they are. The are true AD&D "nerd" playerbase, and were waiting for a mmo more respectfull of the logo d&d and the neverwinter name.
And let me say that I firmly believe that most of the people that enjoy this game are manga generation console player, and will leave it as soon as a new blockbuster pops out (teso, archeage, black desert online, etc.)
just for the fun, I'll change a few words and say exactly the opposite as you :
This game is not the most welcomed breathe of fresh air I've seen in several years. Having played nearly every MMO since M59 and MUDs for several years before that... this game doesn't delivered (based on a beta 1 no less) what I expected from a Neverwinter title and then some.
Of course all the people that entered the MMO landscape ala Warcraft and weren't around for the old school AD&D titles won't understand any of this critics.
Maybe this is a silver lining.. if all these arcade-style Wow-ish type PVP-hungry people like it, maybe we won't end up with a true AD&D "nerd" playerbase and will have significantly problems in game. More botting and farmers.
It makes no sense for a software company to act on speculative things like this.
D&D is about having fun with your friends a fantasy story setting. If you don't like Cryptic's story, make your own with the foundry. If you don't have time to make your own, check out someone else's story - there should be loads of foundry options out there and based on my testing last weekend there are quite a few very creative alpha testers - just imagine when many more people add their ideas.
Over-analyzing everything without playing it is the MMO equivalent of rules lawyering. Make changes to please one person and you make someone else unhappy. Just have fun and give your feedback to Cryptic. Play don't debate on theory of concepts. Or decide it's doomed from the start and don't play it. But please don't suck the fun away from other people by posting such nonsense.
Done with this thread
As someone who played the game - awesome job Cryptic. Please focus on things posted by the players. Thank you.