The point to above post was to gather arguments against the best plausible defense against lockboxes. Seeing as to how we didn't get any arguments against that thinking yet, I will myself put forth some points.
- Even when lockboxes are optional, so is gambling in real life. But gambling is controlled. This is because it exploits certain behavior to invest in a loss-making venture. It is addictive too, which means that many people trying it for recreation may not find themselves unable to leave it making it "not really optional" for them.
- Your number of random drops and their quality is not controlled by how much money you invest in them unlike lockboxes.
Number of keys relate directly to amount of money invested and number of chances at loot. Hence buying the keys is the same as buying lockboxes.
p.s. yeah, just talking to myself *sigh*
That's what I said here starting in paragraph four.
Even when lockboxes are optional, so is gambling in real life. But gambling is controlled. This is because it exploits certain behavior to invest in a loss-making venture. It is addictive too, which means that many people trying it for recreation may not find themselves unable to leave it making it "not really optional" for them.
This is really the most important thing for all of you to be considering when responding.
Just because current laws do not prohibit activities of online gaming doesn't it mean it shouldn't or won't in the future.
As I said pages back the current legal system has not caught up with online trade and how to mandate it. There wouldn't be any regulations if nobody questioned the morality of actions in the world.
And since lockboxes follow every definition of gambling (following the acceptance that virtual products have value) why should the laws of online trade be any different than physical trade?
It's up to the parents to make sure that their kids aren't gambling?
Parents are not responsible for their children partaking in gambling activities unless they directly permit them to gamble. The responsibility lies with the gambling distributors.
Parents don't comprehend items such as lockboxes unless they themselves play video games. To them video games aren't maliciously designed and an occasional $10 isn't something a parent would immediately question...and arguably shouldn't have to.
In addition credit cards are not the only method of online sales. Visa Gift Cards are readily available as well as SMS, Paypal and several Mail in Services in which kids can easily, in this day in age, gain access to virtual payments.
The final important fact which is extremely important to remember is that most, if not every, State in the United States legally permit people to work at fourteen years and older. It's extremely likely for children to get their own bank account around fourteen years old as well as their own cash-flow without the need to ask their parents permission to buy anything.
At this age parents should watch, advise and to an extent control the child's spending but this is the age I am most concerned about. This is the age when they are minors and do not have to go directly through their parents in order to spend money on games.
And 14-18 is in no way "too young" to play MMO's. In fact that's the main audience in most games.
Its sad that people think they can actually reason with PW and change their minds about this when it is so obvious they cant. PW stands to gain huge amounts of money from lock boxes, and there is no comparable substitute for that same amount of money that they can earn by not having them.
As far as the legality of gambling and lock boxes, that point is entirely moot since PW's other game's already have them, therefore they have obviously already considered any legal implications.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This is really the most important thing for all of you to be considering when responding.
Just because current laws do not prohibit activities of online gaming doesn't it mean it shouldn't or won't in the future.
As I said pages back the current legal system has not caught up with online trade and how to mandate it. There wouldn't be any regulations if nobody questioned the morality of actions in the world.
And since lockboxes follow every definition of gambling (following the acceptance that virtual products have value) why should the laws of online trade be any different than physical trade?
It's up to the parents to make sure that their kids aren't gambling?
Parents are not responsible for their children partaking in gambling activities unless they directly permit them to gamble. The responsibility lies with the gambling distributors. Parents don't comprehend items such as lockboxes unless they themselves play video games. To them video games aren't maliciously designed and an occasional $10 isn't something a parent would immediately question...and arguably shouldn't have to. In addition credit cards are not the only method of online sales. Visa Gift Cards are readily available as well as SMS, Paypal and several Mail in Services in which kids can easily, in this day in age, gain access to virtual payments.
The final important fact which is extremely important to remember is that most, if not every, State in the United States legally permit people to work at fourteen years and older. It's extremely likely for children to get their own bank account around fourteen years old as well as their own cash-flow without the need to ask their parents permission to buy anything. At this age parents should watch, advise and to an extent control the child's spending but this is the age I am most concerned about. This is the age when they are minors and do not have to go directly through their parents in order to spend money on games. And 14-18 is in no way "too young" to play MMO's. In fact that's the main audience in most games.
...
In addition credit cards are not the only method of online sales. Visa Gift Cards are readily available as well as SMS, Paypal and several Mail in Services in which kids can easily, in this day in age, gain access to virtual payments.
...
You read my mind there. I just had a look at various methods to buy zen and just came here to post it but I see you already tackled it (specifically buying cash cards from simple shops lets you get zen credit).
Also very important points raised as truth highlighted.
From Zen website here:- Cash, Prepaid Cards and Vouchers
PWE Prepaid Card
Currently only available in the United States and Canada.
Playspan
PayByCash is now Playspan!
All regions.
Rixty
Currently only available in the United States.
PaySafeCard
Currently only available in Europe.
Ultimate Game Card
Currently only available in the United States and Canada.
Ukash
Currently only available in Australia.
MOLePoints
Currently available in Southeast Asia and Australia
Boleto Banc?rio
Currently only available in Brazil.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You read my mind there. I just had a look at various methods to buy zen and just came here to post it but I see you already tackled it (specifically buying cash cards from simple shops lets you get zen credit).
Also very important points raised as truth highlighted.
Its sad that people think they can actually reason with PW and change their minds about this when it is so obvious they cant. PW stands to gain huge amounts of money from lock boxes, and there is no comparable substitute for that same amount of money that they can earn by not having them.
As far as the legality of gambling and lock boxes, that point is entirely moot since PW's other game's already have them, therefore they have obviously already considered any legal implications.
This thread voices concerns and the most sincere requests, with reasoning, for not adding such content but we would be truly naive if we didn't expect them to be added regardless of what we say.
Most every person who has posted comments against lockboxes has admitted that truth in their first comment.
That doesn't mean they're not allowed to voice their frustrations as long as they're not degrading other's opinions or concerns.
You read my mind there. I just had a look at various methods to buy zen and just came here to post it but I see you already tackled it (specifically buying cash cards from simple shops lets you get zen credit).
Also very important points raised as truth highlighted.
Looking at that list, I do not see a single one of those methods that a child could access without either stealing their parents money/CC information or buying it with their own money. Both of those issues are not things the game companies are responsible for, nor do any game companies suggest that children do these things.
All of this of course also ignores that you have to have an account to buy zen, if you're a parent you shouldn't be allowing your children to have an account without your permission. If you are concerned about your child's activities online you need to monitor them. I am sorry I believe it is every parents responsibility to keep track of their child's activities. I would never let a child under 15 play a game like NW or STO. There is too much about the experience that I cannot control. I would never let me child have complete access to my methods of payment either. I don't even believe that children under 15 should be on the internet very often, and almost never without parental supervision.
Lockboxes are lockboxes, I dislike them very much, but concerns about children are not realistic concerns for PWE or any other gaming company because they are legally protected. The legal status of things like lockboxes may change in the future, but unless the changes are widespread enough I do not see companies like PWE changing their tactics.
If you don't want to see lockboxes in NW then threaten PWE with your wallets and not nebulous legal theory that will be unlikely to change their practices. There are many great reasons to disagree with the use of lockboxes and plenty of ways to argue they can make this money in other ways without having to resort to protecting children from the practices of a game company who explicitly states that you must have a parents permission and supervision to play their game if you are under the age of 18. In fact, based on PWE's terms of service you shouldn't even have an account under the age of 13.
None of this is direct at anyone poster, this is more directed at the argument that this lockbox practices is targeted at children. This is simply not true when the ToS for these games don't want children under 13 playing. It is not PWE's responsibility to make sure you read the EULA or that your children are doing what you want them too. If we start to believe that it is PWE's job to play parental supervisor we end up with a game that will be targeted towards children, not what I would like to see from this game. But hey it'd be great to get more kids into DnD I suppose.
This thread voices concerns and the most sincere requests, with reasoning, for not adding such content but we would be truly naive if we didn't expect them to be added regardless of what we say.
Most every person who has posted comments against lockboxes has admitted that truth in their first comment.
That doesn't mean they're not allowed to voice their frustrations as long as they're not degrading other's opinions or concerns.
I agree. As long as people are honest with themselves that no amount of begging or pleading will actually accomplish anything, then its all in good "fun". But if someone actually deludes themselves into believing that they can persuade PW not to sell lock boxes, then they would be setting themselves up for disappointment.
Looking at that list, I do not see a single one of those methods that a child could access without either stealing their parents money/CC information or buying it with their own money. ...
That was in response to some arguments put forth before that as you"must" have credit card which will provide a way to check on date of birth for the person, it means anyone younger can't have access.
Cash cards show that providing a proof of date of birth is not necessary to indulge in this practice of lockboxes which may be a form of gambling.
If you don't want to see lockboxes in NW then threaten PWE with your wallets and not nebulous legal theory that will be unlikely to change their practices.
I don't see any reason not to explore any possible argument. It is public discussion afterall. And I believe that ethics for any company are more important than profits - if only to save face. Ethics and values are necessary for long term. All big companies stress on the values and ethics(mission vision etc.). Only small time companies looking for short term profits ignore them.
Also its a discussion, not a motion or mandate that we can use to threaten. We are simply exploring various arguments here. If it was a petition or something it won't have been under discussion section.
Looking at that list, I do not see a single one of those methods that a child could access without either stealing their parents money/CC information or buying it with their own money. Both of those issues are not things the game companies are responsible for, nor do any game companies suggest that children do these things.
All of this of course also ignores that you have to have an account to buy zen, if you're a parent you shouldn't be allowing your children to have an account without your permission. If you are concerned about your child's activities online you need to monitor them. I am sorry I believe it is every parents responsibility to keep track of their child's activities. I would never let a child under 15 play a game like NW or STO. There is too much about the experience that I cannot control. I would never let me child have complete access to my methods of payment either. I don't even believe that children under 15 should be on the internet very often, and almost never without parental supervision.
Lockboxes are lockboxes, I dislike them very much, but concerns about children are not realistic concerns for PWE or any other gaming company because they are legally protected. The legal status of things like lockboxes may change in the future, but unless the changes are widespread enough I do not see companies like PWE changing their tactics.
If you don't want to see lockboxes in NW then threaten PWE with your wallets and not nebulous legal theory that will be unlikely to change their practices. There are many great reasons to disagree with the use of lockboxes and plenty of ways to argue they can make this money in other ways without having to resort to protecting children from the practices of a game company who explicitly states that you must have a parents permission and supervision to play their game if you are under the age of 18. In fact, based on PWE's terms of service you shouldn't even have an account under the age of 13.
None of this is direct at anyone poster, this is more directed at the argument that this lockbox practices is targeted at children. This is simply not true when the ToS for these games don't want children under 13 playing. It is not PWE's responsibility to make sure you read the EULA or that your children are doing what you want them too. If we start to believe that it is PWE's job to play parental supervisor we end up with a game that will be targeted towards children, not what I would like to see from this game. But hey it'd be great to get more kids into DnD I suppose.
Pretty sure you don't have to be 18 to buy them. They are available widely in canada, I can even buy them at a pharmacy.
As for the argument but it's not against the law or it's not PWE responsibility. That maybe can be argued but we can also argue they are purposely playing in a grey area when it comes to these.
We can instead of saying, "aww shucks, don't use em if your don't like em or aww shucks, we can't win so lets not fight it.."
We can talk, argue, scream and tell everyone what we think and FIGHT against it so that LAWS are eventually made to correct a situation that we feel is wrong and exploitative. Just like what happened about violence in video games and how it led to the ESRB rating system.
Take out the keys and make lockboxes drop random cs items and I won't have a problem with it but as soon as you add a "key", that is required to "use" the boxes, that costs real money then I firmly believe they become a lottery ticket and as such need to follow any laws relating to such lottery type gambling laws.
Just because these are not available physically in your local shop but accessible online in a mmo does not change anything to me.
As to the it doesn't have real value argument,
what a farce these companies invested in these games, make us agree to eulas that state we don't own our accounts etc etc and the fact that items are sold in item shops for real money beg to differ.
Like has been said repeatedly laws just need to catch up with the reality of the situation, meanwhile i will keep arguing against it.
My ancestors didn't fight the good fight so I would just roll over and take it, when things become difficult or unpopular, when I feel something is bad for my community be that online or in real life.
Btw this isn't an attack at anyone either like varrvarr has stated.
Looking at that list, I do not see a single one of those methods that a child could access without either stealing their parents money/CC information or buying it with their own money. Both of those issues are not things the game companies are responsible for, nor do any game companies suggest that children do these things.
Just to add on to what Gillrmn said,
You can not assume that past fourteen kids are stealing money from their parents. As I said, parents should advise and in some cases control, not dictate, money the children earn themselves. Talk to any specialist in this field and they'll tell you how important it is to let kids have lee-way with their own money.
Maybe Truth will have a link to some research paper but I went through all of this when growing up. My parents and grandparents were told many times to stop, back up and let me make my own mistakes because if I didn't then when I get out into the real world I would fall flat on my face.
I started working at 15 years old and had my own bank account which could have easily been linked to a Paypal Account if I so desired. I tended to go for the Visa Gift Card option though even until I was 20 simply because I never applied for a credit card.
And I assure you my parents tried to keep tabs on what I was doing with my money as well as online but that was more than an impossible task. I'm not sure if you have kids or how old they are, but if you assume you're keeping a close eye on them I can guarantee if they are 13+ you're not watching them half as close as you think you are.
The fact of the matter, for all your parents are responsible argument, is that if a kid walked in with a stolen credit card and/or money into my store I would be held liable for the sale of lottery tickets to a minor. Not the parents.
If the parents stand next to them and say it's alright for me to sell their children lottery tickets I am held responsible.
The responsibility of gambling sales always reverts to the retailer. In order to argue parents should be responsible for 100% of their children's actions then you must first state why the online laws should have different regulations than physical trade laws.
EDIT -
As to the it does have real value argument,
what a farce these companies invested in these games, make us agree to eulas that state we don't own our accounts etc etc and the fact that items are sold in item shops for real money beg to differ.
Like has been said repeatedly laws just need to catch up with the reality of the situation, meanwhile i will keep arguing against it.
Been saying this for years. The governments tend to view games as games; no more, no less. They don't understand that there's a personal vestment in in-game items and true online economies which result in the same exact behaviors in game as the real world.
They view things from a 20th century standpoint and think of online content as nothing more than little picture icons.
The dutch made leaps and bounds years ago by accepting the realization that those picture icons represented time and energy...it's only a matter of time before the rest of the world catches up.
P.S. I am really glad to see a NL Dane say the NL Government is taking the time to consider putting trade restrictions on such content.
I agree. As long as people are honest with themselves that no amount of begging or pleading will actually accomplish anything, then its all in good "fun". But if someone actually deludes themselves into believing that they can persuade PW not to sell lock boxes, then they would be setting themselves up for disappointment.
Fighting against or expressing an opinion against something is a far cry from "pleading" or "begging"
In the same fashion because your not of the same opinion about our discussion doesn't make you a "wet noodle" or a "sheep"
Edit: btw ambisinisterr I fixed that part of the quote you have of me. The "does" should have been "doesn't". Sometimes it takes me awhile to make my posts readable lol.
P.S. I am really glad to see a NL Dane say the NL Government is taking the time to consider putting trade restrictions on such content.
Dane is danish = Denmark. Nl is dutch which is Netherlands. They are different countries. Though Dutch and Dane might be confusing as both start from D.
But if denmark passes a law, it will set a precedent for other european countries and they will bring in similar amendments soon. Most probably, the similar decision.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Just to add on to what Gillrmn said,
You can not assume that past fourteen kids are stealing money from their parents. As I said, parents should advise and in some cases control, not dictate, money the children earn themselves. Talk to any specialist in this field and they'll tell you how important it is to let kids have lee-way with their own money.
Maybe Truth will have a link to some research paper but I went through all of this when growing up. My parents and grandparents were told many times to stop, back up and let me make my own mistakes because if I didn't then when I get out into the real world I would fall flat on my face.
I started working at 15 years old and had my own bank account which could have easily been linked to a Paypal Account if I so desired. I tended to go for the Visa Gift Card option though even until I was 20 simply because I never applied for a credit card.
And I assure you my parents tried to keep tabs on what I was doing with my money as well as online but that was more than an impossible task. I'm not sure if you have kids or how old they are, but if you assume you're keeping a close eye on them I can guarantee if they are 13+ you're not watching them half as close as you think you are.
I'll make it more simple and list a compilation from moneytrail.net a site specifically made to teach about parents and kids access to kids' money. Part two of their two part article dealt with this exactly and it's going to suggest similar if not identical suggestions if they base this on the same academic experts. if you want to read the whole series there is a link to the first part in that article listing the access to money a kid to early teen can get.
But I cannot stress enough the time and experience for many teens is simply not developed yet let alone a 12 and under child. Lemme see if I can find a medium describing this between super academic and "brains for dummies,"... here we go,
MRI studies of the brain show that developmental processes tend to occur in the brain in a back to front pattern, explaining why the prefrontal cortex develops last. These studies have also found that teens have less white matter (myelin) in the frontal lobes of their brains when compared to adults, but this amount increases as the teen ages. With more myelin comes the growth of important brain connections, allowing for better flow of information between brain regions.4
This body of brain research data has led to the idea of ?frontalization,? whereby the prefrontal cortex gradually becomes able to oversee and regulate the behavioral responses initiated by the more primitive limbic structures.
MRI research has also revealed that during adolescence, white matter increases in the corpus callosum, the bundle of nerve fibers connecting the right and left hemispheres of the brain. This allows for enhanced communication between the hemispheres and enables a full array of analytic and creative strategies to be brought to bear in responding to the complex dilemmas that may arise in a young person?s life. Once again the role of experience is critical in developing the neural connectivity that allows for conscious cognitive control of the emotions and passions of adolescence. Teens who take risks in relatively safe situations exercise the circuitry and develop the skills to ?put on the brakes? in more dangerous situations.5 With an immature prefrontal cortex, even if teens understand that something is dangerous, they may still go ahead and engage in the risky behavior. Recognizing the asynchrony of development of the regions of the brain helps us to see adolescent risk-taking in a whole new light. This broadened view of risk-taking and the concept of self-regulation are explored in the next section.
So even if teens were told to not do something and seemed to have an understanding why, they would still do it in the "if won't affect me I'm young" dangers we've often seen. Kids literally may not even be developed enough to grasp this concept of "gambling risk, loss of funds, where the money comes from and what happens if you spend it all now."
Just to add on to what Gillrmn said,
You can not assume that past fourteen kids are stealing money from their parents. As I said, parents should advise and in some cases control, not dictate, money the children earn themselves. Talk to any specialist in this field and they'll tell you how important it is to let kids have lee-way with their own money.
Maybe Truth will have a link to some research paper but I went through all of this when growing up. My parents and grandparents were told many times to stop, back up and let me make my own mistakes because if I didn't then when I get out into the real world I would fall flat on my face.
I started working at 15 years old and had my own bank account which could have easily been linked to a Paypal Account if I so desired. I tended to go for the Visa Gift Card option though even until I was 20 simply because I never applied for a credit card.
And I assure you my parents tried to keep tabs on what I was doing with my money as well as online but that was more than an impossible task. I'm not sure if you have kids or how old they are, but if you assume you're keeping a close eye on them I can guarantee if they are 13+ you're not watching them half as close as you think you are.
The fact of the matter, for all your parents are responsible argument, is that if a kid walked in with a stolen credit card and/or money into my store I would be held liable for the sale of lottery tickets to a minor. Not the parents.
If the parents stand next to them and say it's alright for me to sell their children lottery tickets I am held responsible.
The responsibility of gambling sales always reverts to the retailer. In order to argue parents should be responsible for 100% of their children's actions then you must first state why the online laws should have different regulations than physical trade laws.
EDIT -
Been saying this for years. The governments tend to view games as games; no more, no less. They don't understand that there's a personal vestment in in-game items and true online economies which result in the same exact behaviors in game as the real world.
They view things from a 20th century standpoint and think of online content as nothing more than little picture icons.
The dutch made leaps and bounds years ago by accepting the realization that those picture icons represented time and energy...it's only a matter of time before the rest of the world catches up.
P.S. I am really glad to see a NL Dane say the NL Government is taking the time to consider putting trade restrictions on such content.
What a child (or underage teenager) does with their money is between them and their parents. If a kid has an income or an allowance and they spend it all on Zen for a video game, that is once again the parents' responsibility to correct the behavior not PWE's or any other gaming company. It isn't even the responsibility of the government to make the decision. It is an issue that is between child and parent.
As I said before if I had a child under 15 I wouldn't let them play a game like NW, or any other MMO for that matter. Any MMO has a game world with a great number of potential interactions that I do not agree with, some of them created by the game designers and some of them created by the other players. It is my responsibility to decide if my child of any age is mature enough to be exposed to things like Lockboxes or crazy RP cyber-sex orgies (yeah walked in on a few of those in EQ).
You want to get your message across to PWE, then tell them you won't buy their game if there are lockboxes in it. Let them know you mean business. That's the only way to get companies to change their tactics, is to convince them it is bad for profit.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
What a child (or underage teenager) does with their money is between them and their parents. If a kid has an income or an allowance and they spend it all on Zen for a video game, that is once again the parents' responsibility to correct the behavior not PWE's or any other gaming company. It isn't even the responsibility of the government to make the decision. It is an issue that is between child and parent.
And again, not according to the laws of gambling as they are.
The responsibility to prevent underage gambling always falls on the retailer.
Parents have to educate their kids on the risks but the laws dictate the retailer is responsible for any underage gambling to occur with or without parental consent.
P.S. Doh! My bad Gillrmn and thanks for the correction. But yeah without a doubt once one Eu Gov takes action the rest will follow suit.
What a child (or underage teenager) does with their money is between them and their parents. If a kid has an income or an allowance and they spend it all on Zen for a video game, that is once again the parents' responsibility to correct the behavior not PWE's or any other gaming company. It isn't even the responsibility of the government to make the decision. It is an issue that is between child and parent.
As I said before if I had a child under 15 I wouldn't let them play a game like NW, or any other MMO for that matter. Any MMO has a game world with a great number of potential interactions that I do not agree with, some of them created by the game designers and some of them created by the other players. It is my responsibility to decide if my child of any age is mature enough to be exposed to things like Lockboxes or crazy RP cyber-sex orgies (yeah walked in on a few of those in EQ).
You want to get your message across to PWE, then tell them you won't buy their game if there are lockboxes in it. Let them know you mean business. That's the only way to get companies to change their tactics, is to convince them it is bad for profit.
It's great what you say about IF you had a child under 15. The truth though is IF you INDEED did have a child you would know it takes a village to raise them.
Having rules and watching them is nice and all but you can't be watching them every second of everyday. If you live in a good neighborhood and your kid runs off and gets into some tomfoolery your neighbors won't just watch and say meh it's not my problem. They will tell the kids to knock it off or let you know what is going on.
If your in a bad neighborhood they think ah it's not my responsibility and then you end up with a "sunday special programming" based on a true story
We as a people form the government so what "we as a people" decide becomes what the governments become responsible for.
By your way of thinking why not take away the age limit on beer, cigarettes, gambling in casinos and lets legalize pot while at it.
I mean common it's the parents responsibility to raise em right isn't it ?
It's great that what you say about IF you had a child. the truth though is IF you INDEED did have a child you would know it takes a village to raise them.
Having rules and watching them is nice and all but you can't be watching them every second of everyday. If you live in a good neighborhood and you kid runs off and gets into some tomfoolery your neighbors won't just watch and say meh it's not my problem. They will tell the kids to knock it off or let you know what is going on.
If your in a bad neighborhood they think ah it's not my responsibility and then you end up with a "sunday special programming" based on a true story
We as a people form the government so what "we as a people" decide what is the governments responsibility.
By your way of thinking why not take away the age limit on beer, cigarettes, gambling in casinos and lets legalize pot while at it.
I mean common it's the parents responsibility to raise em right isn't it ?
If I have a kid or not is actually irrelevant. I will not say one way or another if I do have a kid. What I wrote was if I had a child under 15. I wrote that specifically because we are discussing MMO's.
See the village analogy doesn't work for me here for two reasons. First, what a child does on the internet is not the same thing as what a child does in one's neighborhood. You see a neighborhood has an interest in making sure certain moral codes are agreed upon and lived up to. The internet and even an MMO community can never be that homogenic. There are too many diverse groups to expect that an MMO community would be able to "raise" a child.
Second, unless specifically asked to do so most neighbors are not going to monitor what my child does in side the home. If my child goes out to play before they have finished their homework, should I expect my neighbors to know this and send my kid home? What if I have a rather active child and I find they do better on their school work if they have gone out to play before they do it, should I then expect my neighbors to be privy to all of this? Certainly some neighbors might be friends of the family as well and know these things, but I do not expect my entire community to know the inner workings of my family dynamics, in fact I would hate to live in a neighborhood where people were so nosy they did know all of those things.
Allowing PWE to have lockboxes is not the same as suggesting that there should be no drinking age limit (though I do disagree with 21 here in the states, but that is a different argument), or an age criterion on buying cigarettes or gambling. While I believe there are valid arguments for legalizing drugs (mostly regulating them and preventing drug violence related deaths) trying to say that my lack of support for the "protect the children" argument is akin to any of these things is simply inflammatory and hyperbole.
I don't want lockboxes, but I don't want to see children used as an excuse for why I don't want them. Parents should be monitoring their children's activities in video games, especially MMO's, regardless of lockboxes or not. To claim that we need to protect them suggests that there are not ways for parents to prevent this kind of behavior and take in active role in teaching their children the desired behavior.
Let's keep the topic to whether or not you would want lockboxes for yourself. This is not a thread to discuss how to raise children, and that is severely off the topic of these boards.
SO! I'll pose some new questions to further discussion and hopefully everyone can stay on topic and friendly:
What personal gameplay aspects of lockboxes do you like or dislike?
What are your experiences with lockboxes?
How do you think lockboxes will impact your own gameplay?
I stress the word "friendly" here- I know this is a topic that many people feel passionately about, however we want to foster constructive posts, rather than destructive. Remember that we're one community, and the friends you make here are the adventurers you slay dragons with once the game is launched!
If I have a kid or not is actually irrelevant. I will not say one way or another if I do have a kid. What I wrote was if I had a child under 15. I wrote that specifically because we are discussing MMO's.
See the village analogy doesn't work for me here for two reasons. First, what a child does on the internet is not the same thing as what a child does in one's neighborhood. You see a neighborhood has an interest in making sure certain moral codes are agreed upon and lived up to. The internet and even an MMO community can never be that homogenic. There are too many diverse groups to expect that an MMO community would be able to "raise" a child.
Second, unless specifically asked to do so most neighbors are not going to monitor what my child does in side the home. If my child goes out to play before they have finished their homework, should I expect my neighbors to know this and send my kid home? What if I have a rather active child and I find they do better on their school work if they have gone out to play before they do it, should I then expect my neighbors to be privy to all of this? Certainly some neighbors might be friends of the family as well and know these things, but I do not expect my entire community to know the inner workings of my family dynamics, in fact I would hate to live in a neighborhood where people were so nosy they did know all of those things.
Allowing PWE to have lockboxes is not the same as suggesting that there should be no drinking age limit (though I do disagree with 21 here in the states, but that is a different argument), or an age criterion on buying cigarettes or gambling. While I believe there are valid arguments for legalizing drugs (mostly regulating them and preventing drug violence related deaths) trying to say that my lack of support for the "protect the children" argument is akin to any of these things is simply inflammatory and hyperbole.
I don't want lockboxes, but I don't want to see children used as an excuse for why I don't want them. Parents should be monitoring their children's activities in video games, especially MMO's, regardless of lockboxes or not. To claim that we need to protect them suggests that there are not ways for parents to prevent this kind of behavior and take in active role in teaching their children the desired behavior.
Fix the quote please I edited it before you posted. (I added the under 15 bit before you posted this.)
Again your blowing taking something to extreme to try and prove we are wrong. The children thing is just an example of why they shouldn't be allowed and a very obvious one at that. It doesn't change the driving force of our argument that these lockboxes are EXPLOITATIVE and are going against current laws via a shady grey area.
You continually refute this by saying parents are responsible for raising their children and they are BUT we are ALL responsible in making this a world we want to live in, that includes how we use the internet and how "we allow it" to be used.
Once upon a time, we many of us had the right to walk around with pistols and were allowed to play poker in saloons while wearing them but this is no longer the case is it. Fact is laws evolved and so did society.
The internet is a society that is very quickly evolving as such the laws we govern ourselves with must try to keep up with it too.
Stop taking what I say and using stupid examples. No one is saying the whole street knows the inner workings of your home. Common sense is required.
What I'm saying is your kid while playing with his normal group of friends decides to say paint the neighbors cat and the other neighbors see them they should react etc.
Don't try and make "it takes a village" appear to be some form of invasive nosiness that not what it means.
I'm sorry but I can't take your arguments serious anymore, they sound too much like what some teenager trying to "protect" his "right" to be naughty sound like.
Edit: I was typing this post before you posted melanderi, it just take me awhile to actually hit post at times.
What personal gameplay aspects of lockboxes do you like or dislike?
They are IMHO a shady form of lottery gambling with absolutely no government control on how they are used compared to other more traditional gambling products and outlets. Also like mob run machines the win factor is greatly skewed to lose IMHO
What are your experiences with lockboxes?
I've tried some in the past then I realized they were a scam, and almost every guild I have ever been in always said the same, sell them .
How do you think lockboxes will impact your own gameplay?
I have found these often are the only way to get that one cosmetic item or mount you want and as such I would rather pay 20 bucks for a mount in the shop than have to spend x amount on a stupid key that will allow me to gamble for a very very small chance at the item i want in the first place. In essence it greatly reduces my enjoyment of the games that have them.
Got a question for you Melanderi. Do you consider lock boxes gambling, in your honest opinion? What are the perceived risks of Cryptic providing lock boxes in their games?
I know these are tough questions, but am awaiting you reply for followup.
Got a question for you Melanderi. Do you consider lock boxes gambling, in your honest opinion? What are the perceived risks of Cryptic providing lock boxes in their games?
I know these are tough questions, but am awaiting you reply for followup.
Good question! However I unfortunately will be refraining from offering an opinion on lockboxes at this time. I'm keen to see how this discussion develops!
Good question! However I unfortunately will be refraining from offering an opinion on lockboxes at this time. I'm keen to see how this discussion develops!
I'll accept that as a skilled and willful sidestep!
There is one way to use lockbox and avoid gambling issue. If all the items in lockbox have same or roughly the same value(e.g. something important for fighter while something important for cleric etc.) then it can't be called gambling as you are paying for what you get.
Or if they want to add gamble anywayz - it is much better to go DDO way - i.e. make some quests with unique and overpowered loot and make that campaign p2p. That way of doing it is still somewhat fair.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Let's keep the topic to whether or not you would want lockboxes for yourself. This is not a thread to discuss how to raise children, and that is severely off the topic of these boards.
SO! I'll pose some new questions to further discussion and hopefully everyone can stay on topic and friendly:
What personal gameplay aspects of lockboxes do you like or dislike?
What are your experiences with lockboxes?
How do you think lockboxes will impact your own gameplay?
I stress the word "friendly" here- I know this is a topic that many people feel passionately about, however we want to foster constructive posts, rather than destructive. Remember that we're one community, and the friends you make here are the adventurers you slay dragons with once the game is launched!
I'm still concerned for kids who can easily sign up with "parent's info including credit card-level things" but will respect the request as one who helps set the board's pace.
My response to these series of question were mostly answered in my original reply although I'll take out the kids part and replace the opening transition with "adults who just won't recognize this gambling because it's a video game." with a transition conclusion in brackets about the dangers of unknowing gambling.
My personal opinion (which may or may not reflect certain views of the companies of this game,) is I despise lock-boxes. Whether it's legally or morally allowed, it is gambling and I know all too well as a person working with social psychology how dangerous it can be whether it's a game or real life. One thing we can do to recognize it is put things like this in their own "isolated" environment, like one gambles in casinos and not everywhere. Addiction is more easily recognized this way, but is no guarantee somebody will get help. However, it's a lot easier when it's not liked to say video games and social media.
But it's a lot easier to look for these signs when you have the experience and the development to do so. Adults who just won't recognize this gambling because it's a video game who will play this game will not. They are at a lot of risk when they lack the concepts to understand Skinner-based reactions like reinforcing stimulus or Skinner Boxes unless you have an app that's tending to describe this. [Some of these people not only are at risk for gambling addiction, but might not realize the way they are being suggested to "just try one more time" and might not recognize it it thinking it's "only a game" and not in the controlled environment like a "casino" or "card game." If it's gambling, let's identify it for those to make informed consent, but having the boxes always pop up may not be safe for some.]
Another thing that bugged me is in STO, the boxes you paid for were so horribly never worth the price of a key even bought in bulk. I don't mean everybody winning a top tier item, but the standard items were crappy (IMHO.)
Next in STO the boxes popped up all the damn time flooding my inventory and became even a nuisance to delete they got so frequent. Maybe just maybe if they had an option to earn a key through game-play the way you got secondary currency to buy cash shop points, but even this I fear could cause "get a taste and you're hooked" gambling mentality for any game.
Next is the issue I have with theme. While I could be persuaded Ferengi could do this for profit (in STO,) this goes against the whole of D&D. We don't seek out NPC's and pay them coin for a gamble at something better only they can open. Bluntly, it's just not done in D&D. Even if somebody could find this, it's fringe and nowhere near accepted let alone popularly accepted.
All this written though, it saddens me to write I wouldn't be surprised if these boxes show up anyway under whatever "cosmetic" justification.
One final plea to the company:
League of Legends is a fantasy game and it never uses gambling and is very successful in its micro-transactions. Please remember that and consider just saying no to the lock boxes.
Let's keep the topic to whether or not you would want lockboxes for yourself.
Personally, I dont mind them because PW allows you to trade in game currency for game store currency, meaning you can buy lock boxes or keys or anything else in the game store without spending any of your own cash money. Bear in mind that just because I do not "mind them" does not mean I plan on purchasing any myself. But if they fund development, so be it.
There is one way to use lockbox and avoid gambling issue. If all the items in lockbox have same or roughly the same value(e.g. something important for fighter while something important for cleric etc.) then it can't be called gambling as you are paying for what you get.
Or if they want to add gamble anywayz - it is much better to go DDO way - i.e. make some quests with unique and overpowered loot and make that campaign p2p. That way of doing it is still somewhat fair.
I would rather they outright sell these items for an increased amount individually, its like going to Canadian Tire to buy winter tires but instead walking out with a scrapper for your windshield and for the same amount as the tires cause generally that's how many boxes you'll have to open if you are lucky.
I played allods for about one month and bought a 20$ griffin and was happy to help support the game, but only because they "allowed" me to support the game my way for something I actually wanted.
Now take Forsaken World where to get some of those nice mounts you must buy an "orb" where you only get a "chance" at the mount but could get pots and other cosmetic junk. I wouldn't buy an orb from them ever.
Just want to add if you use in game currency to buy cash shop currency that cs currency you bought still came at the cost of real money, just not your own.
Let's keep the topic to whether or not you would want lockboxes for yourself. This is not a thread to discuss how to raise children, and that is severely off the topic of these boards.
SO! I'll pose some new questions to further discussion and hopefully everyone can stay on topic and friendly:
What personal gameplay aspects of lockboxes do you like or dislike?
Likes: Wide variety of rewards
Dislike: Items that are lockbox exclusive, I'd like to be able to buy individual items rather than hope I get it from a lockbox.
What are your experiences with lockboxes? My lockbox experience is STO. I'm not a huge fan of them there for the reasons listed above.
How do you think lockboxes will impact your own gameplay? Generally speaking they don't impact my own game play, if you make it so there are no lockbox exclusives then it would have no impact at all on me and likely increase the amount of money I spend in a game shop.
I stress the word "friendly" here- I know this is a topic that many people feel passionately about, however we want to foster constructive posts, rather than destructive. Remember that we're one community, and the friends you make here are the adventurers you slay dragons with once the game is launched!
Comments
That's what I said here starting in paragraph four.
Link
Link
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
This is really the most important thing for all of you to be considering when responding.
Just because current laws do not prohibit activities of online gaming doesn't it mean it shouldn't or won't in the future.
As I said pages back the current legal system has not caught up with online trade and how to mandate it. There wouldn't be any regulations if nobody questioned the morality of actions in the world.
And since lockboxes follow every definition of gambling (following the acceptance that virtual products have value) why should the laws of online trade be any different than physical trade?
It's up to the parents to make sure that their kids aren't gambling?
Parents are not responsible for their children partaking in gambling activities unless they directly permit them to gamble. The responsibility lies with the gambling distributors.
Parents don't comprehend items such as lockboxes unless they themselves play video games. To them video games aren't maliciously designed and an occasional $10 isn't something a parent would immediately question...and arguably shouldn't have to.
In addition credit cards are not the only method of online sales. Visa Gift Cards are readily available as well as SMS, Paypal and several Mail in Services in which kids can easily, in this day in age, gain access to virtual payments.
The final important fact which is extremely important to remember is that most, if not every, State in the United States legally permit people to work at fourteen years and older. It's extremely likely for children to get their own bank account around fourteen years old as well as their own cash-flow without the need to ask their parents permission to buy anything.
At this age parents should watch, advise and to an extent control the child's spending but this is the age I am most concerned about. This is the age when they are minors and do not have to go directly through their parents in order to spend money on games.
And 14-18 is in no way "too young" to play MMO's. In fact that's the main audience in most games.
As far as the legality of gambling and lock boxes, that point is entirely moot since PW's other game's already have them, therefore they have obviously already considered any legal implications.
This is the crux I am specifically worried about.
You read my mind there. I just had a look at various methods to buy zen and just came here to post it but I see you already tackled it (specifically buying cash cards from simple shops lets you get zen credit).
Also very important points raised as truth highlighted.
Saved me another detailed post.
This thread voices concerns and the most sincere requests, with reasoning, for not adding such content but we would be truly naive if we didn't expect them to be added regardless of what we say.
Most every person who has posted comments against lockboxes has admitted that truth in their first comment.
That doesn't mean they're not allowed to voice their frustrations as long as they're not degrading other's opinions or concerns.
Looking at that list, I do not see a single one of those methods that a child could access without either stealing their parents money/CC information or buying it with their own money. Both of those issues are not things the game companies are responsible for, nor do any game companies suggest that children do these things.
All of this of course also ignores that you have to have an account to buy zen, if you're a parent you shouldn't be allowing your children to have an account without your permission. If you are concerned about your child's activities online you need to monitor them. I am sorry I believe it is every parents responsibility to keep track of their child's activities. I would never let a child under 15 play a game like NW or STO. There is too much about the experience that I cannot control. I would never let me child have complete access to my methods of payment either. I don't even believe that children under 15 should be on the internet very often, and almost never without parental supervision.
Lockboxes are lockboxes, I dislike them very much, but concerns about children are not realistic concerns for PWE or any other gaming company because they are legally protected. The legal status of things like lockboxes may change in the future, but unless the changes are widespread enough I do not see companies like PWE changing their tactics.
If you don't want to see lockboxes in NW then threaten PWE with your wallets and not nebulous legal theory that will be unlikely to change their practices. There are many great reasons to disagree with the use of lockboxes and plenty of ways to argue they can make this money in other ways without having to resort to protecting children from the practices of a game company who explicitly states that you must have a parents permission and supervision to play their game if you are under the age of 18. In fact, based on PWE's terms of service you shouldn't even have an account under the age of 13.
None of this is direct at anyone poster, this is more directed at the argument that this lockbox practices is targeted at children. This is simply not true when the ToS for these games don't want children under 13 playing. It is not PWE's responsibility to make sure you read the EULA or that your children are doing what you want them too. If we start to believe that it is PWE's job to play parental supervisor we end up with a game that will be targeted towards children, not what I would like to see from this game. But hey it'd be great to get more kids into DnD I suppose.
I agree. As long as people are honest with themselves that no amount of begging or pleading will actually accomplish anything, then its all in good "fun". But if someone actually deludes themselves into believing that they can persuade PW not to sell lock boxes, then they would be setting themselves up for disappointment.
Cash cards show that providing a proof of date of birth is not necessary to indulge in this practice of lockboxes which may be a form of gambling.
I don't see any reason not to explore any possible argument. It is public discussion afterall. And I believe that ethics for any company are more important than profits - if only to save face. Ethics and values are necessary for long term. All big companies stress on the values and ethics(mission vision etc.). Only small time companies looking for short term profits ignore them.
Also its a discussion, not a motion or mandate that we can use to threaten. We are simply exploring various arguments here. If it was a petition or something it won't have been under discussion section.
He forgot one way, pre paid credit cards Link
Pretty sure you don't have to be 18 to buy them. They are available widely in canada, I can even buy them at a pharmacy.
As for the argument but it's not against the law or it's not PWE responsibility. That maybe can be argued but we can also argue they are purposely playing in a grey area when it comes to these.
We can instead of saying, "aww shucks, don't use em if your don't like em or aww shucks, we can't win so lets not fight it.."
We can talk, argue, scream and tell everyone what we think and FIGHT against it so that LAWS are eventually made to correct a situation that we feel is wrong and exploitative. Just like what happened about violence in video games and how it led to the ESRB rating system.
Take out the keys and make lockboxes drop random cs items and I won't have a problem with it but as soon as you add a "key", that is required to "use" the boxes, that costs real money then I firmly believe they become a lottery ticket and as such need to follow any laws relating to such lottery type gambling laws.
Just because these are not available physically in your local shop but accessible online in a mmo does not change anything to me.
As to the it doesn't have real value argument,
what a farce these companies invested in these games, make us agree to eulas that state we don't own our accounts etc etc and the fact that items are sold in item shops for real money beg to differ.
Like has been said repeatedly laws just need to catch up with the reality of the situation, meanwhile i will keep arguing against it.
My ancestors didn't fight the good fight so I would just roll over and take it, when things become difficult or unpopular, when I feel something is bad for my community be that online or in real life.
Btw this isn't an attack at anyone either like varrvarr has stated.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Just to add on to what Gillrmn said,
You can not assume that past fourteen kids are stealing money from their parents. As I said, parents should advise and in some cases control, not dictate, money the children earn themselves. Talk to any specialist in this field and they'll tell you how important it is to let kids have lee-way with their own money.
Maybe Truth will have a link to some research paper but I went through all of this when growing up. My parents and grandparents were told many times to stop, back up and let me make my own mistakes because if I didn't then when I get out into the real world I would fall flat on my face.
I started working at 15 years old and had my own bank account which could have easily been linked to a Paypal Account if I so desired. I tended to go for the Visa Gift Card option though even until I was 20 simply because I never applied for a credit card.
And I assure you my parents tried to keep tabs on what I was doing with my money as well as online but that was more than an impossible task. I'm not sure if you have kids or how old they are, but if you assume you're keeping a close eye on them I can guarantee if they are 13+ you're not watching them half as close as you think you are.
The fact of the matter, for all your parents are responsible argument, is that if a kid walked in with a stolen credit card and/or money into my store I would be held liable for the sale of lottery tickets to a minor. Not the parents.
If the parents stand next to them and say it's alright for me to sell their children lottery tickets I am held responsible.
The responsibility of gambling sales always reverts to the retailer. In order to argue parents should be responsible for 100% of their children's actions then you must first state why the online laws should have different regulations than physical trade laws.
EDIT -
Been saying this for years. The governments tend to view games as games; no more, no less. They don't understand that there's a personal vestment in in-game items and true online economies which result in the same exact behaviors in game as the real world.
They view things from a 20th century standpoint and think of online content as nothing more than little picture icons.
The dutch made leaps and bounds years ago by accepting the realization that those picture icons represented time and energy...it's only a matter of time before the rest of the world catches up.
P.S. I am really glad to see a NL Dane say the NL Government is taking the time to consider putting trade restrictions on such content.
Fighting against or expressing an opinion against something is a far cry from "pleading" or "begging"
In the same fashion because your not of the same opinion about our discussion doesn't make you a "wet noodle" or a "sheep"
Edit: btw ambisinisterr I fixed that part of the quote you have of me. The "does" should have been "doesn't". Sometimes it takes me awhile to make my posts readable lol.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Dane is danish = Denmark. Nl is dutch which is Netherlands. They are different countries. Though Dutch and Dane might be confusing as both start from D.
But if denmark passes a law, it will set a precedent for other european countries and they will bring in similar amendments soon. Most probably, the similar decision.
I'll make it more simple and list a compilation from moneytrail.net a site specifically made to teach about parents and kids access to kids' money. Part two of their two part article dealt with this exactly and it's going to suggest similar if not identical suggestions if they base this on the same academic experts. if you want to read the whole series there is a link to the first part in that article listing the access to money a kid to early teen can get.
But I cannot stress enough the time and experience for many teens is simply not developed yet let alone a 12 and under child. Lemme see if I can find a medium describing this between super academic and "brains for dummies,"... here we go,
So even if teens were told to not do something and seemed to have an understanding why, they would still do it in the "if won't affect me I'm young" dangers we've often seen. Kids literally may not even be developed enough to grasp this concept of "gambling risk, loss of funds, where the money comes from and what happens if you spend it all now."
What a child (or underage teenager) does with their money is between them and their parents. If a kid has an income or an allowance and they spend it all on Zen for a video game, that is once again the parents' responsibility to correct the behavior not PWE's or any other gaming company. It isn't even the responsibility of the government to make the decision. It is an issue that is between child and parent.
As I said before if I had a child under 15 I wouldn't let them play a game like NW, or any other MMO for that matter. Any MMO has a game world with a great number of potential interactions that I do not agree with, some of them created by the game designers and some of them created by the other players. It is my responsibility to decide if my child of any age is mature enough to be exposed to things like Lockboxes or crazy RP cyber-sex orgies (yeah walked in on a few of those in EQ).
You want to get your message across to PWE, then tell them you won't buy their game if there are lockboxes in it. Let them know you mean business. That's the only way to get companies to change their tactics, is to convince them it is bad for profit.
And again, not according to the laws of gambling as they are.
The responsibility to prevent underage gambling always falls on the retailer.
Parents have to educate their kids on the risks but the laws dictate the retailer is responsible for any underage gambling to occur with or without parental consent.
P.S. Doh! My bad Gillrmn and thanks for the correction. But yeah without a doubt once one Eu Gov takes action the rest will follow suit.
It's great what you say about IF you had a child under 15. The truth though is IF you INDEED did have a child you would know it takes a village to raise them.
Having rules and watching them is nice and all but you can't be watching them every second of everyday. If you live in a good neighborhood and your kid runs off and gets into some tomfoolery your neighbors won't just watch and say meh it's not my problem. They will tell the kids to knock it off or let you know what is going on.
If your in a bad neighborhood they think ah it's not my responsibility and then you end up with a "sunday special programming" based on a true story
We as a people form the government so what "we as a people" decide becomes what the governments become responsible for.
By your way of thinking why not take away the age limit on beer, cigarettes, gambling in casinos and lets legalize pot while at it.
I mean common it's the parents responsibility to raise em right isn't it ?
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
If I have a kid or not is actually irrelevant. I will not say one way or another if I do have a kid. What I wrote was if I had a child under 15. I wrote that specifically because we are discussing MMO's.
See the village analogy doesn't work for me here for two reasons. First, what a child does on the internet is not the same thing as what a child does in one's neighborhood. You see a neighborhood has an interest in making sure certain moral codes are agreed upon and lived up to. The internet and even an MMO community can never be that homogenic. There are too many diverse groups to expect that an MMO community would be able to "raise" a child.
Second, unless specifically asked to do so most neighbors are not going to monitor what my child does in side the home. If my child goes out to play before they have finished their homework, should I expect my neighbors to know this and send my kid home? What if I have a rather active child and I find they do better on their school work if they have gone out to play before they do it, should I then expect my neighbors to be privy to all of this? Certainly some neighbors might be friends of the family as well and know these things, but I do not expect my entire community to know the inner workings of my family dynamics, in fact I would hate to live in a neighborhood where people were so nosy they did know all of those things.
Allowing PWE to have lockboxes is not the same as suggesting that there should be no drinking age limit (though I do disagree with 21 here in the states, but that is a different argument), or an age criterion on buying cigarettes or gambling. While I believe there are valid arguments for legalizing drugs (mostly regulating them and preventing drug violence related deaths) trying to say that my lack of support for the "protect the children" argument is akin to any of these things is simply inflammatory and hyperbole.
I don't want lockboxes, but I don't want to see children used as an excuse for why I don't want them. Parents should be monitoring their children's activities in video games, especially MMO's, regardless of lockboxes or not. To claim that we need to protect them suggests that there are not ways for parents to prevent this kind of behavior and take in active role in teaching their children the desired behavior.
SO! I'll pose some new questions to further discussion and hopefully everyone can stay on topic and friendly:
What personal gameplay aspects of lockboxes do you like or dislike?
What are your experiences with lockboxes?
How do you think lockboxes will impact your own gameplay?
I stress the word "friendly" here- I know this is a topic that many people feel passionately about, however we want to foster constructive posts, rather than destructive. Remember that we're one community, and the friends you make here are the adventurers you slay dragons with once the game is launched!
@Effreet in game
Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct. Learn them, Love them
Fix the quote please I edited it before you posted. (I added the under 15 bit before you posted this.)
Again your blowing taking something to extreme to try and prove we are wrong. The children thing is just an example of why they shouldn't be allowed and a very obvious one at that. It doesn't change the driving force of our argument that these lockboxes are EXPLOITATIVE and are going against current laws via a shady grey area.
You continually refute this by saying parents are responsible for raising their children and they are BUT we are ALL responsible in making this a world we want to live in, that includes how we use the internet and how "we allow it" to be used.
Once upon a time, we many of us had the right to walk around with pistols and were allowed to play poker in saloons while wearing them but this is no longer the case is it. Fact is laws evolved and so did society.
The internet is a society that is very quickly evolving as such the laws we govern ourselves with must try to keep up with it too.
Stop taking what I say and using stupid examples. No one is saying the whole street knows the inner workings of your home. Common sense is required.
What I'm saying is your kid while playing with his normal group of friends decides to say paint the neighbors cat and the other neighbors see them they should react etc.
Don't try and make "it takes a village" appear to be some form of invasive nosiness that not what it means.
I'm sorry but I can't take your arguments serious anymore, they sound too much like what some teenager trying to "protect" his "right" to be naughty sound like.
Edit: I was typing this post before you posted melanderi, it just take me awhile to actually hit post at times.
What personal gameplay aspects of lockboxes do you like or dislike?
They are IMHO a shady form of lottery gambling with absolutely no government control on how they are used compared to other more traditional gambling products and outlets. Also like mob run machines the win factor is greatly skewed to lose IMHO
What are your experiences with lockboxes?
I've tried some in the past then I realized they were a scam, and almost every guild I have ever been in always said the same, sell them .
How do you think lockboxes will impact your own gameplay?
I have found these often are the only way to get that one cosmetic item or mount you want and as such I would rather pay 20 bucks for a mount in the shop than have to spend x amount on a stupid key that will allow me to gamble for a very very small chance at the item i want in the first place. In essence it greatly reduces my enjoyment of the games that have them.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Got a question for you Melanderi. Do you consider lock boxes gambling, in your honest opinion? What are the perceived risks of Cryptic providing lock boxes in their games?
I know these are tough questions, but am awaiting you reply for followup.
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Good question! However I unfortunately will be refraining from offering an opinion on lockboxes at this time. I'm keen to see how this discussion develops!
@Effreet in game
Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct. Learn them, Love them
I'll accept that as a skilled and willful sidestep!
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Or if they want to add gamble anywayz - it is much better to go DDO way - i.e. make some quests with unique and overpowered loot and make that campaign p2p. That way of doing it is still somewhat fair.
I'm still concerned for kids who can easily sign up with "parent's info including credit card-level things" but will respect the request as one who helps set the board's pace.
My response to these series of question were mostly answered in my original reply although I'll take out the kids part and replace the opening transition with "adults who just won't recognize this gambling because it's a video game." with a transition conclusion in brackets about the dangers of unknowing gambling.
That makes:
Finally, I will avoid the boxes.
Personally, I dont mind them because PW allows you to trade in game currency for game store currency, meaning you can buy lock boxes or keys or anything else in the game store without spending any of your own cash money. Bear in mind that just because I do not "mind them" does not mean I plan on purchasing any myself. But if they fund development, so be it.
I would rather they outright sell these items for an increased amount individually, its like going to Canadian Tire to buy winter tires but instead walking out with a scrapper for your windshield and for the same amount as the tires cause generally that's how many boxes you'll have to open if you are lucky.
I played allods for about one month and bought a 20$ griffin and was happy to help support the game, but only because they "allowed" me to support the game my way for something I actually wanted.
Now take Forsaken World where to get some of those nice mounts you must buy an "orb" where you only get a "chance" at the mount but could get pots and other cosmetic junk. I wouldn't buy an orb from them ever.
Just want to add if you use in game currency to buy cash shop currency that cs currency you bought still came at the cost of real money, just not your own.
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My comments in red.