Depends on what is in the lockbox. If it is a powerful item or any item for that matter than NO. If it is something cosmetic than who cares. I personally would never pay for a key to a lockbox. What they are doing in Champs is horrible and I would not spend my money on it.
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yinyMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2012
Just say no to lockboxes that drop in game but can't be opened also with things dropped in game. That is what I would deem, 'poopy'.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Currently: Lilyth Lightlorn@dreasimy of Hammerfist Clan. Formerly Neverwinterly Known As:Allsfaire of KORTITB LilythTr1sta of House Fey-BrancheSednablood of BDANWT Cyane
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2012
Ok I guess I'll throw my opinion, not Cryptic/PWE's opinion, into this as well as some educated answers to some of the questions/concerns listed on the thread.
I tried to separate the wall of text out with quotes. Hopefully this makes it a bit less imposing :-p
First of all I do not want lockbox style content in any game, period. I personally dislike them with a passion and feel like they exist for the sole purpose of indirectly forcing players to pay to open them.
Psychologically speaking when a player gets a lockbox there's a natural subliminal 'push' for a player to spend money to unlock it. They aren't really cosmetic in the same sense as appearance kits because once you have something in your possession it is exponentially harder to simply just discard it.
To give this a more palpable explanation consider the ways to market lock-boxes:
-You are killing monsters and a lockbox drops. In order to open the box you must pay $1.
-You're browsing the store and one of the items you can buy is a chest with random loot for $1.
Would you be more likely to buy a key to open a lockbox you just aquired or buy the random item chest?
I doubt any of you would say you would buy it from the store and that is the psychological 'push' I'm explaining and the reason why I detest lockbox systems.
As for the gambling argument it's an entirely valid reason. There are very special laws on gambling which are not carried into video games right now because the sales medium has not matured.
Currently what people expect from video games is that they are Chucky Cheese style content. The money to spend is purely to have fun and at the end of the day although there are prized none of them really have any great value. It's fundamentally an arcade with stuffed animal prizes.
However these are other arcades companies such as Dave and Busters which is labelled as a gambling facility due to the more adult styled games and rewards. It's the exact same concept as Chucky Cheese but due to the nature of the rewards they have to follow completely different laws.
Unfortunately there is a massive gray area about virtual merchandise at this point in time. Depending on, sorry but it's true, the age and technical experience of the judges and government officials in various trials and surveys there has been completely conflicting results.
In 2007 Holland's Supreme Court declared the stealing virtual online possessions illegal.
However Rune scape added a system similar to Lockboxes called Squeel of Fortune in which players could win experience and some of the best and most expensive items in the game. Of course odds are you got junk worth no value but that is exactly why is Jagex got their rear ends torn apart by the player base for promoting gambling.
Legal Definition of Gambling: A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.
The loophole that some other users alluded to is the fact that virtual items are only considered to have value on a case by case basis. When players wrote to the British authority on gambling the responses received stated that Squeel of Fortune was not legally considered gambling because that authority didn't deem virtual items to have any value. In essence you paid money for something of no value.
In a nutshell governments deem all virtual products as having no value. It's painfully obvious their views haven't caught up with modern technology as with that view point kindle books and e-comics have no worth either.
Meanwhile this directly conflicts with Jagex's Anti-Bot Program. All of their anti-botting and Real World Trading lawsuits rely solely on the validity of the argument that all virtual content on their game belongs to them and has value a per their rules:
Nobody has our permission to sell rune scape accounts or any rune scape related virtual in-game item. All rune scape accounts and virtual items are the property of Jagex Ltd and players are only granted a limited, revocable permission to use accounts and virtual items.
In time I believe we'll see this gray area get defined but for now all internet users are subject to this annoying and right violating lack of understanding within the legal systems.
As for adults being responsible for minors, that is a two way street. Again this is only a an issue because the virtual medium is new and undefined by the legal systems of the world. If the same actions were to be committed in a physical environment the rules of trade would be significantly different.
This is an issue which *will* be addressed in time because it is an all too common event for company's to store credit card information for underage accounts and have the kids unlawfully use this information. It's a feature which most parents will fall for once in their lives no matter how experienced a they are with computers and video games.
In the physical world companies are responsible for who they sell merchandise to and it makes no sense to justify companies not taking appropriate safety measures or have legal ramifications for neglecting any obligations normal stores are subject to.
The "if you don't like it don't use it" comments I truly can't put into words how invalid of an argument that is. In a formal debate it would more than likely be considered an instant loss for the topic since another more rude way to say it is "I'm right because I like it."
If anybody wishes to defend content players claim compromise the integrity of a game, the only possible defense is to present evidence stating how such content doesn't compromise the game's integrity. Dictating a personal lack of care for the integrity of any game shows nothing more than selfishness.
I am by no means intending for this to be a personal attack, though there's a good chance it is coming off as one, but this is the only way to express the true nature of such a comment. I can't think of any kinder way. If every game in the world was subject to such opinions declaring rules we'd see baseball players hitting each other with their bats, spears still being a legal tackle in football and weighted dice in every casino.
Afterall why should the integrity of the game matter? If you don't like it don't partake in it.
With all this said and done I don't consider lockboxes a deal breaker for me. I'd much prefer they never appeared in Neverwinter and if they did I would insist that they are 100% cosmetic with NO ITEMS of power but they would simply push the limits between what is acceptable rather than outright cross the boundary.
Honestly I find that giving any items of any true worth far worse than simply selling the items. Nothing I can't stand more than liars and people who mask the truth and that is what lockboxes will be if they have high quality items included. The randomized chances never negate the fact a company sells success for money.
One of the things that bothers me with my experience with lockboxes in STO is that they do drop ships. Now I have no problem with paying for ships in STO beyond the standard array. Those things really do require a great deal of development time, some have "powers", they all most all have a unique Bridge Officer set up and they all have unique art. That's not something I would expect them to give away for free. I just don't like having them in a random chance box that I have to pay to unlock.
I can't think of anything in a DnD setting that would require that much development time that could be sold in the zen store. Even mount shouldn't have the kind of balance and "powers" issues that a ship in STO does. It'll be interesting to see what things in NWO are being sold.
One of the things that bothers me with my experience with lockboxes in STO is that they do drop ships. Now I have no problem with paying for ships in STO beyond the standard array. Those things really do require a great deal of development time, some have "powers", they all most all have a unique Bridge Officer set up and they all have unique art. That's not something I would expect them to give away for free. I just don't like having them in a random chance box that I have to pay to unlock.
I can't think of anything in a DnD setting that would require that much development time that could be sold in the zen store. Even mount shouldn't have the kind of balance and "powers" issues that a ship in STO does. It'll be interesting to see what things in NWO are being sold.
I want a +5 vorpal pair of shears of dancing that can give a great haircut on it's own in 4 rounds or less...
This city promises death for the meek, glory for the bold, danger for all, and riches for Jade! Elven Trickster Rogue: Two-bladed elf, tons of stabby stabby and that sort of thing...
| R. A. Salvatore | My Minions | Forgotten Realms Wiki | Elven Translator |
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bitterwinterMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Guys, let's refrain from personal attacks here. This means everyone- I'm not calling out anyone specific.
This is a great discussion with some very interesting arguments on both sides of the debate. However, please be mindful of the tone of your post and remember that constructive comments are much more appreciated than destructive comments. This doesn't mean that everything must be rainbows and butterflies, but there is no need for name calling.
After all- we're all here because we have a love of Neverwinter and D&D! Keep that in mind, and leave the ad hominem replies in the lockbo- I mean, at the door.
Hello new moderator who might you be its nice to see a new person:)
This is a moot point. We can kick and scream and demand that they not be included, but Perfect World will not stop until they shove lockboxes down our throats and up every other orafice they can.
Also, you should read what is in the radar for STO's next big patch. I don't have much hope for Neverwinter anymore. At least not for it becoming anything other han a huge set of grindfests that you can get some relief from only by spending money on Zen.
When STO's Season 7 patch comes out, depending on whether or not they've chosen to actually listen to their community, I may be washing my hands of Cryptic. And it will be very hard for me to be convinced to even bother trying NW, free or not. I am fed up with all the money grabs wrapped up in grindfests. I am beginning to wonder if they even know how to make a game anymore. Games are supposed to be fun, yet every decision they have made since perfect World took over has been one nutcracker after another. I wish it would stop.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2012
Well, I'm not going to comment much on the "personal tone" that has been worried about (and we have gotten any responses sent to us for the record;) as posts on this have been decided on a company level and we have a company-moderated reply on that.
Hello new moderator who might you be its nice to see a new person:)
Actually, melanderi was here previously as a Developer or other Cryptic Staff person before (and you can still find his posts in the Dev tracker.)
I personally am happy to see him back since this person has a good mix of sensibility and humor. Of course, I might be a wee bit biased using those traits myself.
Okay, back to the topic.
My personal opinion (which may or may not reflect certain views of the companies of this game,) is I despise lock-boxes. Whether it's legally or morally allowed, it is gambling and I know all too well as a person working with social psychology how dangerous it can be whether it's a game or real life. One thing we can do to recognize it is put things like this in their own "isolated" environment, like one gambles in casinos and not everywhere. Addiction is more easily recognized this way, but is no guarantee somebody will get help. However, it's a lot easier when it's not liked to say video games and social media.
But it's a lot easier to look for these signs when you have the experience and the development to do so. Kids who will play this game will not. They are at a lot of risk when they lack the concepts to understand Skinner-based reactions like reinforcing stimulus or Skinner Boxes unless you have an app that's tending to describe this.
And respectfully, kids will find ways to access things like credit cards and in-game purchasing not appreciating any dangers except "don't get caught" for the most part if peer pressured or hooked not appreciating the consequences (until many ave to pay for stuff every month or risk going broke/hungry/homeless on their own. ) Their literally developing minds are exceptionally impressionable to setting in bad ways at that age. Most parents are working jobs just to pay what they used to and wouldn't even think of any "dangers" of video games besides violence and sometimes sex. I'd love to be wrong on this, but many parents would simply not "think of or even get this game point" I'm making here it being not easily noticed unless the parents play the game enough to see this drop and look for warning signs like a parent would say, look for signs of a predatory nature (look for subtle things not saying this is in any way like child predation or as life threatening.)
Another thing that bugged me is in STO, the boxes you paid for were so horribly never worth the price of a key even bought in bulk. I don't mean everybody winning a top tier item, but the standard items were crappy (IMHO.)
Next in STO the boxes popped up all the damn time flooding my inventory and became even a nuisance to delete they got so frequent. Maybe just maybe if they had an option to earn a key through game-play the way you got secondary currency to buy cash shop points, but even this I fear could cause "get a taste and you're hooked" gambling mentality for any game.
Next is the issue I have with theme. While I could be persuaded Ferengi could do this for profit (in STO,) this goes against the whole of D&D. We don't seek out NPC's and pay them coin for a gamble at something better only they can open. Bluntly, it's just not done in D&D. Even if somebody could find this, it's fringe and nowhere near accepted let alone popularly accepted.
All this written though, it saddens me to write I wouldn't be surprised if these boxes show up anyway under whatever "cosmetic" justification.
One final plea to the company:
League of Legends is a fantasy game and it never uses gambling and is very successful in its micro-transactions. Please remember that and consider just saying no to the lock boxes.
Nay. This is Dungeons & Dragons. We've utilized chests for decades.. since SSI's Pool of Radiance as far as I can remember. No need to re-invent the wheel here. I feel gear/loot belongs in chests, not in the cash shop and most certainly not in user purchasable lock boxes.
"Lock boxes" will give it too much of a cheesy generic mmo cash shop feel...
Keep the Neverwinter cash shop as promised, vanity and consumables (and extra character slots/bank space/inventory space/slots etc).
"There are no plans to make a quick dime off of players who just have to have that +5 suit of magical plate armor that just so happens to be wearable as cloth armor... Nor will will be selling other types of "power"." -- Stormshade
This rules out lockboxes, period. I hope.
Andre,
from my previous experience with cryptic, i would not quote stormshade or any other staff member even the Exec producer and above to valid any of your points.
they have tendencies to change their mind and "forget" what they said earlier...when you remind them they are going to pretext the game has evolved and what was said in the past is in the past and we should all move on as well...
They store, taking up the space. If you have it, you will have it until you open, delete, or sell, and they only stack to 20 at a time.
Aye. Also, whenever they updated the possible contents in them, they retroactively updated all similar past locked boxes too. Meaning, that the ones you collected and never opened were also updated by such patches.
As well, in STO at least, there are and have been varying types of locked boxes that have varying reward tables. Such as Cardassian Locked Boxes, Ferengi Locked Boxes, and Tholian Locked Boxes.
These all came with a minimum of 1 Lobi Crystal when opened and had a chance of containing one type of special ship. Some had multiple types of ships that it could contain. Also, among the loot chances were such things as food, consumables, ship gear as well as very rare ship devices.
The Lobi Crystals are the newest type of "special" currency in STO that are used to trade in for special gear, cosmetics, pets, and ships from a Ferengi Lobi Crystal Trader. You can only get Lobi Crystals by opening Locked Boxes and they are also Bind to Character upon looting.
I truly hope, that if Locked Boxes make it into Neverwinter, they leave out Gear or anything that affects game balance and mechanics, unlike what they've done in STO. I hope they keep any potential rewards to things like Non-combat Pets, Mounts and Cosmetics. However, as I said, I'd much rather they just not put Locked Boxes in Neverwinter at all and instead just sell such possible contents straight up on the Cash Shop. I loathe the fact that if I wanted one of these special ships or devices in STO, that I'd have to either gamble with my money or rely on someone else to gamble with their money and then sell them for ridiculously high prices on the Market.
Which also is a money gimick in itself, in my opinion, for in order to afford to pay the Tens of Millions of Energy Credits people want for these ships and gear, I would need to pay 1000 Zen to make it so my bank and bags can even hold that much money. As a free play, you're limited to 10,000,000 EC.
I do suppose I am a bit jaded too, having opened 22 of these boxes in STO and not one contained anything I wanted. I did get a few of the rare ship devices but they are useless to me and I cannot even sell them for the prices they are going for because my bank cannot hold that many energy credits. I just wanted the Cardassian Ship and the Ferengi Ship, which out of 22 boxes, not one contained a single ship. In RTM value, 22 keys would be well over the price of the most expensive ship in the Cash Shop.
neowolfenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 68
edited October 2012
I hope Neverwinter doesnt have lockboxes to be perfectly honest. I find them a fairly poor and reprehensible way of milking money out of players.
Take STo for example, when the store only put new ships, uniforms etc.. in the Cstore I gladly spent money and bought almost all of them because if I saw something I liked I had total control and could buy it or not as I liked.
then lockboxes reared thier heads and rather than givinng us the option of buying the new content we want or not suddenly we have a "loot lottery" setup where best you can hope for is a tiny chance of getting what you want.
I find them a despicable way of generating revenue, in much the same way as all gambling..encouraging that "just one more mentality..maybe THIS one will be the one". Its pretty poor.
Give us the control of our purchases back, let us choose to buy ALL new content or not as we choose, don't serve it in a lottery format where 9 times out 10 we wont get squat but you will still have pocketed our dime...let me have something to show for the money I spend on the game rather than a sour taste in my mouth at having gotten squat..yet again.
Ser Alathor Crownguard, Cwelenas Alenuath, Dwarin Stonefist, Danaerys Hellborn
I hope Neverwinter doesnt have lockboxes to be perfectly honest. I find them a fairly poor and reprehensible way of milking money out of players.
Take STo for example, when the store only put new ships, uniforms etc.. in the Cstore I gladly spent money and bought almost all of them because if I saw something I liked I had total control and could buy it or not as I liked.
then lockboxes reared thier heads and rather than givinng us the option of buying the new content we want or not suddenly we have a "loot lottery" setup where best you can hope for is a tiny chance of getting what you want.
I find them a despicable way of generating revenue, in much the same way as all gambling..encouraging that "just one more mentality..maybe THIS one will be the one". Its pretty poor.
Give us the control of our purchases back, let us choose to buy ALL new content or not as we choose, don't serve it in a lottery format where 9 times out 10 we wont get squat but you will still have pocketed our dime...let me have something to show for the money I spend on the game rather than a sour taste in my mouth at having gotten squat..yet again.
To begin with, I LOVE gambling online and in games (Fallout:NV gambling RULED) but I never use real money in gambling. I'd rather use fake currency and the idea that you have to use real money to potentially get things you like is BS. I'm all for lockboxes for those who like a little chance, but don't make them the only way of getting the things I want. When I spend RL money, it's on things I want. If you're selling rare gear in the first place, the games broken, so that shouldn't be a problem. Give me a choice to gamble or to buy things as I wish, not one or the other. And if they do lockboxes, I had BETTER see some with Lolth drawings on it.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I'd rather use fake currency and the idea that you have to use real money to potentially get things you like is BS. I'm all for lockboxes for those who like a little chance, but don't make them the only way of getting the things I want.
I think this is the huge difference between 'random chance' and gambling. Earlier in the thread some had expressed views stating (paraphrased) what is the difference between random loot and lockboxes.
Well the difference is whether I have to pay real money or not. The legal definition of gambling I linked earlier definitively declares that gambling occurs when a person wagers a value with an uncertainty in return value.
If any company implemented a lockbox in which I needed to pay virtual currency in order to open the chest I wouldn't mind what-so-ever, but if lockboxes were to be incorporated into a system which forced me to spend money or store credit I feel it crosses the line into gambling. The best way I can describe this is to show how some relationships are only one way relationships. For instance a puppy is a dog but a dog is not a puppy.
To me all virtual items have a unique value. Spending virtual value in order to achieve a random virtual value is not gambling but spending real life value in order to obtain a random virtual value is absolutely gambling.
In any case I sadly agree with Truthseeker. The bottom line is regardless of any opposition these sickening products make money and as stormdragon mentioned even those who oppose them spend money on the tactics.
Some of you have expressed you will not spend money on lockboxes if they are implemented and you have a great deal of respect from me for that but for myself, as much as I despise the tactics, I'll likely spend cash on them...
And that's the sad part...it's a cheap and immoral tactic which works and so no matter how much players don't want them they will likely be implemented into more and more games until trade laws accept that in the modern world virtual products have a value regardless of their lack of comprehension.
I'd still have to go with saying that in general if you were to add lockboxes and it provides good cashflow for new content that is a good situation. I support the addition, even though I wouldn't use them and as of yet haven't in the many games I've played, even games where the boxes do provide great items. Naturally, it would be preferable for these randomized for cash items to not be game changing, to instead be cosmetic items- and this is not something uncommon in the slightest. GW2 does it extensively with both random boxes and with unidentified dyes through their AH. WoW has been doing it for years with trading cards, which I'm relatively sure can be bought by anyone. Heck- randomized items of value is the entire backbone of the trading card industry- we're talking Magic:TG, Pokemon, etc... which are very largely aimed at children, yet those packs may contain cards worth a total of half what you pay for a booster pack, up to ten times as much or even more.
My point is- why get outraged about 'gambling' in this game, where at the least you need an online way to pay to purchase lockboxes, when every toy store in the country has been using the exact same method for years to sell what are some of the most popular toys in the country.
Whether it is a cheap tactic is moot- randomized gear that drops 1% of the time or less is a cheap tactic to make you keep buying monthly subs yet 99% of mmos use that tactic.
I'd be more concerned with this thought- are they going to make the game's enjoyment depend largely on buying things- whether straight out or through gambling- or will the game be fun whether you pay zero or hundreds? If the game is designed around hundred hour boring grinds that can be bypassed using the cash shop- that's an issue, doesn't matter if I gamble for it or just fork out the money.
Another thing- is there anything proving that gambling on lock boxes in games actually does significantly put you more at risk of developing problem gambling later in life? I hear that argument being used, but I haven't seen any proof that makes it worse than the randomization shoved down our throats from regular mmo gear grinding, trading cards or highly luck based games like Pokemon.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'd still have to go with saying that in general if you were to add lockboxes and it provides good cashflow for new content that is a good situation. I support the addition, even though I wouldn't use them and as of yet haven't in the many games I've played, even games where the boxes do provide great items. Naturally, it would be preferable for these randomized for cash items to not be game changing, to instead be cosmetic items- and this is not something uncommon in the slightest. GW2 does it extensively with both random boxes and with unidentified dyes through their AH. WoW has been doing it for years with trading cards, which I'm relatively sure can be bought by anyone. Heck- randomized items of value is the entire backbone of the trading card industry- we're talking Magic:TG, Pokemon, etc... which are very largely aimed at children, yet those packs may contain cards worth a total of half what you pay for a booster pack, up to ten times as much or even more.
My point is- why get outraged about 'gambling' in this game, where at the least you need an online way to pay to purchase lockboxes, when every toy store in the country has been using the exact same method for years to sell what are some of the most popular toys in the country.
Whether it is a cheap tactic is moot- randomized gear that drops 1% of the time or less is a cheap tactic to make you keep buying monthly subs yet 99% of mmos use that tactic.
I'd be more concerned with this thought- are they going to make the game's enjoyment depend largely on buying things- whether straight out or through gambling- or will the game be fun whether you pay zero or hundreds? If the game is designed around hundred hour boring grinds that can be bypassed using the cash shop- that's an issue, doesn't matter if I gamble for it or just fork out the money.
Another thing- is there anything proving that gambling on lock boxes in games actually does significantly put you more at risk of developing problem gambling later in life? I hear that argument being used, but I haven't seen any proof that makes it worse than the randomization shoved down our throats from regular mmo gear grinding, trading cards or highly luck based games like Pokemon.
The basis of Internet-based "gambling" can be perused at this paper published in 2004. Page six does a good job of mentioning what an Electronic Gambling Device (EGD) is, and how to differentiate those who have gambling issues against "other internet obsessions." Another article or this paper deals more on the MMORPG risk-reward in 2005. However, neither deal with both the addiction of gambling and its access through an MMORPG as that feature was not widely implemented back then. Then this article was published for 2012 both addressing the online addictiveness of online MMO games and onling gambling in games.
My prior post is worried about this:
The manifold possibilities that online games offer for aficionados and novices alike clearly highlight the wide appeal of these games. Moreover, according to the latest report of the Entertainment Software Association (ESA), 25% of the computer and video game players are under the age of 18 years and 60% are male. The ESA also reported that 25% of parents do not impose time limits on their children?s Internet use in general and 17% of parents do not impose time limits on video and computer game playing (ESA, 2010). From these statistics, it appears that gaming, and particularly on-line gaming, is an integral element of children and adolescents? leisure time activities.Whilst gaming is a pleasurable pastime activity, research suggests that excessive online gaming may in extreme cases lead to symptoms commonly experienced by substance addicts, namely salience, mood modification, craving, and tolerance (W?lfling, Gr?sser and Thalemann, 2008; Young,2009; Hsu, Wen and Wu, 2009; Ko et al., 2009; Mehroof and Griffiths, 2010). A recent systematic literature review suggests that it is particularly excessive engagement with MMORPGs that can lead to addiction in a small minority of players(KussandGriffiths,2011b). Since online and offline video and computer games are particularly appealing to children and adolescents (ESA, 2010), it appears reasonable to suggest that these groups may be particularly at risk (i.e.,more vulnerable and susceptible) of developing gaming addiction. Furthermore, it has been argued that because of the24/7nature and almost mandatory excessive play required in playing MMORPGS (such as World of War-Craft and Ever-quest), online gaming may be more problematic for ?at risk? individuals than offline gaming (Griffiths and Meredith,2009).
However information after this gets...quite academic as in "wonk" level psychology detailed.
Those who are worried about being hooked on MMO's and paying real money but looking for "less academic replies" can find things here at MMORPG, here at CNRPG, here at twoplustwo, and of course a forum post on STO. The negative backlash of minors mirroring gambling and governmental regulation can be seen in a Japanese MMO game (writen in English) article done in two parts: Part 1Part 2. Before somebody mentions this is Japan/Asian MMO thinking, let me highlight one part that should be quite an eerie warning to what is being done here:
It is easy to see why players can be compelled to purchase. Some games opt to display global game announcements whenever a player reveals a high-value rare prize, inciting jealousy or renewed feelings that one's luck may change. Others readily hand out part one of a two-part package to entice participation. For example, players are freely given a treasure chest but in order to open the chest, a key must be purchased with real-life currency from the game's micro transaction store.
The mystery package mechanic is very popular in Eastern cultures where gambling is more widely accepted than in the West. For the many free-to-play games that generate all their income through their micro transaction stores, sales of such mystery packages amount to a large portion of some games' operating revenue -- sometimes up to half of total sales. One such example is Perfect World Entertainment (PWRD), which retails the mystery package system across most of its online intellectual properties, including the Western game "Star Trek Online."
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2012
Grinds are probably the most complained about yet the least understood aspect of modern games. Basically in this day in age players have gone to calling anything which is designed to give challenge and achievements within games a grind. Without "grinds" there would be no game. Every person would play the game for a few days and be done and gone.
I wouldn't ever call grinds in an MMO a cheap tactic. If rewards were effortless to gain there would be no point in playing.
It's sort of like good and evil. Good can not exist without evil just as evil can not exist without good. Good drops are defined by the bad ones and high levels are dtermined by the low levels.
The fact something takes time doesn't automatically define it as a grind. At the very least not as a bad one.
Furthermore grinding drops isn't comparable as per the legal definition of gambling. There's no real value staked when killing monsters for loot, only value to be earned. Essentially it's as if the player is drawing a card from a deck of cards...it's not gambling unless you "bet" on the outcome.
Games of chance are not gambling without the factor of wagering value on the outcome.
Trading Cards however is an interesting point. I hadn't thought of that before but it's still different because this is more akin to the "chest from the store" analogy I used. The big issue many of us have is if they give lockboxes as drops giving a subliminal message to buy keys to open the boxes. The urge to buy a key to open a chest you already possess if far higher than the desire to buy a random item from the shop.
It's perfectly fine to sell booster packs to anybody but the lockboxes is more akin to the cashier giving the person the booster pack and goading them with "this will probably have that card you want in it, just pay me the dollar and you can open it."
It's a tactic used all over but it's not a legal marketing tactic to do towards kids and more importantly is not a marketing decision which does anything but harm to the game itself.
Regardless of whether any company does it or if it makes money or not it hurts the gameplay of every game. Sure the profits can be pored back into content development but I will never consider it worth the price lockbox systems cost to every game's integrity.
It's a way for the company to make some money, but I'd be against it. There's a real joy in opening the loot chest in hopes of getting an item that a lot of people drool after. Selling items in virtual stores or making someone pay to see a "special" chest just unbalances the playing field, in my opinion because some will buy their way to glory. Too many people with the same loot. That's not D&D.
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nemesis788450Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2012
hulk angry b:angry
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enygmasoulMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2012
*hands the Hulk a margarita* Here, this will help, trust me.
Benefit of living in New Orleans, y'all, there's one of those around every corner
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use "
-- Galileo Galilei
Lockboxes? Aw hellz no. I plan to spend some money in the shop. Probably about as much as I'd have spent if I had a subscription; about $15/month or so. I really do want to support the game and I want them to be successful for taking a chance on an IP that I enjoy.
On the other hand, I really want to know what I'm getting for my money. I'd much rather not just spend my money and get nothing. I'll go for shared bank, and bank space and maybe some extra-large bags, and character slots and such. There will never be a point where I will have spent so much money on the game that I have nothing left to spend money on except to gamble it away.
Also, I enjoy getting quest rewards for doing the work. Getting small upgrades are a part of the constant reinforcement that makes an MMO fun. If I were to go out and buy a chest and actually get X-awesome-item then I'd definitely use it and since I could no longer look forward to upgrades for a long time (or ever) there would be less constant reinforcement for actually playing the game, which would make me less likely to want to play more. If you got the point where there are only a few items left that could be an upgrade for my character and some of those are rares in the lock boxes then you'd be opening them and pretty much throwing away everything else, which would mean that you'd be throwing tons of money at the game, which may be fine for someone else but not for someone on a limited budget like me.
I don't have a problem with other people who want to open thier lockboxes; I'm not super competitive most of the time. I realize that as a casual player there will always be someone out there who has better stuff than me. And if one of those guys got that stuff by dropping any amount of money on lock boxes then that's fine; it really doesn't affect me that much. Sucks to be them. And it keeps my portion of the game Free to Play.
This is very much like gambling. I used to work for a company that developed slot machine games and one of my duties as QA was to review the math sheets to verify that everything looked correct for submission to the testing labs.
In slot machines you put in money, you get money back. The amount of money you get back is known as the RTP (Return to Player). When the same currency goes in and out, calculating the RTP is fairly straightforward. Slot machines RTP are generally between 82% and 91% RTP, with the newer video slots able to be set individually by the owner.
When you put money in and you get an assortment of digital items out, then the RTP is infinitely more complex to ascertain. If a player wants a specific item then the community could get together to discern that the return on that item is a certain percent, but that doesn't take into account the mountains of loot and even other rares that you may get on the way there.
I suppose the RTP could be calculated as an average gold-piece value of all the gear that you get out of a box. I'd be interested in seeing how this all works out but I doubt the community will be organized enough to do that computation with any amount of expedience.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Lockboxes? Aw hellz no. I plan to spend some money in the shop. Probably about as much as I'd have spent if I had a subscription; about $15/month or so. I really do want to support the game and I want them to be successful for taking a chance on an IP that I enjoy.
On the other hand, I really want to know what I'm getting for my money. I'd much rather not just spend my money and get nothing. I'll go for shared bank, and bank space and maybe some extra-large bags, and character slots and such. There will never be a point where I will have spent so much money on the game that I have nothing left to spend money on except to gamble it away.
Also, I enjoy getting quest rewards for doing the work. Getting small upgrades are a part of the constant reinforcement that makes an MMO fun. If I were to go out and buy a chest and actually get X-awesome-item then I'd definitely use it and since I could no longer look forward to upgrades for a long time (or ever) there would be less constant reinforcement for actually playing the game, which would make me less likely to want to play more. If you got the point where there are only a few items left that could be an upgrade for my character and some of those are rares in the lock boxes then you'd be opening them and pretty much throwing away everything else, which would mean that you'd be throwing tons of money at the game, which may be fine for someone else but not for someone on a limited budget like me.
I don't have a problem with other people who want to open thier lockboxes; I'm not super competitive most of the time. I realize that as a casual player there will always be someone out there who has better stuff than me. And if one of those guys got that stuff by dropping any amount of money on lock boxes then that's fine; it really doesn't affect me that much. Sucks to be them. And it keeps my portion of the game Free to Play.
This is very much like gambling. I used to work for a company that developed slot machine games and one of my duties as QA was to review the math sheets to verify that everything looked correct for submission to the testing labs.
In slot machines you put in money, you get money back. The amount of money you get back is known as the RTP (Return to Player). When the same currency goes in and out, calculating the RTP is fairly straightforward. Slot machines RTP are generally between 82% and 91% RTP, with the newer video slots able to be set individually by the owner.
When you put money in and you get an assortment of digital items out, then the RTP is infinitely more complex to ascertain. If a player wants a specific item then the community could get together to discern that the return on that item is a certain percent, but that doesn't take into account the mountains of loot and even other rares that you may get on the way there.
I suppose the RTP could be calculated as an average gold-piece value of all the gear that you get out of a box. I'd be interested in seeing how this all works out but I doubt the community will be organized enough to do that computation with any amount of expedience.
While I could comment that tinyish's bolded red comments could be correlated to certain Intermittent Reinforcement, I can say the research into always digital rewards of varying amounts in a MMO gaming environment have not been widely known. Please do continue to talk about this more everybody. Who knows, it may open up a branch into a whole other level of society and gaming knowledge.
But my prior views on gambling personally still stand.
Grinds are probably the most complained about yet the least understood aspect of modern games. Basically in this day in age players have gone to calling anything which is designed to give challenge and achievements within games a grind. Without "grinds" there would be no game. Every person would play the game for a few days and be done and gone.
I wouldn't ever call grinds in an MMO a cheap tactic. If rewards were effortless to gain there would be no point in playing.
It's sort of like good and evil. Good can not exist without evil just as evil can not exist without good. Good drops are defined by the bad ones and high levels are dtermined by the low levels.
The fact something takes time doesn't automatically define it as a grind. At the very least not as a bad one.
Generally when people are talking about a grind it has nothing to do with the challenge or achievement of something. A challenge/achievement is beating that boss for the first time, is getting that achievement for killing a boss without touching his three miniboss friends, is getting through a pvp map with ten kills without dying once. I've never heard such things referred to as grinds- nor did I once hear the word grind used for console games before mmorpgs were big- when you would go through a story and -maybe- you'd have an occasion or two where you'd have to grind enemies for xp because a boss whooped you.
A grind as I see it is when you have a BiS set of armour where the helmet drops off boss 6 of raid 3, it has a 8% chance to drop and you have 5 other people who want it in your group. A grind is when you need 50 black iron bars to make ultra sword, and they each have a 2% chance of dropping off of dwarves which take half a minute to kill each. The only thing you achieve by grinding is showing that you are able to do a repetitive motion over and over and over in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, this time the roll will go your way, or in knowing that eventually, after 1000 dwarves, you're going to get that sword for sure.
Now that I think about it- grinding and gambling have very, very little different about them, both in excess can lead to serious addiction and both prey off the hopes that in time, chance will pay off.
I'd also say that the idea that a game must have grinds or people will stop playing has led to a stagnant market where new mmos keep popping up where the emphasis is greatly placed on grinding. Now, it's true to some extent- which I why I call it a cheap tactic- though 'easy' tactic is perhaps more correct. Grinds prolong the length of a game greatly without requiring much work.
However- if the user made content tools are good, a considerable amount of user content could make a game that has both variety and longevity in pve without necessary needing either a grind or PWE to make infinite dungeons. Provided the tools are good, there's interest in making content, and the game itself is sound and fun. PvP requires much less variety but tight balancing and smooth gameplay.
Currently- yes, many games are like WoW- you have relatively the same scenario play out again and again, and you deal with it the same way again and again- generally using the same tactic, same abilities, and facing the same story of 'boars are rampaging my watermelon patch, kill 10', etc...
It doesn't have to be that way- SWTOR, while suffering from similar combat problems of repetition and a limited amount of content- at least added in quests and stories that gave character to what you were doing. DDO did the same, but another thing to note is that every run was different- there were so many ways to play each class, and you had enough variety of tools to make fights different, particularly for magic users and rogues- where you fought, traps, mazes, respawning foes, your ally composition could make two runs of the same dungeon feel vastly different.
This is dungeons and dragons we're talking about- grinding is hack and slash at its simplest, with some tactics on bosses (almost always very set tactics)- and in WoW and similar games, there's only two types of groups- bad and good. D&D is about story, about creative ways to handle situations, and it is about far, far more than just monsters and loot- so I really hope grinding isn't the focus of the game.
Furthermore grinding drops isn't comparable as per the legal definition of gambling. There's no real value staked when killing monsters for loot, only value to be earned. Essentially it's as if the player is drawing a card from a deck of cards...it's not gambling unless you "bet" on the outcome.
Games of chance are not gambling without the factor of wagering value on the outcome.
Trading Cards however is an interesting point. I hadn't thought of that before but it's still different because this is more akin to the "chest from the store" analogy I used. The big issue many of us have is if they give lockboxes as drops giving a subliminal message to buy keys to open the boxes. The urge to buy a key to open a chest you already possess if far higher than the desire to buy a random item from the shop.
It's perfectly fine to sell booster packs to anybody but the lockboxes is more akin to the cashier giving the person the booster pack and goading them with "this will probably have that card you want in it, just pay me the dollar and you can open it."
It's a tactic used all over but it's not a legal marketing tactic to do towards kids and more importantly is not a marketing decision which does anything but harm to the game itself.
Regardless of whether any company does it or if it makes money or not it hurts the gameplay of every game. Sure the profits can be pored back into content development but I will never consider it worth the price lockbox systems cost to every game's integrity.
The internet and online gaming is not good for children, almost all studies show that, especially in a great amount of time. Having access to a credit card is not good for children. Those are all even worse when unsupervised entirely, before you even get to gambling through lockboxes.
Yes, having lockboxes drop is absolutely a hook- one used very widely across video games, gambling, toy stores and truly many things that have high amounts of popularity (ironically, isn't McDonalds Monopoly going on right now?). There may be no actual value staked yes- but there is a great amount of time spent on grinding in games- and people have died, lost jobs, been physically and emotionally effects by games that urge you to keep playing in the hopes of getting that loot- which may not have a monetary value, but have a value of some sort to the person trying to get it.
The thing to consider is- these games are designed as addictive hooks whether there's money involved or not- if you are truly concerned for your children don't let them play mmos- fact is it is not good for them anyway. A child who can get away with spending large amounts of money online gambling in a game is more than capable of spending that money on gambling sites, adult sites and probably even worse things.
The welfare of a child is slipping further and further out of the hands of parents as they continue to instead have companies take care of babyproofing everything- I think that's going to be something far, far more scary as parents seek more ways to take less responsibility and know less about their children.
Don't let your child play mmos, don't let them play completely unsupervised, don't give them a credit card, and monitor their transactions. All are completely reasonable methods to prevent your child from gambling on lock boxes- among a hundred other things they might be doing. Children need a degree of freedom yes, but they also need a degree of supervision and discipline- to me gambling off lockboxes just seems like another in a long list of witchhunt victims of parents looking for ways to explain why their child is bad that has nothing to do with their own parenting methods. Enabling that behaviour will not end well for today's youth.
Debating whether lock boxes should be in NW is pointless because there is no doubt they absolutely WILL be. The simple fact is, they make a ridiculous amount of money, and at the end of the day that is really all that matters to PW. No amount of begging, pleading, or well reasoned posting will even begin to change their minds.
Comments
Currently: Lilyth Lightlorn@dreasimy of Hammerfist Clan.
Formerly Neverwinterly Known As: Allsfaire of KORT ITB Lilyth Tr1sta of House Fey-Branche Sednablood of BDA NWT Cyane
I tried to separate the wall of text out with quotes. Hopefully this makes it a bit less imposing :-p
With all this said and done I don't consider lockboxes a deal breaker for me. I'd much prefer they never appeared in Neverwinter and if they did I would insist that they are 100% cosmetic with NO ITEMS of power but they would simply push the limits between what is acceptable rather than outright cross the boundary.
Honestly I find that giving any items of any true worth far worse than simply selling the items. Nothing I can't stand more than liars and people who mask the truth and that is what lockboxes will be if they have high quality items included. The randomized chances never negate the fact a company sells success for money.
I can't think of anything in a DnD setting that would require that much development time that could be sold in the zen store. Even mount shouldn't have the kind of balance and "powers" issues that a ship in STO does. It'll be interesting to see what things in NWO are being sold.
I want a +5 vorpal pair of shears of dancing that can give a great haircut on it's own in 4 rounds or less...
This city promises death for the meek, glory for the bold, danger for all, and riches for Jade!
Elven Trickster Rogue: Two-bladed elf, tons of stabby stabby and that sort of thing...
| R. A. Salvatore | My Minions | Forgotten Realms Wiki | Elven Translator |
Hello new moderator who might you be its nice to see a new person:)
Also, you should read what is in the radar for STO's next big patch. I don't have much hope for Neverwinter anymore. At least not for it becoming anything other han a huge set of grindfests that you can get some relief from only by spending money on Zen.
When STO's Season 7 patch comes out, depending on whether or not they've chosen to actually listen to their community, I may be washing my hands of Cryptic. And it will be very hard for me to be convinced to even bother trying NW, free or not. I am fed up with all the money grabs wrapped up in grindfests. I am beginning to wonder if they even know how to make a game anymore. Games are supposed to be fun, yet every decision they have made since perfect World took over has been one nutcracker after another. I wish it would stop.
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Actually, melanderi was here previously as a Developer or other Cryptic Staff person before (and you can still find his posts in the Dev tracker.)
I personally am happy to see him back since this person has a good mix of sensibility and humor. Of course, I might be a wee bit biased using those traits myself.
Okay, back to the topic.
My personal opinion (which may or may not reflect certain views of the companies of this game,) is I despise lock-boxes. Whether it's legally or morally allowed, it is gambling and I know all too well as a person working with social psychology how dangerous it can be whether it's a game or real life. One thing we can do to recognize it is put things like this in their own "isolated" environment, like one gambles in casinos and not everywhere. Addiction is more easily recognized this way, but is no guarantee somebody will get help. However, it's a lot easier when it's not liked to say video games and social media.
But it's a lot easier to look for these signs when you have the experience and the development to do so. Kids who will play this game will not. They are at a lot of risk when they lack the concepts to understand Skinner-based reactions like reinforcing stimulus or Skinner Boxes unless you have an app that's tending to describe this.
And respectfully, kids will find ways to access things like credit cards and in-game purchasing not appreciating any dangers except "don't get caught" for the most part if peer pressured or hooked not appreciating the consequences (until many ave to pay for stuff every month or risk going broke/hungry/homeless on their own. ) Their literally developing minds are exceptionally impressionable to setting in bad ways at that age. Most parents are working jobs just to pay what they used to and wouldn't even think of any "dangers" of video games besides violence and sometimes sex. I'd love to be wrong on this, but many parents would simply not "think of or even get this game point" I'm making here it being not easily noticed unless the parents play the game enough to see this drop and look for warning signs like a parent would say, look for signs of a predatory nature (look for subtle things not saying this is in any way like child predation or as life threatening.)
Another thing that bugged me is in STO, the boxes you paid for were so horribly never worth the price of a key even bought in bulk. I don't mean everybody winning a top tier item, but the standard items were crappy (IMHO.)
Next in STO the boxes popped up all the damn time flooding my inventory and became even a nuisance to delete they got so frequent. Maybe just maybe if they had an option to earn a key through game-play the way you got secondary currency to buy cash shop points, but even this I fear could cause "get a taste and you're hooked" gambling mentality for any game.
Next is the issue I have with theme. While I could be persuaded Ferengi could do this for profit (in STO,) this goes against the whole of D&D. We don't seek out NPC's and pay them coin for a gamble at something better only they can open. Bluntly, it's just not done in D&D. Even if somebody could find this, it's fringe and nowhere near accepted let alone popularly accepted.
All this written though, it saddens me to write I wouldn't be surprised if these boxes show up anyway under whatever "cosmetic" justification.
One final plea to the company:
League of Legends is a fantasy game and it never uses gambling and is very successful in its micro-transactions. Please remember that and consider just saying no to the lock boxes.
Thank you.
I want Andahar, and Guenhwyvar, and Twinkle and Icingdeath and a bunny named George, so I can love him and pet him and....
i could use those about now...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg
Yes, it is the gratuitous Monty Python reference caused by the mention of bunnies.
And I prefer to avoid allowing Vorpal anything near my head, whoever created Vorpal Shears that provide haircuts redefines in game gambling.
Andre,
from my previous experience with cryptic, i would not quote stormshade or any other staff member even the Exec producer and above to valid any of your points.
they have tendencies to change their mind and "forget" what they said earlier...when you remind them they are going to pretext the game has evolved and what was said in the past is in the past and we should all move on as well...
They store, taking up the space. If you have it, you will have it until you open, delete, or sell, and they only stack to 20 at a time.
Aye. Also, whenever they updated the possible contents in them, they retroactively updated all similar past locked boxes too. Meaning, that the ones you collected and never opened were also updated by such patches.
As well, in STO at least, there are and have been varying types of locked boxes that have varying reward tables. Such as Cardassian Locked Boxes, Ferengi Locked Boxes, and Tholian Locked Boxes.
These all came with a minimum of 1 Lobi Crystal when opened and had a chance of containing one type of special ship. Some had multiple types of ships that it could contain. Also, among the loot chances were such things as food, consumables, ship gear as well as very rare ship devices.
The Lobi Crystals are the newest type of "special" currency in STO that are used to trade in for special gear, cosmetics, pets, and ships from a Ferengi Lobi Crystal Trader. You can only get Lobi Crystals by opening Locked Boxes and they are also Bind to Character upon looting.
I truly hope, that if Locked Boxes make it into Neverwinter, they leave out Gear or anything that affects game balance and mechanics, unlike what they've done in STO. I hope they keep any potential rewards to things like Non-combat Pets, Mounts and Cosmetics. However, as I said, I'd much rather they just not put Locked Boxes in Neverwinter at all and instead just sell such possible contents straight up on the Cash Shop. I loathe the fact that if I wanted one of these special ships or devices in STO, that I'd have to either gamble with my money or rely on someone else to gamble with their money and then sell them for ridiculously high prices on the Market.
Which also is a money gimick in itself, in my opinion, for in order to afford to pay the Tens of Millions of Energy Credits people want for these ships and gear, I would need to pay 1000 Zen to make it so my bank and bags can even hold that much money. As a free play, you're limited to 10,000,000 EC.
I do suppose I am a bit jaded too, having opened 22 of these boxes in STO and not one contained anything I wanted. I did get a few of the rare ship devices but they are useless to me and I cannot even sell them for the prices they are going for because my bank cannot hold that many energy credits. I just wanted the Cardassian Ship and the Ferengi Ship, which out of 22 boxes, not one contained a single ship. In RTM value, 22 keys would be well over the price of the most expensive ship in the Cash Shop.
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Take STo for example, when the store only put new ships, uniforms etc.. in the Cstore I gladly spent money and bought almost all of them because if I saw something I liked I had total control and could buy it or not as I liked.
then lockboxes reared thier heads and rather than givinng us the option of buying the new content we want or not suddenly we have a "loot lottery" setup where best you can hope for is a tiny chance of getting what you want.
I find them a despicable way of generating revenue, in much the same way as all gambling..encouraging that "just one more mentality..maybe THIS one will be the one". Its pretty poor.
Give us the control of our purchases back, let us choose to buy ALL new content or not as we choose, don't serve it in a lottery format where 9 times out 10 we wont get squat but you will still have pocketed our dime...let me have something to show for the money I spend on the game rather than a sour taste in my mouth at having gotten squat..yet again.
To begin with, I LOVE gambling online and in games (Fallout:NV gambling RULED) but I never use real money in gambling. I'd rather use fake currency and the idea that you have to use real money to potentially get things you like is BS. I'm all for lockboxes for those who like a little chance, but don't make them the only way of getting the things I want. When I spend RL money, it's on things I want. If you're selling rare gear in the first place, the games broken, so that shouldn't be a problem. Give me a choice to gamble or to buy things as I wish, not one or the other. And if they do lockboxes, I had BETTER see some with Lolth drawings on it.
I think this is the huge difference between 'random chance' and gambling. Earlier in the thread some had expressed views stating (paraphrased) what is the difference between random loot and lockboxes.
Well the difference is whether I have to pay real money or not. The legal definition of gambling I linked earlier definitively declares that gambling occurs when a person wagers a value with an uncertainty in return value.
If any company implemented a lockbox in which I needed to pay virtual currency in order to open the chest I wouldn't mind what-so-ever, but if lockboxes were to be incorporated into a system which forced me to spend money or store credit I feel it crosses the line into gambling. The best way I can describe this is to show how some relationships are only one way relationships. For instance a puppy is a dog but a dog is not a puppy.
To me all virtual items have a unique value. Spending virtual value in order to achieve a random virtual value is not gambling but spending real life value in order to obtain a random virtual value is absolutely gambling.
In any case I sadly agree with Truthseeker. The bottom line is regardless of any opposition these sickening products make money and as stormdragon mentioned even those who oppose them spend money on the tactics.
Some of you have expressed you will not spend money on lockboxes if they are implemented and you have a great deal of respect from me for that but for myself, as much as I despise the tactics, I'll likely spend cash on them...
And that's the sad part...it's a cheap and immoral tactic which works and so no matter how much players don't want them they will likely be implemented into more and more games until trade laws accept that in the modern world virtual products have a value regardless of their lack of comprehension.
My point is- why get outraged about 'gambling' in this game, where at the least you need an online way to pay to purchase lockboxes, when every toy store in the country has been using the exact same method for years to sell what are some of the most popular toys in the country.
Whether it is a cheap tactic is moot- randomized gear that drops 1% of the time or less is a cheap tactic to make you keep buying monthly subs yet 99% of mmos use that tactic.
I'd be more concerned with this thought- are they going to make the game's enjoyment depend largely on buying things- whether straight out or through gambling- or will the game be fun whether you pay zero or hundreds? If the game is designed around hundred hour boring grinds that can be bypassed using the cash shop- that's an issue, doesn't matter if I gamble for it or just fork out the money.
Another thing- is there anything proving that gambling on lock boxes in games actually does significantly put you more at risk of developing problem gambling later in life? I hear that argument being used, but I haven't seen any proof that makes it worse than the randomization shoved down our throats from regular mmo gear grinding, trading cards or highly luck based games like Pokemon.
The basis of Internet-based "gambling" can be perused at this paper published in 2004. Page six does a good job of mentioning what an Electronic Gambling Device (EGD) is, and how to differentiate those who have gambling issues against "other internet obsessions." Another article or this paper deals more on the MMORPG risk-reward in 2005. However, neither deal with both the addiction of gambling and its access through an MMORPG as that feature was not widely implemented back then. Then this article was published for 2012 both addressing the online addictiveness of online MMO games and onling gambling in games.
My prior post is worried about this:
However information after this gets...quite academic as in "wonk" level psychology detailed.
Those who are worried about being hooked on MMO's and paying real money but looking for "less academic replies" can find things here at MMORPG, here at CNRPG, here at twoplustwo, and of course a forum post on STO. The negative backlash of minors mirroring gambling and governmental regulation can be seen in a Japanese MMO game (writen in English) article done in two parts: Part 1 Part 2. Before somebody mentions this is Japan/Asian MMO thinking, let me highlight one part that should be quite an eerie warning to what is being done here:
Any player of STO/CO now knows what this is like, almost exactly as mentioned above. Also, part 1 mentions now Denmark is looking to Outlaw this entire gambling concept in game. PWE's answer to the "sub-par" prises? Offer losing prizes which are linked to building star bases and re-enforcing the addictive traits in a group format.
Okay, I think that's enough for now. Hope that shows both an academic and social correlation.
I wouldn't ever call grinds in an MMO a cheap tactic. If rewards were effortless to gain there would be no point in playing.
It's sort of like good and evil. Good can not exist without evil just as evil can not exist without good. Good drops are defined by the bad ones and high levels are dtermined by the low levels.
The fact something takes time doesn't automatically define it as a grind. At the very least not as a bad one.
Furthermore grinding drops isn't comparable as per the legal definition of gambling. There's no real value staked when killing monsters for loot, only value to be earned. Essentially it's as if the player is drawing a card from a deck of cards...it's not gambling unless you "bet" on the outcome.
Games of chance are not gambling without the factor of wagering value on the outcome.
Trading Cards however is an interesting point. I hadn't thought of that before but it's still different because this is more akin to the "chest from the store" analogy I used. The big issue many of us have is if they give lockboxes as drops giving a subliminal message to buy keys to open the boxes. The urge to buy a key to open a chest you already possess if far higher than the desire to buy a random item from the shop.
It's perfectly fine to sell booster packs to anybody but the lockboxes is more akin to the cashier giving the person the booster pack and goading them with "this will probably have that card you want in it, just pay me the dollar and you can open it."
It's a tactic used all over but it's not a legal marketing tactic to do towards kids and more importantly is not a marketing decision which does anything but harm to the game itself.
Regardless of whether any company does it or if it makes money or not it hurts the gameplay of every game. Sure the profits can be pored back into content development but I will never consider it worth the price lockbox systems cost to every game's integrity.
Benefit of living in New Orleans, y'all, there's one of those around every corner
-- Galileo Galilei
On the other hand, I really want to know what I'm getting for my money. I'd much rather not just spend my money and get nothing. I'll go for shared bank, and bank space and maybe some extra-large bags, and character slots and such. There will never be a point where I will have spent so much money on the game that I have nothing left to spend money on except to gamble it away.
Also, I enjoy getting quest rewards for doing the work. Getting small upgrades are a part of the constant reinforcement that makes an MMO fun. If I were to go out and buy a chest and actually get X-awesome-item then I'd definitely use it and since I could no longer look forward to upgrades for a long time (or ever) there would be less constant reinforcement for actually playing the game, which would make me less likely to want to play more. If you got the point where there are only a few items left that could be an upgrade for my character and some of those are rares in the lock boxes then you'd be opening them and pretty much throwing away everything else, which would mean that you'd be throwing tons of money at the game, which may be fine for someone else but not for someone on a limited budget like me.
I don't have a problem with other people who want to open thier lockboxes; I'm not super competitive most of the time. I realize that as a casual player there will always be someone out there who has better stuff than me. And if one of those guys got that stuff by dropping any amount of money on lock boxes then that's fine; it really doesn't affect me that much. Sucks to be them. And it keeps my portion of the game Free to Play.
In slot machines you put in money, you get money back. The amount of money you get back is known as the RTP (Return to Player). When the same currency goes in and out, calculating the RTP is fairly straightforward. Slot machines RTP are generally between 82% and 91% RTP, with the newer video slots able to be set individually by the owner.
When you put money in and you get an assortment of digital items out, then the RTP is infinitely more complex to ascertain. If a player wants a specific item then the community could get together to discern that the return on that item is a certain percent, but that doesn't take into account the mountains of loot and even other rares that you may get on the way there.
I suppose the RTP could be calculated as an average gold-piece value of all the gear that you get out of a box. I'd be interested in seeing how this all works out but I doubt the community will be organized enough to do that computation with any amount of expedience.
While I could comment that tinyish's bolded red comments could be correlated to certain Intermittent Reinforcement, I can say the research into always digital rewards of varying amounts in a MMO gaming environment have not been widely known. Please do continue to talk about this more everybody. Who knows, it may open up a branch into a whole other level of society and gaming knowledge.
But my prior views on gambling personally still stand.
Generally when people are talking about a grind it has nothing to do with the challenge or achievement of something. A challenge/achievement is beating that boss for the first time, is getting that achievement for killing a boss without touching his three miniboss friends, is getting through a pvp map with ten kills without dying once. I've never heard such things referred to as grinds- nor did I once hear the word grind used for console games before mmorpgs were big- when you would go through a story and -maybe- you'd have an occasion or two where you'd have to grind enemies for xp because a boss whooped you.
A grind as I see it is when you have a BiS set of armour where the helmet drops off boss 6 of raid 3, it has a 8% chance to drop and you have 5 other people who want it in your group. A grind is when you need 50 black iron bars to make ultra sword, and they each have a 2% chance of dropping off of dwarves which take half a minute to kill each. The only thing you achieve by grinding is showing that you are able to do a repetitive motion over and over and over in the hopes that maybe, just maybe, this time the roll will go your way, or in knowing that eventually, after 1000 dwarves, you're going to get that sword for sure.
Now that I think about it- grinding and gambling have very, very little different about them, both in excess can lead to serious addiction and both prey off the hopes that in time, chance will pay off.
I'd also say that the idea that a game must have grinds or people will stop playing has led to a stagnant market where new mmos keep popping up where the emphasis is greatly placed on grinding. Now, it's true to some extent- which I why I call it a cheap tactic- though 'easy' tactic is perhaps more correct. Grinds prolong the length of a game greatly without requiring much work.
However- if the user made content tools are good, a considerable amount of user content could make a game that has both variety and longevity in pve without necessary needing either a grind or PWE to make infinite dungeons. Provided the tools are good, there's interest in making content, and the game itself is sound and fun. PvP requires much less variety but tight balancing and smooth gameplay.
Currently- yes, many games are like WoW- you have relatively the same scenario play out again and again, and you deal with it the same way again and again- generally using the same tactic, same abilities, and facing the same story of 'boars are rampaging my watermelon patch, kill 10', etc...
It doesn't have to be that way- SWTOR, while suffering from similar combat problems of repetition and a limited amount of content- at least added in quests and stories that gave character to what you were doing. DDO did the same, but another thing to note is that every run was different- there were so many ways to play each class, and you had enough variety of tools to make fights different, particularly for magic users and rogues- where you fought, traps, mazes, respawning foes, your ally composition could make two runs of the same dungeon feel vastly different.
This is dungeons and dragons we're talking about- grinding is hack and slash at its simplest, with some tactics on bosses (almost always very set tactics)- and in WoW and similar games, there's only two types of groups- bad and good. D&D is about story, about creative ways to handle situations, and it is about far, far more than just monsters and loot- so I really hope grinding isn't the focus of the game.
The internet and online gaming is not good for children, almost all studies show that, especially in a great amount of time. Having access to a credit card is not good for children. Those are all even worse when unsupervised entirely, before you even get to gambling through lockboxes.
Yes, having lockboxes drop is absolutely a hook- one used very widely across video games, gambling, toy stores and truly many things that have high amounts of popularity (ironically, isn't McDonalds Monopoly going on right now?). There may be no actual value staked yes- but there is a great amount of time spent on grinding in games- and people have died, lost jobs, been physically and emotionally effects by games that urge you to keep playing in the hopes of getting that loot- which may not have a monetary value, but have a value of some sort to the person trying to get it.
The thing to consider is- these games are designed as addictive hooks whether there's money involved or not- if you are truly concerned for your children don't let them play mmos- fact is it is not good for them anyway. A child who can get away with spending large amounts of money online gambling in a game is more than capable of spending that money on gambling sites, adult sites and probably even worse things.
The welfare of a child is slipping further and further out of the hands of parents as they continue to instead have companies take care of babyproofing everything- I think that's going to be something far, far more scary as parents seek more ways to take less responsibility and know less about their children.
Don't let your child play mmos, don't let them play completely unsupervised, don't give them a credit card, and monitor their transactions. All are completely reasonable methods to prevent your child from gambling on lock boxes- among a hundred other things they might be doing. Children need a degree of freedom yes, but they also need a degree of supervision and discipline- to me gambling off lockboxes just seems like another in a long list of witchhunt victims of parents looking for ways to explain why their child is bad that has nothing to do with their own parenting methods. Enabling that behaviour will not end well for today's youth.