Lock Boxes:Yay or Nay?

wraithshadow13

So recently Champions online received the infamous lockbox from Star Trek Online. They're getting a lot of negative attention as it's $1.25 sto $1 co for a key to open a box that drops as common loot, with the chance of various also common loot with a very rare grand prize.


Obviously i'm already biased against them, but what does everyone here think? Would you like them in game or are you opposed to this idea?

If yay tell us what you would like to see in them as prizes

If nay tell us why you don't want them

lyfebane

I do not think they should, though obviously enough poeple buy the keys for them that they will likely want to put it in. I do not like the pay for luck idea.

I would perfer they just had these items in the shop and you could choose what you wanted, possible as a bundle, but least you can choose if it is worth it or not, lockboxes more often than not are not worth it (item not good or not useful to that character or even wanted by other players), so I do not buy keys now.

I think it would be better that they put thought into what players might want item wise and then put them in shop, as an extra they could add a random freeby to every purchase, normally maybe a few potions but could be up to a epic items (found in game or shop), which might make using the shop more fun.

aandrethegiant

Nay. This is Dungeons & Dragons. We've utilized chests for decades.. since SSI's Pool of Radiance as far as I can remember. No need to re-invent the wheel here. I feel gear/loot belongs in chests, not in the cash shop and most certainly not in user purchasable lock boxes.

"Lock boxes" will give it too much of a cheesy generic mmo cash shop feel...

Keep the Neverwinter cash shop as promised, vanity and consumables (and extra character slots/bank space/inventory space/slots etc).

"There are no plans to make a quick dime off of players who just have to have that +5 suit of magical plate armor that just so happens to be wearable as cloth armor... Nor will will be selling other types of "power"." -- Stormshade

This rules out lockboxes, period. I hope.

Storm's most recent comment in it's entirety:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stormshade
We have no plans to sell the +5 Radiant Vorpal Sword of Immediate Dragon Slaying in Neverwinter.

There are no plans to make a quick dime off of players who just have to have that +5 suit of magical plate armor that just so happens to be wearable as cloth armor, and have a ridiculous amount of health regen and the ability to store any 6 spells of your choice for a 24 hours period of time.

Nor will will be selling other types of "power".

In short, pay to win is not what we want Neverwinter to be.

Thanks,

Stormshade

zebular

wraithshadow13 wrote: »

Would you like them in game or are you opposed to this idea?

If nay tell us why you don't want them

Nay, I really am disgusted by such gambling. In my opinion, this is allowing under-age kids gamble with their money or their parents money, which under-age gambling is illegal in the United States. I still do not understand how these lock boxes can be legal in the United States, granted I am not a lawyer. People will say that their parents are allowing it or should keep a better eye on their kids. However, if a parent allowed their kid to walk in and buy a lottery ticket and/or the clerk sold it to them, that doesn't make it legal or right.

As well, I would much rather see contained items instead just sold in the Cash Shop rather than offering them to us by gambling.

Please, keep Lock Boxes out of Neverwinter. They do not belong here, or in any game that allows children to play. This is Dungeons & Dragons, please keep the cash shop to cosmetics and fluff and refrain from the cash cow mentality and do not promote gambling to under age kids.

That's just my opinion and with my past experiences with locked boxes in STO, I will not participate in locked boxes in Neverwinter, should that appear here as well.

kamaliicious

aandrethegiant wrote: »

Nay. This is Dungeons & Dragons. We've utilized chests for decades.. since SSI's Pool of Radiance as far as I can remember. No need to re-invent the wheel here. I feel gear/loot belongs in chests, not in the cash shop and most certainly not in user purchasable lock boxes.

"Lock boxes" will give it too much of a cheesy generic mmo cash shop feel...

Keep the Neverwinter cash shop as promised, vanity and consumables (and extra character slots/bank space/inventory space/slots etc).

"There are no plans to make a quick dime off of players who just have to have that +5 suit of magical plate armor that just so happens to be wearable as cloth armor... Nor will will be selling other types of "power"." -- Stormshade

This rules out lockboxes, period. I hope.

Storm's most recent comment in it's entirety:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stormshade
We have no plans to sell the +5 Radiant Vorpal Sword of Immediate Dragon Slaying in Neverwinter.

There are no plans to make a quick dime off of players who just have to have that +5 suit of magical plate armor that just so happens to be wearable as cloth armor, and have a ridiculous amount of health regen and the ability to store any 6 spells of your choice for a 24 hours period of time.

Nor will will be selling other types of "power".

In short, pay to win is not what we want Neverwinter to be.

Thanks,

Stormshade

With the luck factor, it's a slow dime.

lorddevilkun

zebular wrote: »

Nay, I really am disgusted by such gambling. In my opinion, this is allowing under-age kids gamble with their money or their parents money, which under-age gambling is illegal in the United States. I still do not understand how these lock boxes can be legal in the United States, granted I am not a lawyer. People will say that their parents are allowing it or should keep a better eye on their kids. However, if a parent allowed their kid to walk in and buy a lottery ticket and/or the clerk sold it to them, that doesn't make it legal or right.

As well, I would much rather see contained items instead just sold in the Cash Shop rather than offering them to us by gambling.

Please, keep Lock Boxes out of Neverwinter. They do not belong here, or in any game that allows children to play. This is Dungeons & Dragons, please keep the cash shop to cosmetics and fluff and refrain from the cash cow mentality and do not promote gambling to under age kids.

In general it requires a credit card, which underage children don't have, to make such purchases online. That and it is not gambling because you are not putting in money to make money- you're buying an item online. If 'random chance' was considered gambling, then any sort of purchasable randomized item would be completely unable to be used in any game for that reason.

To get technical- if you're buying a key and not the random chance item (in this case lockbox) then it isn't actually gambling. Look at for example GW2, which also uses this. Unidentified dyes and black lion unidentified chests/keys can be bought for real money through their auction house- also complete gambling as the dyes could be worth ten cents or five dollars depending on luck, and that's a game that is far more likely to be played by little kids than NWO, and since nearly everything is tradable there actually is a money to money chance through that type of gambling in GW2.

In a store, there's a clerk there to identify a child- but, the store still sells cigarettes and lottery tickets, it doesn't say 'there are children in the world, we can't sell anything they can't use.' If we're to start saying 'children can access things they shouldn't on the internet, so everything illegal for kids should be removed' you immediately are saying goodbye to almost the entire net. In fact, chances are there'll be violence, alcohol, etc... in the game that isn't allowed for some children to see technically.

What's disgusting is that there's a call to censure things because a child might do it if the parent isn't paying attention. If you're concerned about your child that much, keep watch or don't let them play it, or at least don't give them access to a credit card, or at the least monitor it- if your child has a monetary account that you cannot monitor their purchases with, online gambling in a video game is going to be by far the least of your worries. The only thing encouraging children to underage gamble or whatever is lax parenting- which I don't think should be a video game company's concern, and nor do I think it should punish responsible adults.

That said, while I think 'think of the childrenz!' is one of the worst reasons for a company making any game that doesn't involve fluffy pink ponies to not do something- I can't say I'm a fan of randomized loot containers costing something. GW2 has the worst way, where you get lots of chest drops in game you just can't open until you fork over the cash- if it is in, at least just make it a store only box of randoms. Making the items inside purchasable is a good idea too, as said- no good loot in the boxes.

If it's in though, I don't think it's a bad thing- this game is free in all aspects, they have to make money somehow- that means selling some things that in other p2p games are free. And while I think it's a stupid feature I wouldn't use, there's obviously many people who like it and I see no reason why they shouldn't get what they want when it has next to no effect on my gameplay.

zebular

Everything in your post, save for the quote below, I can understand and do not dispute. However, the quote is an argument I have heard time and time again through out the years and one I find to be something I do not agree with. It has nothing to do with such a situation and I see it as fetching for straws, so to speak, to try and prove some sort of negative to an argument.

In a store, there's a clerk there to identify a child- but, the store still sells cigarettes and lottery tickets, it doesn't say 'there are children in the world, we can't sell anything they can't use.' If we're to start saying 'children can access things they shouldn't on the internet, so everything illegal for kids should be removed' you immediately are saying goodbye to almost the entire net. In fact, chances are there'll be violence, alcohol, etc... in the game that isn't allowed for some children to see technically.

What's disgusting is that there's a call to censure things because a child might do it if the parent isn't paying attention. If you're concerned about your child that much, keep watch or don't let them play it, or at least don't give them access to a credit card, or at the least monitor it- if your child has a monetary account that you cannot monitor their purchases with, online gambling in a video game is going to be by far the least of your worries. The only thing encouraging children to underage gamble or whatever is lax parenting- which I don't think should be a video game company's concern, and nor do I think it should punish responsible adults.

That said, while I think 'think of the childrenz!' is one of the worst reasons for a company making any game that doesn't involve fluffy pink ponies to not do something-

Anywho, I'm not one to argue opinions with others. I've stated mine and don't see why it would need to be picked apart. I respect the information elsewhere in the post, I just don't like to see anyone's opinion picked apart and degraded with an argument that has no real validity other than trying to discredit another's opinion with some form of hypothetical situation that has no bearing upon the opinion at hand.

As well, to nit-pick and only comment on that one opinion in a way that makes it sound like that is the only reason I am against it, is not a very nice way to make an argument. The statement you singled out is only one reason why I am against it. As I stated, I'd like to see the cash shop remain cosmetic and fluff only. I'd also much rather see any contents that would be in such boxes be instead just placed into the cash shop, instead of having us gamble with luck.

I wouldn't be as hard against the boxes if they would only contain fluff and cosmetic items, I still wouldn't participate with them however.

stormdrag0n

I never thought about them much one way or the other...I have friends who like and spend quite a bit of money on them, my philosophy on such things ( and save the counter points because you're not going to sway my opinion) is like my opinion on raffles, lotto, casinos or Monte Carlo night at the church; I don't participate in it, but I think it's draconian to force my will on those that enjoy such things.

As far as the whole "think of the children" argument, that's what parents are for and quite frankly there are enough busy bodies trying to telling people how their children should be raised.

Now I know this isn't the popular opinion but it is my opinion, what I do find hypocritical is I know personally one of the major anti- lock box people on the STO forums, I also know he spends an ungodly amount on keys each month...and I bet that is more common than not, kinda like the right wing evangelist screaming about the brothel while also being a top patron.

In saying that I don't think they are going to have lock boxes, I have heard (keep in mind this is just a rumor) that they are going to offer Fourtune card packs, these will work just like the fortune cards in the 4th ed game come 8 to a pack and provide temp benefits, the upside is they can be traded on the Auction house, if that is true we can expect a phenomenal amount of cash flowing through the C store.

I can hear the howls and screams of protest already. b:scorn

gillrmn

lockboxes are optional. As long as they contain convenience items and not +5 vorpal sword I don't think stromshade ruled them out.

lyfebane

I think you got it there, it is the things droping in game that you can not use unless you pay that I do not like.

If in the cash shop they had a say "lottery" where you buy a ticket at a fraction of the cost of say "that must have mount" with the chnace to win it (or equilvent cash ype/amount) I would probably not mind, posssible might even try it a few times. For Zebular could have a check for date of birth so that under 18s cant not use. Though it likely would not happen due to various gambling laws.

I think a middle ground idea could be buy a chest (instead of lock box) from the shop with random chance of items, but gauranteed some useful items, like potions of ? *5 scroll of ? *5 + random item. now the potions and scrolls would cost say 100 zen if bought together, the chest then might cost 150 zen, but the lowest random being 5 more potions random (cost bought 30-50 zen). Generally your going to get more potions/scrolls, but the random chance of something better would mean poeple would likely buy it as they do not really lose, but its 50 more zen than they might have spent.

now for more ideas hire me.

edit, wow spent so long writting that other replied before me, fortune cards might be interestings. though how it would work ina fast paced mmo I am not sure.

aandrethegiant

zebular wrote: »

Nay, I really am disgusted by such gambling. In my opinion, this is allowing under-age kids gamble with their money or their parents money, which under-age gambling is illegal in the United States.

It really is. There is no difference between pulling a lever on a gambling device in Las Vegas seeking a jackpot or purchasing a "lockbox" in an MMO seeking a jackpot.

In fact, there should be no way to even use Zen period without a legal guardian making the purchase for the child. As a father of two children, I wont even let them have access to the cash shop (in DDO), and neither should PW/Cryptic.

I honestly believe that characters created by a child should have the cash shop disabled by default. Password protect it, make it the default option.

Someday MMO publishers may get themselves in trouble with the law in this regard, and in fact the first step may be made by the IRS. Governments may start paying more attention to MMOs for one simple reason: money.

Sidebar: RMAHs are even worse.
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Gamer-Loses-186-Diablo-3-RMAH-Requests-FBI-Assistance-44675.html

Bottom line PW/Cryptic, please keep lock boxes out of Neverwinter.

aandrethegiant

stormdrag0n wrote: »

I never thought about them much one way or the other...I have friends who like and spend quite a bit of money on them, my philosophy on such things ( and save the counter points because you're not going to sway my opinion) is like my opinion on raffles, lotto, casinos or Monte Carlo night at the church; I don't participate in it, but I think it's draconian to force my will on those that enjoy such things.

If you want to gamble Stormdragon, that's perfectly within your right to do business with a licensed gambling organization. Lock boxes are gambling you cannot separate the two. Gambling has nothing to do with Dungeons & Dragons, and I think its wrong to build in this feature for those of all age groups.

stormdrag0n

aandrethegiant wrote: »

If you want to gamble Stormdragon, that's perfectly within your right to do business with a licensed gambling organization. Lock boxes are gambling you cannot separate the two. Gambling has nothing to do with Dungeons & Dragons, and I think its wrong to build in this feature for those of all age groups.

I like how you totally missed where I said I don't personally use them, the only difference is you want to force your personal ethos on others while I don't

Lets just leave it at that okay?

aandrethegiant

lorddevilkun wrote: »

What's disgusting is that there's a call to censure things because a child might do it if the parent isn't paying attention.

Are you a parent? I am. I also have a handle on what my kids are allowed to do on the internet. But the large majority of parents I know wish to safeguard our kids best we can, whether they are our kids or not. That's just being a good human being.

Zebular brings up a great point. MMO publishers know full well that most parents don't have a handle on things like this, and publishers take full advantage of it because they know they will make a lot of money. Worse some just don't understand that a kid constantly gambling for gear in a game can lead them to gambling problems later in life as an adult. It feeds the need, years before a kid knows any better.

Solution? Don't include lock boxes period because it's not a traditional D&D item.. and that solves the issue of minors learning the ropes of gambling while playing this MMO. I'd also like a password protected feature included that enables parents to turn off the cash shop while their child plays.

The publicity alone a feature like this would garner would be astounding, and PW/Cryptic would gain instant credibility and respect as responsible leaders in the field.

aandrethegiant

stormdrag0n wrote: »

I like how you totally missed where I said I don't personally use them, the only difference is you want to force your personal ethos on others while I don't

Lets just leave it at that okay?

What!? It's not about you. You are an adult. It's about protecting children.

I don't care what you do.

aandrethegiant

stormdrag0n wrote: »

In saying that I don't think they are going to have lock boxes, I have heard (keep in mind this is just a rumor) that they are going to offer Fourtune card packs, these will work just like the fortune cards in the 4th ed game come 8 to a pack and provide temp benefits, the upside is they can be traded on the Auction house, if that is true we can expect a phenomenal amount of cash flowing through the C store.

I can hear the howls and screams of protest already. b:scorn

I'd be ok with this, since this is a licensed D&D product, however, since it's potentially going to be part of the cash shop, I'd like to see them included with a parental control option to block. A little checkbox would be fine.

aandrethegiant

mosnacky01 wrote: »

It's not your job to protect other parents children, it's up to the individual parent to say what is acceptable and what isn't.

Absolutely, I am for a feature that gives parents a choice. Your opinion gives parents NO choice.

lyfebane

ooh train hit for CRIT! damage by derail!


And noone said anything about my idea....I feel so small. or it was just so silly noone bother to even consider it.

stormdrag0n

lyfebane wrote: »

ooh train hit for CRIT! damage by derail!


And noone said anything about my idea....I feel so small. or it was just so silly noone bother to even consider it.

You're not small and I think it's a interesting idea...and yeah derails suck.

aandrethegiant

lyfebane wrote: »

ooh train hit for CRIT! damage by derail!


And noone said anything about my idea....I feel so small. or it was just so silly noone bother to even consider it.

LOL! +5 Wet Noodle of Guilt? Confirmed crit!


I liked your idea. It depends what those items are of course. I'd be against offering magical gear in the cash shop. Magical gear/items should be in chests only.

lyfebane

*feels much happier now*b:pleased

was thinking more fancy mounts, ring of teleportation thats sort of thing. maybe helm costume (basically nice equipement graphic that could be used in a custome slot?) (edit)and anything else non armor/weapons found in shop.

train re-railing skill increases! +1

aandrethegiant

lyfebane wrote: »

*feels much happier now*b:pleased

was thinking more fancy mounts, ring of teleportation thats sort of thing. maybe helm costume (basically nice equipement graphic that could be used in a custome slot?)

Good Lyfe! Yes, that would be great. : )

stormdrag0n

aandrethegiant wrote: »

I'd be ok with this, since this is a licensed D&D product, however, since it's potentially going to be part of the cash shop, I'd like to see them included with a parental control option to block. A little checkbox would be fine.

That could work and is a viable option, but personally I think it would be fair to include those in treasure chest every once in awhile so people don't feel like they have to spend real money on them, it gives more options I think.

aandrethegiant

stormdrag0n wrote: »

That could work and is a viable option, but personally I think it would be fair to include those in treasure chest every once in awhile so people don't feel like they have to spend real money on them, it gives more options I think.

Definitely. I'll agree with that. Yeah, pretty much everything should be available in chest. People will gleefully use the cash shop on some items if they want it "now".

stormdrag0n

aandrethegiant wrote: »

Definitely. I'll agree with that. Yeah, pretty much everything should be available in chest. People will gleefully use the cash shop on some items if they want it "now".

Exactly people are not going to not use the cash shop, after buying my Life time sub to sto I thought I would never go beyond my monthly stipend...boy was I wrong, and that is pretty much the norm.

lyfebane

ALso things should be for account use (or atleast that server), not just that char... nothing more annoying than finding you have pay again for another char.

aandrethegiant

Did you just say lifetime sub?

b:cry I feel for ya there man.

gillrmn

ok, I skipped last few comments, but it is a very valid doubt about 'gambling'. I don't believe it would be illegal as cryptic lawyers would have already found any loophole etc. But, yes it may not be perceived ethical as zeb and andre expressed.

But my point, its inclusion not actually violating any argument put forth officially as long as rewards from lockboxes are convenience items and not technically considered as drops as lockboxes are cash shop items (as keys are which means lockboxes are too for only keys can open lockboxes).

stormdrag0n

aandrethegiant wrote: »

Did you just say lifetime sub?

b:cry I feel for ya there man.

O h no..I quite enjoy STO and have gotten a lot of mileage out of my LT sub and have met many awesome people, I feel it was worth it and so was my CO LT sub.

lyfebane

generally if you play the game for over a year then lifetime subs are not that bad a deal. It is just knowing you will play that long that is the gamble.

edit, btw this thread really moving, noone must have much to do on friday!

stormdrag0n

lyfebane wrote: »

generally if you play the game for over a year then lifetime subs are not that bad a deal. It is just knowing yuo will play that long that is the gamble.

Correct, but I played STO since the first beta and have seen them through a lot rough seas and those of us who did formed a really close knit community, Cryptic noticed and started listening to many of our concerns...now the game is much better and is moving in the right direction in my opinion.