"MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER" = emphasis on large groups
"massively multiplayer" <> "co-op multiplayer"
I hope it is clear enough.
Emphasis on large groups doesn't mean forced grouping or group centric, the fact of the matter is that both developers and players disagree with your assessment of what a MMORPG is.
And just because you have this assessment doesn't mean that Cryptic is going to change course and make the end game all about group raiding. Evaluate the game and see if it's something you want to play...cause I don't see it changing.
Evaluate the game and see if it's something you want to play...cause I don't see it changing.
That is true for any potential player. Of course I will evaluate it after it will be released. You say you don't see it changing, fact is you don't know yet how it is going to be, you just make some assumptions. Maybe you are wrong with your assumptions in which case I wish you luck finding a game more suited for you.
You mentioned earlier solo dungeons as in A.O.C. and Rift. Even in LOTRO there are some instances made specifically for single players/very small teams of players. That's going to be fine if they are conceived as single player dungeons. But single players using AI bots to do hardest group content and get same rewards as others, doesn't sound fine to me.
I don't see how both developpers and players are disagreeing with me.
I wouldnt get so hung up on any one person claiming most developers and players side with them on any single opinion. There are only so many opinions on the matter (solo, duo/shortman, full party) so naturally there will be "many people" who'll will side with any opinion.
There are pros and cons to running solo, duo or in a full group of say 5. There's even pros cons to running 30-40 member raids. As someone that's organized 12 member D&D online raids for 7 years I can tell you firsthand that in a good guild they can be a ton of fun. Our guild members look forward to, and willingly sign up to our guild runs each week. Almost all guildies choose running with guildies as opposed to running by themselves (which many have said is too boring.) All will most likely also tell you however that sometimes, they just want to explore on their own, or cant group for various reasons (family responsibilities, friends/neighbors over, etc). No one is "forced" to do anything, and real life always comes first.
In a pug group, where you dont know anyone, you have varying results. Some runs might go smooth, some groups will be quiet, some will have a blast chatting away, some wont be able to STAND listening to that one idiot who just wont shut up, or maybe there'll be a Leroy Jenkins type that just charges into combat before he puts on his underwear.....
Some folks love big groups, some love small, some just cant stand people.
As you can see as the numbers go higher, the risks of a good group go up. However there are "many" who like or dislike solo or group play for all the reasons I mentioned and many more. That's why I feel all three options should be open to players solo, duo/shortman, or full party.
However, I feel this game will always be missing something if they never institute small raid capability of say ~10 players. There are few single elements they can add to this game that would boost guild play more than adding small group raids (and no 5 party members is not a raid, and luckily hasn't been called one by Cryptic.).
20-30-40 member raids cannot happen in this game and never will, due to the fact that lag would inundate everyone involved, due to the server requirements of the instanced, highly graphical world we'll be playing in.
So within reason, I feel all methods of grouping should be available, but should scale based on difficulty and reward - selectable by each player.
I'll leave you all with the words of the master himself:
"The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience."
"I foresee online gaming changing when there are good audio-visual links connecting the participants, thus approximating play in a face-to-face group."
and one of my all time favorite quotes about gaming:
"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game."
I get the feeling that many people haven't played other Cryptic games or believe that this one will some how be a significantly different departure from their general design philosophy.
Generally speaking Cryptic is solo and small group friendly. It appears to be built into their engine (though I could be wrong about that). They have in the past (and from what I'm hearing about foundry I'm under the impression it is the same in NW) made the bulk of their content scaleable. Likewise the rewards for said content scale depending on the difficulty level you attempt the content at.
They offer some end game content that is group only (as far as I am aware the max group size are 5), this content tends to be long, complicated and difficult. It offers rewards that players cannot get in other places. They offer larger scale "open world" content like STO's Fleet actions, the recent NW blog post about events sounds similar but more polished and better implemented (that's a guess).
These are the games Cryptic has put out, in fact, CoH followed many of these concepts as well, so this is what I am expecting NW to be like, with changes here or changes there. I could be completely off base, but I don't think I am, I think the general principles are going to follow their other games.
You could, its not like its stealing active members from any other forum post though. Plus it hasn't really gone off topic since the topic of the thread is basically what can make this MMO successful and the state of dungeons and loot is definitely a topic that can be addressed.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2012
Simply put zooper there's really nobody saying there should absolutely not be raid content but rather it shouldn't be consider *the* end game.
Andre gave great detail on why we hope Cryptic tries to cater to all players and that's the stance I hold regardless of the fact personally I am a small group player.
As varrvarr stated though, chances are we won't see large group content based on the past games and the built in 5 man limits though I hope they consider adding it for the future.
But under no circumstances should Cryptic consider raids *the* endgame. That's the major reason stormdragon said the players disagree with you.
Raids are e fine by most of us. Just not as the must do content it is in WoW and other MMO's.
Raids are e fine by most of us. Just not as the must do content it is in WoW and other MMO's.
Exactly, i used to play end game raids in other MMO's (DDO and WoW) and i quit after some time because its always about the same... raids, raids and more raids....
Again, im not against raids and i actually think neverwinter should implement them in the future (max 10 man raid) but putting all the *end game* depending on raids is a BIG MISTAKE .
Exactly, i used to play end game raids in other MMO's (DDO and WoW) and i quit after some time because its always about the same... raids, raids and more raids....
Again, im not against raids and i actually think neverwinter should implement them in the future (max 10 man raid) but putting all the *end game* depending on raids is a BIG MISTAKE .
Yes, that's one point I didnt mention. I definitely agree with this. Raids should be dispersed throughout all the levels, and never be required for the only place to get top flight gear. In DDO it was absolutely required back in the day or you weren't going to craft (greensteel). Those days in DDO are gone, as you can craft and find/pull high end gear in many different ways.
I don't really want large group content. For me a 5 man is the perfect size and that is probably what I will do.
Solo missions are fine too I guess and I could definitely see myself doing them if I feel like I want to be a star for a little bit but the threats you face shouldn't be the same.
I can get behind both the game and the foundry including solo missions available but it just doesn't make sense and it isn't fair to the group players that getting a team together isn't worth anything as far as completing goals in the game.
I'm not saying it should be the only end game content and in fact you could do really hard solo missions with awesome rewards.
But don't just re-layout or worse re-stat the 5-man end content for solo players.
Quite simply thats stupid, it doesn't make sense and I am sure there are plenty of solo players that would agree that they would rather have more content than less.
Well, In my opinion, large groups must have 8 - 10 players or simply the double of a "normal" party.
About the raids, i can say the big mistake is - like someone already said - to put the endgame gear depending only on raid completions / raid loot. But this lead us to another discussion:
What we want on this game:
1 - Pre-generated gear (a.k.a. named loot)
2 - Random generated loot (and hope we get luck!)
3 - Crafting options for (personalized?) gear
4 - Cash shop gear
5 - Event-based gear
6 - Any combination of the options 1 - 5
(PS: sorry if my english is not good. I'm from Brazil).
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2012
Now Now a mod only locks a thread if it goes against the standards of the community. A good mod guides the conversation only when it is necessary and tends to let the people discuss on their own (or joins in if OK.)
But if I were pretending to be a mod, looking at the topic, I will concede one thing:
What we want on this game:
1 - Pre-generated gear (a.k.a. named loot)
2 - Random generated loot (and hope we get luck!)
3 - Crafting options for (personalized?) gear
4 - Cash shop gear
5 - Event-based gear
6 - Any combination of the options 1 - 5
(PS: sorry if my english is not good. I'm from Brazil).
I would personally like random picked loot from a large list. That way you know some boss will going to drop some piece of gear you need, at some point or another and gives you the motivation to run that instance multiple times.
Crafted gear is fine as long as good gear is very hard to craft.
Event based gear is ok as long as it is rare.
PvP gear obtained from honor points?
Please no CS gear!
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well, In my opinion, large groups must have 8 - 10 players or simply the double of a "normal" party.
About the raids, i can say the big mistake is - like someone already said - to put the endgame gear depending only on raid completions / raid loot. But this lead us to another discussion:
What we want on this game:
1 - Pre-generated gear (a.k.a. named loot)
2 - Random generated loot (and hope we get luck!)
3 - Crafting options for (personalized?) gear
4 - Cash shop gear
5 - Event-based gear
6 - Any combination of the options 1 - 5
(PS: sorry if my english is not good. I'm from Brazil).
Well, In my opinion, large groups must have 8 - 10 players or simply the double of a "normal" party.
About the raids, i can say the big mistake is - like someone already said - to put the endgame gear depending only on raid completions / raid loot. But this lead us to another discussion:
What we want on this game:
1 - Pre-generated gear (a.k.a. named loot)
2 - Random generated loot (and hope we get luck!)
3 - Crafting options for (personalized?) gear
4 - Cash shop gear
5 - Event-based gear
6 - Any combination of the options 1 - 5
(PS: sorry if my english is not good. I'm from Brazil).
Thank you for your nice post. We actually have a guildie that lives in Brazil, and I can vouch for you that your English, like his, is easy to understand and just fine!
The choice you present is an easy one, 6... all of the above.
However, I feel this game will always be missing something if they never institute small raid capability of say ~10 players. There are few single elements they can add to this game that would boost guild play more than adding small group raids (and no 5 party members is not a raid, and luckily hasn't been called one by Cryptic.).
20-30-40 member raids cannot happen in this game and never will, due to the fact that lag would inundate everyone involved, due to the server requirements of the instanced, highly graphical world we'll be playing in.
I think you really had the best arguments there. We don't need huge CPU requirements or lag and while I like small raids(10 people) my favorite thing is not to wait for the 24th member to come back after afk in a big raid. Technically speaking I think 10 would still be doable without huge increase in system equirements.
However lets take a break and consider that this is free game. I am thankful to Cryptic about what we get and raids are not mandatory at the release(and uncertain if they will be added but I hope so in the future). As for this loot issue yeah well there could be many ways to get loot. The important thing is that it is not fast and easy reach a Powerplateau and we will be fine. I don't mean necessary everlasting loot mill, but compare to say Neverwinter Nights level progression... and then we always got the FOUNDRY.
I really don't know what has happened with this thread, but please do not remove this post. This time I do not mention other games as examples and yeah maybe other games are offtopic.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2012
Agreed. If we fight over anything, let's be to preserve fun for as many people as we can!
Comments
Emphasis on large groups doesn't mean forced grouping or group centric, the fact of the matter is that both developers and players disagree with your assessment of what a MMORPG is.
And just because you have this assessment doesn't mean that Cryptic is going to change course and make the end game all about group raiding. Evaluate the game and see if it's something you want to play...cause I don't see it changing.
We still don't know yet how the endgame is going to be.
That is true for any potential player. Of course I will evaluate it after it will be released. You say you don't see it changing, fact is you don't know yet how it is going to be, you just make some assumptions. Maybe you are wrong with your assumptions in which case I wish you luck finding a game more suited for you.
You mentioned earlier solo dungeons as in A.O.C. and Rift. Even in LOTRO there are some instances made specifically for single players/very small teams of players. That's going to be fine if they are conceived as single player dungeons. But single players using AI bots to do hardest group content and get same rewards as others, doesn't sound fine to me.
I wouldnt get so hung up on any one person claiming most developers and players side with them on any single opinion. There are only so many opinions on the matter (solo, duo/shortman, full party) so naturally there will be "many people" who'll will side with any opinion.
There are pros and cons to running solo, duo or in a full group of say 5. There's even pros cons to running 30-40 member raids. As someone that's organized 12 member D&D online raids for 7 years I can tell you firsthand that in a good guild they can be a ton of fun. Our guild members look forward to, and willingly sign up to our guild runs each week. Almost all guildies choose running with guildies as opposed to running by themselves (which many have said is too boring.) All will most likely also tell you however that sometimes, they just want to explore on their own, or cant group for various reasons (family responsibilities, friends/neighbors over, etc). No one is "forced" to do anything, and real life always comes first.
In a pug group, where you dont know anyone, you have varying results. Some runs might go smooth, some groups will be quiet, some will have a blast chatting away, some wont be able to STAND listening to that one idiot who just wont shut up, or maybe there'll be a Leroy Jenkins type that just charges into combat before he puts on his underwear.....
Some folks love big groups, some love small, some just cant stand people.
As you can see as the numbers go higher, the risks of a good group go up. However there are "many" who like or dislike solo or group play for all the reasons I mentioned and many more. That's why I feel all three options should be open to players solo, duo/shortman, or full party.
However, I feel this game will always be missing something if they never institute small raid capability of say ~10 players. There are few single elements they can add to this game that would boost guild play more than adding small group raids (and no 5 party members is not a raid, and luckily hasn't been called one by Cryptic.).
20-30-40 member raids cannot happen in this game and never will, due to the fact that lag would inundate everyone involved, due to the server requirements of the instanced, highly graphical world we'll be playing in.
So within reason, I feel all methods of grouping should be available, but should scale based on difficulty and reward - selectable by each player.
I'll leave you all with the words of the master himself:
"The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience."
"I foresee online gaming changing when there are good audio-visual links connecting the participants, thus approximating play in a face-to-face group."
and one of my all time favorite quotes about gaming:
"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game."
- Gary Gygax
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Generally speaking Cryptic is solo and small group friendly. It appears to be built into their engine (though I could be wrong about that). They have in the past (and from what I'm hearing about foundry I'm under the impression it is the same in NW) made the bulk of their content scaleable. Likewise the rewards for said content scale depending on the difficulty level you attempt the content at.
They offer some end game content that is group only (as far as I am aware the max group size are 5), this content tends to be long, complicated and difficult. It offers rewards that players cannot get in other places. They offer larger scale "open world" content like STO's Fleet actions, the recent NW blog post about events sounds similar but more polished and better implemented (that's a guess).
These are the games Cryptic has put out, in fact, CoH followed many of these concepts as well, so this is what I am expecting NW to be like, with changes here or changes there. I could be completely off base, but I don't think I am, I think the general principles are going to follow their other games.
You could, its not like its stealing active members from any other forum post though. Plus it hasn't really gone off topic since the topic of the thread is basically what can make this MMO successful and the state of dungeons and loot is definitely a topic that can be addressed.
Andre gave great detail on why we hope Cryptic tries to cater to all players and that's the stance I hold regardless of the fact personally I am a small group player.
As varrvarr stated though, chances are we won't see large group content based on the past games and the built in 5 man limits though I hope they consider adding it for the future.
But under no circumstances should Cryptic consider raids *the* endgame. That's the major reason stormdragon said the players disagree with you.
Raids are e fine by most of us. Just not as the must do content it is in WoW and other MMO's.
Exactly, i used to play end game raids in other MMO's (DDO and WoW) and i quit after some time because its always about the same... raids, raids and more raids....
Again, im not against raids and i actually think neverwinter should implement them in the future (max 10 man raid) but putting all the *end game* depending on raids is a BIG MISTAKE .
Yes, that's one point I didnt mention. I definitely agree with this. Raids should be dispersed throughout all the levels, and never be required for the only place to get top flight gear. In DDO it was absolutely required back in the day or you weren't going to craft (greensteel). Those days in DDO are gone, as you can craft and find/pull high end gear in many different ways.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Solo missions are fine too I guess and I could definitely see myself doing them if I feel like I want to be a star for a little bit but the threats you face shouldn't be the same.
I can get behind both the game and the foundry including solo missions available but it just doesn't make sense and it isn't fair to the group players that getting a team together isn't worth anything as far as completing goals in the game.
I'm not saying it should be the only end game content and in fact you could do really hard solo missions with awesome rewards.
But don't just re-layout or worse re-stat the 5-man end content for solo players.
Quite simply thats stupid, it doesn't make sense and I am sure there are plenty of solo players that would agree that they would rather have more content than less.
About the raids, i can say the big mistake is - like someone already said - to put the endgame gear depending only on raid completions / raid loot. But this lead us to another discussion:
What we want on this game:
1 - Pre-generated gear (a.k.a. named loot)
2 - Random generated loot (and hope we get luck!)
3 - Crafting options for (personalized?) gear
4 - Cash shop gear
5 - Event-based gear
6 - Any combination of the options 1 - 5
(PS: sorry if my english is not good. I'm from Brazil).
But if I were pretending to be a mod, looking at the topic, I will concede one thing:
But will this be fun?
Is that the right way? That depends what game you were playing before coming to forums:-
Greyhawk
Forgotten Realms
Planescape
Dark Sun
Dragonlance
(and selune forbids,): Ravenloft
Ofcourse, if you were playing Ravenloft, at least for a day your idea of fun will be twisted...
DM's been running us in Ravenloft for months. I'm more twisted than salt water taffy.
I would personally like random picked loot from a large list. That way you know some boss will going to drop some piece of gear you need, at some point or another and gives you the motivation to run that instance multiple times.
Crafted gear is fine as long as good gear is very hard to craft.
Event based gear is ok as long as it is rare.
PvP gear obtained from honor points?
Please no CS gear!
All of the above or 6 for me. Choices are king.
Thank you for your nice post. We actually have a guildie that lives in Brazil, and I can vouch for you that your English, like his, is easy to understand and just fine!
The choice you present is an easy one, 6... all of the above.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
However lets take a break and consider that this is free game. I am thankful to Cryptic about what we get and raids are not mandatory at the release(and uncertain if they will be added but I hope so in the future). As for this loot issue yeah well there could be many ways to get loot. The important thing is that it is not fast and easy reach a Powerplateau and we will be fine. I don't mean necessary everlasting loot mill, but compare to say Neverwinter Nights level progression... and then we always got the FOUNDRY.
I really don't know what has happened with this thread, but please do not remove this post. This time I do not mention other games as examples and yeah maybe other games are offtopic.