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Will Neverwinter Be a Fun MMORPG.

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  • pilf3rpilf3r Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    vindicon wrote: »
    There should never be a hard distinction between PVE and PVP gear... it's just gear.

    The thing is, PVP and PVE are fundamentaly different as to what they require out of player builds. PVE requires consistency, PVP requires adaptability on the fly. In other words, PVE rewards specs that are mostly about consistent survivability and consistent damage, while PVP rewards specs that are mainly about burst and control. However, that is mainly a problem you're most likely gonna have to sort out with your feats and abilities, and not so much with your gear.

    And, in the end of the day, you're gonna have to make a decission: what are you aiming for with your character? You cannot have your pie and eat it. You would not send a paladin to murder someone and you would not send an assasin to hunt down a dragon - it just doesn't work that way...

    It depends on the mechanics and until we know more it's a pretty moot point, many many games have diff gear sets depending if you you are in pve or pvp mode.

    To me it makes sense, a persons avatar is a far thing from a random npc monster. Take your example for instance, you might not send a pally to murder someone but you might send a pally to stop that assassin from murdering someone.

    I agree with the build thing though, your build should reflect if it's a pve OR a pvp build with hybrids sucking somewhere in between.

    I just think gear is suppose to help accentuate your strengths or deficiencies depending on the route you take.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Neverwinter Thieves Guild
  • rahverahve Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 35
    edited October 2012
    If I can make a wish for Neverwinter, it's to implement diferent levels of difficulty and reward them appropriately so all kind of players can find a home and keep interested on achieving the next thing.

    Personally, there is nothing that turns me off more than hitting the level cap and beating the hardest dungeon of the game on the first go with a random group I just met at the dungeon door. When that happens, I just uninstall the game (Guild Wars 2 was the latest disappointment in that aspect, and so it now lies gathering dust in a closet).

    I believe everyone will agree that a F2P game needs to be capable to cater to all kinds of players so it can make profit and keep developping content, but you can't just throw all those players in a same bag. There are those that look for casual play and just do one dungeon run a week and don't care about being good or not at it as long as they're having a laugh, and there are those that like to find brick walls to smash their head against until they can break it. Both kinds of players, and anything in between, should be capable of enjoying the game.

    However, it is important to keep in mind that dedication must be rewarded. Just like if I go half hour a week to the gym I can't demand to have the body and muscles of a guy that spends there 25 hours a week, someone that plays 30 minutes a week shouldn't enjoy the rewards of those that through dedication to the videogame are trying to stand out in the crowd. When despite your efforts you end up being just one more snowflake amongst thousands of snowflakes, there is nothing to look forward to, and the enjoyment is just gone.
    It matters not how strait the gate,
    How charged with punishments the scroll.
    I am the master of my fate:
    I am the captain of my soul.

    - W.E.H.
  • jankowskijankowski Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 62
    edited October 2012
    As long as they stay true to the story I think it'll be a great game!
  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    jankowski wrote: »
    As long as they stay true to the story I think it'll be a great game!

    Amen to that.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • iamtruthseekeriamtruthseeker Member, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Can't say where ATM, but confirmed Delves are multi-player ONLY from 2 to 5 players at the end of a story-arc.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • pherephattapherephatta Member Posts: 90 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    rahve wrote: »

    However, it is important to keep in mind that dedication must be rewarded. Just like if I go half hour a week to the gym I can't demand to have the body and muscles of a guy that spends there 25 hours a week, someone that plays 30 minutes a week shouldn't enjoy the rewards of those that through dedication to the videogame are trying to stand out in the crowd. When despite your efforts you end up being just one more snowflake amongst thousands of snowflakes, there is nothing to look forward to, and the enjoyment is just gone.

    And yet many people demand just this. They shouldn't be expected to have to put in the time because they have jobs/families/responsibilities away from the game. People with that much time should go get a girlfriend/wife/job/move out of their parent's house/whatever insult is the meme of the day.

    Amusingly, I was about to say 'they put in the same amount of money so clearly they should get the same rewards' but in a f2p game, that's not really true, is it? This is the first f2p game I've actually followed beforehand, maybe that breed of person that I'm thinking of is more common in p2p games?

    But I agree with you 100%. If I chose to invest my time in a game, and someone else invests theirs somewhere else, I should reap the benefits that come with more effort.

    Personally, I think if we get Cryptic's style character customization + user generated content, that almost guarantees an awesome game. Even if the gameplay sucks, there will be people producing amazing content and we'll get to look good while doing it. Win win win. :)
  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Can't say where ATM, but confirmed Delves are multi-player ONLY from 2 to 5 players at the end of a story-arc.

    I though I heard that as well but didn't want to misspeak, but yeah I think it's pretty damn awesome that they opened end game like that to Duos.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • zoooperzoooper Member Posts: 30
    edited October 2012
    I hope we will have some raids with 15 - 40 players. 1 - 5 players parties are nice but in a true "massive" and "multiplayer" game having bigger raids for toughest instances/raid bosses it's a must. If wow had just 5 people parties, I would have much less success.

    Also it will make the whole thing more challenging because someone will usually screw up, not doing some tactics where he should or doing a ninja pull on a large pack of trash mobs.
  • muzrub333muzrub333 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I though I heard that as well but didn't want to misspeak, but yeah I think it's pretty damn awesome that they opened end game like that to Duos.

    Wonder if hirelings count as a party member? I love to group, but I also love the challenge of trying to solo group content. Not being able to try a delve instance as a solo character will be a disappointment.

    I don't like artificial limitations put on what I can or can't attempt. Not saying I would expect to succeed, but I'd like the option to at least try.
  • zoooperzoooper Member Posts: 30
    edited October 2012
    Group content shouldn't be soloable. That's the whole point of group content: doing it with others. If something is soloable there's no need to do it with group.
  • aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,369 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    zoooper wrote: »
    Group content shouldn't be soloable. That's the whole point of group content: doing it with others. If something is soloable there's no need to do it with group.

    Ridiculous. I have ALWAYS stressed the importance of solid group play to the D&D pen n paper and D&D MMO franchises. However, there should absolutely be the option to "solo" or "duo". Remember there's a large Neverwinter Nights RPG community here, and many will want to have the option to solo. Being D&D folks at heart, I believe many will actually want to team up as they make friends and get to know their guildies.

    It's a fine line. But I believe the option should be there to play alone or with company.

    TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
    No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
    Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
  • viledeeds77#8676 viledeeds77 Member Posts: 393 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    They have already stated that the incentive for playing a delve in group play is the better loot drops, if they make content scalable from solo to duo to 3-man, to full group (5-man) this in my mind alleviates any concern about exclusive group content.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • muzrub333muzrub333 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    zoooper wrote: »
    Group content shouldn't be soloable. That's the whole point of group content: doing it with others. If something is soloable there's no need to do it with group.

    Okay I'll clarify, I forget that games now are forced to actually have "group" and "solo" content to force us all down a path, or into a certain style of game play.

    I mean content that is usually first taken down by a group, but later can be attempted by a solo (higher level) character. Yeldema in the Western Wastes in EQ for example. I killed her in a full group the first time, but levels later, I soloed her. Took close to an hour, and was an amazing experience back then. To expand on that, I should, if I choose, be able to attempt a delve I had done many times with a group, as a solo player. It's an instance; no one is getting hurt by my actions, and I certainly don't want the content adjusted for solo play...that kind of ruins the point.

    add: The real point of any MOB regardless of group/solo is to kill it. It's totally irrelevant how many people it takes to accomplish the kill. Group and Solo play are equally valid gameplay styles, and most people do both during their stint with a given game.
  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    zoooper wrote: »
    Group content shouldn't be soloable. That's the whole point of group content: doing it with others. If something is soloable there's no need to do it with group.

    Yeah...no, given how many RPG fans will be playing this game it makes perfect sense for Cryptic to provide the option...there will be just too many people asking of it and it's not going to diminish the challenge for those who do group from my understanding as the difficulty and rewards increase as you add group members.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • muzrub333muzrub333 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    faleth77 wrote: »
    They have already stated that the incentive for playing a delve in group play is the better loot drops, if they make content scalable from solo to duo to 3-man, to full group (5-man) this in my mind alleviates any concern about exclusive group content.

    That's actually something I am not really happy about. Scaling is bad IMO, but I do understand why they do it. I'd rather experience the same delve, regardless of group size. Amazing content is often gutted when it is modified by scaling. Plus, there is no real sense of accomplishment, (for me personally), if my 2-3 man group is given a dumbed down version of what the 4-5 man groups are getting. I like challenge above the norm; I do think the combat system will help with that however.
  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    muzrub333 wrote: »
    That's actually something I am not really happy about. Scaling is bad IMO, but I do understand why they do it. I'd rather experience the same delve, regardless of group size. Amazing content is often gutted when it is modified by scaling. Plus, there is no real sense of accomplishment, (for me personally), if my 2-3 man group is given a dumbed down version of what the 4-5 man groups are getting. I like challenge above the norm; I do think the combat system will help with that however.

    If it is done correctly it will actually foster people to try the content at the greater difficulty once they mastered the lighter version, if you make it too brutal all you will do is please a very small subset that like everything to be a uber challenge...they need to strike a balance.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • muzrub333muzrub333 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    If it is done correctly it will actually foster people to try the content at the greater difficulty once they mastered the lighter version, if you make it too brutal all you will do is please a very small subset that like everything to be a uber challenge...they need to strike a balance.

    I couldn't agree with you more that things can't be set to Uber mode. I want everything to be doable, I just don't want to do a delve with a 5 man, and then have it changed drastically for a 2-3 man. I want all the same mobs, the same treasure, the same, (or even sweatier), sweaty palms. If a delve is designed for 4-5 5th level characters, it should be about the same for 2-3 7th level, and more challenging by quite a bit for 2-3 5th levels. Let it work out organically, without artificial scaling, like it did in the older, (and better), games, where a dungeon was just a dungeon. You show up, and give it a go as is, no fancy sliding scale difficulty, no sliding loot scale, just the unknown.

    /shrug just my 2cp anyways.
  • zoooperzoooper Member Posts: 30
    edited October 2012
    Ridiculous. I have ALWAYS stressed the importance of solid group play to the D&D pen n paper and D&D MMO franchises. However, there should absolutely be the option to "solo" or "duo". Remember there's a large Neverwinter Nights RPG community here, and many will want to have the option to solo. Being D&D folks at heart, I believe many will actually want to team up as they make friends and get to know their guildies.

    It's a fine line. But I believe the option should be there to play alone or with company.

    Fine, but this is neither pen and paper, nor isometric single player 2.5d RPG. It's an MMORPG and should be akin to WOW and Everquest.

    Group content should be extremely difficult and not soloable. 1 guy shouldn't be able to solo content meant for 40 people. There's no point to play in a group if anyone can solo.

    I hope there will be some sort of solo content so you can play that if you want to play solo.

    muzrub333 wrote: »
    I mean content that is usually first taken down by a group, but later can be attempted by a solo (higher level) character.

    That should be fine. I soloed myself some instances and bosses in some games when I had a 10 - 15 levels difference. But endgame group content should not be soloable.

    Please no dumbing down the group content just to please some people who aren't able to group or don't like taking part in a raid. Dumbing down content will mean that difficulty will be zero and the game won,t be fun.

    Just read the OP: for a game to be fun, endgame should be hard and challenging.
  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    zoooper wrote: »
    Fine, but this is neither pen and paper, nor isometric single player 2.5d RPG. It's an MMORPG and should be akin to WOW and Everquest.

    Group content should be extremely difficult and not soloable. 1 guy shouldn't be able to solo content meant for 40 people. There's no point to play in a group if anyone can solo.

    I hope there will be some sort of solo content so you can play that if you want to play solo.

    Well first off the largest size a dungeon will be is five man period, and also there are countless games like EQ and WoW and we don't need another one MMORPG isn't synonymous with raid or die and hasn't been for the last few years .

    The point of grouping over the two man or solo versions is greater challenge and greater rewards...most people see this as a good thing and the old if you want to see this content bring forty of your closest friends as archaic.

    If you're looking for a progression raid game this isn't it.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 7,800 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    zoooper wrote: »
    Fine, but this is neither pen and paper, nor isometric single player 2.5d RPG. It's an MMORPG and should be akin to WOW and Everquest.

    Group content should be extremely difficult and not soloable. ...

    Somehow it sounds like blasphemy
    *readies iron maiden*
  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    gillrmn wrote: »
    Somehow it sounds like blasphemy
    *readies iron maiden*

    As long as it's not from the Blaze Bailey years...oh you meant....
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • vangaldvangald Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 325 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2012
    Folks remember that they hinted at henchmen off and on through out the development. The content will likely be solo-able in that sense.
  • gillrmngillrmn Member Posts: 7,800 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    As long as it's not from the Blaze Bailey years...oh you meant....

    Yeah I meant one used by holy men ... one with stings, not with strings :p
  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    vangald wrote: »
    Folks remember that they hinted at henchmen off and on through out the development. The content will likely be solo-able in that sense.

    Though I can't elaborate why I very much agree with you that there will be henchman, but I don't think they will be just for running Dungeons.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • elewyndylelewyndyl Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    rahve wrote: »
    If I can make a wish for Neverwinter, it's to implement diferent levels of difficulty and reward them appropriately so all kind of players can find a home and keep interested on achieving the next thing.

    Personally, there is nothing that turns me off more than hitting the level cap and beating the hardest dungeon of the game on the first go with a random group I just met at the dungeon door. When that happens, I just uninstall the game (Guild Wars 2 was the latest disappointment in that aspect, and so it now lies gathering dust in a closet).

    I believe everyone will agree that a F2P game needs to be capable to cater to all kinds of players so it can make profit and keep developping content, but you can't just throw all those players in a same bag. There are those that look for casual play and just do one dungeon run a week and don't care about being good or not at it as long as they're having a laugh, and there are those that like to find brick walls to smash their head against until they can break it. Both kinds of players, and anything in between, should be capable of enjoying the game.

    However, it is important to keep in mind that dedication must be rewarded. Just like if I go half hour a week to the gym I can't demand to have the body and muscles of a guy that spends there 25 hours a week, someone that plays 30 minutes a week shouldn't enjoy the rewards of those that through dedication to the videogame are trying to stand out in the crowd. When despite your efforts you end up being just one more snowflake amongst thousands of snowflakes, there is nothing to look forward to, and the enjoyment is just gone.
    Well I agree a lot with this post. You are absolutely correct that we don't need another Guild Wars 2! I share your thoughts about powerprogression in general.

    Ok Neverwinter is maybe not WOW endless lootmill, but it should not be easy or fast to reach the Powerplateau if there exist one.

    My personal nightmare would be if WOW and other MMO:s would adapt to Guild Wars 2 powerprogression policy. Here a funny video and pay attention to what happens in a very short time. For those of you who do not know Guild Wars 2 is very casual in loot policy you get to Powerplateau(mean you can not get more powerful with levels/items etc. anymore) in less then 2 weeks. In addition GW2 has no mounts because that would destroy the immersion of big game according to the developers comments.
    See the funny video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ftaMx4_5aNU
    Oh and I am not some kid though maybe not so veteran as some GURU:s here. I have played old Baldurs Gate games also. Baldu rs Gate was like an ancestor to NeverwinterNights 1.
    This tune is actually from the Console version, but the PC version that I played had similar music in that expansion:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pNDZUZKhwRE
  • zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    edited October 2012
    Can't say where ATM, but confirmed Delves are multi-player ONLY from 2 to 5 players at the end of a story-arc.

    I cannot find the a quote off hand but I also remember this being the case too. Not that I agree with it, as I feel all content should be solo-friendly and scale to party size. I loathe raids and I loathe forced grouping to experience lore, even if it is only a 2 man forced group.

    However, as was mentioned, hirelings/henchment were mentioned in at least one video, so I believe they will be a part of the game system, similar to DDO. Hopefully our Henchmen will count to such a "forced" party size for the content, allowing solo and casual players the ability to play "forced group" content without needing to find a group of real people.

    I absolutely loathe playing anything for the first time in a group. There is always someone who mucks something up or is so bloody impatient that they suck the enjoyment out of it due to their "need" to rush content. I loathe such so much that I simply will not play such content. It took me nearly 2 years before I decided to suck it up and finished some STF missions in STO because of how much I loathe forced grouping.
  • stormdrag0nstormdrag0n Member Posts: 3,222 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    zebular wrote: »
    I cannot find the a quote off hand but I also remember this being the case too. Not that I agree with it, as I feel all content should be solo-friendly and scale to party size. I loathe raids and I loathe forced grouping to experience lore, even if it is only a 2 man forced group.

    However, as was mentioned, hirelings/henchment were mentioned in at least one video, so I believe they will be a part of the game system, similar to DDO. Hopefully our Henchmen will count to such a "forced" party size for the content, allowing solo and casual players the ability to play "forced group" content without needing to find a group of real people.

    I absolutely loathe playing anything for the first time in a group. There is always someone who mucks something up or is so bloody impatient that they suck the enjoyment out of it due to their "need" to rush content. I loathe such so much that I simply will not play such content. It took me nearly 2 years before I decided to suck it up and finished some STF missions in STO because of how much I loathe forced grouping.

    Yeah one of the things I detest in any MMO are those who feel like everything is a timed challenge, GoGoGoGo is almost like an auto leave group button.

    For me, one of the reasons I liked the original guild wars was I could grab my henchmen and run a mission and if I wanted to socialize I could go to Lions Arch and Guild wars was an extremely social game despite having many ways to do all of the content.... it's predecessor missed out on much of the soul the original had. I think Cryptic gets that and is why they are making the game much more accessible than some would like.
    Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
  • elewyndylelewyndyl Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Yeah one of the things I detest in any MMO are those who feel like everything is a timed challenge, GoGoGoGo is almost like an auto leave group button.

    For me, one of the reasons I liked the original guild wars was I could grab my henchmen and run a mission and if I wanted to socialize I could go to Lions Arch and Guild wars was an extremely social game despite having many ways to do all of the content.... it's predecessor missed out on much of the soul the original had. I think Cryptic gets that and is why they are making the game much more accessible than some would like.

    Some dungeons will take time though they do not have to take like 5+ hours like some HUGE Raid in WOW. Anyway when I critized Guild Wars 2 it had to do with easy reach Powerplateau.... the lore, story is ok in GW 2. I can not compare GW1 to GW2 because I never played GW1.

    However idea of henchmen is very old. Even in old Baldurs Gate games we controlled 6 characters. In Neverwinternights 1 the 3D game we had actual henchmen with more advanced AI. Anyway I am not against idea of having henchmen. However I wonder if the henchmen will be as powerful and smart as real players? Probably not so smart, but at least good enough hopefully.
  • iamtruthseekeriamtruthseeker Member, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Now I do know and it's been said the delves can be done in about an hour or so. Great if I were say, testing something out with a character concept, but only had limited time to play that character.


    But what I can't find which goes to "if allowed, can we solo multi player with henchmen and/or pets?" is info on said support since the co-op days. Except one mention in a Gencon video which mentioned pets, I have no info on pets and absolutely no info on henchmen. But I trust Storm, and if he's heard it before but also can't say where ATM but can find it later, I believe it's still in the game. Of course, if anybody finds that public post on it post-co-op do put it up, and I'll link it for us to reference.

    Now that I think of it, ARE you allowed in WOW and EQ to "solo" raids without other live players (whether it would succeed or not, just mechanically able to including with any hirelings/pets?)

    If not, they may have "hardwired" NWO the same way for a minimum live player participation.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • elewyndylelewyndyl Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Now that I think of it, ARE you allowed in WOW and EQ to "solo" raids without other live players (whether it would succeed or not, just mechanically able to including with any hirelings/pets?)
    It is disucssed in this TOPIC:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3881919870
    As default you can NOT enter a RAID in WOW with less then at least 2 players. However as the topic says if the other player leaves the raid after entering the RAID then you can solo it.

    However why compare a HUGE Raid to Neverwinter Dungeons? Anybody can solo a 5 player instance(Dungeon) in WOW. It is harder though so you don't stand a chance if you try to solo your own level Dungeon.

    Many people do in WOW is that they try lower level Raids or Dungeons with less people for fun. Anyway as an answer to your question you can try, but it is harder and some might be impossible to do.

    How to solo a 5 player Neverwinter instance is a better question? I believe it requires that you would have 4 good henchmen for the harder(more difficult)Dungeons, but at this point I have no clue if Neverwinter supports so many henchmen. Stop dreaming that you can solo every instance please. I don't believe it until it has been confirmed that we could have 4 good henchmen. I mean you can try with less, but you will likely die even with a couple of henchmen...
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