Come on... if you were a dev and you had a game and somebody asked while jumping, "What about raids?" what will you answer? Obviously you won't want to hit that person -for having a myopic vision to see all MMOs with one vision and something you have actually created being put down by those stupid standards - I mean not officially ofcourse.
You can basically listen Andy say, "There are no raids per se in gamebut there would be long long dungeon delves, maybe an hour or more. We will definately improve on them depending on feedback <etc etc etc>.
Yeah this was kind of the impression I get with all Cryptic games - we define Raid as long not as massive. It has been their design philosophy for sometime, and they are usually up front about that. It might hurt them with some customers, but generally people accept it, the problems their games have faced in the past seem to be more related to content, hopefully the combined extension of development time with better ugc tools in at launch will help NW avoid this problem.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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vindiconMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
To me a raid is just something you can't solo and need a larger group to complete.
Now what "a larger group" means is all relative, take ddo for example there's raids that can be soloed easily enough by 1 person.
It's not about what every individual thinks of it. The term "raid", much like a lot of things in the gaming industry, has a specific, standard definition. Raids are larger-than-usual dungeons that are meant to be tackled either by multiple standard-sized groups simultaneously or by a special group the size of multiple standard-sized groups. As opposed to regular dungeons, designed to be tackled by a single normal-sized group. That's what it is. It has nothing to do with if it can be soloed or not - ANYTHING can be soloed and facerolled in an RPG once your level and stats are high enough. As long as there's no technical reason to have more than one person in the party ofcourse (ie doors that need 2 switches to be pressed simultaneously for them to open etc)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't know if anything is written in stone at this point, but 5 has been the number many have thrown around. Truth, if your out there, might be able to conform if any other number has been used.
I agree the DDO raid formula may have worked in the first few years, but by now, its original point is lost in the powercreep. Many, many who run DDO raids shortman them. Heck, the largest segment of the community I dare to say doesn't even bother raiding any longer...
Many still like raiding like me. I think more that gone are the days of HUGE 40+ people raids. In WOW 10 people raids are most popular.
To put a final tease of raids(10+ people) or not at release. Developer Andy has said that they have not showed a major thing that is in the game. In theory that could be the RAIDS, but I suspect very strongly that Andy meant PvP with that comment.
On the other hand they showed Events and Contents are in the game after the Andys comment. If I would ever interview Andy then I would ask him what major thing did he mean with that slightly teasing comment.
Is it written in stone that max party size will be five? To me a raid is just something you can't solo and need a larger group to complete.
Now what "a larger group" means is all relative, take ddo for example there's raids that can be soloed easily enough by 1 person.
Yes it is pretty much written in stone. For larger groups, you have open world where number of players/party/guilds are unlimited. But note that making open/public areas can only be done by devs and not by foundry(though it i in wishlist).
Also note that PETS were there in character screen. That would automatically mean 5 players with 5 beholders (just guessing). Adding more than 5, like 12 or so players would mean 24 total friendlies??? An army? lol!
As long as there's no technical reason to have more than one person in the party ofcourse (ie doors that need 2 switches to be pressed simultaneously for them to open etc)
good point, that is how I interpret solo-friendliness too.
To put a final tease of raids(10+ people) or not at release. Developer Andy has said that they have not showed a major thing that is in the game. In theory that could be the RAIDS, but I suspect very strongly that Andy meant PvP with that comment..
Have they mentioned anything about utilizing the crew system from STO? I have a fantasy of customizing a band of adventures, even if I hardly use them in game play.
I'd love to see 10+ player activities, though I'm not sure it'll happen. They haven't done that in CO or STO yet as far as I am aware, outside of a few things like Fleet actions.
Have they mentioned anything about utilizing the crew system from STO? I have a fantasy of customizing a band of adventures, even if I hardly use them in game play.
I'd love to see 10+ player activities, though I'm not sure it'll happen. They haven't done that in CO or STO yet as far as I am aware, outside of a few things like Fleet actions.
No info on that, but at very early co-op stages, there was a talk if you can have npc in your missions as mercenaries who can assist you. A lot has changed ever since and so we have no idea or info on that yet.
Ridiculous. I have ALWAYS stressed the importance of solid group play to the D&D pen n paper and D&D MMO franchises. However, there should absolutely be the option to "solo" or "duo". Remember there's a large Neverwinter Nights RPG community here, and many will want to have the option to solo. Being D&D folks at heart, I believe many will actually want to team up as they make friends and get to know their guildies.
It's a fine line. But I believe the option should be there to play alone or with company.
Shouldn't be equal rewards.
Also for something to be on par with raid content it should take about a month to get the fight to the point where its hard to fail it.
If there isn't pve content where we wipe (kind of a lot) for a while then It will be boring to play.
Honestly there should be more bosses like Kael'thas in BC where he broke guilds upon his massive pimp fist.
I don't mind that the game can be solo friendly but I must say I find it odd coming from a DnD based community that peeps are wanting to solo everything.
DnD isn't about solo play, when you played PnP DnD was it by yourself ? I fracking doubt it and as such I feel gameplay should be more like that.
This game isn't going to be great if 90% of the content you run solo with hirelings stooges, just take a look at ddo how how damn boring the game is now.
This is "suppose" to be a MMO not a single player game with multiplayer options.
I'm hoping when it comes to the "delves" you can't use hireling and stuff like that and you need to form "real" parties
I also want to play a knight in a sci-fi game, hold a laser gun in a fantasy game and use turn based combat in an action combat style game. Also I would like to have a racing kart as a mount in this very game.
Sadly, this isn't going to happen.
There are plenty solo games for people who prefer solo play style. Just a few:
Mass Effec 3t, Skyrim, Risen 2, Witcher 2, Grimrock , Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, Dragon Age II, Heroes VI.
That sounds like fun. Tell me if you ever develop that!
And as for the rest of these questions is there a RAID option:
Will there be RAIDS in this Neverwinter Online MMO Game?
Yes and no. Yes, there will be multiplayer escalated challenge "delves" at the end of each "chapter" or "story-arc" segment that drops "the best loot" for the players, but no, it's not like a typical RAID.
The Delve is a multi-player chalenge for up to five players and is repeatable (so if you didn't get what you wanted, you can try again,) and is finish-able in about an hour's time. Cryptic and Perfect World understand the needs of all gamers when it comes to both skill and time allotted to play a session, and took the hours of setup and prep just to "start" out of this equation, without taking away the skills and challenges needed. Or, as (colorfully) said by ANdy Valasquez in an MMORPG Interview,
Andy Velasquez: Personally I feel like our Dungeon Delves are huge improvement over the overall raiding experience that I have personally experienced playing MMOs. When I think about what I loved during my time raiding in other MMO?s it was always the joy of getting mah phat lewtz and the challenge of taking down interesting content with my buddies. What I hated was the slog that almost always came with it.
Our Dungeon Delves are still the places where you will be going to get your phat lewt. They are still where you will find the some of the most interesting bosses, monsters and locations Neverwinter has to offer and you are your friends will be challenged to take down all of the content in them. Yet they are meant to be shorter less grindy affairs than traditional MMO raids
Yeah yeah yeah, let's get to the important question: How will I get my Party treasure here? Will it be random or rewarded to everybody?
Here's where we learned something cool about Neverwinter's loot system when partied. She dropped something for everyone, stuff that no one but you can loot, and she also spawned a chest that we all had to roll on. Andy told us that the idea is for everyone to get something from their hard work in a dungeon, but they also want that traditional sense of "Oh, what's in the chest?!?" that has long been a hallmark of both D&D and MMORPGs.
That's it. No multiple person above 5 for a Raid, and SPECIFICALLY an hour or less for the reasons posted above. Trust me when I say that if I were in Beta right now, I'd post the exact same thing I had posted this on some Beta thread or FAQ. This was specifically addressed in articles like this and changing it goes against the MMO negative aspects and D&D themes this game is. Period. Can it change? Yeah. Would it change? As likely as PvP taking over all of D&D here.
I don't mind that the game can be solo friendly but I must say I find it odd coming from a DnD based community that peeps are wanting to solo everything.
DnD isn't about solo play, when you played PnP DnD was it by yourself ? I fracking doubt it and as such I feel gameplay should be more like that.
This game isn't going to be great if 90% of the content you run solo with hirelings stooges, just take a look at ddo how how damn boring the game is now.
This is "suppose" to be a MMO not a single player game with multiplayer options.
I'm hoping when it comes to the "delves" you can't use hireling and stuff like that and you need to form "real" parties
Welcome to the MMO view of gaming As. Solo has gone from an option to an "inalienable right" to some.
I don't mind that the game can be solo friendly but I must say I find it odd coming from a DnD based community that peeps are wanting to solo everything.
DnD isn't about solo play, when you played PnP DnD was it by yourself ? I fracking doubt it and as such I feel gameplay should be more like that.
This game isn't going to be great if 90% of the content you run solo with hirelings stooges, just take a look at ddo how how damn boring the game is now.
This is "suppose" to be a MMO not a single player game with multiplayer options.
I'm hoping when it comes to the "delves" you can't use hireling and stuff like that and you need to form "real" parties
I agree 100% with this. Hirelings/henchmen should definitely not be allowed in raids/dungeon delves.
...
This game isn't going to be great if 90% of the content you run solo with hirelings stooges, just take a look at ddo how how damn boring the game is now.
...
Got to agree that hirelings destroyed the DDO for me. And the hirelings even had a supply of SP pots ... ... ...
This is kind of like being on a Titanic, seeing the iceberg coming but not being able to do anything about it.
I really hope those features work out, but ive seen solo friendly game after solo friendly game lack proper coop content and fail in the end. I hope this is not the case with NWO, but we shall see. No raids is definetly a HUGE mistake, i dont think ive ever enjoyed a raid more than i did in EQ with 70+ massive raids. Nothing new even comes close in challenge and excitement.
5man "dunge devle" just doesnt sound right for the "most challenging content".
Ya I know how it is in many new MMOs I'm just surprised the DnD crowd has been conned into this type of mentality.
I'd like to see how a PnP DnD session would go with 1 person and 4 "hirelings" lol
Actually I have played some very fun tabletop D&D with just one player and the DM. I've played tabletop D&D with any number of people, up to 10 players. It's perfectly doable - I've found it gets more difficult to manage the more people you have.
It's not very comparable with MMOs though as you can't get very creative. The hard coding limits your options to a very large degree so things get wonky. I've found in a D&D game, for example, rogues make very very good "solo" classes. High skills means lots of options. It rarely works out that way in MMOs, which are generally all about fighting.
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Welcome to the MMO view of gaming As. Solo has gone from an option to an "inalienable right" to some.
C'mon Truth, Soloing was a part of the original MMORPGs; a very important part actually. The whole forced group content thing is something developers made up to shut all the complainers up. Just like instances. Sure people who think WoW was the first MMO might not get it, but that doesn't change the fact that soloing is, and always has been a valid way to play MMO's, and it has nothing to do with being anti-social. Soloing is also a part of DnD; not everyone grew up in an area with a ripe crop of nerds to draw from. It's called using your imagination...remember that?
Lets not forget that while this may be based on 4e DnD, it's also going to be an MMORPG, and the two aren't actually a pair made in heaven. Compromise on both sides is going to be needed if this game is going to be a success. Ask yourself this; would you rather have someone who enjoys soloing play the game, and spend money in the cash shop, thereby helping keep the game alive, or would you rather close down the solo crowd entirely, and lose out on their money.
I have said it before, and yeah, I'm saying it again, I love to group, but sometimes want the option to solo. Dismissing a whole group of potential players based on prejudices, and misconception is pretty sad; solo play hurts no one. Snarky remarks about "inalienable rights" come across as not only arrogant, but quite frankly ignorant as well. I expect more from you of all people on this board. The game designers have the final say, not you, or I, or anyone else; all we can do is toss around ideas, and decide if we play or not based on their decisions.
I don't know maybe the fact that I have played DnD for 30 years, and MMO's for close to 14 gives me a different perspective on things; a rose colored perspective where people welcome all types of players into the fold...pfft what am I thinking, this is the intrawebs.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
C'mon Truth, Soloing was a part of the original MMORPGs; a very important part actually. The whole forced group content thing is something developers made up to shut all the complainers up. Just like instances. Sure people who think WoW was the first MMO might not get it, but that doesn't change the fact that soloing is, and always has been a valid way to play MMO's, and it has nothing to do with being anti-social. Soloing is also a part of DnD; not everyone grew up in an area with a ripe crop of nerds to draw from. It's called using your imagination...remember that?
Lets not forget that while this may be based on 4e DnD, it's also going to be an MMORPG, and the two aren't actually a pair made in heaven. Compromise on both sides is going to be needed if this game is going to be a success. Ask yourself this; would you rather have someone who enjoys soloing play the game, and spend money in the cash shop, thereby helping keep the game alive, or would you rather close down the solo crowd entirely, and lose out on their money.
I have said it before, and yeah, I'm saying it again, I love to group, but sometimes want the option to solo. Dismissing a whole group of potential players based on prejudices, and misconception is pretty sad; solo play hurts no one. Snarky remarks about "inalienable rights" come across as not only arrogant, but quite frankly ignorant as well. I expect more from you of all people on this board. The game designers have the final say, not you, or I, or anyone else; all we can do is toss around ideas, and decide if we play or not based on their decisions.
I don't know maybe the fact that I have played DnD for 30 years, and MMO's for close to 14 gives me a different perspective on things; a rose colored perspective where people welcome all types of players into the fold...pfft what am I thinking, this is the intrawebs.
You misunderstand. I don't mind soloing in MMOs and encourage doing it when not grouping, which I do a LOT in a game with no currently joined guilds or active joined guiklds with no members on and no reliable Pick-Up-Group or PUG members.
I'm actually against those who insist ONLY soloing for MMO playing. Allow me to explain.
Note: the following is the poster's opinion and should not be construed as the cannon of this or other multi-player games...no matter how right the poster may (or impossibly as it may turn out, may not) be.
He he, let me be silly there, but I'll seriously continue:
It's the overall arrogance that people treat MMO's currently like their own little version of The Elder Scrolls/Dragon Age and insist all games have a solo option or they won't consider buying it!
I remember multi-player games before the pretty graphics when we had to rely on text, then ANSI then basic graphics when VGA meant Very Good Acronym.
I saw precursors that paved the way to games like Everquest (Meridian 59 anybody?) And I saw how the social gaming was revolutionized forever by the MMO. We finally had a computer option around the WORLD to play games with others AND use reliable graphics to make it feel like the quality of one of those "solo" games!
Somewhere, we lost our way when we made AI so good, people took the multiplayer out of the game for these levels of interaction and it was assumed everything was either too easy to do in scriptiing it shouldn't have multi-player (even when those games were based on single player games which are impossible to script like that in multi-player it being vital to have a closed environment to make you the target of all attention mechanically speaking) or so tedious to group, you'll just OP the mission and solo it. Or just you're so OP you're soloing this RAID somehow, so ALL RAIDS must be able to do this because you did it before....again, see arrogance.
We lost our way bvecause we lost our collective balance. (Having the attitude that "everybody wins in competition" didn't help that generation learn boundries and "no" either, but that's a whole other topic I'm not discussing here further.) We need to learn how to play together because that's what the MMO stands for. I mean it's ir's in the [censored swear word of your choice] Acronym! MASSIVE MULTI-PLAYER ONLINE ROLE PLAYING GAME. Being more veteran, I expected to have to explain the classic meaning of the RPG part, but the MMO, that truly is despondant.
So in conclusion (or for this ADD world, tl;dr) there isn't anything wrong with solo in MMORPG's even if it's not the primary setup for this type of game as an option, but it should never be a demanded right or refusal to play in this kind of game.
Hope that clears things up, and do play solo folks,
just don't throw a fit if every mission can't be done that way either.
Very partisan opinions in this thread...personally I like to group with my friends and those people I meet online who are great people to be around...I also like soloing/duoing sometimes, I really like my away team in STO and my Henchmen in GW, but I wouldn't want to be forced to take them every time.
Likewise I don't want to be forced to suffer a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just because I need to finish a Dungeon. I honestly think that when it comes down to it the vast majority of gamers today (I'm not talking about the hardcore RPG players or Hardcore progression raiders) think like I do.
I have DMed Pen and Paper RPG's with just two people and as many as twelve both were fun but I never want to be force to either extreme either. As long as a game doesn't punish me for whatever style I feel like at the time I'm cool, but I just have zero tolerance when a drum beater of a specific play style tells me I'm wrong and need to go play EQ or skyrim and to get out of their playground. (NOT THAT I'M SAYING ANYONE HAS SAID THAT HERE)
Though I don't always hit the mark my goal is tolerance of other gamers and their play styles and folks in general. So I will group with you, duo with you and when I can't do that solo...but I want the choice to do all three and I don't want to be punished no matter what I choose.
MMO to me doesn't mean having to run a maze with so many other cookie cutter builds, it doesn't mean endlessly grinding quest with bots or even without them, it means a living world of people and possibilities that I can explore on my terms.
That might be naive, but after gaming since 78 it's what satisfies me personally.
Very partisan opinions in this thread...personally I like to group with my friends and those people I meet online who are great people to be around...I also like soloing/duoing sometimes, I really like my away team in STO and my Henchmen in GW, but I wouldn't want to be forced to take them every time.
Likewise I don't want to be forced to suffer a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just because I need to finish a Dungeon. I honestly think that when it comes down to it the vast majority of gamers today (I'm not talking about the hardcore RPG players or Hardcore progression raiders) think like I do.
I have DMed Pen and Paper RPG's with just two people and as many as twelve both were fun but I never want to be force to either extreme either. As long as a game doesn't punish me for whatever style I feel like at the time I'm cool, but I just have zero tolerance when a drum beater of a specific play style tells me I'm wrong and need to go play EQ or skyrim and to get out of their playground. (NOT THAT I'M SAYING ANYONE HAS SAID THAT HERE)
Though I don't always hit the mark my goal is tolerance of other gamers and their play styles and folks in general. So I will group with you, duo with you and when I can't do that solo...but I want the choice to do all three and I don't want to be punished no matter what I choose.
MMO to me doesn't mean having to run a maze with so many other cookie cutter builds, it doesn't mean endlessly grinding quest with bots or even without them, it means a living world of people and possibilities that I can explore on my terms.
That might be naive, but after gaming since 78 it's what satisfies me personally.
^^^^ aa| aa|
THIS
is what I believe in. All ways are fine, but don't force me to do it your way or say I'm an idiot/get out.
There might be times I have to choose a style to realistically finish a game, but I'd rather not have the community dictate how I must think on this or be so disconnected to the game itself with...other's social inabilities to group well that I feel punished if I do.
I guess I don't really care if soloing is available as long as someone like a "Battle Cleric" can't face stomp the solo content for equal rewards because its scaled down so classes like a utility class can still solo.
Me personally will always choose group play even if there is an <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> since if you go in with the right attitudes asshats can be a fun enjoyable experience. I remember some of the best times I had in wow was tearing through heroics with best in slot gear getting marks for heirloom gear. Just messing with people is so much fun and really thats a part of the mmo I would never give up for doing a dungeon a little faster.
Also on the elitist spectrum I have played games like FFXI were the soloing existed from 1-12 and from there on you had to group because mobs lower than your level could kill you. You had to make the deadly trek to "the dunes" and level in partys there.
But leveling in that game was like Everquest, if you looked for a group you were in it for like 5-6 hours since it took so much time to get to where you were leveling. I played a bard in FFXI which made finding groups annoyingly easy, (Like getting flooded with invites a min after logging on) hell people would bid for your services paying you per the hour to join their group. b:laugh
A game shouldn't try to be everything for everyone. If it tries that, it fails.
A game should try to cater to a specific audience, a specific type of player and meet most of the demands of that specific audience.
If, as a side effect, other than the specific targeted audience will find the game fun and enjoy it, well, that's a bonus.
A fantasy MMORPG should emphasize lore, story, class roles, character progressing, hard to achieve goals, hard work, competitions and GROUPING. The ENDGAME is most important, endgame content should be doable by only a percent of players, there has to be competition and hard to achieve goals which once achieved should give a sense of accomplishment.
A game where any player is able to do anything regardless of skills, time invested and work invested is just a fail game.
There are tons of fail MMOs. Devs tried to cater to all types of audiences and they failed. There are only a handful of good and successful MMMORPGS.
You want to play a GOOD MMORPG or you just want a place to hang out?
A game shouldn't try to be everything for everyone. If it tries that, it fails.
A game should try to cater to a specific audience, a specific type of player and meet most of the demands of that specific audience.
If, as a side effect, other than the specific targeted audience will find the game fun and enjoy it, well, that's a bonus.
A fantasy MMORPG should emphasize lore, story, class roles, character progressing, hard to achieve goals, hard work, competitions and GROUPING. The ENDGAME is most important, endgame content should be doable by only a percent of players, there has to be competition and hard to achieve goals which once achieved should give a sense of accomplishment.
A game where any player is able to do anything regardless of skills, time invested and work invested is just a fail game.
There are tons of fail MMOs. Devs tried to cater to all types of audiences and they failed. There are only a handful of good and successful MMMORPGS.
You want to play a GOOD MMORPG or you just want a place to hang out?
Good and fail are very squishy terms, a developer can have an accessible philosophy without being all things to all people, also anytime you alienate a large group of people ( and trust me Soloist/duoist/social/crafters/RPers are a huge interconnected group) you run the risk of becoming a niche game that only a handful of people play.
The intelligent thing to do is to let you players have adventures on their terms, either as a group (aka Drizzt, Regis, Bruenor,Catibre and Wulfgar) as a team (Elric and Moonglum) or as a lone hero (Conan) once you deny these Authoritative bases you are painting yourself in a corner and are basically becoming an Algorithm with a fantasy paint job.
The reason I say "have adventures" is there is a certain malaise (that only the genius possess and the insane lament :P ) in the genre now players are tired of being heros ascendeds, Deavas and Ubergods, ask them what they want and most will say I just want to be a explorer/adventure saving the world gets old....and that is very telling where the genre is heading I think.
What the hardcores (hardcore progression raiders and hardcore RPG players) want is something that they can compete and beat, and MMO's are evolving into much more than that. There are MMO's out there that require you to have a large group at end game if you want to even see certain content, everyone has to press the correct series of buttons and have the correct build, it's silly to demand that all MMO's be like that, there has to be some diversity and that diversity is what will keep the genre alive.
You misunderstand. I don't mind soloing in MMOs and encourage doing it when not grouping, which I do a LOT in a game with no currently joined guilds or active joined guiklds with no members on and no reliable Pick-Up-Group or PUG members.
I'm actually against those who insist ONLY soloing for MMO playing. /snip
just don't throw a fit if every mission can't be done that way either.
Thank you Truth, looks like we are actually in agreement in spirit; sometimes things are lost in translation. I always appreciate a level headed response, even if I sometimes get a little, how should I say it...passionate about the concept of freedom of choice in MMORPGs.
is what I believe in. All ways are fine, but don't force me to do it your way or say I'm an idiot/get out.
There might be times I have to choose a style to realistically finish a game, but I'd rather not have the community dictate how I must think on this or be so disconnected to the game itself with...other's social inabilities to group well that I feel punished if I do.
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2012
The only thing I have to add to this is that some of the MMO community have incorrectly re-arranged the words in MMO in recent years. MMO's are Massive Multiplayer Games not Multiplayer Massive Games.
Originally MMO's were designed with the concept that there were a lot of players on at once to choose to play with. It was only later on that forced group content was implemented and honestly the biggest reason it is there is because the relationships it builds and the responsibility it requires makes it hard to leave the game.
It's a money maker through and through.
Other MMO's I played the games became less and less solo/small group friendly over time copying the WoW raid system. I detest spending time organizing raids and the drama involved with massive groups. I'm all for playing with friends, but when friends become random people and playing becomes hours of team organization I find myself gritting my teeth.
I think the industry will slowly learn that while raids have their niche and are indeed profitable the WoW raid standard has to go because it alienates large amounts of players who don't like Multiplayer Massive Games.
The goal of any MMO should be to give players the opportunity to play with as many or few players as they want. Forcing it will eventually be done away with.
"MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER" = emphasis on large groups
"massively multiplayer" <> "co-op multiplayer"
On October 5, 2011, Perfect World announced that Neverwinter had shifted from the co-operative multiplayer game that was announced the previous year into a free-to-play MMORPG.
The only thing I have to add to this is that some of the MMO community have incorrectly re-arranged the words in MMO in recent years. MMO's are Massive Multiplayer Games not Multiplayer Massive Games.
Originally MMO's were designed with the concept that there were a lot of players on at once to choose to play with. It was only later on that forced group content was implemented and honestly the biggest reason it is there is because the relationships it builds and the responsibility it requires makes it hard to leave the game.
It's a money maker through and through.
Other MMO's I played the games became less and less solo/small group friendly over time copying the WoW raid system. I detest spending time organizing raids and the drama involved with massive groups. I'm all for playing with friends, but when friends become random people and playing becomes hours of team organization I find myself gritting my teeth.
I think the industry will slowly learn that while raids have their niche and are indeed profitable the WoW raid standard has to go because it alienates large amounts of players who don't like Multiplayer Massive Games.
The goal of any MMO should be to give players the opportunity to play with as many or few players as they want. Forcing it will eventually be done away with.
Very true, and you really hear less and less people demanding that MMO's have to have a group centric end game, even many of the hard core progression raiders will say "No, no by all means give them their own endgame..they have come to realize that MMO's need every player they can get and more options means they are less likely to have their particular play style co-opted by the dare I say it.."casuals"
The solo dungeons that both Age of Conan and RIFT did were super popular and actually alleviated a lot of friction between the two player bases, oh sure you still had the occasional jerk in both camps trying to stir the pot, but all in all it was good for the game and the overall community and really I think that you end up with a more pleasant community when someone doesn't have to enter that dungeon with you
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Yeah this was kind of the impression I get with all Cryptic games - we define Raid as long not as massive. It has been their design philosophy for sometime, and they are usually up front about that. It might hurt them with some customers, but generally people accept it, the problems their games have faced in the past seem to be more related to content, hopefully the combined extension of development time with better ugc tools in at launch will help NW avoid this problem.
It's not about what every individual thinks of it. The term "raid", much like a lot of things in the gaming industry, has a specific, standard definition. Raids are larger-than-usual dungeons that are meant to be tackled either by multiple standard-sized groups simultaneously or by a special group the size of multiple standard-sized groups. As opposed to regular dungeons, designed to be tackled by a single normal-sized group. That's what it is. It has nothing to do with if it can be soloed or not - ANYTHING can be soloed and facerolled in an RPG once your level and stats are high enough. As long as there's no technical reason to have more than one person in the party ofcourse (ie doors that need 2 switches to be pressed simultaneously for them to open etc)
To put a final tease of raids(10+ people) or not at release. Developer Andy has said that they have not showed a major thing that is in the game. In theory that could be the RAIDS, but I suspect very strongly that Andy meant PvP with that comment.
On the other hand they showed Events and Contents are in the game after the Andys comment. If I would ever interview Andy then I would ask him what major thing did he mean with that slightly teasing comment.
As for larger than 10 member raids, I really wouldn't hold your breath. 12 tops if we ever get to see it implemented way down the road.
I'm with you tho, it would sure be sweet! 10 is a realistic number to shoot for
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Yes it is pretty much written in stone. For larger groups, you have open world where number of players/party/guilds are unlimited. But note that making open/public areas can only be done by devs and not by foundry(though it i in wishlist).
Also note that PETS were there in character screen. That would automatically mean 5 players with 5 beholders (just guessing). Adding more than 5, like 12 or so players would mean 24 total friendlies??? An army? lol!
@vindicon:
good point, that is how I interpret solo-friendliness too.
Have they mentioned anything about utilizing the crew system from STO? I have a fantasy of customizing a band of adventures, even if I hardly use them in game play.
I'd love to see 10+ player activities, though I'm not sure it'll happen. They haven't done that in CO or STO yet as far as I am aware, outside of a few things like Fleet actions.
No info on that, but at very early co-op stages, there was a talk if you can have npc in your missions as mercenaries who can assist you. A lot has changed ever since and so we have no idea or info on that yet.
Shouldn't be equal rewards.
Also for something to be on par with raid content it should take about a month to get the fight to the point where its hard to fail it.
If there isn't pve content where we wipe (kind of a lot) for a while then It will be boring to play.
Honestly there should be more bosses like Kael'thas in BC where he broke guilds upon his massive pimp fist.
DnD isn't about solo play, when you played PnP DnD was it by yourself ? I fracking doubt it and as such I feel gameplay should be more like that.
This game isn't going to be great if 90% of the content you run solo with hirelings stooges, just take a look at ddo how how damn boring the game is now.
This is "suppose" to be a MMO not a single player game with multiplayer options.
I'm hoping when it comes to the "delves" you can't use hireling and stuff like that and you need to form "real" parties
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That sounds like fun. Tell me if you ever develop that!
And as for the rest of these questions is there a RAID option:
*sigh* why doesn't anybody read my FAQ?
That's it. No multiple person above 5 for a Raid, and SPECIFICALLY an hour or less for the reasons posted above. Trust me when I say that if I were in Beta right now, I'd post the exact same thing I had posted this on some Beta thread or FAQ. This was specifically addressed in articles like this and changing it goes against the MMO negative aspects and D&D themes this game is. Period. Can it change? Yeah. Would it change? As likely as PvP taking over all of D&D here.
Welcome to the MMO view of gaming As. Solo has gone from an option to an "inalienable right" to some.
Ya I know how it is in many new MMOs I'm just surprised the DnD crowd has been conned into this type of mentality.
I'd like to see how a PnP DnD session would go with 1 person and 4 "hirelings" lol
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I agree 100% with this. Hirelings/henchmen should definitely not be allowed in raids/dungeon delves.
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Got to agree that hirelings destroyed the DDO for me. And the hirelings even had a supply of SP pots ... ... ...
This is kind of like being on a Titanic, seeing the iceberg coming but not being able to do anything about it.
I really hope those features work out, but ive seen solo friendly game after solo friendly game lack proper coop content and fail in the end. I hope this is not the case with NWO, but we shall see. No raids is definetly a HUGE mistake, i dont think ive ever enjoyed a raid more than i did in EQ with 70+ massive raids. Nothing new even comes close in challenge and excitement.
5man "dunge devle" just doesnt sound right for the "most challenging content".
I understand your oracle powers but hold your judgment till the game is out at-least
*Evil Grin* Can I DM?
Actually I have played some very fun tabletop D&D with just one player and the DM. I've played tabletop D&D with any number of people, up to 10 players. It's perfectly doable - I've found it gets more difficult to manage the more people you have.
It's not very comparable with MMOs though as you can't get very creative. The hard coding limits your options to a very large degree so things get wonky. I've found in a D&D game, for example, rogues make very very good "solo" classes. High skills means lots of options. It rarely works out that way in MMOs, which are generally all about fighting.
C'mon Truth, Soloing was a part of the original MMORPGs; a very important part actually. The whole forced group content thing is something developers made up to shut all the complainers up. Just like instances. Sure people who think WoW was the first MMO might not get it, but that doesn't change the fact that soloing is, and always has been a valid way to play MMO's, and it has nothing to do with being anti-social. Soloing is also a part of DnD; not everyone grew up in an area with a ripe crop of nerds to draw from. It's called using your imagination...remember that?
Lets not forget that while this may be based on 4e DnD, it's also going to be an MMORPG, and the two aren't actually a pair made in heaven. Compromise on both sides is going to be needed if this game is going to be a success. Ask yourself this; would you rather have someone who enjoys soloing play the game, and spend money in the cash shop, thereby helping keep the game alive, or would you rather close down the solo crowd entirely, and lose out on their money.
I have said it before, and yeah, I'm saying it again, I love to group, but sometimes want the option to solo. Dismissing a whole group of potential players based on prejudices, and misconception is pretty sad; solo play hurts no one. Snarky remarks about "inalienable rights" come across as not only arrogant, but quite frankly ignorant as well. I expect more from you of all people on this board. The game designers have the final say, not you, or I, or anyone else; all we can do is toss around ideas, and decide if we play or not based on their decisions.
I don't know maybe the fact that I have played DnD for 30 years, and MMO's for close to 14 gives me a different perspective on things; a rose colored perspective where people welcome all types of players into the fold...pfft what am I thinking, this is the intrawebs.
You misunderstand. I don't mind soloing in MMOs and encourage doing it when not grouping, which I do a LOT in a game with no currently joined guilds or active joined guiklds with no members on and no reliable Pick-Up-Group or PUG members.
I'm actually against those who insist ONLY soloing for MMO playing. Allow me to explain.
Note: the following is the poster's opinion and should not be construed as the cannon of this or other multi-player games...no matter how right the poster may (or impossibly as it may turn out, may not) be.
He he, let me be silly there, but I'll seriously continue:
It's the overall arrogance that people treat MMO's currently like their own little version of The Elder Scrolls/Dragon Age and insist all games have a solo option or they won't consider buying it!
I remember multi-player games before the pretty graphics when we had to rely on text, then ANSI then basic graphics when VGA meant Very Good Acronym.
I saw precursors that paved the way to games like Everquest (Meridian 59 anybody?) And I saw how the social gaming was revolutionized forever by the MMO. We finally had a computer option around the WORLD to play games with others AND use reliable graphics to make it feel like the quality of one of those "solo" games!
Somewhere, we lost our way when we made AI so good, people took the multiplayer out of the game for these levels of interaction and it was assumed everything was either too easy to do in scriptiing it shouldn't have multi-player (even when those games were based on single player games which are impossible to script like that in multi-player it being vital to have a closed environment to make you the target of all attention mechanically speaking) or so tedious to group, you'll just OP the mission and solo it. Or just you're so OP you're soloing this RAID somehow, so ALL RAIDS must be able to do this because you did it before....again, see arrogance.
We lost our way bvecause we lost our collective balance. (Having the attitude that "everybody wins in competition" didn't help that generation learn boundries and "no" either, but that's a whole other topic I'm not discussing here further.) We need to learn how to play together because that's what the MMO stands for. I mean it's ir's in the [censored swear word of your choice] Acronym! MASSIVE MULTI-PLAYER ONLINE ROLE PLAYING GAME. Being more veteran, I expected to have to explain the classic meaning of the RPG part, but the MMO, that truly is despondant.
So in conclusion (or for this ADD world, tl;dr) there isn't anything wrong with solo in MMORPG's even if it's not the primary setup for this type of game as an option, but it should never be a demanded right or refusal to play in this kind of game.
Hope that clears things up, and do play solo folks,
just don't throw a fit if every mission can't be done that way either.
Likewise I don't want to be forced to suffer a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> just because I need to finish a Dungeon. I honestly think that when it comes down to it the vast majority of gamers today (I'm not talking about the hardcore RPG players or Hardcore progression raiders) think like I do.
I have DMed Pen and Paper RPG's with just two people and as many as twelve both were fun but I never want to be force to either extreme either. As long as a game doesn't punish me for whatever style I feel like at the time I'm cool, but I just have zero tolerance when a drum beater of a specific play style tells me I'm wrong and need to go play EQ or skyrim and to get out of their playground. (NOT THAT I'M SAYING ANYONE HAS SAID THAT HERE)
Though I don't always hit the mark my goal is tolerance of other gamers and their play styles and folks in general. So I will group with you, duo with you and when I can't do that solo...but I want the choice to do all three and I don't want to be punished no matter what I choose.
MMO to me doesn't mean having to run a maze with so many other cookie cutter builds, it doesn't mean endlessly grinding quest with bots or even without them, it means a living world of people and possibilities that I can explore on my terms.
That might be naive, but after gaming since 78 it's what satisfies me personally.
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THIS
is what I believe in. All ways are fine, but don't force me to do it your way or say I'm an idiot/get out.
There might be times I have to choose a style to realistically finish a game, but I'd rather not have the community dictate how I must think on this or be so disconnected to the game itself with...other's social inabilities to group well that I feel punished if I do.
Thanks Storm!
Me personally will always choose group play even if there is an <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> since if you go in with the right attitudes asshats can be a fun enjoyable experience. I remember some of the best times I had in wow was tearing through heroics with best in slot gear getting marks for heirloom gear. Just messing with people is so much fun and really thats a part of the mmo I would never give up for doing a dungeon a little faster.
Also on the elitist spectrum I have played games like FFXI were the soloing existed from 1-12 and from there on you had to group because mobs lower than your level could kill you. You had to make the deadly trek to "the dunes" and level in partys there.
But leveling in that game was like Everquest, if you looked for a group you were in it for like 5-6 hours since it took so much time to get to where you were leveling. I played a bard in FFXI which made finding groups annoyingly easy, (Like getting flooded with invites a min after logging on) hell people would bid for your services paying you per the hour to join their group. b:laugh
A game should try to cater to a specific audience, a specific type of player and meet most of the demands of that specific audience.
If, as a side effect, other than the specific targeted audience will find the game fun and enjoy it, well, that's a bonus.
A fantasy MMORPG should emphasize lore, story, class roles, character progressing, hard to achieve goals, hard work, competitions and GROUPING. The ENDGAME is most important, endgame content should be doable by only a percent of players, there has to be competition and hard to achieve goals which once achieved should give a sense of accomplishment.
A game where any player is able to do anything regardless of skills, time invested and work invested is just a fail game.
There are tons of fail MMOs. Devs tried to cater to all types of audiences and they failed. There are only a handful of good and successful MMMORPGS.
You want to play a GOOD MMORPG or you just want a place to hang out?
Good and fail are very squishy terms, a developer can have an accessible philosophy without being all things to all people, also anytime you alienate a large group of people ( and trust me Soloist/duoist/social/crafters/RPers are a huge interconnected group) you run the risk of becoming a niche game that only a handful of people play.
The intelligent thing to do is to let you players have adventures on their terms, either as a group (aka Drizzt, Regis, Bruenor,Catibre and Wulfgar) as a team (Elric and Moonglum) or as a lone hero (Conan) once you deny these Authoritative bases you are painting yourself in a corner and are basically becoming an Algorithm with a fantasy paint job.
The reason I say "have adventures" is there is a certain malaise (that only the genius possess and the insane lament :P ) in the genre now players are tired of being heros ascendeds, Deavas and Ubergods, ask them what they want and most will say I just want to be a explorer/adventure saving the world gets old....and that is very telling where the genre is heading I think.
What the hardcores (hardcore progression raiders and hardcore RPG players) want is something that they can compete and beat, and MMO's are evolving into much more than that. There are MMO's out there that require you to have a large group at end game if you want to even see certain content, everyone has to press the correct series of buttons and have the correct build, it's silly to demand that all MMO's be like that, there has to be some diversity and that diversity is what will keep the genre alive.
Thank you Truth, looks like we are actually in agreement in spirit; sometimes things are lost in translation. I always appreciate a level headed response, even if I sometimes get a little, how should I say it...passionate about the concept of freedom of choice in MMORPGs.
No problem and well said.
Originally MMO's were designed with the concept that there were a lot of players on at once to choose to play with. It was only later on that forced group content was implemented and honestly the biggest reason it is there is because the relationships it builds and the responsibility it requires makes it hard to leave the game.
It's a money maker through and through.
Other MMO's I played the games became less and less solo/small group friendly over time copying the WoW raid system. I detest spending time organizing raids and the drama involved with massive groups. I'm all for playing with friends, but when friends become random people and playing becomes hours of team organization I find myself gritting my teeth.
I think the industry will slowly learn that while raids have their niche and are indeed profitable the WoW raid standard has to go because it alienates large amounts of players who don't like Multiplayer Massive Games.
The goal of any MMO should be to give players the opportunity to play with as many or few players as they want. Forcing it will eventually be done away with.
"massively multiplayer" <> "co-op multiplayer"
I hope it is clear enough.
if i was a mod.. /delete + move on
Very true, and you really hear less and less people demanding that MMO's have to have a group centric end game, even many of the hard core progression raiders will say "No, no by all means give them their own endgame..they have come to realize that MMO's need every player they can get and more options means they are less likely to have their particular play style co-opted by the dare I say it.."casuals"
The solo dungeons that both Age of Conan and RIFT did were super popular and actually alleviated a lot of friction between the two player bases, oh sure you still had the occasional jerk in both camps trying to stir the pot, but all in all it was good for the game and the overall community and really I think that you end up with a more pleasant community when someone doesn't have to enter that dungeon with you