test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
I have cause for concern
lorddevilkun
Member Posts: 60
I've seen a lot of mmos at launch, and I've seen alot of the same thing- failure.
I want to see this game succeed, but after participating in GW2 beta weekends, I'm reminded of why I'm losing faith in this industry's ability to both innovate and advance, and also in making something entertaining and modern.
I can't say for certain what everyone wants, and I can't expect someone to take me seriously on the flipside if I just say I want something- but, I'm going to say what I think based on what I've seen to be growing trends and feelings in recent mmos I've played.
PvP
Now, I haven't actually seen info on pvp, I don't think there will be- and I think that's fine. PvP is a headache and a half- I have never seen a pve/pvp game where the pvp forums are even 10% as mature as the pve ones- it's generally non stop complaining, whining, nerf cries, insults, etc...
There also tends to be a lot of 'class balancing' around pvp that hurts pve a great deal too.
In the end- there's nothing wrong with specializing in pve, especially as a F2P game with one faction.... it really reduces the headache when it comes to making abilities when you only worry about how they effect mobs. So, I won't get into this (if someone corrects me and there is pvp, I'll get into it more)
User Interface
We look at it, we use it for our spells, inventory and going through all our various char sheets, achievements, etc...
Yet it often feels like they designed it in an afternoon one day.
WoW had the worst and the best UI ever- worst because the one the game came with was terrible (even more so in Vanilla), but fantastic because of all the Add ons. Now, while that's good cause to have add ons, I don't think add ons are necessary.
A good UI needs
- Customization - being able to change the sizes, placements of bars and overlays. Choosing how your flytext,
- Easy to use - the game should be challenging, using the tools should not. Being able to do the customization mentioned above should be easy, have it in a menu choice with all UI customization. This seems like it should be obvious, but GW2 has strayed from that and I wouldn't want to see NW do the same.
- Make using abilities simple - Grey out abilities when off CD or out of range (unless the game's aimed like DDO was), or provide a clear visual cue of some sort.
- Make tool tips tell you exactly what they do- the option to make tool tips brief or full is a great one to have in the UI menu, as you don't need a huge description of an ability once you're used to it... but you might when you just start playing. It's annoying, really really annoying, to have to leave the game, search the website, then search for some sort of wiki guide or something-head which may or may not have up to date info, or rely on number crunchers to tell me what the ability I'm using actually does.
If 'rainbow fireball' fires an aoe of 20 ft ability that does 200 base damage (it'd be fantastic if the damage was calculated in the tool tip off my gear too), has a 6 second snare that reduces speed by 30%, and has a 10% chance to stun. SAY IT IN THE TOOLTIP! Don't say 'Fires a rainbow fireball at enemies', I figure that from the ability name, and especially don't just list a bunch of things '30% movement, chance to stun, aoe damage' does that increase my movement by 30%? What's the chance to stun? How much damage does it do?
Also- if the ability changes after use (GW2 has abilities that when used turn into another ability) let us know what the second ability does, because that's important. It'd be even greater if the TT changes to match your talent points- if I take a talent that reduces the cost of casting rainbow fireball by 50%, actually reduce the cost of casting it in my tooltip! Also, make it clear if something stacks- most debuffs don't stack, but sometimes poisons do, and some do stack- I'd love to know if my 'burning poison' stacks with another thief's 'burning poison' because if it doesn't then we're wasting poison for no good reason
- Timers and buffs - making buffs, debuffs and my own abilities distinct is vital. If I had two rows of buffs on me, and some of them look like mine and some don't, I might have no clue if I buffed myself. Similarly- on enemies I want to see if my debuffs are there. There's simple ways to do this- mainly a size boost to your own abilities, keeping debuffs/buffs on separate bars. Colour coding goes a long way in telling you what an ability does, as do appropriate visuals.
Timers are a good one- not only for your abilities, but if you drop a 20 second mez on someone, it's simply convenient for a timer bar to come up saying 'there's 5 seconds left'
- Pretty - now this is cosmetic only, not a big deal- but changing the shape of buttons, making them look more sleak, visual overlay changes are all nice touches that players will appreciate, and aren't overwhelming time consumers (I mean, in WoW, these things are done by players for free all the time, so an actual dev has all the tools to make it great)
- Our Tools - this includes stuff like the mini map. The map in particular is a tool we will use all the time- so make vital things obvious on the map, make it clear how to read it especially when you have levels, even include things like path to take for winding areas to get to a quest.
Don't make hubs needlessly large- people like having a market in one condense area- we don't want to run for ten minutes to get to our bank, then another ten to the ring store, then another to the armour store- if you're going to have needless space, make it in the wildnerness/quest areas, or on the town outskirts where there's maybe the taverns or less essential places.... basically, put anything that's going to be used daily in the same place, and put the stuff that you might use on occassion elsewhere if you need to.
Character Customization
Now, I'm not talking cosmetics- though that's also very important, I think there's enough people talking about how much we need various hairs, looks- the ability to be rugged and serious as well as overly cute like some anime character, size changes, etc.... I don't think this is a big deal for these companies- Perfect World the game, though very anime oriented, had extremely broad facial customization. Cryptic's CoH and Champions both have oodles of gear and face and.... everything customization really.
I'm talking more about abilities and talent trees.
I, and I'm sure many others, are getting tired of having 1 or 2 specs per class that are the best specs, maybe another 1 or 2 that are viable- and then everything else is poor. This happens mainly by giving very limited choice- you must pick five talent points per tree level, there's only a total of 8, and likely only 6 of the talent points are actually worth it. Add to that having the final talent being the most vital to get, and you end up with having maybe a handful of actual choice to make in the end after you've decided if you're going to be a dps cleric or a healing cleric.
You see people using the same abilities, the same trees, the same everything because that's the only way to go. It's stale from the outside, it doesn't give players much variety themselves, and it makes the game way too predictable.
Most of us can tell you exactly what spec someone is going to be running if they're class X doing role Y in a raid, or in pvp- and you'll be spamming this ability, then this, then this. You can literally learn how to play any class in WoW or SWTOR or <insert most mmorpgs here> just by reading up the guide- and it's simple enough that only one guide's needed per tree (and generally that even comes with a 'this tree is the best tree for pvp, this for pve')
I admittedly don't know 4e rules much, I know 3.5... and I've never seen much variety in warriors and rogues.
But clerics and wizards in particular have hundreds of spells- yes, some of them are very situational, useless to a point compared to others. But even just looking at DDO- sure, there were arguments that one spec was the best.... but I saw guides for glass canon wizards, fire wizards, acid wizards, pale masters, frost wizards, hybrid types- there were a good 20+ different builds- VASTLY different at that- and all of them had strengths, weaknesses, and viability.
This is Dungeons and Dragons- I really, really want to see the incredible variety and uniqueness of classes come into play- because in DDO, or table top, or games like Neverwinter Nights, I'm sure all of us have made some bizzarre combinations and abilities work very well, and be fun. If I find out all endgame wizards are shooting firebolt 3x, then fireball when its off CD, and lightning bolt next for a proc of 10% bonus power to disintegrate.... then rinse and repeat and that's the only way to get into raids as a wizard, I am going to be very disappointed.
If I see one wizard throwing down a cloudkill, then a wall of stone, then displacement kiting when they get close, mirror image to lose threat, dropping fire rune traps- and another is just going all out with lightning bolt, cone of cold, finger of death and using a warrior as their form of mitigation, and a final one has decided to focus on utility- prismatic spray, haste, gust of wind to disperse enemy aoe poisons, summons a hell hound, stoneskins allies--- we can have three very different, very viable builds that can rely on anything from allies to straight up damage to misdirection/kiting to aoe.... and only with listing 5% of the abilities a wizard has.
The game is coming from a lore with decades of choice lined up for you- I really hope you use all that choice to make something fantastic out of it.
PvE
The crux of the game- solo and cooperative pve.
There's so much I can get into here, so I'm sure I'll add more. I'll separate this into different sections too.
Storyline
I'm playing GW2 right now- a game with much more limited lore, but GW1 and stories have given it some lore, some good lore, and have made it a gritty background with lots of potential. Then we look at the stylized artwork of GW2, and it really makes me think 'oh boy, this is going to be hardcore'.
Then we get into the game and the lore's there as a backdrop- not integrated into the quests, characters, interactions- it's just there. The hero is a 2D goody two shoes, no personality, must defeat evil now just because it's there type. The hero's closest allies are stereotypes, tropes which are just as boring and flat.
The scripting was written for children who like old super hero cartoons. And it feels like a charr necromancer, a norn hunter and a human guardian can all walk into any village and people will treat them like they're the same thing.
My point is- PLEASE don't do this.
Forgotten Realms is full of jerks, it's full of prejudice, it's full of idiots as much as it is geniuses. Does it have shining paragons? Sure, Drizzt comes to mind pretty quickly. BUT, Toril has 9 alignments from Lawful Good to Chaotic Evil. There's countless gods for everything from dwarves to justice to death to magic to luck to necromancy, etc.....
It is gritty- now I understand we won't get an M rating- it'll likely be T. But even in T you don't have to make people nice, you don't have to treat us like we're five and bad means a wicked witch with a wart in black clothing that eats children and hates pretty things, and good means you're a knight in shining armour who tries to abstain from killing and gives their money away.
Yes- those things fit (for the most part evil creatures in D&D are hidious and often also rather 2D.... you meet one troll or orc or red dragon, you met them all), but there needs to be variety, and more and more we're moving away from that (consider the orcs I just mentioned, and how they're becoming more and more close to being a relatively welcome part of the world... and consider tieflings, etc...).
We're seeing more insight into what used to be just a mindless horde of monsters that are there to make good people's lives suck.
Also- you're making a game in Neverwinter. Plague, undead, treason, betrayal, treachery, pirates, espionage, etc.... all gritty things that have been part of this city's past. It's so much to work on.
Consider also the racial divides. Dwarves, drow, elves- they act differently, they are received differently than other races. I don't want to see NPCs dispersed as if someone has a racial quota and needs every area to have x amount of each class, and has just put a race into spots where needed without any thought behind it.
I'll say that two games did a good job of sticking with the lore and characters, and in very different ways.
SWTOR- Bioware is known for it, so no surprise- the ability to give choice helped alot, and it felt like everyone you met fit, like it was all carefully crafted.... now, they had a large budget and focus on that- so I don't expect this to be the same... on the flipside...
DDO- perfect, another D&D game. Not too much focus was actually put on your character, so you don't get the feeling words are being put in your mouth (as GW2 does). You have a variety of quests, none of which really feel like you're being either a saint or a monster by doing them- they're all pretty neutral, generally the motives being 'you're an adventurer looking for reward'. For a holy pally- that reward can be doing good. For anyone else, the reward can be... well, the reward. That, and the huge variety of stories being told keep it very interesting.
It's not specific enough though that you ever feel you're playing the character Turbine wants you to play- and that's great for anyone, doubly so for RPers.
Variety
This is D&D. I've had pnp sessions where we had one or zero fights, I've had dungeon delves full of combat, I've gone through trapped areas and I've dealt with intellectual dillemmas and choices. I've fought hordes of orcs, single dragons, golem lords, I've protected villages from marauders, I've sieged castles, I've saved a friend from being dropped two kilometers with skillful use of a summoned air elemental, I've had a friend blow us up by casting fireball in a methane pit while fighting an otyguth.... and another time casting fireball in a forest and not caring for the details.
Point is- this is all in the same game, yet the possibilities for plots are endless.
We all know there's going to be diablo style dungeon delving- that's not a problem, it makes up a majority of pnp, video games, etc... and alot of us want alot of combat- combat's fun.
There's thousands of monsters for us to fight, so there's huge variety there to use when making this game.
And we all know there's traps too- that's a huge part of the genre, and we look forward to it.
What about the environment though? Will spells synergize- like grease and fireball? Will we see siege, army command or city defense missions? How about stealth missions, or perhaps even multiple paths to the same conclusion? In Deus Ex HR, I could run in guns blazing, or hack some turrets/machines, or stealth by, or crawl through vents- all end the same way, but are different playstyles.
From the videos I've seen so far, it seemed a lot of 'wade through armies of skeletons' that reminds me of Diablo. I really hope though that is just what they've shown us, and we get the variety that DDO brought us.
Challenge/Replay/Achievement
Maybe it's a cheap ploy to get people to play more- proof that the 'gotta catch'm all' mentality that keeps kids buying pokemon games over and over works just as well with our PS3 trophy lists and WoW achievements.
But... it clearly works. Since it really has no benefit, or minor cosmetic ones like mounts/pets- it's very easily a voluntary system for those who do/don't like it.
Replay and challenge are big ones that do have an effect- we're seeing more and more pushes towards 'hardmodes' and 'optionals', things that makes fights harder, often for reward of some sort.
Before you consider just 'multiplying all enemy stats by 10' though, I think taking a look at AI and enemy strategy can help you make a challenging game. We understand real AI can be out of reach- but why don't these intelligent bosses aim for the healer... heck, why don't they have their own healer? If they're in their lair, they should have their own traps, back up plans. They should have their own abilities beyond just 'rawr smash!'.
It'd be even more fanastic if enemies were smarter if they were smarter.
Sure, zombies will just shamble at you slowly, being easily kited and falling for the same tricks over and over, walking into your fire trap even though they just did it ten times.
A balor though might chase you into a fire trap once or twice- but they aren't stupid enough that they'll let you kite them through fifty of your traps (well, ok, so technically a balor is immune to fire- but you get my point). Int 10 creatures aren't stupid, they'll learn how to avoid things eventually. Int 20 creatures are near godlike intelligent and will not fall for your tricks, they won't ignore healers, etc....
I'd prefer smarter enemies- or, at the least, boss fights that add more mechanics over simply making 'challenge' about more numbers and nothing else....
And please don't go with 'let us put an enrage timer on everything to make it harder!'. That's a MECHANIC for ONE boss, not a mechanic for all bosses- that's something that should be used sparsely for a fight where you want to really test dpsers, or where dpsers should have alot of time to be dealing damage (ie- an enemy that just wails on the tank). Nobody minds if there's some bland, dps fest fights mixed in- the key is variety, mix it up. If a boss is going to go 'rawr smash!' after ten minutes... why didn't he just do that the moment he saw us!? At least a logical enrage timer, or soft enrages.
1st example of hard- large iron golem is knocking down pillars to get us during fight, after a certain amount of time he's knocked down enough that the ceiling collapses, killing the party instantly. MAKES SENSE, and it's a timer for that boss
2nd example, soft enrage- boss lays down hard hitting aoes, the fight's on a hill, and lava is pouring in slowly- the longer the fight goes, the less room you have to avoid the aoes and thus, the more chance you have of dying.
Bad example- TEN MINUTES PASS I GET MAD, SEX AND THE CITY IS ON NOW I MUST WATCH IT SO I SMASH U AND GO WATCH- signed, the two headed giant troll Ugg.
Anyway- that's all for now, I'm sure I have more concerns eventually, but that took a bit to write up. Ultimately- I'm not going back to WoW, SWTOR's pvp is atrocious, GW2 is looking to be awful for pve and not sure if it'll keep me on the pvp yet.... I want this game to be good, I loved DDO to a degree but it felt unfinished- if this game is DDO if DDO was done right from the start, this WILL be my mmo.
If it ends up being WoW or Diablo with a D&D coat of paint though, I'll probably play it for a month or two before wondering why I bothered.
This market is oversaturated in mmorpgs- but not in ones that try to stand out. DDO does stand out, as a more action oriented game Neverwinter can stand out- I have high hopes as much as I have concerns.
Looking forward to the game.
I want to see this game succeed, but after participating in GW2 beta weekends, I'm reminded of why I'm losing faith in this industry's ability to both innovate and advance, and also in making something entertaining and modern.
I can't say for certain what everyone wants, and I can't expect someone to take me seriously on the flipside if I just say I want something- but, I'm going to say what I think based on what I've seen to be growing trends and feelings in recent mmos I've played.
PvP
Now, I haven't actually seen info on pvp, I don't think there will be- and I think that's fine. PvP is a headache and a half- I have never seen a pve/pvp game where the pvp forums are even 10% as mature as the pve ones- it's generally non stop complaining, whining, nerf cries, insults, etc...
There also tends to be a lot of 'class balancing' around pvp that hurts pve a great deal too.
In the end- there's nothing wrong with specializing in pve, especially as a F2P game with one faction.... it really reduces the headache when it comes to making abilities when you only worry about how they effect mobs. So, I won't get into this (if someone corrects me and there is pvp, I'll get into it more)
User Interface
We look at it, we use it for our spells, inventory and going through all our various char sheets, achievements, etc...
Yet it often feels like they designed it in an afternoon one day.
WoW had the worst and the best UI ever- worst because the one the game came with was terrible (even more so in Vanilla), but fantastic because of all the Add ons. Now, while that's good cause to have add ons, I don't think add ons are necessary.
A good UI needs
- Customization - being able to change the sizes, placements of bars and overlays. Choosing how your flytext,
- Easy to use - the game should be challenging, using the tools should not. Being able to do the customization mentioned above should be easy, have it in a menu choice with all UI customization. This seems like it should be obvious, but GW2 has strayed from that and I wouldn't want to see NW do the same.
- Make using abilities simple - Grey out abilities when off CD or out of range (unless the game's aimed like DDO was), or provide a clear visual cue of some sort.
- Make tool tips tell you exactly what they do- the option to make tool tips brief or full is a great one to have in the UI menu, as you don't need a huge description of an ability once you're used to it... but you might when you just start playing. It's annoying, really really annoying, to have to leave the game, search the website, then search for some sort of wiki guide or something-head which may or may not have up to date info, or rely on number crunchers to tell me what the ability I'm using actually does.
If 'rainbow fireball' fires an aoe of 20 ft ability that does 200 base damage (it'd be fantastic if the damage was calculated in the tool tip off my gear too), has a 6 second snare that reduces speed by 30%, and has a 10% chance to stun. SAY IT IN THE TOOLTIP! Don't say 'Fires a rainbow fireball at enemies', I figure that from the ability name, and especially don't just list a bunch of things '30% movement, chance to stun, aoe damage' does that increase my movement by 30%? What's the chance to stun? How much damage does it do?
Also- if the ability changes after use (GW2 has abilities that when used turn into another ability) let us know what the second ability does, because that's important. It'd be even greater if the TT changes to match your talent points- if I take a talent that reduces the cost of casting rainbow fireball by 50%, actually reduce the cost of casting it in my tooltip! Also, make it clear if something stacks- most debuffs don't stack, but sometimes poisons do, and some do stack- I'd love to know if my 'burning poison' stacks with another thief's 'burning poison' because if it doesn't then we're wasting poison for no good reason
- Timers and buffs - making buffs, debuffs and my own abilities distinct is vital. If I had two rows of buffs on me, and some of them look like mine and some don't, I might have no clue if I buffed myself. Similarly- on enemies I want to see if my debuffs are there. There's simple ways to do this- mainly a size boost to your own abilities, keeping debuffs/buffs on separate bars. Colour coding goes a long way in telling you what an ability does, as do appropriate visuals.
Timers are a good one- not only for your abilities, but if you drop a 20 second mez on someone, it's simply convenient for a timer bar to come up saying 'there's 5 seconds left'
- Pretty - now this is cosmetic only, not a big deal- but changing the shape of buttons, making them look more sleak, visual overlay changes are all nice touches that players will appreciate, and aren't overwhelming time consumers (I mean, in WoW, these things are done by players for free all the time, so an actual dev has all the tools to make it great)
- Our Tools - this includes stuff like the mini map. The map in particular is a tool we will use all the time- so make vital things obvious on the map, make it clear how to read it especially when you have levels, even include things like path to take for winding areas to get to a quest.
Don't make hubs needlessly large- people like having a market in one condense area- we don't want to run for ten minutes to get to our bank, then another ten to the ring store, then another to the armour store- if you're going to have needless space, make it in the wildnerness/quest areas, or on the town outskirts where there's maybe the taverns or less essential places.... basically, put anything that's going to be used daily in the same place, and put the stuff that you might use on occassion elsewhere if you need to.
Character Customization
Now, I'm not talking cosmetics- though that's also very important, I think there's enough people talking about how much we need various hairs, looks- the ability to be rugged and serious as well as overly cute like some anime character, size changes, etc.... I don't think this is a big deal for these companies- Perfect World the game, though very anime oriented, had extremely broad facial customization. Cryptic's CoH and Champions both have oodles of gear and face and.... everything customization really.
I'm talking more about abilities and talent trees.
I, and I'm sure many others, are getting tired of having 1 or 2 specs per class that are the best specs, maybe another 1 or 2 that are viable- and then everything else is poor. This happens mainly by giving very limited choice- you must pick five talent points per tree level, there's only a total of 8, and likely only 6 of the talent points are actually worth it. Add to that having the final talent being the most vital to get, and you end up with having maybe a handful of actual choice to make in the end after you've decided if you're going to be a dps cleric or a healing cleric.
You see people using the same abilities, the same trees, the same everything because that's the only way to go. It's stale from the outside, it doesn't give players much variety themselves, and it makes the game way too predictable.
Most of us can tell you exactly what spec someone is going to be running if they're class X doing role Y in a raid, or in pvp- and you'll be spamming this ability, then this, then this. You can literally learn how to play any class in WoW or SWTOR or <insert most mmorpgs here> just by reading up the guide- and it's simple enough that only one guide's needed per tree (and generally that even comes with a 'this tree is the best tree for pvp, this for pve')
I admittedly don't know 4e rules much, I know 3.5... and I've never seen much variety in warriors and rogues.
But clerics and wizards in particular have hundreds of spells- yes, some of them are very situational, useless to a point compared to others. But even just looking at DDO- sure, there were arguments that one spec was the best.... but I saw guides for glass canon wizards, fire wizards, acid wizards, pale masters, frost wizards, hybrid types- there were a good 20+ different builds- VASTLY different at that- and all of them had strengths, weaknesses, and viability.
This is Dungeons and Dragons- I really, really want to see the incredible variety and uniqueness of classes come into play- because in DDO, or table top, or games like Neverwinter Nights, I'm sure all of us have made some bizzarre combinations and abilities work very well, and be fun. If I find out all endgame wizards are shooting firebolt 3x, then fireball when its off CD, and lightning bolt next for a proc of 10% bonus power to disintegrate.... then rinse and repeat and that's the only way to get into raids as a wizard, I am going to be very disappointed.
If I see one wizard throwing down a cloudkill, then a wall of stone, then displacement kiting when they get close, mirror image to lose threat, dropping fire rune traps- and another is just going all out with lightning bolt, cone of cold, finger of death and using a warrior as their form of mitigation, and a final one has decided to focus on utility- prismatic spray, haste, gust of wind to disperse enemy aoe poisons, summons a hell hound, stoneskins allies--- we can have three very different, very viable builds that can rely on anything from allies to straight up damage to misdirection/kiting to aoe.... and only with listing 5% of the abilities a wizard has.
The game is coming from a lore with decades of choice lined up for you- I really hope you use all that choice to make something fantastic out of it.
PvE
The crux of the game- solo and cooperative pve.
There's so much I can get into here, so I'm sure I'll add more. I'll separate this into different sections too.
Storyline
I'm playing GW2 right now- a game with much more limited lore, but GW1 and stories have given it some lore, some good lore, and have made it a gritty background with lots of potential. Then we look at the stylized artwork of GW2, and it really makes me think 'oh boy, this is going to be hardcore'.
Then we get into the game and the lore's there as a backdrop- not integrated into the quests, characters, interactions- it's just there. The hero is a 2D goody two shoes, no personality, must defeat evil now just because it's there type. The hero's closest allies are stereotypes, tropes which are just as boring and flat.
The scripting was written for children who like old super hero cartoons. And it feels like a charr necromancer, a norn hunter and a human guardian can all walk into any village and people will treat them like they're the same thing.
My point is- PLEASE don't do this.
Forgotten Realms is full of jerks, it's full of prejudice, it's full of idiots as much as it is geniuses. Does it have shining paragons? Sure, Drizzt comes to mind pretty quickly. BUT, Toril has 9 alignments from Lawful Good to Chaotic Evil. There's countless gods for everything from dwarves to justice to death to magic to luck to necromancy, etc.....
It is gritty- now I understand we won't get an M rating- it'll likely be T. But even in T you don't have to make people nice, you don't have to treat us like we're five and bad means a wicked witch with a wart in black clothing that eats children and hates pretty things, and good means you're a knight in shining armour who tries to abstain from killing and gives their money away.
Yes- those things fit (for the most part evil creatures in D&D are hidious and often also rather 2D.... you meet one troll or orc or red dragon, you met them all), but there needs to be variety, and more and more we're moving away from that (consider the orcs I just mentioned, and how they're becoming more and more close to being a relatively welcome part of the world... and consider tieflings, etc...).
We're seeing more insight into what used to be just a mindless horde of monsters that are there to make good people's lives suck.
Also- you're making a game in Neverwinter. Plague, undead, treason, betrayal, treachery, pirates, espionage, etc.... all gritty things that have been part of this city's past. It's so much to work on.
Consider also the racial divides. Dwarves, drow, elves- they act differently, they are received differently than other races. I don't want to see NPCs dispersed as if someone has a racial quota and needs every area to have x amount of each class, and has just put a race into spots where needed without any thought behind it.
I'll say that two games did a good job of sticking with the lore and characters, and in very different ways.
SWTOR- Bioware is known for it, so no surprise- the ability to give choice helped alot, and it felt like everyone you met fit, like it was all carefully crafted.... now, they had a large budget and focus on that- so I don't expect this to be the same... on the flipside...
DDO- perfect, another D&D game. Not too much focus was actually put on your character, so you don't get the feeling words are being put in your mouth (as GW2 does). You have a variety of quests, none of which really feel like you're being either a saint or a monster by doing them- they're all pretty neutral, generally the motives being 'you're an adventurer looking for reward'. For a holy pally- that reward can be doing good. For anyone else, the reward can be... well, the reward. That, and the huge variety of stories being told keep it very interesting.
It's not specific enough though that you ever feel you're playing the character Turbine wants you to play- and that's great for anyone, doubly so for RPers.
Variety
This is D&D. I've had pnp sessions where we had one or zero fights, I've had dungeon delves full of combat, I've gone through trapped areas and I've dealt with intellectual dillemmas and choices. I've fought hordes of orcs, single dragons, golem lords, I've protected villages from marauders, I've sieged castles, I've saved a friend from being dropped two kilometers with skillful use of a summoned air elemental, I've had a friend blow us up by casting fireball in a methane pit while fighting an otyguth.... and another time casting fireball in a forest and not caring for the details.
Point is- this is all in the same game, yet the possibilities for plots are endless.
We all know there's going to be diablo style dungeon delving- that's not a problem, it makes up a majority of pnp, video games, etc... and alot of us want alot of combat- combat's fun.
There's thousands of monsters for us to fight, so there's huge variety there to use when making this game.
And we all know there's traps too- that's a huge part of the genre, and we look forward to it.
What about the environment though? Will spells synergize- like grease and fireball? Will we see siege, army command or city defense missions? How about stealth missions, or perhaps even multiple paths to the same conclusion? In Deus Ex HR, I could run in guns blazing, or hack some turrets/machines, or stealth by, or crawl through vents- all end the same way, but are different playstyles.
From the videos I've seen so far, it seemed a lot of 'wade through armies of skeletons' that reminds me of Diablo. I really hope though that is just what they've shown us, and we get the variety that DDO brought us.
Challenge/Replay/Achievement
Maybe it's a cheap ploy to get people to play more- proof that the 'gotta catch'm all' mentality that keeps kids buying pokemon games over and over works just as well with our PS3 trophy lists and WoW achievements.
But... it clearly works. Since it really has no benefit, or minor cosmetic ones like mounts/pets- it's very easily a voluntary system for those who do/don't like it.
Replay and challenge are big ones that do have an effect- we're seeing more and more pushes towards 'hardmodes' and 'optionals', things that makes fights harder, often for reward of some sort.
Before you consider just 'multiplying all enemy stats by 10' though, I think taking a look at AI and enemy strategy can help you make a challenging game. We understand real AI can be out of reach- but why don't these intelligent bosses aim for the healer... heck, why don't they have their own healer? If they're in their lair, they should have their own traps, back up plans. They should have their own abilities beyond just 'rawr smash!'.
It'd be even more fanastic if enemies were smarter if they were smarter.
Sure, zombies will just shamble at you slowly, being easily kited and falling for the same tricks over and over, walking into your fire trap even though they just did it ten times.
A balor though might chase you into a fire trap once or twice- but they aren't stupid enough that they'll let you kite them through fifty of your traps (well, ok, so technically a balor is immune to fire- but you get my point). Int 10 creatures aren't stupid, they'll learn how to avoid things eventually. Int 20 creatures are near godlike intelligent and will not fall for your tricks, they won't ignore healers, etc....
I'd prefer smarter enemies- or, at the least, boss fights that add more mechanics over simply making 'challenge' about more numbers and nothing else....
And please don't go with 'let us put an enrage timer on everything to make it harder!'. That's a MECHANIC for ONE boss, not a mechanic for all bosses- that's something that should be used sparsely for a fight where you want to really test dpsers, or where dpsers should have alot of time to be dealing damage (ie- an enemy that just wails on the tank). Nobody minds if there's some bland, dps fest fights mixed in- the key is variety, mix it up. If a boss is going to go 'rawr smash!' after ten minutes... why didn't he just do that the moment he saw us!? At least a logical enrage timer, or soft enrages.
1st example of hard- large iron golem is knocking down pillars to get us during fight, after a certain amount of time he's knocked down enough that the ceiling collapses, killing the party instantly. MAKES SENSE, and it's a timer for that boss
2nd example, soft enrage- boss lays down hard hitting aoes, the fight's on a hill, and lava is pouring in slowly- the longer the fight goes, the less room you have to avoid the aoes and thus, the more chance you have of dying.
Bad example- TEN MINUTES PASS I GET MAD, SEX AND THE CITY IS ON NOW I MUST WATCH IT SO I SMASH U AND GO WATCH- signed, the two headed giant troll Ugg.
Anyway- that's all for now, I'm sure I have more concerns eventually, but that took a bit to write up. Ultimately- I'm not going back to WoW, SWTOR's pvp is atrocious, GW2 is looking to be awful for pve and not sure if it'll keep me on the pvp yet.... I want this game to be good, I loved DDO to a degree but it felt unfinished- if this game is DDO if DDO was done right from the start, this WILL be my mmo.
If it ends up being WoW or Diablo with a D&D coat of paint though, I'll probably play it for a month or two before wondering why I bothered.
This market is oversaturated in mmorpgs- but not in ones that try to stand out. DDO does stand out, as a more action oriented game Neverwinter can stand out- I have high hopes as much as I have concerns.
Looking forward to the game.
Post edited by lorddevilkun on
0
Comments
I'm really hoping that this is user friendly, more so than NWN and NWN2's. This could be a huge selling point for the game- there's so many people who are 'armchair' designers, and this gives a small level of actual design to players.
If done well, this could be the backbone of the game, so I'm really hoping to see more of that.
PvP is essential to the success to any MMO, like it or not PvP is one of the most dominate pillars to MMOs. Even more dominate than PvE some might argue. To ignore this is just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and you are severely limiting your consumers.
Also most immaturity I've experienced in MMOs come from the PvEers not the PvPers. Some of the most mature communities I've had came from PvP focused communities like EVE while if your in a PvE focused community or a strong PvE elements I've seen some of the worst maturities ever.
Also, I'll have to admit that I did not read that (as I have read novels that are not quite as extensive as this Great Wall of Ch... I mean text) but one thing that caught my eyein it: I've never seen an MMORPG with skill tooltips that didn't offer detailed description of what exactly each skill does. Sure, there is sometimes the odd stun on which they've forgotten to write down the actual duration, but that's about it.
I particularly liked how in Forsaken World they even color-coded certain lines in the tooltio so that you can tell if a particular skill effect comes from the base skill or a talent (on the other hand, I didn't like how they used a dozen different words for the same exact status condition - root, ensnare, freeze, yadayadayada...)
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=4784&page=8
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=4669&page=5
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=4840
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=3646
That is probably just the tip of the iceberg. I am sure there are other threads, but yeah. Your topic has been mulled over time and time again like most of the new posts. Also there will be PVP but it is coming out sometime after the game is released so they can get the PVE right and the PVP right without having to worry about making them fit each other at the same time. This way each gets the attention they need.
Just chiming in on the statement of, "PvP being pivotal in any MMO." I have to say, not to me. I do not PvP anymore, I do not care to PvP anymore. I guess I have just out-grown the need to thump my chest and flex my muscles at others to gain some sense of self-gratification. In my opinion, Player versus Player competition and chest thumping has no place in Dungeons & Dragons - including but not limited to Neverwinter.
I cannot say for certain now, but back for as long as I have known, the PvP Communities in any PvE MMO with PvP has never been as big as the PvE/RP crowd - even in Ultima Online and EVE Online. Ever wonder why Trammel Ruleset has continued to thrive in Ultima Online, despite the outcry of the PvPers? Also, ever wonder why, in games with PvP Servers, there are always more PvE/RP servers than PvP servers? If PvP was larger than PvE, wouldn't that suggest that this would be the other way around? Yes, PVP is a niche - albeit one of the larger ones - but the nature of PvP doesn't allow for the nurturing growth of a proper Community in a Role-playing game. PvPers are generally too divided, often sticking in smaller groups, than what you find in the PvE/RP communities. This is why there are so many other PvP games out there that relate to smaller groups of PvPers, each in their own ways.
Let's face it, MMOs are centered on PvE. Even most of the content in EVE (a PvP game) is PvE orientated. If the PvP crowd was as huge as many claim it is, than why are there only a couple successful and long-standing "PvP MMOs" that continue to struggle to maintain and draw in new customers? Why is it that all the large, successful and long-standing MMOs have most of their content based for PvE? Again, even these PvP MMOs have mostly PvE content.
I'll be perfectly happy if PvP never comes to light in Neverwinter. I'll be just as happy, if it does come, so as long as it has ZERO impact on the PvE/RP aspects of the game. When PvE is tweaked/nerfed because of PvP or when I am forced into a PvP situation whilst PvE/RPing, early/current A.ion for example, is when I am an unhappy camper.
If you want PvP, why play a Role-playing game? Go play a PvP game. I cannot fathom one good reason why any Role-player would want PvP in a Role-playing game. If one is not a Role-player, then I have to say that I cannot fathom why a non-Role-player would want to play a Role-playing game and make it something it is not.
I, however, digress though - for now, for as long as any PvP in Neverwinter causes zero impact on the PvE and Role-playing nature of the game, I will be perfectly fine with there being PvP in Neverwinter.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Sorry I couldn't read OP post, but your comment catched my eye. I am not much fan of pvp centric game but pvp does have a special place in neverwinter.
Neverwinter/Faerun especially the sword coast is based on medieval european fantasy. Duels were a special part of court at that time. Apart from that arena fighters who specialise fighting in arena.
Also, I don't think they are forcing you to pvp that you need to concern yourself if you don't want too. But you will really miss out some of the fun and never know e.g. shark and minnows.
And quite frankly, I don't care, I do enjoy doing pvp sometimes, heck I played Warhammer Online for 2 years (I quit in 1.4 when they killed PvE for the sake of PvP), it's a variation to the "theme", but I would never expect to have a "special" place in this game. It seems to me that the special place in this game is for the foundry, it has to be.
Foundry has the central place, PvE is integral part and PvP has special place. Its just a matter of perspectives. However, devs have confirmed that they want to do PvP right and not as an afterthought so they will launch it later. Because of foundry, there is no way that PvE can suffer because of PvP - that is quite obvious.
btw, just curious when you started reading the forum post first, did you also gave up after reading till pvp? I read uptill pvp and then scrolled for more and then wall of text happened... omg! I can't read this!
Well, maybe that's what the devs said they wanted, but my impression is that it will be afterthought for a simple reason: the game is releasing without it. If PvP was to be more than an afterthought, in their place, I would have delayed release to make sure PvP was in at launch. One thing is what you say, another is what you actually do.
As for the rest of the first post, I haven't completely read it all, only glimpses here and there, my "hunch" is that the OP has a bunch of unrealistic expectations and may end up being disappointed, hoewever, I refrained from saying that, exactly because I didn't read everything carefully. Well, that is, until you actually quoted me, so it's your fault! ;P
PVP will never be a central theme in any D&D online game. PvE is where the money is. Its where the demand is. They have committed to limited pvp adaptation in the future, period. You will get multiple pvp designated areas to blow some steam off. Im expecting a few more features than DDOs pvp arena battles... but thats about it.
Those that care much more for pvp than pve should just start looking for another game now, because you will be most unhappy with Neverwinter.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
That's exactly what I was thinking, I agree 100%.
I agree that PvE is central, but I also have an opinion that pvp would have something in it to differentiate from games like DDO or CO. If I were to wish, it would be combination of roleplay/PvP and duels by throwing gloves/gauntlets. But we will have to wait and see.
PvP friendly is one thing, pvp centric is an entirely different ball of wax.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
I doubt there will be many differences in pvp vs. DDO, to be honest. I wouldnt mind more (even many more) pvp features, so that those who wish to pvp can have fun doing so. I would be down for the types of PvP you suggest.
But I believe it needs to stop a few inches before it starts to offset PvE balance. I also believe it should be corded off so that you dont have pvpers hounding the large majority of the playerbase who will be questing in party or trying to run solo.
UI settings that permanently turn off PvP requests could also be an effective way to keep the pvp crowd out of sight/mind of the PvE crowd.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
keeping in mind that pvp will be released later, I would believe that areas in initial release before pvp will remain free of pvp for those who wish not to even after its introduction. If I have to make an educated guess - consensual pvp, or pvp specific arena is what will be there in game.
I want to see Cryptic make the game they want to make, not some lame DDO rehash. All the footage and interviews I've seen so far suggests that Cryptic has a vision for the game they want. I'll go with that.
Dont expect neverwinter to have a better interpretation of D&D rules than DDO, because it wont. I actually like the way DDO did it. But yea u are also right in some points, after playing arround 1 year i can say DDO wasnt one of the best MMO's ive played lol.
I liked the videos and interviews with neverwinter devs and i rly think the game is in the right path, BUT im also very concerned about other aspects of the game... well because we still dont know nothing about other game features
For now what we know about Neverwinter is more then enough to keep me VERY INTRESTED about the game, combat system seems good to me and theres also foundry and free to play aspects.
But im still concern....
I'm glad to see how passionate everyone is about Neverwinter
@Effreet in game
Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct. Learn them, Love them
Better, for me at least since 'better' is subjective, would be the interpretation that makes the game play more fun, not what adheres to the core rules just because it's in the rules. If it doesn't fit the feel and play of the game then adapt it to the style of the game. We've been doing that with PnP D&D since 1978 why not in our video games.
I'm always skeptical, especially with how marketing hype can create unrealistic expectations in gaming crowd, and I also knee-jerked when I saw so much reference to DDO. It's just that I don't think that should be a reference to how this game is created.
By better i mean a close interpretation to pnp D&D rules and that is simly the truth. So far we know Neverwinter wont have AC, Saves, attack bonus, etc..., etc.... for this simple fact i can say DDO have a closer interpretation of pnp rules than Neverwinter. If u keep removing from neverwinter rules that are the core of the game like skills, feats, speed, vison and stuff like that, than for me its not a D&D game no matter if is good or not, its just a game with D&D theme
If its the right choice for a best game play ?? i rly cant say if it is or not guess i will have to wait and see.
Both games are based on two entirely different D&D rule sets. I'm still learning about 4e rules that Neverwinter will be based on.
Also, DDO originally was a Pay MMO transitioned to "Free to Play" (really "Fremium") while this starts as a completely Free to play Game (including not having to pay for content modules unlike DDO which makes you pay for adventures or "lease" them by continuing to have a subscription.) As to PvP/PvE, we'll have to wait to see both the actual PvE gameplay (in 2012) and the later release of PvP (in 2013.) Thanks everybody for such an interesting dialouge on this topic, and I fully agree with melanderi on this is a great discussion! Speaking of:
While we understand you might be... limited in what you can discuss, what is your take on the whole PvP and PvE stance melanderi?
Devs claim that Neverwinter isn't "based" on 4E or any specific edition. 4E does have things like "saves" (defenses) and AC you know, this game doesn't. Although it seems to draw heavily on 4E for lore and flavor of abilities.
Basically, to sum up.
UI- make it easy to use, make the map clear with points of interest, make tooltips explain fully what the ability does so I don't have to go to some wiki to figure out what it does, and make the UI customizable (this is a real concern, playing GW2 right now and your hotkeys don't show up, and you can't change the UI at all)
Story- follow the lore, make characters deep, make the world feel realistic, remember this is Toril (please don't make this generic hack and slash game number 15 with D&D monsters thrown in there).
Abilities- D&D has a lot of classes and spells and abilities, we want to see that variety and we want to see them be useful- in pnp, a wizard can be viable to specialize in buffs and debuffs (stoneskin, haste, gust of wind), damage (fireball, cone of cold), misdirection (illusions), pet builds, etc.... In MMORPGs we're very used to seeing 'a frost mage will cast frost bolt 5x, then frost lance when you get a proc that makes it auto crit, then repeat frost bolts, etc....', that isn't DnD (and one of the reasons I brought up DDO was that there are countless builds focusing on all types of things that are viable at all levels- and have numerous, different spells)
Variety and monsters- there's a huge selection of monsters, and some are not only unique but intelligent. A red dragon won't just sit there breathing fire on us over and over- they have spells and know complex tactics.
While Neverwinter isn't strictly 4E... this isn't 4E. 4E Wizards have their cool utility buffs, but they can't be nothing but buffbots, summoning is very limited, etc. They mostly have powers that inflict damage and apply some kind of condition in the process. Plenty of 3E ardents have complained about it but that's how it is, buffing is more of a leader (cleric) thing, and even then many of them are attacks with a 1-turn party buff tacked on. So be careful with what you call "D&D."
What we've seen so far of Neverwinter being an "action" game, I can only imagine them taking this even further. You will have your at-wills to spam damage with some limited debilitation at the very least, even if your encounter powers end up more debuffy.
Yes u are absoluty right foxybat, this is 4th edition inspired and it will use the 4th edition combat rules... daylies, utilities, encounters and at-wills, ofc they must work a bit diferent since this is an MMO. In 4th edition most of the buffs are 1-turn effect bonus to a especific player or to all party, even some healing powers only heals when u hit an enemie with a melee attack.
Some people who dont know how 4th edition work should rly take a look at it and check how diferent the game is from 3.5th edition. For example the control wizard, guardian fighter and trickster rogue are only some roles for that class, in 4th edition pnp u have those choices but u dont rly need to follow a especif role, u are free to pick whatever powers, feats, etc.... u wish. Although im not sure if we will have that freeedom in Neverwinter
For me the big deal is not about combat, i actually think they rly did a good damn job passing it from pnp to MMO (beside all the core rules they removed, ac,saves, etc...). Im more worried about what more 4th edition inspired features they will add to the game.
Personally I think this is Cheesey and too arcade'y if they are going that way, being able to resurrect yourself (its Not possible, unless some ritual performed beforehand[lichdom], or via a Wish ect) and that this is aimed at the online cash transaction x10 bundles (rustyhearts, dragonnest ect ect) while i sit on the fence about being able to rezz each other with scrolls (bar the cleric),id rather much see something carry over from Pnp for D&d flavour, Rituals? as suggested via another member?
what do the people that are going to play this game want to see implemented?
In D&D 3.5 ressurection was possible via a scroll or by being cast by a cleric with the appropriate level of spell access. That in mind I have no issue with oplayers being able to ressurect other players but self ressurection seems a bit off. But then again that all goes into how much autheticity for the rules are ppl really going to care about in the end? Folks on here talk about the PNP rules for D&D but honestly if there was an mmo that strictly utilized those rules few people would play it.
To go back to something mentioned earlier in this thread dealing with PVP. I not an avid PVPer myself but to me it has its place and D&D is one definitely one of those places. WHy you might ask? because of alignments....yes alignments when the definitive line of good and evil are tagged on your characters you have to expect certain people to not get along and get into fights. For example lets say player A decides he is going to be a worshiper of Bane while player B decides to become a paladin of Helm. DO you honestly believe that these two folks can waltz into the same market and go about their day without comming to blows? This of course is all speculatory of how much roleplay the players actually plan to be doing but I mean if you going to use world setting authenticity as basis to create or ask for gameplay mechanics why not go the distance?
Im not saying the game cant live without it but having it makes sense as such things intricate to the world's setting. That is of course unless players can only be alignments that would get along with each other most of the time.