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Tank's defense formula - a small modification to make tanking more relevant

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  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,896 Arc User
    edited March 9
    @wilbur626

    Thanks for the rest of the videos. They pretty well match up to my experience - the 1st one usually fails due to the merchants getting killed unless I aggro ALL enemies at the start (they need more HP!) and on the next one up the hill your HP dropped to about where mine usually does; around 25%. The werewolves were done well but that swamping you experienced with the vampires very nearly had you dead despite good kiting, shield-timing & positioning.

    All in all a very similar experience to me. So I guess it comes down to what we consider acceptable. To my mind the TTK ratio has to be considered as part of the equation in any discussion about a tank's, erm, tankiness. I'm of the opinion that a Paladin shouldn't lose as much HP in something like this as a dps class - previously a pally with its lower dps would still not be in danger of dying but would just take longer to clear the area. Now, they take even longer to clear it and lose more HP than a similar TIL dps due to the TTK ratio. To my mind, that is a loss of balance.

    I'm also seeing similar feedback on the Paladin FB group, players in the 40-50k range being very unhappy with the situation.

    I'd also like to point out that of the 3 tank players commenting on this thread that tanks are fine - all play vanguard fighters.

    edited to remove a dumb comment :o
    Post edited by armadeonx on
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  • flyball#6248 flyball Member Posts: 158 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    > @silente07#2597 said:

    > Yeah that’s it.

    >

    > All the complaints are from players who don’t have the gear or resources or knowledge to play their characters. You know, the average player.

    >

    > Must be why so many Tanks are quitting and the Ques are getting longer.

    >

    > So keep blaming them and telling them to learn their characters and to play better.

    >

    > Because that’s helping.

    >

    >

    >


    The game provides what is needed to get gear/resources.


    The game does NOT provide a way for new/average players to understand how the combat system works.

    More to the point there is nothing to guide people to how better play their chosen role.
    I chosen a Tank...how do I strategize to be effect both in solo play and in group

    I chose a melee dps or range dps etc....


    I chose a healer....should I focus on heling or fighting when in group content?

    In random queues I see healers not healing as often as perhaps they should, tanks charging in before control dps like hunter trappers or warlock/wizards have contained mobs and thus they die quickly.

    Many people do a poor job playing their role. Perhaps because we all want to do the most damage or get the most kills

  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited March 10
    wilbur626 said:

    Made you a new video @armadeonx :



    This time im over the recommended minimum item level for Sharandar, so the need for potions is drastically reduced. Im also using other powers, as im getting used to what does what in the paladins arsenal.

    All offensive stats at about 70%, defense at 81.9% in combat. For some odd reason my paladin is a gith, and I was unable to get a guild invite on preview. Race reroll to dwarf would give me more than enough defense and a guild would increase awareness to acceptable level for dungeons.


    Still garbage. If you play a DPS you know this TTK is very bad. You are way slower than me, but still I complain. It is about fairness.
    We have the absurd situation that I am more safe if I deal more damage. Defense is not that important. A dead enemy cannot hit me. Go and test a dreadnought build with good defense paired with offense stats - what the deadnought is able to kill.
    A dreadnought is a beast tank compared to tanks, if you count in TTK, and what is dead is dead and cannot harm you.
    Can we see the same fights played with that dreadnought? :)

    What is the - advantage - to play a tank? That is the question about all. I see no advantage.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,896 Arc User
    I'd love to see a comparable video from a DPS class just to see how much HP they lose and how fast they do it.

    Drago is right that there is no advantage to playing a tank any more as they've lost their key asset/benefit (survivability)

    Having to have two full sets of gear including companions, companion gear, indomitables, artifact set, weapon enchantment etc etc is just too much to expect most players to be able to afford/farm for. Though many would LIKE to have this, it will most likely see an increase in tanks using their solo dps gear in dungeons - leading to more complaints about badly build tanks causing run fails.

    To my mind the source of the problem is that the Paladin is the only class that doesn't have a dps paragon to switch to for soloing.
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  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 905 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    I'd love to see a comparable video from a DPS class just to see how much HP they lose and how fast they do it.

    Drago is right that there is no advantage to playing a tank any more as they've lost their key asset/benefit (survivability)

    Having to have two full sets of gear including companions, companion gear, indomitables, artifact set, weapon enchantment etc etc is just too much to expect most players to be able to afford/farm for. Though many would LIKE to have this, it will most likely see an increase in tanks using their solo dps gear in dungeons - leading to more complaints about badly build tanks causing run fails.

    To my mind the source of the problem is that the Paladin is the only class that doesn't have a dps paragon to switch to for soloing.

    I tried pointing out that im using the same build for soloing as for dungeons. I have yet to see complaints
    Elite Whaleboy
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,896 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    armadeonx said:

    I'd love to see a comparable video from a DPS class just to see how much HP they lose and how fast they do it.

    Drago is right that there is no advantage to playing a tank any more as they've lost their key asset/benefit (survivability)

    Having to have two full sets of gear including companions, companion gear, indomitables, artifact set, weapon enchantment etc etc is just too much to expect most players to be able to afford/farm for. Though many would LIKE to have this, it will most likely see an increase in tanks using their solo dps gear in dungeons - leading to more complaints about badly build tanks causing run fails.

    To my mind the source of the problem is that the Paladin is the only class that doesn't have a dps paragon to switch to for soloing.

    I tried pointing out that im using the same build for soloing as for dungeons. I have yet to see complaints
    I am absolutely sure you do a great job but you're neglecting to consider the point; "too much to expect most players to be able to afford/farm for".

    For players who don't have all of the resources of a fully geared endgamer (i.e. 90%) they will be spreading their available stats too thinly due to the extra focus on DPS and will underperform in group content. It's always been the case that endgamers have the best of both worlds and the most recent changes have exacerbated this for tanks (particularly the paladin).

    Darth is right about Blessed Wanderer - putting it to where it should be would give pallys some middle ground.
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  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 905 Arc User
    @armadeonx

    I use the same setup on my 51k Fighter, my 35k Paladin and my 33k Barbarian. The only difference is that alts don’t have enchants/runestones/insignia and companion/mount bolster.
    Both alts perform very well in adventure zones and Random Qs.

    Replicating my paladin and barb builds can actually be done by farming legacy campaigns and juma bags, as you don’t need a single enchant. The only resource needed is playtime, and if you intend to gear up a toon in neverwinter you need quite a bit of it.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited March 10
    wilbur626 said:

    armadeonx said:

    I'd love to see a comparable video from a DPS class just to see how much HP they lose and how fast they do it.

    Drago is right that there is no advantage to playing a tank any more as they've lost their key asset/benefit (survivability)

    Having to have two full sets of gear including companions, companion gear, indomitables, artifact set, weapon enchantment etc etc is just too much to expect most players to be able to afford/farm for. Though many would LIKE to have this, it will most likely see an increase in tanks using their solo dps gear in dungeons - leading to more complaints about badly build tanks causing run fails.

    To my mind the source of the problem is that the Paladin is the only class that doesn't have a dps paragon to switch to for soloing.

    I tried pointing out that im using the same build for soloing as for dungeons. I have yet to see complaints
    But as DPS you are way faster? You receive less hits? You receive less damage? You have more % of your hitpoints left?
    The video would show you are way faster and more tanky.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 905 Arc User
    > @drago#3250 said:
    > But as DPS you are way faster? You receive less hits? You receive less damage? You have more % of your hitpoints left?
    > The video would show you are way faster and more tanky.

    May be my lacking comprehension of the English language, but what are you trying to say?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    > @drago#3250 said:

    > But as DPS you are way faster? You receive less hits? You receive less damage? You have more % of your hitpoints left?

    > The video would show you are way faster and more tanky.


    May be my lacking comprehension of the English language, but what are you trying to say?

    That you would do the content as DPS way easier and faster.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 905 Arc User
    Oh, I thought this was a tank discussion. My bad
    Elite Whaleboy
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    Oh, I thought this was a tank discussion. My bad

    Yes ofcourse. (??confused??)
    If a tank would be overpowered (balance comparison) there would be no reason to ask for buffs.
    If a tank is underpowered (balance comparison) ther is good reason to ask for buffs.

    To be able to ask for fairness, you have to view around what is going on at other paragons.

    Balance Balance Balance (!!!)

    It has 0 value to look at a class and mark down that it is okay, when at same time others overperform.

    Again. Many content is 0 Tank needed. Healthy game???
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User

    wilbur626 said:

    Oh, I thought this was a tank discussion. My bad

    Yes ofcourse. (??confused??)
    If a tank would be overpowered (balance comparison) there would be no reason to ask for buffs.
    If a tank is underpowered (balance comparison) ther is good reason to ask for buffs.

    To be able to ask for fairness, you have to view around what is going on at other paragons.

    Balance Balance Balance (!!!)

    It has 0 value to look at a class and mark down that it is okay, when at same time others overperform.

    Again. Many content is 0 Tank needed. Healthy game???
    So just to understand, you want for tanks to kill things as fast as DPS?
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:



    So just to understand, you want for tanks to kill things as fast as DPS?

    I think he wants that a tank has slightly more HP left as a dps, when he finishes the H, after a not too much longer time :-)
    I usually play a Barby Vanguard tank, who has a dps paragon.

    The barby blademaster dps (33k) can solo all new sharandar mHEs with no problems. She kills stuff so fast, that she effectively takes no damage, despite the fact that she only has ~45% defense and awareness.

    My barby vanguard tank paragon (33k) has +75% defense (could be more, but makes almost no difference) and ~55% awareness.
    Despite the better defense, the 30% more HP, she looses HP much faster, because the mobs tend to overwhelm her and she takes much longer to kill stuff. Dead mobs don't do damage. If you kill much slower, you need much more defense to offset that.
    Its a pain to complete the mHEs. Takes 5x times longer. Usually requires several health potions.

    As I said, Barby is not that much a problem, because I can always switch to my dps paragon to solo a region, including its mHEs and bHEs.
    But I would wish, that I could also do the same content as a tank at not too much a (relative) disadvantage (to my dps paragon)

    Currently my dps will finish a typical HE, including New Sharandar mHEs :
    - in 1 min
    - at 75% health
    - no potions

    I would expect my tank to finish the same HE:
    - in less than 3 min
    - at 90% health
    - no potions

    Current reality as a tank is:
    - every small mistake means death
    - will finish after 5 min or longer
    - will finish at 20-50% health
    - will need 1-4 potions

    Again, as a Barby I will just switch to my dps paragon to solo landscape content.
    But it would be nice to be able to do it as a tank - with not too much a disadvantage.

    As others remarked, in rtq and redq you can have very cheap gear, very low IL, and still perform excellent as a tank, PROVIDED you know the mechanics. Still, I would like some more survivability defense-wise, if I get a demo run where I have to tank demo with no healer ....


  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited March 11
    Fair enough, though I would go even further and IMO there shouldn't be 1:3 disparity. Either way the main issue is Paladins, which before the rework could use a divinity refill synergy to have burst damage, and now have... HAMSTER..

    In general I would suggest a mechanics that drains stamina and divinity (for those that have it) to generate damage, lets say some feat and encounter combination that instead of CD drains those stamina and divinity (and ofc deals damage). It will keep the or tank or damage tradeoffs but will allow better solo game-play, especially since at solo content it takes time to run from stuff to stuff which can be used to recharge.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    wilbur626 said:

    Oh, I thought this was a tank discussion. My bad

    Yes ofcourse. (??confused??)
    If a tank would be overpowered (balance comparison) there would be no reason to ask for buffs.
    If a tank is underpowered (balance comparison) ther is good reason to ask for buffs.

    To be able to ask for fairness, you have to view around what is going on at other paragons.

    Balance Balance Balance (!!!)

    It has 0 value to look at a class and mark down that it is okay, when at same time others overperform.

    Again. Many content is 0 Tank needed. Healthy game???
    So just to understand, you want for tanks to kill things as fast as DPS?
    You already got your answer. :)

    Thank you motu999
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 969 Arc User
    edited March 11
    In any morpg games forum you will find same topicks

    Class balance and also realated topicks: give more dmg to tanks pls/buff tanks.

    These x2 topic is traditional mmo stufs, which will never ends.

    The thing is that, due balancing reasons ( in any mmorpg game) there is common understanding that, tanks strengh if their abilities to reduce, block , absorb or in any other form mitigate enemies, players( in pvp) dealt dmg. But their weakness is their lesser dealt dmg..

    Dps classes strengh is dps itself, but they are vunrable to incoming dmg from enemies and players(pvp).

    When any class manage to reach point it can be on par with tank but also have decent or high dps. It's become tradition that most players start play as that class and abandon others.

    In neverwinter we had x2 classes who got in such situation.

    Tank want to do dps equal to dps classes.. Ok. So here is question, what are you willing to sacrifice for extra dmg?
    How much tanking you are willing to give away for more dmg?

    There where x2 cases in neverwinter.

    With mod 10 and revival of forggotens Templocks( legacy temptation warlock). Due extreme Area healing capacity and debuffs it where able replace actual tanks. There where cases that templocks replaced tanks in FBI dungeons when it was latest dungeon in game.

    Also there where cases with OP OP's ( overPowered Oath Paladins).

    You pick Paladin, build for tank/heal purpose, and due using healing powers which proc legacy boons:
    Healing Warmth -When healing allies, your healing spells have a chance to damage up to 5 enemies near the target for up to 4000/5000/6000 damage.

    Burning Guidance -Your healing spells have a chance to burn enemies near the target for up to 2000 Radiant damage.

    With these x2 boons alone, paladin where doing more dmg than broken warlocks with Tyranical curse + curse glitch explotation. ( 40% dmg increase when stacked). And unlike warlocks daily power, paladin where able keep it up for longer time.

    At that time it was not suprise to get in party with x4 paladins, it was status quo to have at least x2 paladin in group + cleric and you could walk through any content without need to wat happening in your pc/laptop screen.


    So I don't think devs should repeat same mistake again.


    So if you here is thing.. You want more dps. Ok. I get it. But now tell me, how much you ar willing give up tanking?
    @hypervoreian mentioned about minor HE in valenhas. I have seen and spoke with players who have dps classes and died from x2 demon/devil in He from two slaps. Sure some classes have CC, but some lack, some are more single target. some require more less stand face2face and while you stand and try cast it you die.

    So as I wrote, pick how much you are willing sacrifice for extra gains.
    Tank + similar dps as actual dps classes, thats always lead to big mess. Both in pve and in pvp.


    Here is also other solution..


    Instead asking simply give more dmg. You could ask to grant class features which may use similar mechanics as these legacy boons:
    Frozen Reflection - When you Deflect an attack you deal up to 5000/6000/7000 damage to your attacker.

    Fey Thistle - When you Deflect an attack you deal up to 3000 damage to your attacker.

    Or like Icy Wrath - Chance when taking damage to gain up to 2000 bonus damage on next attack.

    Note: in pvp effectivesness cut by 45%( at least).
    note 2: I think it would be better if such mechanic be bound to "Damage" value. So it would be more controlled and be easier to balace.


    With these, you still do tanking, but also get some extra help dps wise..
    I mean you are tank, thats mean when blocking hits you also doing extra hits.


    p.s this is my opinion thread.
    ========================================================================
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  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 905 Arc User
    @hypervoreian

    A tank can use procs and class mechanics to reach all 90% in all defensive stats just like a DPS can do it for offensive stats. You claim this is impossible and unfair when the reality is that the claim is false.

    Can you name one example of content currently in the game where you need 1 or more defensive stat at (or even close) to 90% to finish?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User

    ...

    I general agree with that you said.
    But you are making a general mistake when saying that tanks want to do same dps ad strikers (DPS).
    None tank ever said that. Sorry. None in all threads.
    we said we want more dps cause now it is abysmal low . You misunderstood that part.
    One thing is morer DPS other thing is to have DPS on par with DPS.

    Really? Also, what does it mean, when you say that tanks have 20% less dps than DPSes? :) Because this issue is brought up in every thread. The usual hypocrisy.
    As for the number of loadouts on sw I have 4, on cw 5. For OP I only need two: tank and heal. Strange, isn't it?

    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • badnickname#3262 badnickname Member Posts: 23 Arc User


    Well, I'll say the same thing again ... if one role can efficiently get almost all its stats capped (and true, it's not easy, but I haven't said the opposite either. I've said "efficient" because if a tank wants 25% of useful stats, he needs to pay several times more than a ribacage costs), EVERYONE should be able to do the same for a matter of balance and justice.

    On what items tank must spend so much ad? Both dpses and tanks aiming for max bolster in mounts, companions and so on, that's just character progression, but I don't see tanks in disadvantage here. Dps classes needs sometimes different companions for single target/trash build, some of them have two weapon sets witch enchants for specific loadouts. Playing dps is expensive.
    Now tanks doesn't needs expensive gear, becouse items from t3 hunts aren't good for them. Currently I'm playing on my pally with IC gear. I have hunt gear, but it's useless for me. Good companions are important, but tanks are not exception and other classes need them too. If we can play as a tank with only two stats almost capped and do recent content it's ok I guess? Tank should be durable, but not immortal.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited March 12
    wilbur626 said:

    @hypervoreian


    The problem is :

    Tanks refuse to build/adjust their toons to properly fit the new system due to some weird focus on maximizing defensive stats. The fact that maximizing said defensive stats is not needed in any content is for some ignored in the hunt for the magic 90%.


    The solution :

    Properly inform new and existing players that do not understand the combat ratings rework and its impact on gameplay.

    I see many tank comparing the DPS paragons ability to reach high rating % to the tanks supposed inability to do the same for defensive stats. This can only be credited to lack of understanding of the new system.

    First time I can agree with you. But full offensive stats = weak tank(enough for many content, I agree with you // If healer is good). And even go full offensive stats = way lower damage than DPS = bad balance.
    Another story is, that there will be only little endgame tanks for i.e. VOS because in this environment you will need 2nd Fulltank loadout.

    What about Blessed Wanderer:
    +20% Damage
    - All extra Threat generated
    Only solo removed
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    DPS with all 90% offensive stats = faster clears.


    Tanks with all 90% defensive stats = no difference at all.


    Is it the look of the number 90 you are after?

    What this means? The number 90 I am looking after? Dont get it.
    Am I obliged to know the local jargons of your area in order to participate in a dialogue?In a debate?
    What this derogatory behaviour means?

    You are disrespectfull againt the persons you are debating with, you are ignoring all arguments ,you have clear weakness to respond in them.
    And you end up in jargons and snarky comments.
    All the tank participants brought into the table TTK ratio,difficulty of dungeons ,CA, a lot of arguments.
    In all your threads you participate ignoring the arguments and instead trying to derail the conversations about which stats are needed and manipulated pics of you the conveniently hide your HPs when you have with consumables some high stats.

    You behave in a rude way.

    Do you think giving NPCs CA while facing you is logical?
    Do you think a tank wih 53% DR is tanky ?
    Do you think that awareness is not needed?
    Do you think high HPs are not needed?
    Do you think high shield regen is not needed?
    Do you think that Mod19/20 tank gear is appropriate?



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