Tank's defense formula - a small modification to make tanking more relevant

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  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    wilbur626 said:

    @admiralwarlord#3792


    As I stated before ; I made this as a proof of concept and for running random Qs.


    I have adjusted the setup even more after that screenshot was taken, and now comfortably tank all content (including VoS) with it.


    I simply don’t like playing Dreadnaught fighter, so having a tank build that is very effective for solo AND grouped content fits me very well.


    This setup can easily be used on both Paladin and Barbarian tank paragons, so the “need” for a paladin DPS paragon is just another product of lacking knowledge.

    I would suggest it's more 'another product of lacking item level'.

    If the game scares away any tank under 50k, you have no new blood taking over from maxed leavers - and no queues popping.

    They have to achieve full defensive capability before being able to add offensive stats, which means having all the right mounts & companions at Mythic - which means completing a lot of dungeons to have the AD for it, it's a catch 22:

    To get to a high enough TIL to focus on offense they must have lots of AD but to get the AD they must complete a lot of runs AND open world content, which now requires a very high TIL to be able to do their job.

    Net result? Non-maxed tanks ARE dropping the class or dropping the game. It is a reality and no amount of 'but I can do it with my maxed build' is going to change that reality.
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  • sagakaiyume#0847
    sagakaiyume#0847 Member Posts: 397 Arc User
    The problem here is, tanks at max potential/built correctly aren't having issues. Trying to make things easier/increasing a tank's potential means making dps obsolete as Wilbur has stated. Just like before this mod, there will be many cookie-cutter builds that everyone follows and with tank's having too much potential at end-game (or, as you've seen in general what hes using, its not even difficult to get items. With scaling down, you don't need as much as he has in the picture) many classes won't be invited for end-game content.

    As Wilbur has said several times, improving tutorials so newer players can actually understand what is going on is the right way to approach it (For fast and more effective fix). I remember people who played for years not understanding how CA worked or when mod 16 came about having to explain to a dozen or more pallies about their tab + shift mechanic (at the time I didn't even have a pally, just went on preview with a low one for 30 mins). Too many people who play this game just don't read, they place highest magnitude stuff in, says that's enough or just follows whatever random build they find online without even understanding what any of it does.
  • drago#3250
    drago#3250 Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited March 2021

    Yeah that’s it.


    All the complaints are from players who don’t have the gear or resources or knowledge to play their characters. You know, the average player.


    Must be why so many Tanks are quitting and the Ques are getting longer.


    So keep blaming them and telling them to learn their characters and to play better.


    Because that’s helping.

    Best comment. :)

    Plus: Enough 50K+ tanks left the game. Because it is not only fine when you only reach 50K+
    Play tank now is like you are a slave. I only needed a TIC run to realize the new paradigm.
    Compared to DPS I lost 4 times damage, while have more incoming damage = stress. Only comparison mathematics matters.
    What I have done was immediately installing other MMO.
    If paladin would have DPS paragon I might still play NW. But playing a tank in NW 2021/03. Everyone claim tanks are in a good shape - I would suggest play one yourself. :)
  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    > @armadeonx said:
    > I would suggest it's more 'another product of lacking item level'.
    >
    > If the game scares away any tank under 50k, you have no new blood taking over from maxed leavers - and no queues popping.
    >
    > They have to achieve full defensive capability before being able to add offensive stats, which means having all the right mounts & companions at Mythic - which means completing a lot of dungeons to have the AD for it, it's a catch 22:
    >
    > To get to a high enough TIL to focus on offense they must have lots of AD but to get the AD they must complete a lot of runs AND open world content, which now requires a very high TIL to be able to do their job.
    >
    > Net result? Non-maxed tanks ARE dropping the class or dropping the game. It is a reality and no amount of 'but I can do it with my maxed build' is going to change that reality.

    I do not understand your focus on item level.
    During preview testing (after defense changes), I tanked TOMM using my budget build with a sub-optimal group and didn’t die once.
    My budget build has 32% mount bolster and 37% companion bolster.

    The group was made up of players that copied live characters to preview to prove that content could be completed without investing hundreds of millions to max out toons AND that the new defense formula is fine.

    The one thing all players in the group had, was knowledge and experience.

    If the new and average players keep getting told that they need to be 50k to function, the game should do a better job at informing them that this is false.
    The catch-22 that you describe is based on inaccurate information, and spreading rumors of its existence should be stopped.

    This is my suggestion to improve tank players QOL:

    New and average tank players need access to information telling them exactly what stats, powers and effects does.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    @armadeonx

    If you think that the Combat Ratings Rework can be summed up by stating that Tank DR was nerfed from 90% to 53% and -20% HP, you need to do more research.

    Elite Whaleboy
  • drago#3250
    drago#3250 Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    1M(HP)-1M(Incoming Damage)*0.1=900.000 left HP after 1 hit. Can withstand 9 hits, dead after then 10th hit.
    800K(HP)-1M(Incoming Damage)*0.47=330.000 left HP after 1 hit. Can withstand 1 hit, dead after the 2nd hit.

    Yea, it is only a minor thing. *sarcasm off*
  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    Are you trying to say that the paladin as a class needs fixing, and that the combat system change is a-ok, @vaultingfrog#2497 ?

    Both Paladin and Barbarian tanks can easily surpass Fighter tanks when it comes to stats/effective hit points. If the problem is the different class powers/mechanics, I agree that change is needed
    Elite Whaleboy
  • admiralwarlord#3792
    admiralwarlord#3792 Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    https://ibb.co/XsFbTYk

    I've scan the wrong damage, but it's still possible to see in the image the damage I wanted to show, which is that there's nothing wrong with the formula, just see how much damage mitigated or absorbed. My tank in this image is with 43% awareness and 46.3k item level, but has 922k hp. Tank's job is easy, difficult is to do quests or farm on this character, since my 2 loadout's are tank which would be 1 pve and another PVP, but I already plan to buy an extra loadout to have the dps path, because it is frustrating to do anything in this character because it takes too long and time is AD ;)
  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    Yeah soloing a minor HE in Barovia on my Pally is hilarious. I have a solo loadout where I swap companion bonuses from awareness and crit avoidance for extra power & crit severity and use a chicken instead of harper bard but it still takes a lot longer than on my (lower specced) fighter, cleric, ranger or rogue and I lose a lot more HP due to that extra time.

    I made my pally years ago when they first came out and this is the first time I've ever needed to use health potions in open world content.

    The time v reward ratio is way off now.

    @wilbur - if you want to see what I mean, go back on the preview server, put that pally back on, spec it to 40k and go try a minor HE in Barovia. Any will do.

    Edit: on the subject of the Pally, one of the points where the devs screwed us was on the defensive forte. They gave us deflect severity. Not awareness, or critical avoidance, or even deflect chance - deflect severity.

    I'm sure you're familiar with Rainers stat guide and that you'll know he says that deflect is the worst option for tanks (it also requires stats in 2 categories instead of 1). As such, Pallies effectively have NO defensive forte as they have to prioritise all their stats into the actually useful categories, but without that 10% boost that Fighters get for critical avoidance and Barbie tanks get for Awareness.
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  • drago#3250
    drago#3250 Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    Yeah soloing a minor HE in Barovia on my Pally is hilarious. I have a solo loadout where I swap companion bonuses from awareness and crit avoidance for extra power & crit severity and use a chicken instead of harper bard but it still takes a lot longer than on my (lower specced) fighter, cleric, ranger or rogue and I lose a lot more HP due to that extra time.

    I made my pally years ago when they first came out and this is the first time I've ever needed to use health potions in open world content.

    The time v reward ratio is way off now.

    @wilbur - if you want to see what I mean, go back on the preview server, put that pally back on, spec it to 40k and go try a minor HE in Barovia. Any will do.

    Edit: on the subject of the Pally, one of the points where the devs screwed us was on the defensive forte. They gave us deflect severity. Not awareness, or critical avoidance, or even deflect chance - deflect severity.

    I'm sure you're familiar with Rainers stat guide and that you'll know he says that deflect is the worst option for tanks (it also requires stats in 2 categories instead of 1). As such, Pallies effectively have NO defensive forte as they have to prioritise all their stats into the actually useful categories, but without that 10% boost that Fighters get for critical avoidance and Barbie tanks get for Awareness.

    That too. I do not understand why there are stats out, only half as effective than others.
    Stat 1 50% = Stat 2 50% & Stat 3 50%
    Random mitigated hit (deflect) is a bad choice for tank. What if you are unlucky even with 90% deflect, get 10 non deflected hits. Imagine the shitstorm in Zariel run, with your Hamster deflect.
  • silente07#2597
    silente07#2597 Member Posts: 336 Arc User
    > @wilbur626 said:
    > > @silente07#2597 said:
    > > Yeah that’s it.
    > >
    > > All the complaints are from players who don’t have the gear or resources or knowledge to play their characters. You know, the average player.
    > >
    > > Must be why so many Tanks are quitting and the Ques are getting longer.
    > >
    > > So keep blaming them and telling them to learn their characters and to play better.
    > >
    > > Because that’s helping.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    > The game provides what is needed to get gear/resources.
    >
    > The game does NOT provide a way for new/average players to understand how the combat system works.
    >
    >
    >
    >

    Too bad then for Tanks who can’t solo then with the mounts and companions the game gives.

    I guess we are just too stupid to play the same combat system mechanics that really didn’t change.

    Since 7 min TOMM runs are still a thing and folks are just private Q things all dps or 1 healer.

    You have EVERYTHING, cool story on your TOMM runs.
    Try Pugging CR with that subpar Tank as you call it.

    I am actually concerned about my players who don’t and can’t afford to wallet warrior their way through the game.

    If you can’t play content , you can’t GET the stuff.
  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    @silente07#2597

    What stuff is it that you cant get?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    I copied my paladin to preview to test minor heroics as you suggested, @armadeonx



    I didnt manage to hit exactly 40k, so I did the testing at 38953.

    I had no problems with any of the minor heroics in Barovia. Sharandar minors was a bit harder, but that is expected as I'm under the minimum item level for the zone.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    Cool, thanks for running it. I did notice you've gone for an almost exclusively dps stat allocation (mushella will hate you lol) with 59% crit/crit sev and 52% combat advantage; at 38k that's a lot of stat investment in offence and explains not having points in awareness and crit avoidance.

    With the Barovia HE, the one you put up is the least intensive (I know I said "any"...) as it has 4 small groups coming from a single direction - but they still had you at around 50% HP for most of the fight (causing you to shield and reposition a lot) and your divinity was getting low - that's the biggest issue you ran into in Sharandar, your divinity ran out and took most of your DPS capability with it, prolonging the encounter and dropping you to 20% HP several times.

    Did you try any of the harder ones in Barovia? The two in the bottom right of the map (particularly the one up the hill) or the werewolves in the mid-left (where you rescue someone). It's the ones where there are too many mobile enemies to avoid CA that really get you in trouble (scarecrows move very slowly so are easy to avoid CA).

    I saw you were running the Eladrin - a very good dps companion - was it equipped with indomitables?

    I may follow your lead for now though and build purely for dps (so mushella can lol at me more than she does currently ;) )
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  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    The goal is to have the offensive stats at 70% in combat, as my testing indicates that this is the magic number for a "DPS" companion to hit its 90% caps.

    This setup has 4 indomitable runestones, the end goal is 6.

    Stacking awareness and crit avoidance would be contra-productive for a solo/aoe loadout, but at higher item levels both can be done at the same time.

    Eladrin can easily be replaced by a companion that does far more AoE damage (Air Archon, Xuna, Black Ice Prospector)
    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    > @drago#3250 said:
    > AWFUL
    > Your potion flask literally taped to your throat. Your damage was AWFUL with nearly full DPS specc and think about you used fifth best DPS companion with indomitables. This is okay? This is AWFULLL. Sorry.
    > The damage you deal really is, I have no words. And see how much you have to kite. Really squishy tank.
    > We see you are a skilled player and are able to kite. And 70% are supposed to leave the game at this stage?
    >
    > See this video. The paladin/tank need buffs. This is awful and very bad experience. Sorry. But everyone tell something else... whatever :)
    >
    > Edit: Okay now with my laugther ended... devs - this is a tank - in need of 100% kite and drink a lot of pots. Really? If this would be my starting experience I would uninstall this game after 5 minutes.
    >
    > Thank you wilbur for the work and important showcase.

    Recommended party size for minor heroics = 3, party members in video = 1.

    Recommended minimum item level for Sharandar adventure zone = 40.000, item level on toon in video = 38.000.

    I think being at minimum ilvl and in recommended group would be less work than reworking a tank that doesn’t need rework for the reasons you give.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • drago#3250
    drago#3250 Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    > @drago#3250 said:

    > AWFUL

    > Your potion flask literally taped to your throat. Your damage was AWFUL with nearly full DPS specc and think about you used fifth best DPS companion with indomitables. This is okay? This is AWFULLL. Sorry.

    > The damage you deal really is, I have no words. And see how much you have to kite. Really squishy tank.

    > We see you are a skilled player and are able to kite. And 70% are supposed to leave the game at this stage?

    >

    > See this video. The paladin/tank need buffs. This is awful and very bad experience. Sorry. But everyone tell something else... whatever :)

    >

    > Edit: Okay now with my laugther ended... devs - this is a tank - in need of 100% kite and drink a lot of pots. Really? If this would be my starting experience I would uninstall this game after 5 minutes.

    >

    > Thank you wilbur for the work and important showcase.


    Recommended party size for minor heroics = 3, party members in video = 1.


    Recommended minimum item level for Sharandar adventure zone = 40.000, item level on toon in video = 38.000.


    I think being at minimum ilvl and in recommended group would be less work than reworking a tank that doesn’t need rework for the reasons you give.

    Okay and now back to reality. I tested myself New Sharandar with my paladin tank after 21 days of zero play.
    The reality is, that nearly everyone play solo, like it was long long time ago. I saw paladin tanks with feather stroking damage. I do not remember I saw any groups. The only part I saw groups are BHE. And One by One(!) entered fighting. Telling me all played solo.
    And yes, ofcourse all play DPS solo, why they should play healer solo. And guess what, what you have to deal with as the paladin tank. I never used so many potions. More than 10 in only 1 BHE. Now it not only provide no fun playing Paladin, you even have to pay for, to play a Paladin.
  • drago#3250
    drago#3250 Member Posts: 190 Arc User

    wilbur626 said:

    > @drago#3250 said:

    > AWFUL

    > Your potion flask literally taped to your throat. Your damage was AWFUL with nearly full DPS specc and think about you used fifth best DPS companion with indomitables. This is okay? This is AWFULLL. Sorry.

    > The damage you deal really is, I have no words. And see how much you have to kite. Really squishy tank.

    > We see you are a skilled player and are able to kite. And 70% are supposed to leave the game at this stage?

    >

    > See this video. The paladin/tank need buffs. This is awful and very bad experience. Sorry. But everyone tell something else... whatever :)

    >

    > Edit: Okay now with my laugther ended... devs - this is a tank - in need of 100% kite and drink a lot of pots. Really? If this would be my starting experience I would uninstall this game after 5 minutes.

    >

    > Thank you wilbur for the work and important showcase.


    Recommended party size for minor heroics = 3, party members in video = 1.


    Recommended minimum item level for Sharandar adventure zone = 40.000, item level on toon in video = 38.000.


    I think being at minimum ilvl and in recommended group would be less work than reworking a tank that doesn’t need rework for the reasons you give.

    38K super effective chosen. New players do not have stuff from a 100M AD wallet and do not use nearly bis comp with indomitables. I never saw that.

    Okay and now back to reality. I tested myself New Sharandar with my paladin tank after 21 days of zero play.
    The reality is, that nearly everyone play solo, like it was long long time ago. I saw paladin tanks with feather stroking damage. I do not remember I saw any groups. The only part I saw groups are BHE. And One by One(!) entered fighting. Telling me all played solo.
    And yes, ofcourse all play DPS solo, why they should play healer solo. And guess what, what you have to deal with as the paladin tank. I never used so many potions. More than 10 in only 1 BHE. Now it not only provide no fun playing Paladin, you even have to pay for, to play a Paladin.
  • drago#3250
    drago#3250 Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    I have enough of this toxic environment. Are there any tanks call for DPS damage nerf to be more in line to tank damage, that they have more fun? No!! They nerfed tanks because there were enough DPS honks "ehhhhhh, that is tank, tank deal no damage".
    I saw LFM DPS/Heal only TOMM run!!!! I saw DPS run ahead in dungeons like it was before but now deal insane amount of damage compared to tank. I feel totally useless. Do you all take drugs not see the problems?
    You guys deserve the tank shortage. There could be no better lesson. Your fight look interesting Wilbur. But if you really think this is okay, there is no point of discussion. We are tooo far away from each others point of view.
    Again.
    In this toxic environment, if you guys think it is okay someone has this "enjoyment" wilbur has shown in the youtube video:

    You guys deserve the tank shortage. Im out of this discussion, take the blue pill and enjoy the DPS game.
  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    Yeah, absolutely nobody teams up for minor HE's unless it's by chance or if you're there with a friend - you have to be prepared to solo them every time and dps classes have absolutely no incentive to team up as they don't need to.

    I also noticed the use of health potions - this is something that only became a necessity with this update. If a tank is having to take more potions than a dps in open world content then it absolutely means the balance is wrong. Remember, the lower dps is supposed to be offset by increased survivability.

    If that's no longer the case then where is the incentive to play?

    @wilbur626 did you try the other HE's I suggested? I'd be interested to see how you do in those.

    It's also worth mentioning at this stage that if a Pally has to orient all stats into dps to complete solo content (until they get far enough to be able to afford two different setups), it will increase complaints from others that tanks are not built for tanking when they go into dungeons.

    It's amusing that this point was proved by someone trying to show there isn't an issue!

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  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    Elite Whaleboy
  • sagakaiyume#0847
    sagakaiyume#0847 Member Posts: 397 Arc User
    I find if funny people complaining about Wilbur kiting, when in other threads dps are complaining they now have to kite or be one shotted xD Dps are being told to pull as small a group as possible, with 50k+ IL. Continue on, its amusing. Wilbur, who also doesn't play pally regularly, went and played on preview just to show it can be done. He kept getting cc'ed as he's not as use to pally, can't tell his build but can at least see he didn't use his AoE CC or ranged smite. Didn't see baneful strikes proc, and not using shift/at will combo. You can see hes not use to the class.

    Small side note, he was getting healed for 220k from a health potion, could easily raise that a boatload with boons to cut-down the need for potions.
  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    @armadeonx

    I didn’t find any minor heroics I could not solo in Barovia. I didn’t have to use a single health potion in any of them either.

    Using health potions when soloing content meant for 3 players in the latest zone is to be expected, isn’t it?

    Maybe the problem is the heroics themselves?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    @armadeonx


    I didn’t find any minor heroics I could not solo in Barovia. I didn’t have to use a single health potion in any of them either.


    Using health potions when soloing content meant for 3 players in the latest zone is to be expected, isn’t it?


    Maybe the problem is the heroics themselves?

    It could be the HE's are specced too high - certainly for Paladins, although my DC, Ranger and Rogue do not have a problem with them.

    I'm curious as to why you didn't post a video for the other HEs I mentioned. I mean, if the easiest one had you at 50% HP the others must've been more challenging (the logical assumption would be that's why you aren't posting them...?)

    My Pally is currently sitting at 43k with defence at 90% and Awareness at 56% (with 3 mythic companions that give 3.75% awareness each) and that HE at the top of the hill (lower right of map) had me down to 25% HP and I have more healing oriented mount insignia bonuses than you were running. This was due to the number of adds spawning, me not being able to kill them fast enough to prevent a large build up despite going for the ones doing the summoning - and therefore getting surrounded and not being able to kite outwards fast enough with shield raised to prevent combat advantage.

    Yes, if I'd specced more into crit severity & CA and put indomitables on my companion I could've possibly cleared them and prevented the build-up, but this raises another point:

    *which other class requires two completely different sets of gear & stats to function normally?"

    Not any of the DPS classes and my Cleric certainly doesn't. I spec for heals as that's what I run in group content but for soloing I just switch to my arbiter loadout which swaps a few companion active bonuses and that's it - I'm running around Avernus etc & soloing HE's, Mog etc wearing the Tiamat set! No indomitables or even a dps weapon enchantment.
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  • sagakaiyume#0847
    sagakaiyume#0847 Member Posts: 397 Arc User
    Actually, if we're talking optimization, most classes have 2+ builds for dps, for AoE and ST. With this combat system I can see people having another for solo that ignores CA and builds more defensively, specially with insignia bonuses. I myself have 3 tank specs and 2 dps specs on my fighter (1 spec with the feature for increased mow down, other without because of the negative effect). Other classes like ranger have completely different ST and AoE loadouts. Some people are using things like the water elemental weapon for soloing and whatever else for parties, enchants are different ect. Yes, you can get away without doing that and not optimizing, but then so does any pally tank that just decides to go defensive stats and say w/e.
  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    wilbur626 said:

    @armadeonx


    I didn’t find any minor heroics I could not solo in Barovia. I didn’t have to use a single health potion in any of them either.


    Using health potions when soloing content meant for 3 players in the latest zone is to be expected, isn’t it?


    Maybe the problem is the heroics themselves?

    It could be the HE's are specced too high - certainly for Paladins, although my DC, Ranger and Rogue do not have a problem with them.

    I'm curious as to why you didn't post a video for the other HEs I mentioned. I mean, if the easiest one had you at 50% HP the others must've been more challenging (the logical assumption would be that's why you aren't posting them...?)

    My Pally is currently sitting at 43k with defence at 90% and Awareness at 56% (with 3 mythic companions that give 3.75% awareness each) and that HE at the top of the hill (lower right of map) had me down to 25% HP and I have more healing oriented mount insignia bonuses than you were running. This was due to the number of adds spawning, me not being able to kill them fast enough to prevent a large build up despite going for the ones doing the summoning - and therefore getting surrounded and not being able to kite outwards fast enough with shield raised to prevent combat advantage.

    Yes, if I'd specced more into crit severity & CA and put indomitables on my companion I could've possibly cleared them and prevented the build-up, but this raises another point:

    *which other class requires two completely different sets of gear & stats to function normally?"

    Not any of the DPS classes and my Cleric certainly doesn't. I spec for heals as that's what I run in group content but for soloing I just switch to my arbiter loadout which swaps a few companion active bonuses and that's it - I'm running around Avernus etc & soloing HE's, Mog etc wearing the Tiamat set! No indomitables or even a dps weapon enchantment.
    As requested :



    Please note that @sagakaiyume#0847 is 100% correct when stating that I dont play paladin regularly. Someone maining a paladin would know much more than me about the class, its mechanincs and what skills to use when.

    The loadout im using on my Paladin and Barbarian alt tanks are based on my Fighter Dungeon loadout. I have 2 different loadouts; on for solo/dungeons and one for trials.



    This is the loadout I use for solo/dungeons.



    This is my trial loadout.

    As you can see, the stat distribution is adjusted to the actual need. Running the trial loadout in dungeons and in adventure zones would be gimping myself and I would quit due to boredom. Therefore I adjust my toon using the loadout system introduced a few mods back.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • lantern22
    lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    I am pretty much smashing all solo content with my fighter which is primarily a tank build. Maybe got a few too many empowered runestones and then swap a few companion bonuses and two pieces of equipment but that's about it. Not sure about Pally tho