This is my experience in random Q`s. Note that I usually do not run my main through random queues. I generally use alts with account-bound gear, epic companions and mounts. IL is typically around 33-35k. dps stats (power, accuracy, crit chance, crit severity, CA) are typically between 45-50%. There are better and also far worse tanks running RQ's, so I would assume that I am"typical". Comparing my (not great) damage output to the damage output of the dps usually puts me into the 20% range. Very rarely it is 50%, but then the dps struggle. I never struggle to hold aggro, and unless there is a very bad healer I do not die. Might use a potion once in a while to help out the healer.
Sorry, but I hope it's clear why I don't think this is a valid indicator for this argument.
If to get back to the topic of the thread, though it is an interesting idea, and perhaps it is what needed, I don't think that changing the defense stat is the solution or the problem.
I would say that tanks have two issues, one is slower solo slugging, and I disagree that it should be about 3 times slower. I think it should be almost on par (lets say 75%) but the build / loadout / slotted powers or whatever should be at the cost of tankiness. You can have the DPS but not the tankiness, or can have the tnakiness but not the DPS.
And second thing, is indeed some misconception about stats, and what's more useful, but that is probably temporary until people adjust to the new system.
> @motu999#9953 said: > Just to be clear about the matter, so that others can understand what happened: > > You changed the definition of DR with a rather obscure reference to "trials" (btw, not all mobs in trials are bosses, so "DR" is not always increased by awareness in trials) from the way it has been openly used in this thread since post one. I defined DR in my original post as the general DR, that works against *all* types of damage, and is determined from the defense stat. > > Using your modified "non-standard" changed version of DR, you then claimed that my statement about DR was "100% incorrect" > > The fact of the matter is, that you - in contrast to myself - you never explicitly stated your personal "non-standard" definition of DR, when you made your false accusation. > > The fact also is, that my statement remains 100% correct. It is based on a clearly stated definition of DR, which is compatible with standard D&D usage of the term. Also, my usage of the term DR was explicitly stated in the first post of this thread. > > The reason is, that this thread was originally designed - before you came around - to be narrowly focused on the implications of the change of the DR formula, that determines DR from the defense stat. You - for whatever reason - chose to dilute the focus by discussing a lot of other stuff. That can happen in such discussions. I don't really think its productive, but who am I to tell others how to discuss things.
I cap defense at 90%. This results in a total of 53% damage resistance. I equip an item that gives me +3% damage resistance. Do the 3% damage resistance disappear because it doesn’t fit what you define as the definition of Damage Resistance, or is it included in total damage reduction/resistance calculation?
A boss has combat advantage while attacking me 100% of the time (I won’t make this example hard to understand by specifying that this is in a trial, but it has CA 100% of the time), it deals more damage to me. This damage can be resisted with awareness. Why do you want to treat the damage resisted by this resistance in any other way than other damage resisted?
Would it be better to operate with one value called Damage Resistance and one value called Resisted Damage, or sum it up ?
I think it is easier for others not as gifted as yourself to understand that incoming damage is reduced by X based on ALL your defensive stats ;
53% from defense. Reduction from other defensive stats relevant to situation. Items with equip bonuses stating you take less damage Armor enchants that give you an increase to resistances. Player powers that reduces damage taken.
If you want to nitpick and claim that resisted damage is not the same as resisted damage, feel free to do so.
Elite Whaleboy
1
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
edited March 2021
There is nothing obscure in the damage formula, is pretty clear how it works.
Enemies have 90% CA damage. CA damage applied when enemies have CA. Bosses have 100% CA uptime Bosses do 90% more dmg.
It doesnt matter how you call that damage. ITS DAMAGE. And is reduced by awareness or by damage resistance after that.
So awareness = dmg resistance vs bosses.
If the bosses had 100% crit, crit avoidance would be like awareness (more crit avoidance = more dmg reduction) but since enemies crit 50% of the time, crit avoidance is less valuable.
We dont need a master in maths to understand this, there is a condition that applies 100% of the time.
@arkhadiam#2543 > 2) If EVERYTHING is invested in awareness, the barbarians (for the forte) and the fighters (for the "RB", I don't know which key would be equivalent on PC), they could have approx 80% continuously. Paladins only reach high levels with their daily. > > 3) As I said, there is an CA damage multiplier factor that I don't know how to calculate. but by the name that it has, it is based on the time in which it is fighting with CA. And this is related to what I said in a previous post, about "the need for DPS to have almost everything capped to be effective". It is not because they are useless with no caps (imagine 4 stats at 80%, for example), its because if they do not have damage to kill a boss quickly, the tank dies. Here would be the cause. > > Therefore, to claim that with Def and Awar capped you are going through the game with 78% damage reduction, is simply lying. First, because it does not mitigate that, and second, because u cant go permanently with 90% awareness. >
I think it’s safe to assume that a fighter or paladin both can reach 72% awareness. In a feral raptor party you gain 15% awareness. This will take you to 87% awareness. If you rattle your chain of scales, you will end up at 90% awareness permanently.
If to get back to the topic of the thread, though it is an interesting idea, and perhaps it is what needed, I don't think that changing the defense stat is the solution or the problem.
I tend to agree that there might be better ways to address the major problems.
I would say that tanks have two issues, one is slower solo slugging, and I disagree that it should be about 3 times slower. I think it should be almost on par (lets say 75%) but the build / loadout / slotted powers or whatever should be at the cost of tankiness. You can have the DPS but not the tankiness, or can have the tnakiness but not the DPS.
Agree. But currently many tanks reported, and this lines up with my own experience, that the damage output of a typical (non-bis) tank is likely 20-30% of a dps. 75% (when focusing on dps stats) seems fine to me and a desirable goalpoint, but we are currently far away from that.
Note that a new player generally has almost no options to shuffle defense stats to offense stats or vice versa. Enchantments currently have negligible effect in reshuffling stats (+2.8% for a single stat with an r15, by reducing all other 14 stats by the same total, e.g. -0.2% for every one of the 14 other stats). Leaves only a large selection of companions or mounts, but new players usually don't have that (and their comps and mounts are at best epic).
And second thing, is indeed some misconception about stats, and what's more useful, but that is probably temporary until people adjust to the new system.
True. Still I think the most useful stat to focus on first, for a new tank, is defense, because it applies to all types of damage. Awareness is situational (also, in landscape you can often nullify CA by positioning) and deflect actually requires two stats to focus on (chance and severity), so effectively double the cost for the same effect. Also, deflect does not help against big attacks that can one-shot the tank. If you fail to deflect (and there is always a non-zero chance), you take all the damage.
Agree. But currently many tanks reported, and this lines up with my own experience, that the damage output of a typical (non-bis) tank is likely 20-30% of a dps. 75% (when focusing on dps stats) seems fine to me and a desirable goalpoint, but we are currently far away from that.
Note that a new player generally has almost no options to shuffle defense stats to offense stats or vice versa. Enchantments currently have negligible effect in reshuffling stats (+2.8% for a single stat with an r15, by reducing all other 14 stats by the same total, e.g. -0.2% for every one of the 14 other stats). Leaves only a large selection of companions or mounts, but new players usually don't have that (and their comps and mounts are at best epic).
My problem with that measurement is that it comes from group content, where the tanks job to tank, not dps. I want to believe that the harder the content the more a tank needs to shift the skills, feats, and the rest of the build to tanking. If not, then it's a content problem.
So applying tanking oriented data, to make a solo (dps oriented) context, IMO is inherently skewed. While due to lack of time my personal experience is lagging behind, but when I'm playing on Paladin solo I'll swap stuff around to deal more damage at the cost of tankiness (different setup than group content).
About new players - I think those are actually the least of the issue. New players rely more on immediate short term gear. What currently drops in the quest line, what immediately drops from the quest line, dungeons, the low tear hunts or whatever. For GF/Barbie, it will be a matter of just swapping paragon and slay things, there is much less specialized long term investment. This is not the case of someone investing millions and millions and months and months and now feel they need to swap to 0.
In this case Paladin is an issue, and hence why there were suggestions to solve it, but not with stats, Pitshade suggested to increase the feat of "When not in party get damage", which is simple and will work. I've suggested a more general idea of some feat or mechanic that will deplete stamina and divinity for added damage.
IMO, stats are not the only cog, and there are perhaps better cogs to solve these issues.
For not so new players who have issues in the zones they get into, the solution above will also work long term, since it will be a natural evolvement of the classes. Utilizing loadouts, paragons, or whatever the game offers. And I must add that the basics (2 loadouts) are for free and on purpose for players to use. Personally I wish that class had at least 2 roles, and it was so from the start. But while I do think a lot of the issue is lack of adjustment, IMO if there are ideas that can solve stuff, but maintain the tradeoffs of tankiness vs dealing damage then why not. But for the sake of the game as a whole, good balance is about tradeoffs, and not FOTM when people swap to the OP class every balance pass.
Regarding the mitigating effect of awareness, wilbur is right, provided your enemy actually has combat advantage and the devs did not change the MOD 16 formulas. Bosses always tend to have CA at 100% uptime, regardless of positioning. In landscape and against non-bosses you can often nullify CA through positioning and awareness is less useful.
If a boss has 90% CA, this will increase his damage output by a factor of x = 1+0.9 = 1.9. Assuming a base-damage of 1, CA would result in a total effective damage of 1.9. If you have 90% awareness, and awareness is subtracted from CA being a counter-stat, the damage will be the base-damage of 1 again. This means, the total effective damage of the boss (1.9) will be reduced by a factor of 1.9 to 1, provided awareness is 90% The reduction factor is 1/1.9 = 0.53, e.g. you take 53% of the damage you would take if you had 0% awareness. This damage will be further reduced by defense, by multiplication with another factor of 0.53. So yes, in a boss fight awareness has the same effectiveness to reduce damage than defense.
0.53 * 0.53 = 0.28
This means, for a boss fight you should ideally have 90% awareness and 90% defense. If you cannot obtain 90% in both, you should attempt to have equal values of awareness and defense. These are the most important defensive stats to focus on first (at least for boss fights). Deflect requires two stats (chance and severity), does not help against one-shots, and therefore should be the last defensive stats to focus on.
EDIT: a different question is, how the damage multiplier by a factor of 0.28 at 90/90 defense/awareness compares to a typical dps with 50/50 defense/awareness.
At 50/50 the damage multiplier is 1/(1.5*1.5) = 0.44
0.44/0.28 = 1,57
This means a tank at 90/90 defense/awareness is 57% better in his damage soaking capability (due to defense/awareness vs bosses) than the typical dps at 50/50. Versus non-bosses its less than that. 57% better is significant, but the difference is not really that great. For a typical non-bis tank with 70/70 we get (1.7*1.7)/(1.5*1.5) =1,28, e.g. 28% better... Yeah, I very well know that damage soaking capability is not the only relevant feature of a tank. But 28% is pretty meh.
Post edited by motu999#9953 on
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
1) One is class mechanic, the others are 5%, all are additive.
2) It is you who misunderstand the point, you fight to gain something useless, that is only good for the sake of appearances, while ignoring things that can actually benefit the class. This is one sure way to end up with a hamster class.
Lets be the most clear about this. I've played end-game on all 3 roles, and I couldn't care less of how many of my stats are capped and what roles caps what. The question is how effective a class can be in the role.
3) You contradict yourself, you state that you are happy that DPS will have all stats capped and additional encounters that give more damage and so on, but at the same time you are not happy that some roles, in your perception have something that you do not. And to be clear tanks mitigation is not defined by the number of stats they caped. Would this end if DPS could cap only 3 stats? I say lets go for that option. Lets make it equal.
4) I wonder is this a hypothetical argument? Did you play end-game, and the stat balance is actually something you encountered? The question about CA uptime combined with the DPS checks falicy is not something a player who is capping stats should stop on. Do you have actual issue tanking that can be solved with the stat caps?
5) The stat system is built around players not reaching the caps. Yet if anyone just look at the stat graphs it is clear that not capping the stats has nothing to do with any alleged imbalance between the roles.
--
I think I should clarify (4), by how much you think you will be more tanky from the maximum now, to some perceived maximum you ask for? How much is this actually?
What's the overall efficiency of a player if the throw the same total amount of stats (the total is always the same due to how IL works) into those 4 stats you want vs the more spread around variant?
EDIT: a different question is, how the damage multiplier by a factor of 0.28 at 90/90 defense/awareness compares to a typical dps with 50/50 defense/awareness.
At 50/50 the damage multiplier is 1/(1.5*1.5) = 0.44
0.44/0.28 = 1,57
This means a tank at 90/90 defense/awareness is 57% better in his damage soaking capability (due to defense/awareness vs bosses) than the typical dps at 50/50. Versus non-bosses its less than that. 57% better is significant, but the difference is not really that great. For a typical non-bis tank with 70/70 we get (1.7*1.7)/(1.5*1.5) =1,28, e.g. 28% better... Yeah, I very well know that damage soaking capability is not the only relevant feature of a tank. But 28% is pretty meh.
But the thing is that that's not the only difference between a tank and a DPS...
Just for some numbers, if we look at popular builds (yes towards end-game) not in combat, a tank is about 3 times tankier than DPS. In combat when stuff procs and group bonuses apply this becomes higher (Significantly), and can go into, well I won't say or people will cry that I want to get tanks nerfed. But the tools are available, calculators are there, and builds are public.
My point is that we can't just reduce the difference to per stat and say "20%" here or there is low. All those 20%'s together do add up.
Still if there is an issue, perhaps gameplay oriented change is more proper, for example stamina. A game should encourage playing and not walking around and be a dummy that takes damage, which if to be honest exactly what were tanks a couple of mods ago.
So if I understand correctly, the crux of the point is that you want to cap 4 stats because the other 2 roles can do it. In essence, to my understanding of system mechanics, you are willing to get less optimal build just for the principal of "if they can, I must too"? Lets trade then, absolution gives 20% multiplicative mitigation. So I get on DPS a multiplicative damage buff of 20% with 8/20 uptime and you can have those 4 90% cap stats...
----
Those 90% caps are gear issue, that's a whole different problem, but more importantly, there is extreme dichotomy in the arguments.
Thread topic: Defense has issue: Capping Defense yields very little gain, it doesn't worth to cap. Few pages later- argument: I must cap all the stats, including said defense.
Even without going into if the stat should be as is or not, or any other thing, see the issue here?
You have not understood well, just you have wanted to understand what have interested you. Basically, because you have only focused on my point 2), completely ignoring the first one.
In fact, u make a wrong assumption: why would my build be less optimal at capping more stats?
Then, I don't understand ur next idea for two reasons:
1) If I have an enchounter that temporarily gives me 20% damage reduction, can I no longer reach the caps in my stats like the rest of the roles?
2) You are exposing the situation as if the DPS did not have skills that enhance the damage. I do not play any DPS, but doing a little review, look what I find in the barbarian:
- Ralentless slash: Added Effect: Increase damage dealt by 5% for 12 secs - Raging Strikes: Rage increases the damage your attacks deal, up to a maximum of 5%. - Overpenetration: If your Power Rating and Accuracy Ratings are capped, deal 5% more damage. - Adamantine Strike: Added Effect: Increases targets damage taken by 5%. - Battlerage: Added Effect: Increases damage dealt by 20%.
Don't try to convince me with a false dichotomy, because, as I have been able to show you, DPS already have their own skill kit that increases their damage (even more than the 20% damage reduction that I have with absolution), and they have their stats capped.
---------------
Indeed, that the tanks cannot reach the caps is a problem with the items, but it is not "a completely different problem" ... it is a main problem, and it is one of the main reasons for the imbalance between roles.
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And in general, I do not see incongruity between what I say with the idea that the creator of the thread has wanted to show.
Indeed, the scaling of defense as the % increases has taken a significant nerf with the rework ... and the sad thing is that (removing the items that give % damage reduction), it is still our best source to mitigate damage. The one who created the post suggests that scaling be improved, so that the damage reduction granted by the defense, overall, is greater.
And, in essence, we both ask the same thing (improve the dmg mitigation): he asks for it by means of a buff in the damage reduction that the defense gives, and I ask for it with the possibility that I can reach (or almost reach) the caps as DPS do with its stats.
P.S; and to your question somewhat .... insightful, I have no problem answering. If they give me the possibility of having 4 stats at 90% in a maintained and stable way as DPS can have, in exchange for DPS having a damage multiplier of + 20% ... I DO NOT DOUBT IT. As a tank, I am the first interested that my DPS deals damage and my healer does great healings ... The strange thing is the behavior around here, where some roles seem to enjoy with the suffering and the handicap of the others ... BUT, as I have already explained, it would not be the case because the DPS already "self-boosting" damage with skill ... even more than a pally auto-boosts its damage reduction.
Tank also has many self buffs that improve what the class is proposed to do, such as skills that give more aggro,stamina (only the shield is already a self buff) and damage resistence. I don't think they should divert the focus including dps formulas around here. The Dev was clear, DPS gains 20% bonus damage and Tank earns 20% HP bonus which in his mind are equivalent and I agree with that thought.
“ Also, wilbur of course has a point, that there are many sources that effectively reduce our damage taken. Most of these, however, are situational. Most of them require a rather good knowledge of the game, that new players do not tend to possess. My focus was on the damage reduction that works for all types of damage. The major source of DR (for all damage taken) comes from defense. For this reason I attempted to focus the discussion on the changes to the DR formula (for all types of damage) calculated from defense.
It is obvious, that players with a lot of knowledge of their class and the mechanics, such as wilbur, will not have that great difficulties to cope with the changes. Therefore I tend to ignore them, in particular when the argument goes: "I (great player) can handle all content, so everything is fine."”
This is exactly why I keep saying that ingame documentation would help eliminate the lack of knowledge leading to a lot of misunderstandings and conclusions made from assumptions based on lack of accessible information.
For some weird reason a lot of forum posters think that I am attacking new and inexperienced players when I ask for proper ingame explanations of basic game mechanics.
Elite Whaleboy
3
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
1) I wrote you the factor. It is also visible in any boss fight, the circle under your legs.
2) The idea is still false, usually the tank will stand while the rest die. This was especially more pronounced the more gap there is in mitigation. Everyone die to large scale mechanics while the tank keeps dawdle around and doesn't even care. Move from cannons in Zariel? Neh.. Move from storm in ToMM? Neh.. C2G/G2C? Just soak it.
3) And in how many cases the issue was DPS that do not pay attention to CA? Or timings? Or Healers who do not manage Divinity? How do you think that one player had 800dps on a class while another had 400 on the same class with similar gear? How is that one group can do a dungeon with minimal IL, while others stuck there for hours? because they are flagged by the devs with immortality? Every new dungeon people call of a nerf because it takes too long to complete or they can't, then somehow by some magic after a couple of weeks everyone can complete it, after a month it's already boring because everyone completed it. Every rework, mod6 the sky was falling, "no one can complete a dungeon" (lets put aside the ArP bug), then first day everything was completed by at least a group, first week more completed.. and so on.. Same with every rework. Yes, a lot of things are unbalanced, buggy and plain broken, but that doesn't make every complaint or shout for "Buff me" a valid one. And worse not all "buff me" actually solve any issues.
4) You brought the example of a gear item from previous mod used due to it's bonus. So I'm not following why one thing is "Here an example of how tanks have it bad they need to use something old for the equip bonus" but the parallel of "DPS use old set for the equip bonus" is somehow different?
This means a tank at 90/90 defense/awareness is 57% better in his damage soaking capability (due to defense/awareness vs bosses) than the typical dps at 50/50. Versus non-bosses its less than that. 57% better is significant, but the difference is not really that great. For a typical non-bis tank with 70/70 we get (1.7*1.7)/(1.5*1.5) =1,28, e.g. 28% better... Yeah, I very well know that damage soaking capability is not the only relevant feature of a tank. But 28% is pretty meh.
But the thing is that that's not the only difference between a tank and a DPS...
My point is that we can't just reduce the difference to per stat and say "20%" here or there is low. All those 20%'s together do add up.
Still if there is an issue, perhaps gameplay oriented change is more proper, for example stamina. A game should encourage playing and not walking around and be a dummy that takes damage, which if to be honest exactly what were tanks a couple of mods ago.
No complaint from me. Actually, I am beginning to think that the change of the DR formula is not that bad after all. At least it puts defense on the same footing/effectiveness as awareness (in boss fights). I also repeated many times in this thread, that I think that tanks ("old" bis tanks and "new" low IL tanks) are generally in a very good spot now in dungeons and trials. Healers might have to work a little more, but well.
The remaining issue that was identified in this thread is - low dps in solo landscape. If we could get it to 75% of a comparable dps, that would be perfect. Actually that would be a better remedy, than improving the damage mitigation capabilities. The latter would only reduce the number of potions required to complete landscape content, which is a merely a partial solution that does not address the major issue, namely that it takes currently too long to do landscape content as a tank (in comparison to dps).
For some weird reason a lot of forum posters think that I am attacking new and inexperienced players when I ask for proper ingame explanations of basic game mechanics.
I think we finally came to a tentative agreement and hopefully some of the information that was disseminated during the discussion will be useful to some readers.
I must say, I was not fully aware that awareness is now on equal footing with defense (in boss fights). I have always focused on defense first (and this was a good strategy before they changed the formula). I currently do not have any difficulties in boss fights, but I think I can help out the healer a bit more, by aiming at equal percentages for defense and awareness. I guess I have to thank you for that :-)
In landscape I rarely use my tank paragon, for obvious reasons, so whether awareness is less useful than defense is not really a relevant question. I use my dps paragon on Barby, and healer paragon for pally. They both "automatically" have comparable defense/awareness stats (around 45-50%), because the focus is on the dps stats...
1
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited March 2021
I am probably going to regret posting here, I have been avoiding the forums for roughly a year but... Here goes. In an uncharacteristic turn of events I will try to keep my post brief and to the point.
#1 The more defensive stats you have, the more hits you can tank. #2 Content is designed around a specific level of "tankyness," once you meet that level, you are able to tank the content. #3 Having stats beyond that threshold makes the content more forgiving to mistakes up to a point, at which point you can tank it without paying any attention to the game at all. If an enemy hits for 1 damage and you have 100,000 HP, it doesn't matter if you have 90% defense or 45% defense, the enemy isn't going to kill you. #4 You cannot compare the number of stats a DPS can cap to the number of stats a tank can cap, because they are balanced around different factors. #5 Tanks have aggro multipliers, DPS do not. #6 Because of #5, a DPS who builds purely defensively would not be able to replace a tank, because they can't hold aggro. #7 Tanks and healers in NW have mostly been shafted when it comes to bonuses on items. Items bonuses are usually designed for DPS. #8 Whilst DPS get a lot of bonuses, the bonuses are actually very bland and uninteresting, not altering gameplay. #9 I would prefer if the bonuses that exist on all items were entirely stripped away and Cryptic started from the ground up on bonus design, because bonuses which add 5% to a stat are dull and do not impact gameplay in a meaningful way. #10 The current formula for tanks can actually work really well and it would imo be better if tank powers were reworked to better fit into the current system design (say allowing them to go over the cap, but giving them significant amounts like +100% defense).
I surrender. You convinced me. Bring the tutorials, it will help to have more fun. I think this was the last big shout of resistance in tank community. I am downright jarred. It makes me feel giddy keep up the resistance.
In this case Paladin is an issue, and hence why there were suggestions to solve it, but not with stats, Pitshade suggested to increase the feat of "When not in party get damage", which is simple and will work. I've suggested a more general idea of some feat or mechanic that will deplete stamina and divinity for added damage.
Pitshade is referring to the class feature Blessed Wanderer and I've seen people on both sides of this debate put forward that a boost to this would significantly reduce the issues pallies are having with their dailies & weeklies. I do think that for cautions sake, it should also not work in queued for content as the last thing I would want to see is some pally using it to solo dungeons & getting it nerfed again.
That's probably the simplest fix, but as you and @thefabricant have both said, a full rework of tank powers to fit the new paradigm would be better - but I can't see when they'd manage to get that on their schedule, certainly not any time soon.
Personally I'd be content with Blessed Wanderer being set to 20%.
Edit: One mechanic worthy of immediate attention (to my mind) is divinity regen via shielding. Currently it increases based on the number of hits taken but not the strength of those hits - but divinity drain when using the tab mechanic (divine champion) is based on the strength of hits taken.
I believe the strength of hits taken should impact the amount of divinity gained as bosses hit slow but hard, meaning they can wipe your divinity with one hit but takes forever to regain it.
A means of giving players an option would be to change the feat Intimidating Presence, which is generally regarded as a 'dead feat' so instead of "Divine Champion now greatly increases threat generated but no longer automatically blocks attacks against you" - it instead allows a pally to switch to one that increases Divinity based on the strength of an incoming attack. This would be great situationally as it could work in loadouts for slow-hitting single target fights.
Post edited by armadeonx on
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
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> @motu999#9953 said: > EDIT: a different question is, how the damage multiplier by a factor of 0.28 at 90/90 defense/awareness compares to a typical dps with 50/50 defense/awareness. > > At 50/50 the damage multiplier is 1/(1.5*1.5) = 0.44 > > 0.44/0.28 = 1,57 > > This means a tank at 90/90 defense/awareness is 57% better in his damage soaking capability (due to defense/awareness vs bosses) than the typical dps at 50/50. Versus non-bosses its less than that. 57% better is significant, but the difference is not really that great. For a typical non-bis tank with 70/70 we get (1.7*1.7)/(1.5*1.5) =1,28, e.g. 28% better... Yeah, I very well know that damage soaking capability is not the only relevant feature of a tank. But 28% is pretty meh.
This comparison leaves out important factors like block, DR items and class powers/feats.
So you are playing for 2 months and know everything about game and damage formula tanks, and saying all other more veteran players that test things and have run all content are wrong. Please just listen to more experienced players you will learn something fast, or just do your things and not open your mind and say that is the game fault not yours , there are to many players like that but they never let other people to help them to be better and just play on their own world. You will reach a time when you learn game good and see this thread and will say i how wrong i was when thinking like this . People here want to help you can ask for advice and not say all players are elitist dps whales. If they bother to write here mean they want to help open people mind and to inform less informed people how game works .
So you are playing for 2 months and know everything about game and damage formula tanks, and saying all other more veteran players that test things and have run all content are wrong. Please just listen to more experienced players you will learn something fast, or just do your things and not open your mind and say that is the game fault not yours , there are to many players like that but they never let other people to help them to be better and just play on their own world. You will reach a time when you learn game good and see this thread and will say i how wrong i was when thinking like this . People here want to help you can ask for advice and not say all players are elitist dps whales. If they bother to write here mean they want to help open people mind and to inform less informed people how game works .
Yep. This is the reason why tanks are leaving the game. They come in here with their problems and all they get is HAMSTER. Is wilbur trying to help? Yes. Is he helping? No. Not at all.
How about we do it this way... If the tanks want to survive how about they only run with great healers and 3 dps who not only know the content, but hit hard enough to kill whatever comes the group's way before the tank has to take too much damage.
That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.
Yep. This is the reason why tanks are leaving the game. They come in here with their problems and all they get is HAMSTER. Is wilbur trying to help? Yes. Is he helping? No. Not at all.
How about we do it this way... If the tanks want to survive how about they only run with great healers and 3 dps who not only know the content, but hit hard enough to kill whatever comes the group's way before the tank has to take too much damage.
That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.
And you promise not to lose aggro to those dps? Because while your faction claims that dps are immortal, I dare say otherwise. . .
Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
> @maxzius#3795 said: > Yep. This is the reason why tanks are leaving the game. They come in here with their problems and all they get is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Is wilbur trying to help? Yes. Is he helping? No. Not at all. > > How about we do it this way... If the tanks want to survive how about they only run with great healers and 3 dps who not only know the content, but hit hard enough to kill whatever comes the group's way before the tank has to take too much damage. > > That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.
Unlike you, I don’t have a group to run with. I run with whoever is running the content that I want to run.
One of the problems with these “discussions” is that people like you make up stuff to make people that provide actual facts look bad.
I have been called a whale, elitist, troll, fanboy and even shareholder the last few days just for disagreeing and providing counter arguments.
I find behavior like this very weird, but I guess it is what happens when I provide information to people that want to make up stuff to fit their complaints.
I have shared multiple builds, ranging from budget builds to extreme “endgame” builds via nw-hub and YouTube, and many players have found these very helpful. I can’t claim to be a superior e-sports athlete or some kind of professor in NW, but I do make sure the information I provide is correct.
Simply asking a question in these forums instead of making wall-of-text posts based on false information would make it a lot easier to help.
Yep. This is the reason why tanks are leaving the game. They come in here with their problems and all they get is HAMSTER. Is wilbur trying to help? Yes. Is he helping? No. Not at all.
How about we do it this way... If the tanks want to survive how about they only run with great healers and 3 dps who not only know the content, but hit hard enough to kill whatever comes the group's way before the tank has to take too much damage.
That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.
And you promise not to lose aggro to those dps? Because while your faction claims that dps are immortal, I dare say otherwise. . .
Wait, what? Who ever said dps were immortal?
Also, no, I don't have a problem with aggro, although I hear most tanks in the 30-50k range do. If they're losing aggro to you then that seems to back up the claim that there's a problem with the tank formula, right?
> Yep. This is the reason why tanks are leaving the game. They come in here with their problems and all they get is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Is wilbur trying to help? Yes. Is he helping? No. Not at all.
>
> How about we do it this way... If the tanks want to survive how about they only run with great healers and 3 dps who not only know the content, but hit hard enough to kill whatever comes the group's way before the tank has to take too much damage.
>
> That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.
Unlike you, I don’t have a group to run with. I run with whoever is running the content that I want to run.
One of the problems with these “discussions” is that people like you make up stuff to make people that provide actual facts look bad.
I have been called a whale, elitist, troll, fanboy and even shareholder the last few days just for disagreeing and providing counter arguments.
I find behavior like this very weird, but I guess it is what happens when I provide information to people that want to make up stuff to fit their complaints.
I have shared multiple builds, ranging from budget builds to extreme “endgame” builds via nw-hub and YouTube, and many players have found these very helpful. I can’t claim to be a superior e-sports athlete or some kind of professor in NW, but I do make sure the information I provide is correct.
Simply asking a question in these forums instead of making wall-of-text posts based on false information would make it a lot easier to help.
People like me? I believe you have me confused with someone else. Either that or you really do just like to derail discussions.
Either way, you and I both know that if the formula stays as it is tanks are going to keep getting absolutely hammered and there will be no reason to even spec full defense as a tank because we can't.
> @maxzius#3795 said: > People like me? I believe you have me confused with someone else. Either that or you really do just like to derail discussions. > > Either way, you and I both know that if the formula stays as it is tanks are going to keep getting absolutely hammered and there will be no reason to even spec full defense as a tank because we can't.
“ That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.”
If you didn’t write that, I would report an account security breach if I were you 😂
Yep. This is the reason why tanks are leaving the game. They come in here with their problems and all they get is HAMSTER. Is wilbur trying to help? Yes. Is he helping? No. Not at all.
How about we do it this way... If the tanks want to survive how about they only run with great healers and 3 dps who not only know the content, but hit hard enough to kill whatever comes the group's way before the tank has to take too much damage.
That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.
And you promise not to lose aggro to those dps? Because while your faction claims that dps are immortal, I dare say otherwise. . .
Wait, what? Who ever said dps were immortal?
Also, no, I don't have a problem with aggro, although I hear most tanks in the 30-50k range do. If they're losing aggro to you then that seems to back up the claim that there's a problem with the tank formula, right?
No, the problem is with the tank's skills. The problem is also often a bad build. The problem is not knowing the mechanics. If you cannot do something it does not automatically mean that the formula is wrong. You always have to start from yourself.
I've seen tanks over 50k who have never been on end-game content. Because they'd rather play tank-dps, and despair that the game is broken.
Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
> People like me? I believe you have me confused with someone else. Either that or you really do just like to derail discussions.
>
> Either way, you and I both know that if the formula stays as it is tanks are going to keep getting absolutely hammered and there will be no reason to even spec full defense as a tank because we can't.
“ That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.”
If you didn’t write that, I would report an account security breach if I were you 😂
I've been telling you that you're not actually listening to what the players are saying for weeks, now, and that there is a huge difference between our IL and the players that are having problems. If you consider me trying to help you understand what they're saying this:
"One of the problems with these “discussions” is that people like you make up stuff to make people that provide actual facts look bad.
I have been called a whale, elitist, troll, fanboy and even shareholder the last few days just for disagreeing and providing counter arguments."
then I don't know how to help you. I'm really starting to think that they're correct and you're just here to divert every thread on tanks away from the real problems. As to that, I'm done replying to you on anything but the topic.
Comments
If to get back to the topic of the thread, though it is an interesting idea, and perhaps it is what needed, I don't think that changing the defense stat is the solution or the problem.
I would say that tanks have two issues, one is slower solo slugging, and I disagree that it should be about 3 times slower.
I think it should be almost on par (lets say 75%) but the build / loadout / slotted powers or whatever should be at the cost of tankiness.
You can have the DPS but not the tankiness, or can have the tnakiness but not the DPS.
And second thing, is indeed some misconception about stats, and what's more useful, but that is probably temporary until people adjust to the new system.
> Just to be clear about the matter, so that others can understand what happened:
>
> You changed the definition of DR with a rather obscure reference to "trials" (btw, not all mobs in trials are bosses, so "DR" is not always increased by awareness in trials) from the way it has been openly used in this thread since post one. I defined DR in my original post as the general DR, that works against *all* types of damage, and is determined from the defense stat.
>
> Using your modified "non-standard" changed version of DR, you then claimed that my statement about DR was "100% incorrect"
>
> The fact of the matter is, that you - in contrast to myself - you never explicitly stated your personal "non-standard" definition of DR, when you made your false accusation.
>
> The fact also is, that my statement remains 100% correct. It is based on a clearly stated definition of DR, which is compatible with standard D&D usage of the term. Also, my usage of the term DR was explicitly stated in the first post of this thread.
>
> The reason is, that this thread was originally designed - before you came around - to be narrowly focused on the implications of the change of the DR formula, that determines DR from the defense stat. You - for whatever reason - chose to dilute the focus by discussing a lot of other stuff. That can happen in such discussions. I don't really think its productive, but who am I to tell others how to discuss things.
I cap defense at 90%.
This results in a total of 53% damage resistance.
I equip an item that gives me +3% damage resistance.
Do the 3% damage resistance disappear because it doesn’t fit what you define as the definition of Damage Resistance, or is it included in total damage reduction/resistance calculation?
A boss has combat advantage while attacking me 100% of the time (I won’t make this example hard to understand by specifying that this is in a trial, but it has CA 100% of the time), it deals more damage to me. This damage can be resisted with awareness. Why do you want to treat the damage resisted by this resistance in any other way than other damage resisted?
Would it be better to operate with one value called Damage Resistance and one value called Resisted Damage, or sum it up ?
I think it is easier for others not as gifted as yourself to understand that incoming damage is reduced by X based on ALL your defensive stats ;
53% from defense.
Reduction from other defensive stats relevant to situation.
Items with equip bonuses stating you take less damage
Armor enchants that give you an increase to resistances.
Player powers that reduces damage taken.
If you want to nitpick and claim that resisted damage is not the same as resisted damage, feel free to do so.
Enemies have 90% CA damage.
CA damage applied when enemies have CA.
Bosses have 100% CA uptime
Bosses do 90% more dmg.
It doesnt matter how you call that damage. ITS DAMAGE. And is reduced by awareness or by damage resistance after that.
So awareness = dmg resistance vs bosses.
If the bosses had 100% crit, crit avoidance would be like awareness (more crit avoidance = more dmg reduction) but since enemies crit 50% of the time, crit avoidance is less valuable.
We dont need a master in maths to understand this, there is a condition that applies 100% of the time.
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> 2) If EVERYTHING is invested in awareness, the barbarians (for the forte) and the fighters (for the "RB", I don't know which key would be equivalent on PC), they could have approx 80% continuously. Paladins only reach high levels with their daily.
>
> 3) As I said, there is an CA damage multiplier factor that I don't know how to calculate. but by the name that it has, it is based on the time in which it is fighting with CA. And this is related to what I said in a previous post, about "the need for DPS to have almost everything capped to be effective". It is not because they are useless with no caps (imagine 4 stats at 80%, for example), its because if they do not have damage to kill a boss quickly, the tank dies. Here would be the cause.
>
> Therefore, to claim that with Def and Awar capped you are going through the game with 78% damage reduction, is simply lying. First, because it does not mitigate that, and second, because u cant go permanently with 90% awareness.
>
I think it’s safe to assume that a fighter or paladin both can reach 72% awareness. In a feral raptor party you gain 15% awareness.
This will take you to 87% awareness.
If you rattle your chain of scales, you will end up at 90% awareness permanently.
Is this impossible?
75% (when focusing on dps stats) seems fine to me and a desirable goalpoint, but we are currently far away from that.
Note that a new player generally has almost no options to shuffle defense stats to offense stats or vice versa. Enchantments currently have negligible effect in reshuffling stats (+2.8% for a single stat with an r15, by reducing all other 14 stats by the same total, e.g. -0.2% for every one of the 14 other stats). Leaves only a large selection of companions or mounts, but new players usually don't have that (and their comps and mounts are at best epic). True. Still I think the most useful stat to focus on first, for a new tank, is defense, because it applies to all types of damage.
Awareness is situational (also, in landscape you can often nullify CA by positioning) and deflect actually requires two stats to focus on (chance and severity), so effectively double the cost for the same effect. Also, deflect does not help against big attacks that can one-shot the tank. If you fail to deflect (and there is always a non-zero chance), you take all the damage.
So applying tanking oriented data, to make a solo (dps oriented) context, IMO is inherently skewed. While due to lack of time my personal experience is lagging behind, but when I'm playing on Paladin solo I'll swap stuff around to deal more damage at the cost of tankiness (different setup than group content).
About new players - I think those are actually the least of the issue. New players rely more on immediate short term gear. What currently drops in the quest line, what immediately drops from the quest line, dungeons, the low tear hunts or whatever. For GF/Barbie, it will be a matter of just swapping paragon and slay things, there is much less specialized long term investment.
This is not the case of someone investing millions and millions and months and months and now feel they need to swap to 0.
In this case Paladin is an issue, and hence why there were suggestions to solve it, but not with stats, Pitshade suggested to increase the feat of "When not in party get damage", which is simple and will work. I've suggested a more general idea of some feat or mechanic that will deplete stamina and divinity for added damage.
IMO, stats are not the only cog, and there are perhaps better cogs to solve these issues.
For not so new players who have issues in the zones they get into, the solution above will also work long term, since it will be a natural evolvement of the classes. Utilizing loadouts, paragons, or whatever the game offers. And I must add that the basics (2 loadouts) are for free and on purpose for players to use. Personally I wish that class had at least 2 roles, and it was so from the start. But while I do think a lot of the issue is lack of adjustment, IMO if there are ideas that can solve stuff, but maintain the tradeoffs of tankiness vs dealing damage then why not. But for the sake of the game as a whole, good balance is about tradeoffs, and not FOTM when people swap to the OP class every balance pass.
Bosses always tend to have CA at 100% uptime, regardless of positioning.
In landscape and against non-bosses you can often nullify CA through positioning and awareness is less useful.
If a boss has 90% CA, this will increase his damage output by a factor of x = 1+0.9 = 1.9.
Assuming a base-damage of 1, CA would result in a total effective damage of 1.9.
If you have 90% awareness, and awareness is subtracted from CA being a counter-stat, the damage will be the base-damage of 1 again.
This means, the total effective damage of the boss (1.9) will be reduced by a factor of 1.9 to 1, provided awareness is 90%
The reduction factor is 1/1.9 = 0.53, e.g. you take 53% of the damage you would take if you had 0% awareness.
This damage will be further reduced by defense, by multiplication with another factor of 0.53.
So yes, in a boss fight awareness has the same effectiveness to reduce damage than defense.
0.53 * 0.53 = 0.28
This means, for a boss fight you should ideally have 90% awareness and 90% defense.
If you cannot obtain 90% in both, you should attempt to have equal values of awareness and defense.
These are the most important defensive stats to focus on first (at least for boss fights).
Deflect requires two stats (chance and severity), does not help against one-shots, and therefore should be the last defensive stats to focus on.
EDIT: a different question is, how the damage multiplier by a factor of 0.28 at 90/90 defense/awareness compares to a typical dps with 50/50 defense/awareness.
At 50/50 the damage multiplier is 1/(1.5*1.5) = 0.44
0.44/0.28 = 1,57
This means a tank at 90/90 defense/awareness is 57% better in his damage soaking capability (due to defense/awareness vs bosses) than the typical dps at 50/50. Versus non-bosses its less than that. 57% better is significant, but the difference is not really that great. For a typical non-bis tank with 70/70 we get (1.7*1.7)/(1.5*1.5) =1,28, e.g. 28% better... Yeah, I very well know that damage soaking capability is not the only relevant feature of a tank. But 28% is pretty meh.
2) It is you who misunderstand the point, you fight to gain something useless, that is only good for the sake of appearances, while ignoring things that can actually benefit the class. This is one sure way to end up with a hamster class.
Lets be the most clear about this. I've played end-game on all 3 roles, and I couldn't care less of how many of my stats are capped and what roles caps what. The question is how effective a class can be in the role.
3) You contradict yourself, you state that you are happy that DPS will have all stats capped and additional encounters that give more damage and so on, but at the same time you are not happy that some roles, in your perception have something that you do not. And to be clear tanks mitigation is not defined by the number of stats they caped.
Would this end if DPS could cap only 3 stats? I say lets go for that option. Lets make it equal.
4) I wonder is this a hypothetical argument? Did you play end-game, and the stat balance is actually something you encountered? The question about CA uptime combined with the DPS checks falicy is not something a player who is capping stats should stop on. Do you have actual issue tanking that can be solved with the stat caps?
5) The stat system is built around players not reaching the caps. Yet if anyone just look at the stat graphs it is clear that not capping the stats has nothing to do with any alleged imbalance between the roles.
--
I think I should clarify (4), by how much you think you will be more tanky from the maximum now, to some perceived maximum you ask for? How much is this actually?
What's the overall efficiency of a player if the throw the same total amount of stats (the total is always the same due to how IL works) into those 4 stats you want vs the more spread around variant?
Just for some numbers, if we look at popular builds (yes towards end-game) not in combat, a tank is about 3 times tankier than DPS. In combat when stuff procs and group bonuses apply this becomes higher (Significantly), and can go into, well I won't say or people will cry that I want to get tanks nerfed. But the tools are available, calculators are there, and builds are public.
My point is that we can't just reduce the difference to per stat and say "20%" here or there is low. All those 20%'s together do add up.
Still if there is an issue, perhaps gameplay oriented change is more proper, for example stamina. A game should encourage playing and not walking around and be a dummy that takes damage, which if to be honest exactly what were tanks a couple of mods ago.
Tank also has many self buffs that improve what the class is proposed to do, such as skills that give more aggro,stamina (only the shield is already a self buff) and damage resistence. I don't think they should divert the focus including dps formulas around here. The Dev was clear, DPS gains 20% bonus damage and Tank earns 20% HP bonus which in his mind are equivalent and I agree with that thought.
“ Also, wilbur of course has a point, that there are many sources that effectively reduce our damage taken. Most of these, however, are situational. Most of them require a rather good knowledge of the game, that new players do not tend to possess. My focus was on the damage reduction that works for all types of damage. The major source of DR (for all damage taken) comes from defense. For this reason I attempted to focus the discussion on the changes to the DR formula (for all types of damage) calculated from defense.
It is obvious, that players with a lot of knowledge of their class and the mechanics, such as wilbur, will not have that great difficulties to cope with the changes. Therefore I tend to ignore them, in particular when the argument goes: "I (great player) can handle all content, so everything is fine."”
This is exactly why I keep saying that ingame documentation would help eliminate the lack of knowledge leading to a lot of misunderstandings and conclusions made from assumptions based on lack of accessible information.
For some weird reason a lot of forum posters think that I am attacking new and inexperienced players when I ask for proper ingame explanations of basic game mechanics.
2) The idea is still false, usually the tank will stand while the rest die. This was especially more pronounced the more gap there is in mitigation. Everyone die to large scale mechanics while the tank keeps dawdle around and doesn't even care. Move from cannons in Zariel? Neh.. Move from storm in ToMM? Neh.. C2G/G2C? Just soak it.
3) And in how many cases the issue was DPS that do not pay attention to CA? Or timings? Or Healers who do not manage Divinity? How do you think that one player had 800dps on a class while another had 400 on the same class with similar gear? How is that one group can do a dungeon with minimal IL, while others stuck there for hours? because they are flagged by the devs with immortality? Every new dungeon people call of a nerf because it takes too long to complete or they can't, then somehow by some magic after a couple of weeks everyone can complete it, after a month it's already boring because everyone completed it.
Every rework, mod6 the sky was falling, "no one can complete a dungeon" (lets put aside the ArP bug), then first day everything was completed by at least a group, first week more completed.. and so on..
Same with every rework. Yes, a lot of things are unbalanced, buggy and plain broken, but that doesn't make every complaint or shout for "Buff me" a valid one. And worse not all "buff me" actually solve any issues.
4) You brought the example of a gear item from previous mod used due to it's bonus. So I'm not following why one thing is "Here an example of how tanks have it bad they need to use something old for the equip bonus" but the parallel of "DPS use old set for the equip bonus" is somehow different?
At least it puts defense on the same footing/effectiveness as awareness (in boss fights).
I also repeated many times in this thread, that I think that tanks ("old" bis tanks and "new" low IL tanks) are generally in a very good spot now in dungeons and trials. Healers might have to work a little more, but well.
The remaining issue that was identified in this thread is
- low dps in solo landscape.
If we could get it to 75% of a comparable dps, that would be perfect. Actually that would be a better remedy, than improving the damage mitigation capabilities. The latter would only reduce the number of potions required to complete landscape content, which is a merely a partial solution that does not address the major issue, namely that it takes currently too long to do landscape content as a tank (in comparison to dps).
I must say, I was not fully aware that awareness is now on equal footing with defense (in boss fights). I have always focused on defense first (and this was a good strategy before they changed the formula). I currently do not have any difficulties in boss fights, but I think I can help out the healer a bit more, by aiming at equal percentages for defense and awareness. I guess I have to thank you for that :-)
In landscape I rarely use my tank paragon, for obvious reasons, so whether awareness is less useful than defense is not really a relevant question. I use my dps paragon on Barby, and healer paragon for pally. They both "automatically" have comparable defense/awareness stats (around 45-50%), because the focus is on the dps stats...
#1 The more defensive stats you have, the more hits you can tank.
#2 Content is designed around a specific level of "tankyness," once you meet that level, you are able to tank the content.
#3 Having stats beyond that threshold makes the content more forgiving to mistakes up to a point, at which point you can tank it without paying any attention to the game at all. If an enemy hits for 1 damage and you have 100,000 HP, it doesn't matter if you have 90% defense or 45% defense, the enemy isn't going to kill you.
#4 You cannot compare the number of stats a DPS can cap to the number of stats a tank can cap, because they are balanced around different factors.
#5 Tanks have aggro multipliers, DPS do not.
#6 Because of #5, a DPS who builds purely defensively would not be able to replace a tank, because they can't hold aggro.
#7 Tanks and healers in NW have mostly been shafted when it comes to bonuses on items. Items bonuses are usually designed for DPS.
#8 Whilst DPS get a lot of bonuses, the bonuses are actually very bland and uninteresting, not altering gameplay.
#9 I would prefer if the bonuses that exist on all items were entirely stripped away and Cryptic started from the ground up on bonus design, because bonuses which add 5% to a stat are dull and do not impact gameplay in a meaningful way.
#10 The current formula for tanks can actually work really well and it would imo be better if tank powers were reworked to better fit into the current system design (say allowing them to go over the cap, but giving them significant amounts like +100% defense).
That's probably the simplest fix, but as you and @thefabricant have both said, a full rework of tank powers to fit the new paradigm would be better - but I can't see when they'd manage to get that on their schedule, certainly not any time soon.
Personally I'd be content with Blessed Wanderer being set to 20%.
Edit: One mechanic worthy of immediate attention (to my mind) is divinity regen via shielding. Currently it increases based on the number of hits taken but not the strength of those hits - but divinity drain when using the tab mechanic (divine champion) is based on the strength of hits taken.
I believe the strength of hits taken should impact the amount of divinity gained as bosses hit slow but hard, meaning they can wipe your divinity with one hit but takes forever to regain it.
A means of giving players an option would be to change the feat Intimidating Presence, which is generally regarded as a 'dead feat' so instead of "Divine Champion now greatly increases threat generated but no longer automatically blocks attacks against you" - it instead allows a pally to switch to one that increases Divinity based on the strength of an incoming attack. This would be great situationally as it could work in loadouts for slow-hitting single target fights.
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> EDIT: a different question is, how the damage multiplier by a factor of 0.28 at 90/90 defense/awareness compares to a typical dps with 50/50 defense/awareness.
>
> At 50/50 the damage multiplier is 1/(1.5*1.5) = 0.44
>
> 0.44/0.28 = 1,57
>
> This means a tank at 90/90 defense/awareness is 57% better in his damage soaking capability (due to defense/awareness vs bosses) than the typical dps at 50/50. Versus non-bosses its less than that. 57% better is significant, but the difference is not really that great. For a typical non-bis tank with 70/70 we get (1.7*1.7)/(1.5*1.5) =1,28, e.g. 28% better... Yeah, I very well know that damage soaking capability is not the only relevant feature of a tank. But 28% is pretty meh.
This comparison leaves out important factors like block, DR items and class powers/feats.
Please just listen to more experienced players you will learn something fast, or just do your things and not open your mind and say that is the game fault not yours , there are to many players like that but they never let other people to help them to be better and just play on their own world.
You will reach a time when you learn game good and see this thread and will say i how wrong i was when thinking like this .
People here want to help you can ask for advice and not say all players are elitist dps whales.
If they bother to write here mean they want to help open people mind and to inform less informed people how game works .
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How about we do it this way... If the tanks want to survive how about they only run with great healers and 3 dps who not only know the content, but hit hard enough to kill whatever comes the group's way before the tank has to take too much damage.
That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.
Because while your faction claims that dps are immortal, I dare say otherwise. . .
> Yep. This is the reason why tanks are leaving the game. They come in here with their problems and all they get is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Is wilbur trying to help? Yes. Is he helping? No. Not at all.
>
> How about we do it this way... If the tanks want to survive how about they only run with great healers and 3 dps who not only know the content, but hit hard enough to kill whatever comes the group's way before the tank has to take too much damage.
>
> That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.
Unlike you, I don’t have a group to run with. I run with whoever is running the content that I want to run.
One of the problems with these “discussions” is that people like you make up stuff to make people that provide actual facts look bad.
I have been called a whale, elitist, troll, fanboy and even shareholder the last few days just for disagreeing and providing counter arguments.
I find behavior like this very weird, but I guess it is what happens when I provide information to people that want to make up stuff to fit their complaints.
I have shared multiple builds, ranging from budget builds to extreme “endgame” builds via nw-hub and YouTube, and many players have found these very helpful. I can’t claim to be a superior e-sports athlete or some kind of professor in NW, but I do make sure the information I provide is correct.
Simply asking a question in these forums instead of making wall-of-text posts based on false information would make it a lot easier to help.
Also, no, I don't have a problem with aggro, although I hear most tanks in the 30-50k range do. If they're losing aggro to you then that seems to back up the claim that there's a problem with the tank formula, right?
Either way, you and I both know that if the formula stays as it is tanks are going to keep getting absolutely hammered and there will be no reason to even spec full defense as a tank because we can't.
> People like me? I believe you have me confused with someone else. Either that or you really do just like to derail discussions.
>
> Either way, you and I both know that if the formula stays as it is tanks are going to keep getting absolutely hammered and there will be no reason to even spec full defense as a tank because we can't.
“ That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.”
If you didn’t write that, I would report an account security breach if I were you 😂
The problem is also often a bad build.
The problem is not knowing the mechanics.
If you cannot do something it does not automatically mean that the formula is wrong.
You always have to start from yourself.
I've seen tanks over 50k who have never been on end-game content. Because they'd rather play tank-dps, and despair that the game is broken.
"One of the problems with these “discussions” is that people like you make up stuff to make people that provide actual facts look bad.
I have been called a whale, elitist, troll, fanboy and even shareholder the last few days just for disagreeing and providing counter arguments."
then I don't know how to help you. I'm really starting to think that they're correct and you're just here to divert every thread on tanks away from the real problems. As to that, I'm done replying to you on anything but the topic.