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Tank's defense formula - a small modification to make tanking more relevant
motu999
Member Posts: 254 Arc User
It seems that tanks got hit hard with the combat changes. A very active thread in the General Discussion (PC) Section of the forum seems to suggest, that many "old" tank players are very upset with the new combat system, a couple might have left the game.
A major part of the criticism about the new combat system for tanks is, that the tank damage reduction formula has been changed from
old damage multiplier: (1 - defense% / 100%)
new damage multiplier: 1/(1 + defense% / 100%)
With the "old" formula a tank with 90% defense would get a damage multiplier of
x =1 - 90%/100% = 1-0.9 = 0.1
In other words, the tank only takes 10% of the unmitigated damage, the rest (90%) is mitigated by the high defense rating
With the new formula this has changed dramatically.
Now a tank with 90% defense gets a damage multiplier of
x = 1/1 + 90%/100%) = 1/1.9 ~ 0.53
In other words, the tank takes 53% of the unmitigated damage, only 47% is mitigated.
I understand why the formula was changed:
Taking only 10% of the "normal" damage at the defense cap of 90% is a bit over the top,
in particular if a players defense percentage can be increased temporarily beyond 90% by special effects or powers
However, now taking more than half of the damage (53%) at max defense makes tanks far less survivable than ever before.
In fact, it does not provide any incentive to maximize defense, because 70% defense still results in
x ~0.59
In other words, the benefit from going to 70% defense (taking 59% of the normal damage) to 90% defense (taking 53% of the normal damage) is marginal.
As I said, I understand why the change was made, because the "old" formula had the non-desirable effect or "increasing return".
With the old formula, the closer you got to the 90% cap, the more damage reduction you would actually get for every % point added.
The new formula ensures, that there is a "decreasing return", when you approach the cap. This is how it should be.
But on the other hand
- if a maxed out tank still takes 53% of the damage,
- and the dps typically take 65-70% of the damage
the tank takes almost as much damage as the dps.
In fact, currently a maxed out tank at 90% defense still takes 75% of the damage, that a typical dps would take (with 45-50% defense).
Tanks are damage-wise far too close to the dps, in order to tank effectively in difficult content.
IMO a maxed out tank should at least be able to withstand three times the damage that an average dps can.
My suggestion therefore is the following MODIFICATION of the damage formula (for tanks only):
If you change it
- from x = 1/(1 + defense%/100%)
- to x_mod = 1/(1 + 3*defense/100%)
you would still have diminishing returns close to the cap, but a maxed out tank with 90% defense would have a damage multiplier of
x = 1/(1 + 3*0.9) = 1/3.8 ~ 0.26
If you compare this to the damage multiplier of a "typical" dps at 50% defense with x = 1/(1 + 0.5) ~ 0.66
a maxed out tank could withstand somewhat less than three times the damage an average dps would do.
This is IMO the right proportion, and it will make it easier to balance difficult group content, that requires a real damage soaking tank.
A major part of the criticism about the new combat system for tanks is, that the tank damage reduction formula has been changed from
old damage multiplier: (1 - defense% / 100%)
new damage multiplier: 1/(1 + defense% / 100%)
With the "old" formula a tank with 90% defense would get a damage multiplier of
x =1 - 90%/100% = 1-0.9 = 0.1
In other words, the tank only takes 10% of the unmitigated damage, the rest (90%) is mitigated by the high defense rating
With the new formula this has changed dramatically.
Now a tank with 90% defense gets a damage multiplier of
x = 1/1 + 90%/100%) = 1/1.9 ~ 0.53
In other words, the tank takes 53% of the unmitigated damage, only 47% is mitigated.
I understand why the formula was changed:
Taking only 10% of the "normal" damage at the defense cap of 90% is a bit over the top,
in particular if a players defense percentage can be increased temporarily beyond 90% by special effects or powers
However, now taking more than half of the damage (53%) at max defense makes tanks far less survivable than ever before.
In fact, it does not provide any incentive to maximize defense, because 70% defense still results in
x ~0.59
In other words, the benefit from going to 70% defense (taking 59% of the normal damage) to 90% defense (taking 53% of the normal damage) is marginal.
As I said, I understand why the change was made, because the "old" formula had the non-desirable effect or "increasing return".
With the old formula, the closer you got to the 90% cap, the more damage reduction you would actually get for every % point added.
The new formula ensures, that there is a "decreasing return", when you approach the cap. This is how it should be.
But on the other hand
- if a maxed out tank still takes 53% of the damage,
- and the dps typically take 65-70% of the damage
the tank takes almost as much damage as the dps.
In fact, currently a maxed out tank at 90% defense still takes 75% of the damage, that a typical dps would take (with 45-50% defense).
Tanks are damage-wise far too close to the dps, in order to tank effectively in difficult content.
IMO a maxed out tank should at least be able to withstand three times the damage that an average dps can.
My suggestion therefore is the following MODIFICATION of the damage formula (for tanks only):
If you change it
- from x = 1/(1 + defense%/100%)
- to x_mod = 1/(1 + 3*defense/100%)
you would still have diminishing returns close to the cap, but a maxed out tank with 90% defense would have a damage multiplier of
x = 1/(1 + 3*0.9) = 1/3.8 ~ 0.26
If you compare this to the damage multiplier of a "typical" dps at 50% defense with x = 1/(1 + 0.5) ~ 0.66
a maxed out tank could withstand somewhat less than three times the damage an average dps would do.
This is IMO the right proportion, and it will make it easier to balance difficult group content, that requires a real damage soaking tank.
8
Comments
Tanks gain up to 20% damage and damage reduction as their threat level increases.
But the problem remains, that the difference in damage soaking capability between dps and tanks is too small.
Also, there is no real incentive to increase defense beyond 70%
> Sure, there are other - maybe better - ways to address the current problem.
> But the problem remains, that the difference in damage soaking capability between dps and tanks is too small.
> Also, there is no real incentive to increase defense beyond 70%
Thank you for this! It’s hard to make folks understand what an impact the new system has especially when our hit points have been reduced by a third as well.
If a Fighter wants to run as dps they just switch their loadout so your comment would mainly apply to Paladins. As you run a Fighter, you must be aware of the huge increase in incoming damage and the reduction of soaking ability compared to dps classes. This puts ALL tanks just a small percentage away from being unnecessary for private queue runs.
Especially as the Barbarian and Warlock have Awareness as their defensive forte.
I was in a RQ lomm run the other day on my cleric (healer) and we had a 30k tank (fighter) who couldn't hold aggro and got lost at some point so he couldn't reach the rest of us waiting at the Boreworm door. After 10 minutes of waiting we kicked him and the rest of us went in and killed the boss.
By the time we reached Trobriand, a replacement tank arrived: a 30k Pally who was just as bad as the previous Fighter. He also couldn't maintain aggro but still managed to die even with me having him flagged. In the end everyone just ignored the tank and killed Trobriand.
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This is not a bad tank, and a better DPS than most of the DPS players. Increasing survivability would only increase the demand for speccs like this, resulting in less demand for actual tanks.
If warlocks and barbarian DPS can tank, why are we not seeing TOMM and Zariel clears with 8 DPS and 2 heal ? How many examples can you provide with 4 DPS + 1 healer VoS clears ?
I have to say those are impressive stats - I'm guessing fully potted etc, but still goes to show what's still possible when you max TIL. Funnily enough, I've also seen maxed dps players that have defensive stats that are just as impressive as your offensive stats. They can easily take a hit like a tank. Still, if they can take the hits AND have a 20% base DPS boost over your tank, who needs even the impressive tank that you've posted?
Are we actually at that point yet? I don't think so as it would require the entire team to be built that effectively - the point I'm making is that we aren't far from it and as Cryptic put much more focus into dps than tanks, it's likely we will slide that way over the next year or so.
I've seen people forming TOMM runs excluding tanks but not Zariel (yet) but as I didn't participate I didn't mention it as I have no first hand knowledge of how it went. I only mention what I experience personally.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Now we live in a false illusion with some items / features giving dmg reduction that DOESNT WORK, and you feel save and BAM, the big hit kills you. Only few of them work.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
wanting a fix from them is madness /you know - repeat the same thing and wanting diff result/
In this setup Im running 6x indomitable runestones and a summoned companion, making it possible to tank AND out-DPS 90% of the playerbase.
Increasing tank survivability will only enable more players to run setups like these, even in the hardest content. This will effectively remove normal tanks from the "meta", forcing tanks that are gearing up to do another rebuild.
DPS is also lacking threat management skills, making it very hard to effectively replace a tank in content where aggro is key.
With the removal of the stacking of Armor Break, there will be very few groups left with high enough damage output to skip phases in trials, resulting in need for tanks.
I would leave tank DR/Survivability as it is, and rather focus on proper ingame tutorials to avoid experiences like the one you had in LOMM. With the extreme boost to tank threat generation, inability to hold aggro could only come from lack of knowledge.
If anything should be changed, it would be the DPS paragons ability to reach high levels of the most effective defensive stats (Defense and Awareness).
On the 2nd point - you know, I thought of that too - but if they go that route, you can be sure they'll also cap the most effective offense stats for tanks & healers.
I'd be cool with that except for 1 point: the Paladin being the only class that doesn't have a dps loadout for soloing. I know from your previous posts on Paladin related threads that this doesn't bother you, it's pretty clear from your history that you are anti-paladin. I'm wondering if you're still sore about the old Bubble period when Fighters weren't wanted?
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
When I said "If anything should be changed, it would be the DPS paragons ability to reach high levels of the most effective defensive stats (Defense and Awareness).", I mean removing the most effective defensive stats from fortes and self-buffs, not capping in any way.
Adjusting available companion ACB slots for DPS paragons and defensive stats on DPS centric gear would also be an alternative.
Rjc is a good guy and tester.Ask him when he comes on line.Ask him if he said or not that a vanguard dps build will dominate the charts.
if he does not remember i will dig in the two year old threads.
Just ask him,we are in the same channel.
And the cw was ofcourse Sharp.
Ask @rjc9000 and @thefabricant
While a tank character holds aggro:
* The tank receives 10% damage reduction from targets when holding top threat.
* All of the tank's allies gain a 10% damage increase against enemies targeting a tank.
The thread is about increase defense of tanks.
you step in with counterargument that if we increase defense then we will have DPS tank builds.
I reply same argument was made years ago and it was null.
Why you have difficulty?
Armadeonx answered to your argument in a precise manner.Your IL allows you to put offensive stats.But your IL and your wealth cause of accumulated gear and experience to choose so.
Even so at your Il a DPS player can make the same while having aswell +20% damage.This proves nothing.
But you are one player. The rest hundreds of tanks in NW are suffering.All channels are asking tanks that are nowhere to be found cause the game is unrewarding towards tanks.For reasons i posted in another thread. Too much stress ,bad TTk ratio, lower defenses.
the devs are not stupid. 95% of players are DPS and game is cattering to them.
Devs know exactly what is going on. But they have to "balance" difficulty and gameplay. And they are doing so by displeasing the less part of the players the 5% that are tanks.
Isnt it obvious? imagining instead of reducing tanks defenses reducing dps output of dps.Just imagine the flame war.
they would had come into same result as concerning game difficulty.
But is one thing to HAMSTER of 95% people and another to HAMSTER off 5%.
And they just vote for the second.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
There is no lack of defensive stats for tanks, there is lack of understanding of the new system.
Increasing tank defensive stats will enable tanks to build 100% offensively and have zero need for DPS in endgame content.
Limiting DPS paragons ability to stack defensive stats will make DPS more dependant of tanks, and tanks will still need DPS to clear content.
The only way to make tanks relevant, along with increasing the relevance for tanks, it to tie everything to gear.
Like, tanks are normally wearing heavy armor which gives more resistances and HP, DPS wear light or medium gear, medium giving a bit of defenses and a bit of damage, light gives more damage and mobility but low defenses. But limit what gear can be used depending on class and role. For example a tank fighter can choose between heavy and medium but a DPS fighter can choose between medium and light. So any player will have to choose, high defenses but low damage or low defenses and high damage. Only way to get everyone to do their job and only that.
This way tanks can get high resistances and HP without the DPS being able to.
Also lower the damage of the DPS, as long as there are players that can clear a group in mere seconds, even without anyone being there, or kill bosses within a couple of minutes the game will be unhealthy and tanks will rarely ever be truly needed and not just to get the required group for randoms or a punching bag for the bosses in IC, VoS, tomm and zariel.
Everything I've been reading in the forum about the state of tank's leads me to believe that players don't like a minimum of difficulty being implemented in the game. And as the darthpotater mentioned there are still corrections to come, so be patient and stop asking for nerfs or more changes than there have ever been.
A DPS can more easily sacrifice levels to balance and play without maxed mounts, gear or comps.
You have to PLAY to get the stuff, if you can’t it’s SOL. Tanks now can’t solo and we arnt made to dodge out of the red. So there’s lots of dying. Not fun.
So some quality of life changes need to be made because it’s not like they set out to bone Tanks.
> I don't believe it's a fake image, it must be in a group where everyone is using Feral Raptor and Tamed Raptor and with DPS potions plus other external buff's it must have reached those statuses.
>
> Everything I've been reading in the forum about the state of tank's leads me to believe that players don't like a minimum of difficulty being implemented in the game. And as the darthpotater mentioned there are still corrections to come, so be patient and stop asking for nerfs or more changes than there have ever been.
The screenshot is of my solo AoE adventure zone loadout. It’s neither fake or in full raptor group. There are zero buffs other than self-buffs and consumables in play.
Statements like the one @datarider#1036 made is the reason I claim that lack of system understanding is the biggest issue for tanks at the moment.
All the complaints are from players who don’t have the gear or resources or knowledge to play their characters. You know, the average player.
Must be why so many Tanks are quitting and the Ques are getting longer.
So keep blaming them and telling them to learn their characters and to play better.
Because that’s helping.
As I stated before ; I made this as a proof of concept and for running random Qs.
I have adjusted the setup even more after that screenshot was taken, and now comfortably tank all content (including VoS) with it.
I simply don’t like playing Dreadnaught fighter, so having a tank build that is very effective for solo AND grouped content fits me very well.
This setup can easily be used on both Paladin and Barbarian tank paragons, so the “need” for a paladin DPS paragon is just another product of lacking knowledge.
> Yeah that’s it.
>
> All the complaints are from players who don’t have the gear or resources or knowledge to play their characters. You know, the average player.
>
> Must be why so many Tanks are quitting and the Ques are getting longer.
>
> So keep blaming them and telling them to learn their characters and to play better.
>
> Because that’s helping.
>
>
>
The game provides what is needed to get gear/resources.
The game does NOT provide a way for new/average players to understand how the combat system works.