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Official - Combat Changes - Forte

noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 651 Cryptic Developer
This thread is for feedback/bugs with the new stat Forte.

Forte is a stat which grants its total percentage to other stats based on your paragon path.

All paths get 1 offensive and 1 defensive stat for the secondary stats from Forte.


Paragon 50% Stat | 25% Stat 1 | 25% Stat 2

Assassin Power | Combat Advantage | Deflect Severity
Whisperknife Power | Combat Advantage | Deflect Severity
Arcanist Power | Combat Advantage | Critical Avoidance
Thaumaturge Power | Combat Advantage | Critical Avoidance
Hunter Power | Accuracy | Deflect
Warden Power | Accuracy | Deflect
Hellbringer Power | Critical Strike | Awareness
SoulWeaver Soulweave Regen | Critical Strike | Awareness
Devout Divinity Regen | Critical Severity | Deflect
Arbiter Power | Critical Severity | Deflect
Justicar Defense | Critical Strike | Deflect Severity
Oathkeeper Divnity Regen | Critical Strike | Deflect Severity
Blademaster Power | Critical Sev | Awareness
Sentinel Defense | Critical Sev | Awareness
Dreadnought Power | Accuracy | Critical Avoidance
Vanguard Defense | Accuracy | Critical Avoidance
Post edited by noworries#8859 on
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Comments

  • noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 651 Cryptic Developer
    edited December 2020
    Every path gets a an offensive and defensive stat.
  • noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 651 Cryptic Developer

    Tested against many items. Forte is not giving any stats. Many are confusing the stat gains/losses with Combined Rating (like on dark enchants or mount insignia's), but when running actual numbers, forte is not giving any stats. Tested using a Ranger (both paragons). For instance, adding/removing a rank 14 dark enchantment - utility slot (has 162 combined rating, 270 forte), all stats change by exactly 162, the 270 forte does not change any of the listed forte stats.

    Forte applies to the total percent, not the rating values.
  • samfandango#1314 samfandango Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    @noworries#8859 So, I see Forte has replaced Hellfire Expertise on Warlock Hellbringer, losing us 20% Recharge Speed and two extra sources of Soul Spark generation. Have other DPS classes lost Class Mechanics to Forte as well? I only have a Warlock on PC, so am unable to check other classes at the moment, but if you or any other players could provide an answer that would be appreciated.

    EDIT: Although it does appear that Spark generation is no longer tied to crit which is a good thing. I imagine we'll find out more about class specific changes once you guys have got most of the legwork done on overall combat changes
    Post edited by samfandango#1314 on
  • kushdu#9101 kushdu Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    To not make differences between classes and paragons i think is a must that forte gives the same to every paragon, just making a diference depending on the role.
    For example, for Dps distribute forte between all offensives stats and a bonus to base damage, Tanks all defensive stats and a bonus to stamina or HP, and healer all offensive and defensive stats and divinity regeneration.
    Something likes this looks more fair to not make some classes take "better" options than other only for the class you are playing.
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    nisckis said:

    hastati96 said:

    Feedback Forte stat distribution for paragon paths
    As it has been already mentioned in this thread Forte is kinda the same as the live system with the companion slots. You either win the good stats / slots or you lose. There will always be a "worst" class in regard of the stat distribution for Forte. This could be prevented by multiple ways.

    1. Each role (dps / tank / heal) has the same 3 stats (for example Power, Crit, Acc for all DPS paragon paths)
    2. Reduce the difference between roles by having 2 pre-selected stats and only 1 variable (like Defense and Deflect are set for each tank paragon path, the last one is variable for each)
    3. Have 1 pre-selected stat and 2 variable (like Power is set for DPS, other 2 are choosable)
    4. Make all 3 stats choosable (in Race creation or so)

    I really like the option 4, making them eligible by players. It could even be done like the 6 companion powers and the offhand modification.
    First one is the paragon class specific and depending on your paragon you have.
    Second one is offensive and you can choose from the offensive stats.
    Third one is defensive and you can choose from the defensive stats.

    First slot is a fixed list by paragon.
    Second slot and Third slot are unlocked independently of each other using cubes of augmentation using the same interface as the offhand modification.

    This way every player has a fixed pool to choose from, like with companion powers, and the freedom to choose like in offhand modifications.
    I like this but i would take it even further

    Currently it is very easy for a DPS to over cap on power, and a tank to overcap in defence (able to get my dps to 90% power and my tank to 90% defence no problem)

    How about having it giving all role types 25% in a fixed stat, so DPS get 25% power, tanks 25% defence and healers 25% regen
    then the remaining 75% split into 1 offensive stat of your choice, 1 defensive stat of your choice and 1 universal stat of your choice ( basically 25% of anything, including utility stats like control/outgoing healing etc)
    In addition add divinity/soulthiny as a utility stat not effected by combined rating, but at least showing on the stat list

    So you could still take the same things making a 50/25/25 split if you choose, but being able to drop 25% of the primary to pick something else would be a big deal
  • tgwolftgwolf Member Posts: 501 Arc User

    arazith07 said:

    arazith07 said:

    Deflect for arcanist? yeah that totally fills the theme.

    I dont know why when everyone wants options you give us fixed stats for class. Same with the change to basic abilities to class.
    Less options = less fun

    Also when changing loadout to other paragon you need to adjust more stats so maybe change an item you dont want to change.

    And finally why anyone will want this stat when you can pick other stats from enchants? or you will force us with this stat in all the gear?

    Don't arcane shields deflect? Also if you don't want the stats, don't slot Forte in Utilities.
    What are you talking about? arcane shield? it gives 30% of your total hp as shield, it has nothing to do with deflect....
    You were talking about the theme, wizards use wards and arcane shields to deflect attacks instead of relying on their cloth armor to absorb like a fighter would use their plate armor.
    I think it was very obvious that I mean the theme of arcanist in this game, not in other dungeons and dragons game,... deflect is totally useless for a class that only can be dps, and a ranged one. If you cant understand that... well
    You want your answer?

    With the new system, both Deflect chance and Severity can reach a potential Max of 90%

    Now obviously that's not going to happen as stacking specifically for that would be foolish but since you're so concerned about the amount of damage you take; and make no mistake, damage is an inevitability; it's better to essentially take no damage at all than to rely on mitigation alone.

    Deflect is literally MORE valuable to a squishy Class, something well known to anyone who plays D&D.
  • xander#0631 xander Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    SoulWeaver Soulweave Regen | Combat Advantage | Critical Avoidance
    Devout Divinity Regen | Accuracy | Deflect
    Oathkeeper Divnity Regen | Accuracy | Awareness

    why do we have useless stat for healing in the healer forte? i mean accurancy and combat advantage, we don't do damage, or will they be useful to our role? i can't talk about other healers but i'd rather have 2 defece stat than a useless attack stat (i'm a devout btw) .
    forte is the main source of 'other source' in the total percentage, meaning we will be pratically in a 50% cap in those that are outside of forte; please correct me if i'm wrong i found pretty hard to manage my stat, but if the rating have a cap at 50% what other source do we have to increase our critical chance or defense?

    reality is what most recognize as true
  • jawsofthelifejawsofthelife Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    @noworries#8859
    Hello, could you please explain us how exactly the Forte % stat works on the other stats percentages?
    What happens if we max Forte %?

    Cheers
  • hastati96hastati96 Member Posts: 498 Arc User

    @noworries#8859
    Hello, could you please explain us how exactly the Forte % stat works on the other stats percentages?
    What happens if we max Forte %?

    Cheers


    Let's say a Vanguard has 50% Forte. The stat distribution is like the following:

    Vanguard Defense | Deflect | Accuracy

    The stats effected by Forte are Defense (by 50%), Deflect (by 25%) and Accuracy (by 25%).
    50% of Forte = Value that is added directly onto your Defense rating so +25%.
    25% of Forte = Value that is added to Deflect and Accuracy which is +12.5%

    All other stats like Crit or Power are untouched by Forte.

    so let's say vou have 40% Defense by default, Forte would add another 25% which would lead to 65% defense that your character will have. Same calculation is done with Deflect and Accuracy by adding a flat 12.5% on top of your default value.

    If you max out Forte to 90%, the first state would be increased by 45%, the 2nd and 3rd stat by 22.5%.
    Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
  • masterogamasteroga Member Posts: 474 Arc User
    So why different stats between paragon paths? If you cap your...whatever stat on 1 paragon and then switch over to the other paragon only to now have it uncapped, that doesnt seem like good design
  • g4uld0th#6545 g4uld0th Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    Hello,

    regarding Forte I do hope you will take in to consideration to give players much needed flexibility in choosing their forte stats while choosing their paragon. Flexibility in choosing a stat gives us oportunity to build our character as we see fit and gives us the flexibility to adjust to new items that will come along the way. I love the idea that depending on the class power, defense and regen is a mandatory stat but give us a chance to choose 1 defensive and 1 offensive stat.
    Giving us the choice on how to build our character makes us more involved and makes us play the game even more.

    Thank you.
  • supmadbrosupmadbro Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    one of the goals of Forte is to make it so everyone doesn't end up with the same stat layouts and to give some differences to the classes/paragon paths.

    But some classes/paragons are now left with a less effective stat. I look at this differently, I look at paragon vs same paragon e.g. assassin vs assassin instead of looking at class vs different class like what you're comparing. With the way forte currently is every assassin (or any paragon) is gonna have the exact same cookie cutter build as another assassin. for example If you give us a choice in forte some assassins might run accuracy forte with bilethorn/dread enchantment, but if they were running vorpal enchantment they might run crit strike forte. Yes it might make different classes run similar stats, but it could also add some variety when looking at 2 different players of the same paragon, not everyone is going to follow the meta.
  • mzreaper#7914 mzreaper Member Posts: 12 Arc User

    I do not think we will go forward with people choosing their Forte stats. Besides not being setup for that type of system at all, one of the goals of Forte is to make it so everyone doesn't end up with the same stat layouts and to give some differences to the classes/paragon paths.

    In regards to the argument that being at range means deflect/deflect severity don't matter as defensive stats. That isn't really true. If you get hit at all, deflect, deflect severity, critical avoidance all play a roll. If you don't ever get hit at all then no defensive stat ever matters.

    In terms of Awareness. First to make sure we're all viewing Combat Advantage the same way, I wanted to make sure people know it isn't if a critter is behind you. It is if two critters are on opposite sides of you. Meaning if there is a group of critters you're fighting and they fan out to attack, they can end up on your left and right side and trigger combat advantage.

    I suspect a much bigger focus is that awareness doesn't play a roll in boss fights most of the time. That is a very valid point and one we've been discussing in the design team because it does make awareness a stat that is a lot less important than the others. A change we're going to try out is making big single bosses have combat awareness on at all times. It makes sense thematically for these big critters as a dragon is a massive beast, and someone like Halaster is an extremely powerful, near diety, wizard floating in the air above you. It also goes a long way for taking a stat that most want to dump and instead makes it have a solid purpose in the game.

    For healers we can look into putting critical strike/sev on the offensive stat.

    Wanted to pass along that info and those thoughts for the discussion of Forte.

    I get that it might not be possible to choose but at least look at what stats are being given. For example, way too much power for dps. Its one of the big problems with the upcoming mod, everyone has too much power already. If forte gave another useful stat instead of so much power than maybe all the power giving itens/comps/mounts/etc we have would not be so worthless anymore. 25% over 4 stats. or 25% for power and 50% for another.
  • jawsofthelifejawsofthelife Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    hastati96 said:

    @noworries#8859
    Hello, could you please explain us how exactly the Forte % stat works on the other stats percentages?
    What happens if we max Forte %?

    Cheers


    Let's say a Vanguard has 50% Forte. The stat distribution is like the following:

    Vanguard Defense | Deflect | Accuracy

    The stats effected by Forte are Defense (by 50%), Deflect (by 25%) and Accuracy (by 25%).
    50% of Forte = Value that is added directly onto your Defense rating so +25%.
    25% of Forte = Value that is added to Deflect and Accuracy which is +12.5%

    All other stats like Crit or Power are untouched by Forte.

    so let's say vou have 40% Defense by default, Forte would add another 25% which would lead to 65% defense that your character will have. Same calculation is done with Deflect and Accuracy by adding a flat 12.5% on top of your default value.

    If you max out Forte to 90%, the first state would be increased by 45%, the 2nd and 3rd stat by 22.5%.
    @hastati96 , ty so much for your explanation.
    Have you found other sources of forte, besides Insignias, dark enchantments and Charisma?

  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User


    I suspect a much bigger focus is that awareness doesn't play a roll in boss fights most of the time. That is a very valid point and one we've been discussing in the design team because it does make awareness a stat that is a lot less important than the others. A change we're going to try out is making big single bosses have combat awareness on at all times. It makes sense thematically for these big critters as a dragon is a massive beast, and someone like Halaster is an extremely powerful, near diety, wizard floating in the air above you. It also goes a long way for taking a stat that most want to dump and instead makes it have a solid purpose in the game.

    What is the designed Combat Advantage bonus for critters then?
  • darshu212darshu212 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    I do not think we will go forward with people choosing their Forte stats. Besides not being setup for that type of system at all, one of the goals of Forte is to make it so everyone doesn't end up with the same stat layouts and to give some differences to the classes/paragon paths.

    In regards to the argument that being at range means deflect/deflect severity don't matter as defensive stats. That isn't really true. If you get hit at all, deflect, deflect severity, critical avoidance all play a roll. If you don't ever get hit at all then no defensive stat ever matters.

    In terms of Awareness. First to make sure we're all viewing Combat Advantage the same way, I wanted to make sure people know it isn't if a critter is behind you. It is if two critters are on opposite sides of you. Meaning if there is a group of critters you're fighting and they fan out to attack, they can end up on your left and right side and trigger combat advantage.

    I suspect a much bigger focus is that awareness doesn't play a roll in boss fights most of the time. That is a very valid point and one we've been discussing in the design team because it does make awareness a stat that is a lot less important than the others. A change we're going to try out is making big single bosses have combat awareness on at all times. It makes sense thematically for these big critters as a dragon is a massive beast, and someone like Halaster is an extremely powerful, near diety, wizard floating in the air above you. It also goes a long way for taking a stat that most want to dump and instead makes it have a solid purpose in the game.

    For healers we can look into putting critical strike/sev on the offensive stat.

    Wanted to pass along that info and those thoughts for the discussion of Forte.

    Yup, sure, make combat advantage be at every side of our char, because the awareness stat is useless and we have to give it some use, great idea .... notice the irony

    And about all getting all the same stat at forte ... notice that its like that because are the best for everyone, so forcing people to some stat that are not as good as others... is frustrating
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
    Forte tooltip in powers tab needs clarification (+50% +25% +25%)
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  • hypnotorioushypnotorious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    I do not think we will go forward with people choosing their Forte stats. Besides not being setup for that type of system at all, one of the goals of Forte is to make it so everyone doesn't end up with the same stat layouts and to give some differences to the classes/paragon paths.

    In regards to the argument that being at range means deflect/deflect severity don't matter as defensive stats. That isn't really true. If you get hit at all, deflect, deflect severity, critical avoidance all play a roll. If you don't ever get hit at all then no defensive stat ever matters.

    In terms of Awareness. First to make sure we're all viewing Combat Advantage the same way, I wanted to make sure people know it isn't if a critter is behind you. It is if two critters are on opposite sides of you. Meaning if there is a group of critters you're fighting and they fan out to attack, they can end up on your left and right side and trigger combat advantage.

    I suspect a much bigger focus is that awareness doesn't play a roll in boss fights most of the time. That is a very valid point and one we've been discussing in the design team because it does make awareness a stat that is a lot less important than the others. A change we're going to try out is making big single bosses have combat awareness on at all times. It makes sense thematically for these big critters as a dragon is a massive beast, and someone like Halaster is an extremely powerful, near diety, wizard floating in the air above you. It also goes a long way for taking a stat that most want to dump and instead makes it have a solid purpose in the game.

    For healers we can look into putting critical strike/sev on the offensive stat.

    Wanted to pass along that info and those thoughts for the discussion of Forte.

    I understand wanting to instill some variety. But the second half of the message, 'making big single bosses have combat awareness on at all times' is what undermines the first half, 'I do not think we will go forward with people choosing their Forte stats'.

    If you design a boss, or all bosses, in such a way that they effectively negate one of the offensive stats given by a paragon path's Forte, you are essentially knocking them out of that content. Every dps will cap power plus one, and only one, other stat. Forte is what decides which can be capped. Giving bosses massive awareness effectively removes Whisperknife, Arcanist, and Hellbringer from queues because their secondary offensive Forte stat becomes useless.

    I recognize that a boss with high awareness is just a consideration at this point, but this kind of plan is our main concern. If we can't choose our Forte, we are at your mercy. Players will always look for a best path. You can't prevent people from min/maxing. But you can provide sufficient diversity that people will feel free to explore different paths. Restricting choice is not how to promote freedom to explore.

    ETA:
    I see now that when you said 'combat awareness' you may have meant combat advantage. I took it as awareness. Whatever you actually intended, my point remains: When we can't select our forte, we risk being ruled out of content that is built to effectively eliminate our secondary offensive stat.
  • justtester#3228 justtester Member Posts: 73 Arc User

    one of the goals of Forte is to make it so everyone doesn't end up with the same stat layouts and to give some differences to the classes/paragon paths.

    I always thought you already did it by making different variants of same gear piece giving different stats depending on which class this variant of gear piece for. Also, let's say I'm playing Thaumaturge but I want to use CA build instead of crit. How can I replace my crit with CA? I can't. I can take away dark enchantments from utility slots but I can't replace them with something giving me CA instead of crit.

    A change we're going to try out is making big single bosses have combat awareness on at all times. It makes sense thematically for these big critters as a dragon is a massive beast, and someone like Halaster is an extremely powerful, near diety, wizard floating in the air above you. It also goes a long way for taking a stat that most want to dump and instead makes it have a solid purpose in the game.

    If it works all time on everyone regardless how they stand and who they're facing then what the difference between this and a simple increasing the boss damage on X percents? You're just making Defense #2 which everyone will either have to cap if the damage will be high enough or just ignore if it won't.

    How about to stop making weird things like forcing Awareness work NOT how it supposed and described to work and instead make a boss fight more like on Lomm or old dungeons like Dread Vault where a handling of mobs spawns was an important part of a fight, actually a fun part of fight which also gave players some room for creativity how to handle these packs.

    Also you always can just remove Awareness if you don't really want to change anything.
    This forum is an echo chamber
  • tardbathtardbath Member Posts: 80 Arc User
    So shielding a boss attack(i need to direclty face the attack for that) will make me take CA damage, just because the boss will have combat awareness all the time?

    Did i understand that correct?
  • shugenshashugensha Member Posts: 191 Arc User
    "one of the goals of Forte is to make it so everyone doesn't end up with the same stat layouts and to give some differences to the classes/paragon paths."

    Oh, you mean like in mod 15 when we actually had the freedom to customize our characters with a basic tree and three others?
    Nah, i know it's not.. The freedom to be "different" in the game is with the Appearance tab (which is really dope tbh). Other than that you won't see that much "differences" cuz this doesn't change the fact that you still need to max your core stats, and the "differences" will be as right now: either your stats are bad/need work or you are end game.
    Or are you guys talking about the difference that there is in healing, shields, tanking and dps? I feel this change will shift once more the balance but oh well, that is something that always has been there.
    Other than that, i don't see "different" builds cuz even at dungeons i can see ppl saying "dude, you should change ____ for ____ and blablabla", and don't forget builds online. We don't have the freedom to experience cuz there is already a "this is the best build".
    The best changes i see are from new player to veteran where you need to change powers and all as you get more items. Or maybe a rotation for X dung.

    Combat advantage to a soulweaver is like grilled meat to a vegetarian. You do realize that we have *bad word* dmg powers, right? Only two times i use dps powers/at-wills and its only cuz im forced to in LoMM. Other than that I just run around with a full healing rotation. Unless you guys are cooking ANOTHER rework for soulweaver.

    Disclaimer: I am not blaming you nor anyone for this (even tho it sounds kinda harsh), after all, the changes just hitted the preview server and there are a looooot of things that need to be taken into account like items that gives flat power and the classic essence defiler that was never fixed from weapons.
    Plus, there isn't a date for this so i guess it will take a long time, meaning ppl will have time to get ready for any nerf that is comming.
    The meta it's just a guideline. And guidelines are boring.

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    Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour

  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,460 Arc User
    @noworries#8859

    I agree that letting us set all Forte stats would make no sense. Were that the case, we know exactly what would happen: the community would settle on a meta and everyone would follow suit. That's why I advocate for setting just one of them, or alternately adding a fourth one that we could set.
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