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DO NOT NERF TOMM

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  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,461 Arc User

    micky1p00 said:

    To be honest the dungeon is not the issue, people are.

    This horses**t attitude of you MUST have this weapon, and this chest and these boots and these gloves.
    You MUST do this rotation, and use this paragon.

    If I do not see these gears and blah blah then you do not get a chance for invite to show that there is more than one way to win.

    I mean no disrespect to those that have done ToMM or ZC.
    I know that SOMETIMES there is some truth to what they are saying, but there is just as much BS,

    I mean have any of you even tried doing Zariel with Legion weapons? HELL even hellfire ones?
    I am guessing thats a big fat NO since 90% of the server cant even get legions.
    So this assumption of MUST have Lionhearts is complete nonsense.
    Maybe if you have no skill, and are nothing but a meta copy of someone else's build then you have no hope without Lionhearts.
    But there are plenty of people out there that are more than capable without needing BiS (cough --- mostly someone opinion only, your BiS may be my junk. case in point Orc Set... never liked that stupid set granted most times i ran stuff bosses were being burned in 1min or less making that set mostly useless)


    God forbid it takes 5 minutes longer to run a dungeon because someone is not wearing the "right" gear.

    I'm not familiar with what people ask for Zariel, but if you have objection to any requirement why not make the group?
    The game itself doesn't force specific items or builds or whatever, yes there is minimum damage you must be able to take, but how to deal with it is also up to the you, mitigation, hp or any solution.

    So with plenty people around with the same notion why not just group up and do it? (I'm not sarcastic).

    btw, while we can look at situational best items, for the group, for the level and so on where what is considered "BiS" will not be the best option, BiS is usually referred as absolute "what is the best composition of all the possible compositions conceivable"

    Besides the point, but not sure why Orcus will be useless in 1min fight.

    Then clearly you have no idea what Orcus set did. I do not want to turn this into a hijacking ... so keep the topic on the content at hand.

    But just to clarify ... in order to gain a "significant" enough damage boost a boss needed to have lower HP. say for the purposes of the argument < 50% HP. If a boss fight lasts 30s then you have little to no time where that even happens. Most of the time after 50% bosses were being 1,2,3 shotted and its becomes a matter of HE WHO HIT FIRST HIT MOST.
    Codg is much like that these days. DPS charts in there mean very little as its all about HE WHO BUFF UP AT THE RIGHT TIME and plant at wizard location, hit the boss/wizard hard first will be on top most of the time.

    As far as making my own group goes I will if need be. I have no worries, nor do I need to rush.
    That does not change my original point about peoples attitudes.

    Yes, I apologize, I clearly lack understanding in the basic game mechanics, perhaps you can point me to a resource to brush up on it?

    Because Orcus is not used today, looking at pre m16, a 1 minute is relatively slow to the times and an exact example where orcus will average out, a dps will have multiple dailies and constant rotation with low CD.

    In a "BiS" group where a boss could have been 'one phased' or 'one shot' which is one rotation, it still not a single hit, and if the first hit doesn't take any advantage, the second will, and the last should be bellow 50%. At even 10% gain for those hits, it was still the best option.

    I've also heard people used a combatlog to check it vs the alternatives in various real game scenarios.
  • krymkackrymkac Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    Tomm is already way easier than it was on release. Barbarians, rangers & warlocks have received a substantial buff, dps clerics remain crazy strong, constitution has been finally fixed so you can rock 500k hp on a dps\heal class with little effort, tanks due to the same fix can equip older debuff sets & still rock 1 mil hp. New weapons, even the ones from the store are far cry from what we had to run with back in the days. No one asking lionheart to remain bis. Its already isnt since celestial set has been introduced. No need to make the trial any easier tbh. I mean look at some older content like cradle of nine gods... They made it so you no longer can die permanently if you fall down. Same with 2nd boss within the spellplague caverns dungeon. And it feels pathetic. Like players are being treated like a brainless babies than need to be handheld through content. Personally i dont want that to happen to tomm. As for Zariel... ppl asking for dps with lionheart because you need the set to complete it. Plain and simple. There are 2 dps checks and the 2nd one in phase 4 you simply wont pass unless all 6 dps are top notch. I suppose you could make 5 clerics 1 hr (for commanding shot) party & still do it with burnished or one of the newer sets. Gather you friends & go for it i suppose. Also lionheart set is sort of insurance that the person wearing it at the very least survived few tomm runs & can play in a group. As opposed to some braindead grinding of maps in solo questing zones.
  • krymkackrymkac Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited July 2020

    How is it that running everything up to tomm is being downplayed as not team content and the only real team content is tomm or zariel?

    Because when compared to tomm & zariel any ther content in neverwinter is a complete joke. Mechanic-wise Zariel is actually easier imo. The incoming dmg that comes in millions & harsh dps checks is what makes it harder. Some interesting mechanics here & there in lomm\ic\spellplagues\tong but overwhole all we had till mod 17 was tank & spank & "hit it till it dies" pve.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 280 Arc User
    TOMM isnt even that hard by MMO standards, its about as hard mechanically as the easiest challenging content in FF14.

    I am also against nerfing it. content like this tends to nerf itself over time as people get better gear. no need at all for nerfs.
  • elderislt#1066 elderislt Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    gradii said:

    TOMM isnt even that hard by MMO standards, its about as hard mechanically as the easiest challenging content in FF14.

    I am also against nerfing it. content like this tends to nerf itself over time as people get better gear. no need at all for nerfs.

    almost each mod have end game conten, witch not supose to be nerfed, wat the hell thei did with CODG... now all wat i do in game just go tomm, sametime citadel,rtq redq, same avernus HAMSTER stuff :D becose all old dangeon its just to much easy and boring, you dont need know mecha in CODG, or tong, or another dangeon, just rush and kill them all...
    BABY ZARIEL.... 270k base HUNTER
  • regpeiregpei Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited July 2020

    > @krymkac said:

    > (Quote)

    > Because when compared to tomm & zariel any ther content in neverwinter is a complete joke. Mechanic-wise Zariel is actually easier imo. The incoming dmg that comes in millions & harsh dps checks is what makes it harder. Some interesting mechanics here & there in lomm\ic\spellplagues\tong but overwhole all we had till mod 17 was tank & spank & "hit it till it dies" pve.



    personally i hope for more tank and spank dungeons in the future, that was where the fun was at....theres nothing fun about having to spend 30 hours (nearly 3 days) just to learn how to beat up some homeless bum.

    Well you have 12 tank and spank dungeons and 4 trials. We have 2 hard trials. If they're looking to balance the game we're due for 12 HARD dungeons and 2 more HARD trials.

    I see new faces in tomm everyday. I see new people get their weapons almost everyday. That community is growing, those who are finishing it are moving on to Zariel as I would expect progression to go! I suspect Cryptic also see the flood of new people completing tomm, so I hope it stays and let the gear make it easier as time goes on!
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,254 Arc User
    Around 90% of the playerbase(at least) is not using ToMM nor ZC because it is too much trouble training for it/requires too much gear. Basically bad cost/benefit.

    To me making something like ToMM/ZC is a massive waste of resources that Cryptic rather should have spent on making more available content for their main body of customers.

  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,205 Arc User
    regpei said:



    Well you have 12 tank and spank dungeons and 4 trials. We have 2 hard trials. If they're looking to balance the game we're due for 12 HARD dungeons and 2 more HARD trials.

    They're looking to balance the classes. Not the game.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User

    > @tom#6998 said:

    > (Quote)

    > there also hasnt been a post by the devs which support the stuff you are saying.

    > Run it with whatever setup you like. And if you dont want to do it, dont do it. No need to complain about it.



    i said that lionheart was over a year old and people need to just get over it, it wont be BIS forever. then i gave my opinion on why lionheart did not need to be buffed (in reply to someone elses post about it being buffed) and then I was asked if i had completed tomm, i explained why i hadn't and that i have no desire to complete it.

    where do you get this idea that i'm just complaining?

    I'm merely expressing my personal opinion on the subject that was already being discussed.

    > @tassedethe13 said:

    > @azmerella#6394


    maybe some people don't want to spend 30 hours to learn how to beat up some homeless guy for 15 mins?

    I certainly don't, and won't.

    this does sound like complaining to me, if you dont want to put in the effort, dont do it, but dont sit here and complain that it requires effort to do something.

  • demarw2#2749 demarw2 Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    In my opinion it is good like it is now. TOMM should not be buffed or nerfed. It should not be changed. By time it will get easier. Because new gear and new weapons will increase damage dealt. And in two or three modules TOMM will be like Demogorgon or CoDG now.

    The buff to LH weapons was also good. They should not get buffed or nerfed again. They are pretty good balanced. Maybe only Celestial set bonus should be buffed/changed a bit, because many classes could not benefit of it.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,254 Arc User
    edited August 2020
    greywynd said:

    regpei said:



    Well you have 12 tank and spank dungeons and 4 trials. We have 2 hard trials. If they're looking to balance the game we're due for 12 HARD dungeons and 2 more HARD trials.

    They're looking to balance the classes. Not the game.
    Game decisions should be made based on what can attract the highest number of players and generate income for Cryptic.
    Basically if players enjoy the game and many play, income will follow.

    I strongly doubt ToMM/ZC was a wise way to spend resources with that objective in mind.

    The split it sets up between the have's and have-not's is not good for game either.
  • milkyguymilkyguy Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 28 Arc User
    > @krymkac said:
    > constitution has been finally fixed so you can rock 500k hp on a dps\heal class with little effort,

    I will wonder what sort of little effort you have to spend to get to 500k HP. Would you please kindly elaborate those mentioned effort?
  • elderislt#1066 elderislt Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    milkyguy said:

    > @krymkac said:

    > constitution has been finally fixed so you can rock 500k hp on a dps\heal class with little effort,



    I will wonder what sort of little effort you have to spend to get to 500k HP. Would you please kindly elaborate those mentioned effort?

    now wat you need to get 500k hp, is war trieraptor, ar more max radiant in defensle slot
    BABY ZARIEL.... 270k base HUNTER
  • krymkackrymkac Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited August 2020
    milkyguy said:

    > @krymkac said:

    > constitution has been finally fixed so you can rock 500k hp on a dps\heal class with little effort,



    I will wonder what sort of little effort you have to spend to get to 500k HP. Would you please kindly elaborate those mentioned effort?

    Companions for instance. Plenty give hit point + offensive\defensive stats. For example, deepcrow hatchling (8k power)\raptor (up to 10k power)\energon (32k hp)\iron golem (16k hp 2k defense)\crystal golem (16k hp 2k power)\zentharim warlock (16k hp 4k ca) set up rogue\ranger\wizard\warlock dps gives you 80k hp while still keeping a decent power bonus. If you have a set of 3 journals from tales event thats another 21k hp. Clerics have 2 utility companion slots so can use both enegon & alpha compy for ultimate power\hp combo. Radiant or brutal enchantments in defensive slots, hit points boons, up to 10k hp on your offhand weapon vs 2500 power. Might not look a "little effort" per say but we are talking endgame players here. Before the constitution fix we pretty much had to use hellfire pit overloads (+5% hp), journals, hit point armor kits, 25-50k hp mount bonus, some hp insignias & metallic dragonborn race to even scratch 500k hp. All that over the top of the companions set up above and more. Thats a Zariel set up though, for tomm 400k hp is enough and way more accessible.
  • milkyguymilkyguy Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 28 Arc User
    > @krymkac said:
    > (Quote)
    > Might not look a "little effort" per say but we are talking endgame players here.

    So around 10 million ADs or more to reach the said amount.
    I do appreciate the explanation. Not saying it's impossible to reach what you described, but unless you pay money/know how to play the market or do both, it's definitely not little effort for general players.
  • winteranestiwinteranesti Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    edited August 2020

    Around 90% of the playerbase(at least) is not using ToMM nor ZC because it is too much trouble training for it/requires too much gear. Basically bad cost/benefit.

    To me making something like ToMM/ZC is a massive waste of resources that Cryptic rather should have spent on making more available content for their main body of customers.

    I agreed with you completely. Tomm needs a nerf. These end game trials are boring unlike dungeons. I love the classic dungeons. The trials are just a avoid moving pattern in which the rewards are not rewarding. Tomm old now by gaming standards and needs to be nerfed to allow the next level of not so end game players to try their lluck. I have already watched so many players give up after months of frustration. I have personally witnessed people leave my alliance to be carried by end game poaching level 20 guilds who then did not make good with promises of these weapons causing these players to quit the game. The trials do nothing but ruin lower level guilds who cannot carry people in these trials. These trial content's are creating a bigger rift of the has and has nots in this game its not even funny. I can point out the channels and tell the people to go for it, but they want to run with the alliance. If your guild is too low, its punished. If you want to make low level guilds just as relevant as end game 20, it failed. If you want casual players who work 60-80 a week jobs and can't afford more than a few hours a week then you failed. People have real lives and the ones Cryptic is listening to too many people who probably don't have jobs, or not much of a life, or they get carried by players who have more time to do the content for them. I guarantee if those players worked as hard in real life to get somewhere as you would be better off than the trials. Another option is to allow the weapons to be unbound so these die hard players can sell to casuals the BIS weapons or make them available in the Zen Store for casuals who don't have the time, but have the money. This would spread out the weapons to more like 60% or more of the player base until those who can afford the rate of the weapons can get it off the auction house or using Zen which is a cash win for cryptic. I keep saying over and over again how much I see this game loose players based on not caring about the 90% of the player base vs the 10%. Maybe do this..listen to the only paying customers who put in over $5,000 or more and see people scream, rant, and rave how unfair that is. Its whats happening now but in a different format. Another option is create levels of the same content..easy for starting players, standard, and elite. All rewarding tokens towards weapon set. Only the higher tiers offer something a bit more that will help players jump from tier to tier. Get weapon set on easy, jump to standard for more tokens towards gear, go to elite for a chance at something really challenging. Be inclusive, not exclusive. Really consider the entire player base when you make this stuff. You want to make this game casual and to not be able to tell a vet from a new player..well take this stuff into consideration.
    Post edited by winteranesti on
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 485 Arc User
    Content like ToMM is beneficial for the game and I believe that its difficulty has to be maintained.
    I can cite IC as an example, it was relatively difficult content, but today it is already possible to load someone weaker, which I think is bad for the game, since you get equipment that makes you move faster than you should.

    This is the opinion of a player who can call himself a veteran and who never submitted ToMM.
  • clericalistclericalist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 595 Arc User

    Around 90% of the playerbase(at least) is not using ToMM nor ZC because it is too much trouble training for it/requires too much gear. Basically bad cost/benefit.

    To me making something like ToMM/ZC is a massive waste of resources that Cryptic rather should have spent on making more available content for their main body of customers.

    Agree with this, except that perhaps that the 90% is more like 99% of the player base is not doing TOMM or Zariel. Whatever the exact number is, it is clearly too restrictive and shutting out too many players. One cannot argue that one needs new challenging content, that motivates players to improve, when the content is so incredibly exclusive. This is not the 100 Olympic sprints, where only a very tiny group should qualify, this is a free to play MMO, and it is also a Dungeons and Dragons themed MMO in case you forgot, when people do Dungeons and Dragons content even at the highest levels they don't expect only a very small fraction to ever triumph.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User

    tom#6998 said:

    > @tom#6998 said:

    > (Quote)

    > there also hasnt been a post by the devs which support the stuff you are saying.

    > Run it with whatever setup you like. And if you dont want to do it, dont do it. No need to complain about it.



    i said that lionheart was over a year old and people need to just get over it, it wont be BIS forever. then i gave my opinion on why lionheart did not need to be buffed (in reply to someone elses post about it being buffed) and then I was asked if i had completed tomm, i explained why i hadn't and that i have no desire to complete it.

    where do you get this idea that i'm just complaining?

    I'm merely expressing my personal opinion on the subject that was already being discussed.

    > @tassedethe13 said:

    > @azmerella#6394


    maybe some people don't want to spend 30 hours to learn how to beat up some homeless guy for 15 mins?

    I certainly don't, and won't.

    this does sound like complaining to me, if you dont want to put in the effort, dont do it, but dont sit here and complain that it requires effort to do something.

    get off me. you are the most toxic elitist ive ever seen ingame. i remember back in mod ~14 you were running CR and wouldnt let anyone in the team unless they had masterwork 3. people like you are why this game is in a bad spot.
    im pretty sure i have never met you before, i dont and did never demand any special items for CR, or any other dungeon. I have no clue whom you are mistaking me with, but im definitly not the person you think i am.
  • krymkackrymkac Member Posts: 210 Arc User

    milkyguy said:

    > @krymkac said:

    > constitution has been finally fixed so you can rock 500k hp on a dps\heal class with little effort,



    I will wonder what sort of little effort you have to spend to get to 500k HP. Would you please kindly elaborate those mentioned effort?

    around 50 million AD.
    you need at least, 50 boons to cap HP from boons, radiant enchantments in all defense slots at at least rank 12, nearly all 15 legendary prosperity insignias, 4/5 companions at max rank (legendary) that have HP as the equip effect. HP mount (25k will work), and also you need to use guild HP boon.

    its so easy (not)
    Again tomm & zariel both are meant for endgame players. Why when calculating the cost you take a naked hobo that has nothing as a starting point? New players with no gear have other things to do. Getting those boon points for starters. Radiants have been bis for pve content since mod 16. Same for power pets. Maxed out guilds isnt exactly a rare sight either.
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