DO NOT NERF TOMM

13

Comments

  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User

    tom#6998 said:

    tom#6998 said:

    > @tom#6998 said:

    > (Quote)

    > there also hasnt been a post by the devs which support the stuff you are saying.

    > Run it with whatever setup you like. And if you dont want to do it, dont do it. No need to complain about it.



    i said that lionheart was over a year old and people need to just get over it, it wont be BIS forever. then i gave my opinion on why lionheart did not need to be buffed (in reply to someone elses post about it being buffed) and then I was asked if i had completed tomm, i explained why i hadn't and that i have no desire to complete it.

    where do you get this idea that i'm just complaining?

    I'm merely expressing my personal opinion on the subject that was already being discussed.

    > @tassedethe13 said:

    > @azmerella#6394


    maybe some people don't want to spend 30 hours to learn how to beat up some homeless guy for 15 mins?

    I certainly don't, and won't.

    this does sound like complaining to me, if you dont want to put in the effort, dont do it, but dont sit here and complain that it requires effort to do something.

    get off me. you are the most toxic elitist ive ever seen ingame. i remember back in mod ~14 you were running CR and wouldnt let anyone in the team unless they had masterwork 3. people like you are why this game is in a bad spot.
    im pretty sure i have never met you before, i dont and did never demand any special items for CR, or any other dungeon. I have no clue whom you are mistaking me with, but im definitly not the person you think i am.
    ok, regardless of that, get off me...,you aren't the barbarian Natsu? If not then I sincerely apologize
    i never had a barbarian named Natsu...
  • tassedethe13
    tassedethe13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    @gabrieldourden I was the one who said it needs at least 30 hours of training. That's from what I had to do to learn, and after I tried to teach to some of my alliance, which took a little more than 30 hours for everybody, but now they teach to other people and so on, and more and more people are able to get their weapons because they see friends with weapons, ask them how did they get their weapons, and the answer is simply "Come to training, learn mechanics and it will be OK".

    Is the percentage of player base able to get weapon important ? Absolutely not imo.
    Is the increased number of people training and learning and improving themselves important ? Yes, still imo.

    TOMM, and Zariel, are end game goals to achieve.
    Some players will want to reach it, and try to do so even if it take time, and succeed.
    Some players will come to one training expecting being carried, failed miserably ( which is normal on 1st attempt ), take a big slap on the face and never come again.
    Some players will not do anything and complain that only 1% can do it, that's bad for game yada yada....

    But you know, I don't think this is bad for games, because end game players will spend to get the last shiny companion, mount, and zen spender will open lockboxes to sell to them. The numbers of scrolls, wards, health stones, is important too, so more zen spent.
    The endgame player wanabee will spend a lot more too.

    Lot of people think about endgame players as elitist pricks, but in fact who give to the community guides, builds, tips and trick, help with training ? That's them.
    And the only thing they ask, is people getting the correct stats, and doing the mechanic properly, and being friendly.
  • gabrieldourden
    gabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User

    @gabrieldourden I was the one who said it needs at least 30 hours of training. That's from what I had to do to learn, and after I tried to teach to some of my alliance, which took a little more than 30 hours for everybody, but now they teach to other people and so on, and more and more people are able to get their weapons because they see friends with weapons, ask them how did they get their weapons, and the answer is simply "Come to training, learn mechanics and it will be OK".

    Is the percentage of player base able to get weapon important ? Absolutely not imo.
    Is the increased number of people training and learning and improving themselves important ? Yes, still imo.

    TOMM, and Zariel, are end game goals to achieve.
    Some players will want to reach it, and try to do so even if it take time, and succeed.
    Some players will come to one training expecting being carried, failed miserably ( which is normal on 1st attempt ), take a big slap on the face and never come again.
    Some players will not do anything and complain that only 1% can do it, that's bad for game yada yada....

    But you know, I don't think this is bad for games, because end game players will spend to get the last shiny companion, mount, and zen spender will open lockboxes to sell to them. The numbers of scrolls, wards, health stones, is important too, so more zen spent.
    The endgame player wanabee will spend a lot more too.

    Lot of people think about endgame players as elitist pricks, but in fact who give to the community guides, builds, tips and trick, help with training ? That's them.
    And the only thing they ask, is people getting the correct stats, and doing the mechanic properly, and being friendly.

    I don't know what to believe as nobody of us has hard data (only Cryptic has them). Anyway looking at what they have been doing recently I think that that type of content (Tomm, Zariel) is probably not that successful from a financial point of view as they seem to be steering away from it. That's the only thing I wanted to say. I have personally nothing against endgame players, I was one of them until SKT (I was one of the 5 players alive at the end of the first successful run at Master Svardborg), but my feeling is that they represent only a small percentage of the game and are probably not the main source of income for Cryptic.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • tassedethe13
    tassedethe13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    I'm not part of those who tested TOMM in the first instance, but they said that some classes need some buff, this is them who found out the wrong damage formula, not cryptic.
    This is still them who make the guides on tomm, on damage formulas, and giave a lot of feedback to cryptic.
    You can't blame them for the rework of classes and the underperforming of some dps classes, that's not right...

    You can be jealous of the loots they sold, but at the time there was a german team who not beta tested it who trained of preview and succeed in beating TOMM, should someone who succeed be the target of your hate ?
    That was the first time a trial needed some training, and only 2 teams took it seriously from the start, followed by numerous other teams the weeks after.

    For Zariel, a lot more teams started earlier the training, because they knew that it will require some training to beat Zariel, and as a result a lot more people succeed beating Zariel at start than TOMM.

    Please do not mix what the dev do, and what the player do.


  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited August 2020
    Few things,

    First - I didn't made fortune from rings, nor finished it early or whatever, and yet I was and is one of those that saying that unbound loot can be one of the few things that can fix the economy. Unbound loot will erase AD through AH, and more importantly create direct incentive for people to convert ZEN to AD. The issue is that some other easy to do conditions need to apply, which could have been easily done, but they were not.
    It is also a good incentive for players to do content, without generating AD via RAD.

    There is beyond person gain or inability to gain of a player or a subgroup - and it's the whole economy and game health.

    It is also players choice to pay sums for items. I wouldn't and didn't buy rings for millions, nor should anyone else, and it is always the players choice and what sets the price via supply and demand.

    The only reason you managed to gear up in Tong like you describe is because it had unbound loot.

    Second - There are only two ways a loot item can have value, low supply or large demand. In Tong it was both. The initial price of those marks was a million or so, and dropped down to hundreds of thousands when more people completed it, stabilizing at about 100k for a while.

    So going back to the point, either the item will have low RNG in easy content, or it will have okish rng in very hard content. Otherwise the loot has no economy value. So pick your poison running the same HAMSTER thousands of time until a person can do it in their sleep and hope to get the item, or spend the time training and improving until managing to complete it. End result is the same, time spent vs loot. I'll prefer the second, I've slept enough during ToS repetitions.


    Last but not least - There are a lot assertion about stuff, about percents, and how closed beta works, and so much more. Where always those numbers come from, 1%, 90% or whatever? I know people from several large alliances (the major) and somehow my impression differs. But more importantly I've been in a couple of those closed beta, and I have no clue where those "facts" about who says what and how it works come from.
  • gradii
    gradii Member Posts: 280 Arc User

    Content like ToMM is beneficial for the game and I believe that its difficulty has to be maintained.
    I can cite IC as an example, it was relatively difficult content, but today it is already possible to load someone weaker, which I think is bad for the game, since you get equipment that makes you move faster than you should.

    This is the opinion of a player who can call himself a veteran and who never submitted ToMM.

    No, altering existing content to "maintain" difficulty is the act of only the most unqualified terrible excuses for game developers.

    Aside from level scaling, the content itself should not be nerfed, as players get better gear it will become easier on its own.
  • reg1981
    reg1981 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,410 Arc User

    how is it you just mention something to the staff here and get people removed? thats some crazy pull you got, why dont you come find me IRL.

    wow LOL Cash me outside how bow dat
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,365 Arc User
    The fact that we are having this discussion at all is solid evidence that ZC and ToMM are a less than successful approach to providing high-end content.

    Content need to be learnable by 'on the job training', running it a few times in the production environment. High dps and healing requirements are fine, those generally are gear/rotation related and should not need excessive training.

    As an example, TIC is working well. Some mechanics, but not more than it can be explained to new people during runs. Beyond that TIC challenge comes from dps and heal requirements.

    TIC is actually getting too easy now, so it would be nice if we got the next level up, TIC style.
  • tassedethe13
    tassedethe13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User

    The fact that we are having this discussion at all is solid evidence that ZC and ToMM are a less than successful approach to providing high-end content.

    Content need to be learnable by 'on the job training', running it a few times in the production environment. High dps and healing requirements are fine, those generally are gear/rotation related and should not need excessive training.

    As an example, TIC is working well. Some mechanics, but not more than it can be explained to new people during runs. Beyond that TIC challenge comes from dps and heal requirements.

    TIC is actually getting too easy now, so it would be nice if we got the next level up, TIC style.

    For me TIC is a failure, nobody wans to run TIC, pretty useless, and loot system is bad because you run it 2-3 times by week to get boss loots until you get armor then never do it again.

    Everybody can do TIC, not everybody can do TOMM or Zariel, that's why we are having this discusion.
  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited August 2020

    The fact that we are having this discussion at all is solid evidence that ZC and ToMM are a less than successful approach to providing high-end content.

    Content need to be learnable by 'on the job training', running it a few times in the production environment. High dps and healing requirements are fine, those generally are gear/rotation related and should not need excessive training.

    As an example, TIC is working well. Some mechanics, but not more than it can be explained to new people during runs. Beyond that TIC challenge comes from dps and heal requirements.

    TIC is actually getting too easy now, so it would be nice if we got the next level up, TIC style.

    I distinctly remember there being many threads about the game being too easy, opened both by me and by others in the past. Is the, "fact that we had that discussion," also proof of that claim? Anyone can open a thread about any topic, just because there is a discussion around a topic, does not make it true. It just shows that a contention exists.
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,365 Arc User
    edited August 2020

    The fact that we are having this discussion at all is solid evidence that ZC and ToMM are a less than successful approach to providing high-end content.

    Content need to be learnable by 'on the job training', running it a few times in the production environment. High dps and healing requirements are fine, those generally are gear/rotation related and should not need excessive training.

    As an example, TIC is working well. Some mechanics, but not more than it can be explained to new people during runs. Beyond that TIC challenge comes from dps and heal requirements.

    TIC is actually getting too easy now, so it would be nice if we got the next level up, TIC style.

    For me TIC is a failure, nobody wans to run TIC, pretty useless, and loot system is bad because you run it 2-3 times by week to get boss loots until you get armor then never do it again.

    Everybody can do TIC, not everybody can do TOMM or Zariel, that's why we are having this discusion.
    And the problem is that ToMM and ZC are made so hard that a too small part of the player mass wants to do them.

    Spending valuable dev resources on something a so small part of the player mass want to use is a inefficient resource use.
    Putting the best gear in the game in content so few players want to use creates an unnecessary division in the player mass.

    Yes, there certainly are players that want to do ZC and ToMM and that would have left game without them, but if those resources were used on more available content it likely would have boosted the total player mass by much more than the loss of the small ToMM/ZC gang.

    The difficulty of TIC seems to be more on line with what most people will accept and try to play. That TIC loot makes it uninteresting to run is another discussion altogether.
  • arazith07
    arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,428 Arc User

    The fact that we are having this discussion at all is solid evidence that ZC and ToMM are a less than successful approach to providing high-end content.

    Content need to be learnable by 'on the job training', running it a few times in the production environment. High dps and healing requirements are fine, those generally are gear/rotation related and should not need excessive training.

    As an example, TIC is working well. Some mechanics, but not more than it can be explained to new people during runs. Beyond that TIC challenge comes from dps and heal requirements.

    TIC is actually getting too easy now, so it would be nice if we got the next level up, TIC style.

    For me TIC is a failure, nobody wans to run TIC, pretty useless, and loot system is bad because you run it 2-3 times by week to get boss loots until you get armor then never do it again.

    Everybody can do TIC, not everybody can do TOMM or Zariel, that's why we are having this discusion.
    And the problem is that ToMM and ZC are made so hard that a too small part of the player mass wants to do them.

    Spending valuable dev resources on something a so small part of the player mass want to use is a inefficient resource use.
    Putting the best gear in the game in content so few players want to use creates an unnecessary division in the player mass.

    Yes, there certainly are players that want to do ZC and ToMM and that would have left game without them, but if those resources were used on more available content it likely would have boosted the total player mass by much more than the loss of the small ToMM/ZC gang.

    The difficulty of TIC seems to be more on line with what most people will accept and try to play. That TIC loot makes it uninteresting to run is another discussion altogether.
    You are looking at the short term here, in the long term, this type of content will have more relevance than the majority of all the other content aimed at mid game players that only sees 1 or 2 mods before it becomes a brain dead random dungeon. ToMM is already starting to see a wider audience as other gear becomes easier to get. M19 brought better weapon sets that are not as powerful as what is found in ToMM but is still much better than what you could get before. This alone lowers the skill level needed to complete the content and ToMM becomes a stepping stone towards ZC being more accessible.
  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    The fact that we are having this discussion at all is solid evidence that ZC and ToMM are a less than successful approach to providing high-end content.

    Content need to be learnable by 'on the job training', running it a few times in the production environment. High dps and healing requirements are fine, those generally are gear/rotation related and should not need excessive training.

    As an example, TIC is working well. Some mechanics, but not more than it can be explained to new people during runs. Beyond that TIC challenge comes from dps and heal requirements.

    TIC is actually getting too easy now, so it would be nice if we got the next level up, TIC style.

    For me TIC is a failure, nobody wans to run TIC, pretty useless, and loot system is bad because you run it 2-3 times by week to get boss loots until you get armor then never do it again.

    Everybody can do TIC, not everybody can do TOMM or Zariel, that's why we are having this discusion.
    And the problem is that ToMM and ZC are made so hard that a too small part of the player mass wants to do them.

    Spending valuable dev resources on something a so small part of the player mass want to use is a inefficient resource use.
    Putting the best gear in the game in content so few players want to use creates an unnecessary division in the player mass.

    Yes, there certainly are players that want to do ZC and ToMM and that would have left game without them, but if those resources were used on more available content it likely would have boosted the total player mass by much more than the loss of the small ToMM/ZC gang.

    The difficulty of TIC seems to be more on line with what most people will accept and try to play. That TIC loot makes it uninteresting to run is another discussion altogether.
    You are looking at the short term here, in the long term, this type of content will have more relevance than the majority of all the other content aimed at mid game players that only sees 1 or 2 mods before it becomes a brain dead random dungeon. ToMM is already starting to see a wider audience as other gear becomes easier to get. M19 brought better weapon sets that are not as powerful as what is found in ToMM but is still much better than what you could get before. This alone lowers the skill level needed to complete the content and ToMM becomes a stepping stone towards ZC being more accessible.
    I think that most non-TOMM ready players would be more willing to accept a 5-year-plan look at new content, if it were not the only new content that they were getting.
  • arazith07
    arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,428 Arc User

    arazith07 said:

    The fact that we are having this discussion at all is solid evidence that ZC and ToMM are a less than successful approach to providing high-end content.

    Content need to be learnable by 'on the job training', running it a few times in the production environment. High dps and healing requirements are fine, those generally are gear/rotation related and should not need excessive training.

    As an example, TIC is working well. Some mechanics, but not more than it can be explained to new people during runs. Beyond that TIC challenge comes from dps and heal requirements.

    TIC is actually getting too easy now, so it would be nice if we got the next level up, TIC style.

    For me TIC is a failure, nobody wans to run TIC, pretty useless, and loot system is bad because you run it 2-3 times by week to get boss loots until you get armor then never do it again.

    Everybody can do TIC, not everybody can do TOMM or Zariel, that's why we are having this discusion.
    And the problem is that ToMM and ZC are made so hard that a too small part of the player mass wants to do them.

    Spending valuable dev resources on something a so small part of the player mass want to use is a inefficient resource use.
    Putting the best gear in the game in content so few players want to use creates an unnecessary division in the player mass.

    Yes, there certainly are players that want to do ZC and ToMM and that would have left game without them, but if those resources were used on more available content it likely would have boosted the total player mass by much more than the loss of the small ToMM/ZC gang.

    The difficulty of TIC seems to be more on line with what most people will accept and try to play. That TIC loot makes it uninteresting to run is another discussion altogether.
    You are looking at the short term here, in the long term, this type of content will have more relevance than the majority of all the other content aimed at mid game players that only sees 1 or 2 mods before it becomes a brain dead random dungeon. ToMM is already starting to see a wider audience as other gear becomes easier to get. M19 brought better weapon sets that are not as powerful as what is found in ToMM but is still much better than what you could get before. This alone lowers the skill level needed to complete the content and ToMM becomes a stepping stone towards ZC being more accessible.
    I think that most non-TOMM ready players would be more willing to accept a 5-year-plan look at new content, if it were not the only new content that they were getting.
    If they aren't ready for ToMM, there is plenty of other content they have yet to complete...
  • gradii
    gradii Member Posts: 280 Arc User
    As far as mechanics, a lot of FF14 players would consider ToMM easy, compared to that games "endgame" offerings. I think the NW community has just got too used to content being very light on mechanics.
  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    arazith07 said:

    The fact that we are having this discussion at all is solid evidence that ZC and ToMM are a less than successful approach to providing high-end content.

    Content need to be learnable by 'on the job training', running it a few times in the production environment. High dps and healing requirements are fine, those generally are gear/rotation related and should not need excessive training.

    As an example, TIC is working well. Some mechanics, but not more than it can be explained to new people during runs. Beyond that TIC challenge comes from dps and heal requirements.

    TIC is actually getting too easy now, so it would be nice if we got the next level up, TIC style.

    For me TIC is a failure, nobody wans to run TIC, pretty useless, and loot system is bad because you run it 2-3 times by week to get boss loots until you get armor then never do it again.

    Everybody can do TIC, not everybody can do TOMM or Zariel, that's why we are having this discusion.
    And the problem is that ToMM and ZC are made so hard that a too small part of the player mass wants to do them.

    Spending valuable dev resources on something a so small part of the player mass want to use is a inefficient resource use.
    Putting the best gear in the game in content so few players want to use creates an unnecessary division in the player mass.

    Yes, there certainly are players that want to do ZC and ToMM and that would have left game without them, but if those resources were used on more available content it likely would have boosted the total player mass by much more than the loss of the small ToMM/ZC gang.

    The difficulty of TIC seems to be more on line with what most people will accept and try to play. That TIC loot makes it uninteresting to run is another discussion altogether.
    You are looking at the short term here, in the long term, this type of content will have more relevance than the majority of all the other content aimed at mid game players that only sees 1 or 2 mods before it becomes a brain dead random dungeon. ToMM is already starting to see a wider audience as other gear becomes easier to get. M19 brought better weapon sets that are not as powerful as what is found in ToMM but is still much better than what you could get before. This alone lowers the skill level needed to complete the content and ToMM becomes a stepping stone towards ZC being more accessible.
    I think that most non-TOMM ready players would be more willing to accept a 5-year-plan look at new content, if it were not the only new content that they were getting.
    If they aren't ready for ToMM, there is plenty of other content they have yet to complete...
    What percent of that content offers rewards which actually help in that progression. And no, Blue RP do not count.