A little off-topic: I know that I might be a special case, but I avoid challenges that require to be "experienced with scrolls".
It's a deviation from the topic but I've seen this mentioned enough times in various places that I wanted to comment.
There are no situations in the game that require a player to die/scroll in order to succeed. Any instances of this are either due to incorrect stats or strategy. Of course, there's always the possibility that a bug has caused something to malfunction.
I do not intend to argue about incorrect stats, strategy, or my inability to press buttons. And those "malfunctions"... lets leave it at that. Anyway, that requirement comes from the player-base. It is not about your programming, but about the players. If the difficulty reaches a certain level, you can't find many people willing to take you along without scrolls at your disposal. And the will to explain something? Even rarer. (again, I do not care - that content is too stressful for me anyway)
yes people expect you to scroll if you die but if you are playing correctly with the correct stats dying should not be unavoidable. although for the learning curve.. the scrolls are unavoidable. and the learning curve can be harsh in this game. I think I went thru about 500 scrolls learning codg. lol
There are no situations in the game that require a player to die/scroll in order to succeed. Any instances of this are either due to incorrect stats or strategy. Of course, there's always the possibility that a bug has caused something to malfunction.
yes people expect you to scroll if you die [in challenging content] but if you are playing correctly with the correct stats dying should not be unavoidable. although for the learning curve.. the scrolls are unavoidable. and the learning curve can be harsh in this game. I think I went thru about 500 scrolls learning codg. lol
Feedback Goal
To have better behaved people, change the dungeon rewards so that a res scroll use during the run means lesser rewards. To get the best rewards, people need to run without scrolls and hence shouldn't ever "bully" others into using them. Feedback Functionality
If the loot is an RNG scale then this should be a simple maths thing. The roll is unmodified if the run is completed with no scrolls. With scroll use the roll gets a negative modifier. Alternatively, you could do the opposite where no-scroll runs get a bonus modifier but the effect is the same.
Either way, when someone uses or is suggested to use a scroll then everyone knows that the run has decreased in value. Which is fine for a training run.
Risks & Concerns
This would likely devalue res scrolls. Oh, and I suspect I'm about to get flamed for this suggestion too. :P
Hey folks! Thank you to everyone who has participated so far. A special nod to @thefabricant for the extensive (but clear/bullet point) posting. It definitely highlights one of the aspects of the CDP – creating a broad topic in order to then distill it into priorities and subtopics! It provides an informative and constructive starting point for future discussions.
While people are participating in this discussion, I'd love it if folks could also keep in their back of the mind how they would divide this this topic into different ones while still keeping it a comprehensive discussion. For example, @krumple01 asked why should players feel all their progress is taken away after spending a lot of time and resources. This is a secondary theme that came up during the accessibility CDP discussion as well; it might be useful to be aware of recurrence of themes and if they should be their own topic or if they are naturally just embedded in multiple aspects of the game.
Goal: To enable the upgrade of old (trash) armor/weapons to a higher tier.
Functionality: Make it so that every new mod introduces an "upgrade" token that after much hard work (completion of the final dungeon for instance) could be used to upgrade any one gear item. This could be used to make one piece of equipment from the old mod more viable to equip (stats) and thus keep even the oldest of content relevant moving forward. Requiring many such tokens to upgrade a full set of armor/weapons for example, thus making the mixing and matching more fun/work. These tokens could be additive as in you will need to multiple tokens to upgrade one item from an old mod to make it current. For example elemental evil weapons to say an Ice wind dale ready one would require only one token, but the same weapon would require many steps and dungeon completions to make it viable as a mod 18 weapon with the stats to match, This could again make certain special weapon effects be fun to play with and variety is always a good thing.
Risks & Concerns: The programming to implement these changes would require that the different mods be put in a certain order to show the progression of said mods. Along with the amount of programming to make the stages of each piece of gear is daunting but IMO for the variety and replayability alone it would make the entire game fresh again. There will again be a certain "meta" that would be the BIS, but that has always been the case anyways.
In Conclusion: Once the token system is in place new mods could re-use the "old" token code thus making all old content as relevant as the new content.
@josephskyrim bully is an emotionally laden word to use here. No one is bullying u to use scrolls. Require and intimidate are 2 very different things. There are good reasons to require it in modern content. If u chase after a downed player the odds of the whole team going down are greatly increased and if u lose a person u may not finish
A little off-topic: I know that I might be a special case, but I avoid challenges that require to be "experienced with scrolls".
It's a deviation from the topic but I've seen this mentioned enough times in various places that I wanted to comment.
There are no situations in the game that require a player to die/scroll in order to succeed. Any instances of this are either due to incorrect stats or strategy. Of course, there's always the possibility that a bug has caused something to malfunction.
I do not intend to argue about incorrect stats, strategy, or my inability to press buttons. And those "malfunctions"... lets leave it at that. Anyway, that requirement comes from the player-base. It is not about your programming, but about the players. If the difficulty reaches a certain level, you can't find many people willing to take you along without scrolls at your disposal. And the will to explain something? Even rarer. (again, I do not care - that content is too stressful for me anyway)
Yeah, I'm kinda on the fence with the difficulty level of the latest Dungeon and Trial (TIC / TOMM), not everyone wants/likes content that is so difficult. I want clarify that by difficult I don't mean that it's complicated, I mean that you get one hit k/o'd if you're not a tank, dot's kill you in 1-3 seconds, requires maxed out everything to have a reasonable chance at success (like over $2k worth of in-game goods), etc. I feel pretty alienated right now, I just got my toon to levels that people would have accepted into TOMM when it was first released, but I don't have the EXP so people wont take me (as I am honest about needing training), which means I don't have my lionheart weapons yet and so my dps in TIC is subpar. All this leaves me feeling alienated and burned out trying. While this isn't directly due to the difficulty of the content, it is indirectly. Such difficult content leads to people not accepting new people into groups unless it's very clear you have already completed it, or have experience, and have maximum power levels (not stat caps, that's almost a given).
I've been working on my tank as people keep asking if I have one, so I tried tanking TIC 2nd boss today, but quickly realized that I'm going to need well over 600k hp for that, probably in the 800k-1 million range. I really feel like there's going to quickly be a meta for TIC, Ranged DPS, Healadin, Tank w/ > 800k hp, idk if fighter or paladin will do better as my paladin got the HAMSTER kicked out of him today it wasn't even funny, I felt like a Powrie going up against a 28k Hulk or a beast.
Though, sometimes I do enjoy sitting down and doing difficult things, but I usually enjoy that on my own, not when there are other people counting on me. I'm not saying there shouldn't be very difficult group content, it's just that I haven't really been accepted into a coherent end-game group that can handle such content, so I can't really enjoy anything other than old stuff, and can't really progress because all of that content, and the rewards it provides, are outdated and worthless.
I would be pretty happy never running ToMM if there was an alternative weapon set with equal item level and weapon damage, for example, a new MW weapon set that I could craft on my own. Please do this soon, please please please. Perhaps, I would feel more comfortable with running tomm if I had an alternative to lionheart weaps, it would certainly help with being accepted into a group if I had something better than burnished weaps.
I think the bar is too high in recent content to a certain extent, I think content shouldn't be barely surmountable with max'd out everything, but rather, with maxed out everything you should be able to feel somewhat powerful instead of like a rag doll. There should probably be some mechanism to increase the difficulty to "hardcore", i.e. k-team, and the content should be designed to work with this functionallity to increase chances at chase items, or even unlock potential to acquire chase items. But I think weapon/artifact sets should be more accessible to casual players (those with like r13-r14's and w/o a leg mount), with the exception of MW items, as that's a whole different type of gating.
@josephskyrim bully is an emotionally laden word to use here. No one is bullying u to use scrolls. Require and intimidate are 2 very different things. There are good reasons to require it in modern content. If u chase after a downed player the odds of the whole team going down are greatly increased and if u lose a person u may not finish
Apologies, it seems I did the perfect example of "trying to fix something I didn't quite understand". Hopefully Cryptic takes note to not do the same.
I know I said I would be jumping in today but it just wasn't possible due to today ending up being a very busy day for me. I should have more time tomorrow. All i would say is keep the ideas and thoughts coming. Whilst conversation about ideas is good I wouldn't drill to far down into any specific area just yet. We will do that as part of the second phase of this CDP.
Sorry I haven't engaged sooner and I am very much looking forward to doing so.
I mentioned this in the VIP CDP, but it could very easily translate into rewards progression as well.
Trade-in and Upgrade Vendors or Professions
When mod17 launched we were given upwards of 300+ pieces of companion equipment, most of which got turned into Gold or RP, and around 40 pieces of new shirts and pants. The only "guaranteed' piece of companion equipment we wanted was after completing the Stardock quest line to unlock Tower of the Mad Mage, but event that was only sort of what was wanted as we were only able to choose between the single-stat pieces instead of all available IL 1010 pieces.
Personally I spent months going after 1 particular piece of companion equipment with no success. 4 toons running daily ME's along with Stardock WE's and FE's, with each having a rune placed to get an Etching upon completion. Do the math and that's about 30 Etchings per week per toon, over about 3 months. We're talking well over 1000 Zok Boxes and didn't get the 1 piece of companion gear I was chasing. Got multiples of many IL 1010 pieces, but never the Critical Strike + Critical Avoidance piece.
Same goes for the Fragment Expeditions, so many Shirts and Pants, but only one chance a week and 4 levels of each type.
I'd suggest one of these options:
After you complete the Teachings of Zermithon or whatever the Stardock quest line is called in which you get the box containing your choice of companion equipment, make it a repeatable quest line. At completion you get a choice of a double stat companion gear piece or clothing of your choice. It keeps people invested in running the content while at the same time knowing that they're making progress towards the item(s) they're chasing.
In Professions add new tasks to that would allow you to change and upgrade gear. For example, if you wanted to change a piece of companion gear into a different piece, you'd need whatever the required reagents would be, along with 2 pieces of same IL companion gear. Again, it keeps people invested in running the content while at the same time knowing that they're making progress towards the item(s) they're chasing.
HR: Vretzen GWF: Vretzina OP: Vee DC: Evee CW: nezterV
> @mythdemeanour said: > Overview: > Make old mods worth while to revisit. > > Goal: > To enable the upgrade of old (trash) armor/weapons to a higher tier. > > Functionality: > Make it so that every new mod introduces an "upgrade" token that after much hard work (completion of the final dungeon for instance) could be used to upgrade any one gear item. This could be used to make one piece of equipment from the old mod more viable to equip (stats) and thus keep even the oldest of content relevant moving forward. Requiring many such tokens to upgrade a full set of armor/weapons for example, thus making the mixing and matching more fun/work. These tokens could be additive as in you will need to multiple tokens to upgrade one item from an old mod to make it current. For example elemental evil weapons to say an Ice wind dale ready one would require only one token, but the same weapon would require many steps and dungeon completions to make it viable as a mod 18 weapon with the stats to match, This could again make certain special weapon effects be fun to play with and variety is always a good thing. > > Risks & Concerns: > The programming to implement these changes would require that the different mods be put in a certain order to show the progression of said mods. Along with the amount of programming to make the stages of each piece of gear is daunting but IMO for the variety and replayability alone it would make the entire game fresh again. There will again be a certain "meta" that would be the BIS, but that has always been the case anyways. > > In Conclusion: > Once the token system is in place new mods could re-use the "old" token code thus making all old content as relevant as the new content.
Wouldn’t it be better if crafters were able to disassemble older gear to reuse the set/equip bonuses on new gear?
Elite Whaleboy
6
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
> @jmiller84 said: > I mentioned this in the VIP CDP, but it could very easily translate into rewards progression as well. > > Trade-in and Upgrade Vendors or Professions > > When mod17 launched we were given upwards of 300+ pieces of companion equipment, most of which got turned into Gold or RP, and around 40 pieces of new shirts and pants. The only "guaranteed' piece of companion equipment we wanted was after completing the Stardock quest line to unlock Tower of the Mad Mage, but event that was only sort of what was wanted as we were only able to choose between the single-stat pieces instead of all available IL 1010 pieces. > > Personally I spent months going after 1 particular piece of companion equipment with no success. 4 toons running daily ME's along with Stardock WE's and FE's, with each having a rune placed to get an Etching upon completion. Do the math and that's about 30 Etchings per week per toon, over about 3 months. We're talking well over 1000 Zok Boxes and didn't get the 1 piece of companion gear I was chasing. Got multiples of many IL 1010 pieces, but never the Critical Strike + Critical Avoidance piece. > > Same goes for the Fragment Expeditions, so many Shirts and Pants, but only one chance a week and 4 levels of each type. > > I'd suggest one of these options: > > After you complete the Teachings of Zermithon or whatever the Stardock quest line is called in which you get the box containing your choice of companion equipment, make it a repeatable quest line. At completion you get a choice of a double stat companion gear piece or clothing of your choice. It keeps people invested in running the content while at the same time knowing that they're making progress towards the item(s) they're chasing. > > In Professions add new tasks to that would allow you to change and upgrade gear. For example, if you wanted to change a piece of companion gear into a different piece, you'd need whatever the required reagents would be, along with 2 pieces of same IL companion gear. Again, it keeps people invested in running the content while at the same time knowing that they're making progress towards the item(s) they're chasing.
Definitely agree on this. Yesterday I was talking to a good wizard in our alliance and he's still chasing companions belts with defense and an offensive stat in order to bring defense to cap for Tomm and TIC.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
1
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
> I think the bar is too high in recent content to a certain extent, I think content shouldn't be barely surmountable with max'd out everything, but rather, with maxed out everything you should be able to feel somewhat powerful instead of like a rag doll. There should probably be some mechanism to increase the difficulty to "hardcore", i.e. k-team, and the content should be designed to work with this functionallity to increase chances at chase items, or even unlock potential to acquire chase items. But I think weapon/artifact sets should be more accessible to casual players (those with like r13-r14's and w/o a leg mount), with the exception of MW items, as that's a whole different type of gating.
In general I think that there should be different ways to achieve progression. Skill should be one as it is in Tomm now, time should be another one, crafting a third and so on... In the first mods BIS gear was an unbound drop in dungeons as well as something you could find in final chests, so you could either get it by beating difficult content (say Castle Never at the time) or by grinding AD to buy it at the auction. You could even offset bad RNG as you had the chance to sell the drops you didn't want to get AD to buy what you needed (I was very unlucky with RNG on my Royal Guard headpiece for my HR and finally bought it by selling an Avatar of War helm and using the AD to buy it). Then things changed and BIS weapons had to be crafted using bound drops in dungeons (in mod2, but also in SKT). Then the pendulum swinged again and we got pure grind in Cloaked Ascendancy, then RNG in Undermountain for Alabaster, then Lionguard gated behind completion of one specific dungeon now and I'm sure I forgot something else. There has never been a clear message to players about this stuff. Personally I liked the first approach more: a wide array of sellable unbound stuff spread over all content. You got what you were able to farm and could sell it to buy what you needed.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
I don't know enough about drop rates and specifics to talk about loot drops and gear progression so I'm going to stick with the basic rewards you get from campaigns.
FEEDBACK OVERVIEW
Streamline (PRIMARILY LEGACY) Campaign Rewards .
FEEDBACK GOAL
Reduce confusion and increase efficiency inn campaign progression, and Guild Advancement.
FUNCTIONALITY
Looking at the sheer volume of different currencies on the "Riches" Tab it is clear that there are simply too many. Introducing multiple currencies when new content drops is a reasonable practice, it allows variety in the rewards, and prevents fast farming for "chase" items and campaign completion. A limit on any one currency acts as an effective cap on campaign progress, while allowing continued farming for the lower currency. This is exemplified by the dual currency system in Barovia, with its simple "Omens" and "Barovian Coins" model.
But too many of the Legacy Campaigns have waaaay too many currencies.
At the time they were launched it probably made sense. At the time a Mod is launched it is obviously the most up to date, and will see the most ardent grinding and focus by players, so the variety of multiple currencies adds a layer of interest and goal achievement. But when those campaigns are years old, that variety becomes an albatross around newer players' necks, slowing down their progress when they need to be fast tracking toward the newer content.
The Well of Dragons is one of the worst examples of this. And brings me to the other part of the problem; Guild Mimic Contributions. Last week I was burning through some Legacy Campaign Quests for Sybella on one of my alts who had built up quite the collection of them. I completed 5. Since my Guild has just built a new structure and has moved on to another, our Treasures of Tyranny was seriously depleted. And we need 400'000 to get our Lumberyard to Rank 5. I switched the bonus currency on my character's Legacy Campaign rewards to Tyranny. Two of the Quests were Tyranny, so in effect I was about to get 7 rewards worth of Tyranny currencies. This was in addition to the 5 Well of Dragons quests I had completed in order to complete one of the Legacy quests... I cashed the quests in with Sybella, trotted over to the guild and dumped all the Tyranny currencies into the Mimic for a grand total of less than 10K. This is pitiful...
What I suggest is streamlining currencies in old campaigns.
Merge the existing multiple currencies into a maximum of two. Change the requirements to advance the campaign tree, so that tertiary currencies become the same as the initial.
Example on Icewind Dale;
Get rid of Dwarf Gold and Auril's Tears and just have a single "hard" currency, in addition to Konig Coin allowing Reputation to act as the top level metric to unlock Campaign Tasks/Boons and the new currency to open those tasks/boons. (I still think this is too many for such an old campaign, and it may even be better to also remove either Reputation or Konig Coin but... baby steps...)
Instead of needing a combination of Tears and Gold, just combine the current required number of multiple currencies into a total of the new currencies.
Simply unlocking the Dwarven Valley allows access to MORE of that one currency, barely making a jot of difference to the speed of advancement, (OK the second Boon would be a little easier to get...)
Continuing to use Icewind Dale as an example, we also have Kessell's Sigils and Black Ice. IF you want to bother spending 35'000 (ish) Sigils to get all the transmutes (Free Barovia or Undermountain gear renders it useless as anything else), that currency essentially becomes redundant. By the time you have enough to buy either of the pieces of artifact gear, you are (now we are many mods down the road) bound to have got something better.
Of course, that's not the end of it. Hidden in your Professions are MORE Icewind Dale currencies... If you want to use that stack of Black Ice, you also have to have a bunch of other stuff that drops from HEs.
So... Icewind Dale... in addition to the Reputation Unlock we have... Konig Coin Auril's Tear Dwarf Gold Kessels Sigil Black Ice Blackiron Ore Black Ice Band Black Ice Spine Black Ice Splinter Faceted Black Ice Fragment Black Ice Core Twisted Black Ice Fragment Captured Black Ice Chunk
Plus a couple of current Professions Resources, plus lesser versions of 6 overload enchantments.
ALL of those are listed in stores associated with IWD as "currencies". Yet ONLY Konig Coin, Dwarf Gold, and Auril's Tear count towards Guild Contributions.
Now I know, and most of the people currently playing know, that this is a hangover from the old Professions system when Black Ice was a Profession in its own right. But now it's not. So it needs sorting out.
I would suggest, in addition to merging Dwarf Gold and Auril's Tears, reduce the number of Black Ice "Crafting" currencies to at most two enhanced Black Ice ingredients (One "Lesser" one "Greater"), allowing people to choose to farm the overloads they want. Get rid of Kessel's Sigils and use Black Ice to buy the transmutes.
Also, and apply this to ALL Legacy Zones where Guild Contribution currencies can be farmed, (including any future changes) replace the currency drops that have been removed with Blue Guild Vouchers of the same type as are available in the "Siege of Neverwinter" Event. I know that there are people out there who will organise Guild and Alliance HE farms in legacy zones if those HEs drop blue vouchers. (I'm one of them) and for the likes of Sharanadar, (where there are no HEs) put them in the main quest givers rewards, and random drops in the three lair quests.
I could go on with every zone giving specific examples, but don't think I need to.
Remove defunct currencies and absorb their purpose into a smaller, manageable purse of coins.
Add Unbound Blue Guild Vouchers that relate to the Zone (where appropriate).
RISKS AND CONCERNS
I think that the main sticking point with this would be push back from that area of the Veteran player base who don't want things to be easier/faster for newer players than it was for them. Though I would like to point out to those players all the advantages that we had in terms of how much rAD we could convert and how easy it was to acquire it, "back in the day". So when they say that it's not fair suggesting that new players should get fast track access to VIP rewards without having to buy 12 ranks, I'd say, "Then let them have... let's say THREE years of character rAD caps, actual rAD on Invoke instead of bonus, and rAD Salvage, and see how you feel about that?" I used to regularly create 2 million AD a week without much effort, and was able to buy as much VIP as I wanted/needed because on XBox our economy (for now anyway) still works. I'd also point out that it was much easier to complete what are now Legacy Zones at the time they were launched because there was literally nothing more to do beyond them... they were the top end content. So farming HE's was a thing, now that's only a thing in Barovia (for Yester Hill) and Well of Dragons because people still need those Coffers for the weekly.
SUMMARY
Reduce the number of currencies in Legacy Campaign Zones to a manageable (understandable) level.
Adapt the stores to facilitate this.
Use the gap in defunct currency drops to award more useful Blue Vouchers (UNBOUND!!!!) that can be either used to donate to the Guild Mimic or sell on the AH
For me, one of the most stressing part of this game is its obsession with daily/weekly limits to just about everything in the game. ME's are a great example of it and this behavior has been prevalent in the past. In essence, the consequence is the feeling of doing a chore as part of your daily life. Most of us I believe are busier one day than other and would like to catch up on those specific days. However, this is not possible because the game assumes you have free time every day 24/7. In addition, this also limits gameplay and forces players to move onto other games after they have just completed their daily "chores". I have previously mentioned about the phenomena of endless progression, something always there to do (at least until next mod), which NW is in complete contradiction to.
This is a mixture of rewards and progression category but I have a simple currency that I personally believe people would love to grind. Once the loot chances of dungeon lockboxes are altered accordingly (preferable with dungeon difficulty tiers) then allowing players to grind REROLLs, would create an opportunity of endless progression. TOMM is an great example of it, taking into account all the pots, overloads, scrolls and etc, you really do not make profit unless you have rerolls or you grind the hell out of it.
Risks and Concerns People will be less inclined to play alts but i do not like the idea of forcing players to play alts to begin with.
> To enable the upgrade of old (trash) armor/weapons to a higher tier.
> Functionality:
> Make it so that every new mod introduces an "upgrade" token that after much hard work (completion of the final dungeon for instance) could be used to upgrade any one gear item. This could be used to make one piece of equipment from the old mod more viable to equip (stats) and thus keep even the oldest of content relevant moving forward. Requiring many such tokens to upgrade a full set of armor/weapons for example, thus making the mixing and matching more fun/work. These tokens could be additive as in you will need to multiple tokens to upgrade one item from an old mod to make it current. For example elemental evil weapons to say an Ice wind dale ready one would require only one token, but the same weapon would require many steps and dungeon completions to make it viable as a mod 18 weapon with the stats to match, This could again make certain special weapon effects be fun to play with and variety is always a good thing.
> Risks & Concerns:
> The programming to implement these changes would require that the different mods be put in a certain order to show the progression of said mods. Along with the amount of programming to make the stages of each piece of gear is daunting but IMO for the variety and replayability alone it would make the entire game fresh again. There will again be a certain "meta" that would be the BIS, but that has always been the case anyways.
> In Conclusion:
> Once the token system is in place new mods could re-use the "old" token code thus making all old content as relevant as the new content.
Wouldn’t it be better if crafters were able to disassemble older gear to reuse the set/equip bonuses on new gear?
IMO a crafting add-on could be used too (or in place of) especially if requiring the higher tier mod's dependent components. Either way i'm just looking for a way to make the old mods more than just a way to get some boons. Adding some spice to old content is always a good thing IMO.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
> I think the bar is too high in recent content to a certain extent, I think content shouldn't be barely surmountable with max'd out everything, but rather, with maxed out everything you should be able to feel somewhat powerful instead of like a rag doll. There should probably be some mechanism to increase the difficulty to "hardcore", i.e. k-team, and the content should be designed to work with this functionallity to increase chances at chase items, or even unlock potential to acquire chase items. But I think weapon/artifact sets should be more accessible to casual players (those with like r13-r14's and w/o a leg mount), with the exception of MW items, as that's a whole different type of gating.
In general I think that there should be different ways to achieve progression. Skill should be one as it is in Tomm now, time should be another one, crafting a third and so on...
In the first mods BIS gear was an unbound drop in dungeons as well as something you could find in final chests, so you could either get it by beating difficult content (say Castle Never at the time) or by grinding AD to buy it at the auction. You could even offset bad RNG as you had the chance to sell the drops you didn't want to get AD to buy what you needed (I was very unlucky with RNG on my Royal Guard headpiece for my HR and finally bought it by selling an Avatar of War helm and using the AD to buy it).
Then things changed and BIS weapons had to be crafted using bound drops in dungeons (in mod2, but also in SKT). Then the pendulum swinged again and we got pure grind in Cloaked Ascendancy, then RNG in Undermountain for Alabaster, then Lionguard gated behind completion of one specific dungeon now and I'm sure I forgot something else.
There has never been a clear message to players about this stuff. Personally I liked the first approach more: a wide array of sellable unbound stuff spread over all content. You got what you were able to farm and could sell it to buy what you needed.
That undermines the achievement of the people who beat ToMM and is strictly going against the idea of a good progression system. Not everyone needs to have every item and if they want the item, they should have to put in the work for it.
Feedback Overview: I am mostly a solo player that is very motivated by story and collection of things, so when I think of "rewards" I am thinking about what makes my personal experience feel engaging and fun. I will give feedback about each of the categories we were asked to consider from that personal perspective alone. I am reading and appreciating the other experiences expressed. Thank you.
Feedback Goal: Offering a non-technical viewpoint from a casual solo player.
Feedback Functionality: This is where I'll break this down into the requested feedback areas.
Reward Quality/Time Spent - I love all the game areas and stories, and enjoy going through the campaigns at first. The problem is that I hit some things like time gating, massive repetition, and required items that are hard to get as a solo person running through old content. The end result of such efforts can feel great on a story level, or even on the level of having a new transmute that shows that I've finished something. It can feel rather flat on the level of the functionality of the item really only being a transmute, small amount of RP, or small amount of currency. To make matters worse, I can't pay to expand the amount of transmutes that I can store in my library. I would like to be able to pay for more transmute space. I don't mind grinding or buying completion tokens for old campaigns, but would love to see some of those group-dependent drops removed from the items necessary to progress.
Existing and New Reward Categories- I like boons, and I enjoy earning them through campaigns. I love interesting items that can work as transmutes, but feel some of the obsolete equipment takes too much grinding for the result. (Collecting motes for the Elemental Evil campaign stuff, for example.) I feel pretty marginal about the lockboxes lately, as they have RP (which is useful) but not much else. One minor tweak that would make them feel better is to make RP account bound, as folks have suggested earlier. I run a lot of alts, and that would be a big bonus.
Rewards Through Progress Leveling- I sort of felt a major dropoff in fun as my characters failed to move their class and race story arcs forward. Dropped equipment starts out fun and relevant, but then ends up feeling weirdly trivial over time. I do appreciate equipment that has small flavor text, and items that mark encounters (as long as those piece of equipment have something distinct about them). I love all the rewards related to having finished story arcs, and crave those the most.
Endgame Crafting- I want my workshops to mean something, beyond a potential economic boost. I like that a story is being told with the current workshops, but it costs way too much to level them and see all the story. I like that the crafters have bios and personalities. I'd love for the way that I run the workshops to matter, but that would probably be a coding nightmare. I'd love to be able to achieve Master Crafting with less of a resource sink at the very end, as throwing tons of high end leather away only to be asked to do it all again and then more (for example) is tedious. Most of the folks you ask about crafting will give a two word answer, "Don't bother." The way the quests are written also feel a bit misleading. I think that I'll be getting the next Masterwork level, but instead I'm just roped into more senseless and expensive grinding for no more story and no new items that are engaging. I'd seriously love it if crafting could involve improving and modifying old pieces of equipment of a related type, and the amount of modification possible was related to the level of the character, workshop, and craftsperson.
Summation: Expandable transmute libraries Drop group-dependent drops as necessary elements in legacy campaigns Drop repetition required to achieve upgradable equipment Make RP account bound Expand class and race story arcs into later game play Lower cost to upgrade workshops. Make professions linked to upgrading old equipment
Risks and Concerns: Obviously, this is just based on my personal experience which is far from universal. I imagine it would take some massive work to create more class and race storyline. It would probably be tricky sorting out the right way to have professions upgrade old equipment, and most likely no matter how you managed it someone would feel you did it wrong.
Additional note: I found the ideas mentioned earlier by the developer who talked about being able to display collections and such super exciting! I'd have so much fun doing that, and have chatted with guildies about how great it would be to do it.
Would it be possible to let rewards like the rings that drop from Tower of the mad mage to be bind to account rather than bind to character? The more items we can have bind to account the better
The steps leading to character progression is in disarray.
FUNCTIONALITY
Everything is a mess right now; to be expected after so many years, but we demand that you clean it up.
1) There are FAR too many currencies in this game. This all needs to be collapsed into 3-5 currencies, preferably the model at the exchange vendor in the Bazaar. However, I would personally prefer the old 5 coin (Unicorn, Lion etc) model that the game started with. Break everything down into those currencies and STOP CREATING new ones... they are unnecessary.
As an example, what do you plan for us to do with Rat Lunar coins after the event? Do we wait 12 years for year of the rat to come around again so that we can spend the remainder? Did your team think about that at all? No? Not a surprise... and now we will live with Rat coin currencies for over a decade.
2) I am going to combine gear progression with campaign progression here. With the exception of 2 or 3 campaigns (AI being one of them) most of your current campaigns are for the 70-80 level players. Big changes need to be made to your campaign structure and how new players (or alts) gear themselves through your content.
I suggest that we break the campaigns into three categories. The first is the ones you can access while leveling say campaign levels 20-60. Next is the Level 70 campaigns plus room for some of the level 80 campaigns. Finally the highest tier should always be the last two or three campaigns that you released. All the tiers get adjusted as you release more content, but the Top level campaigns will always be the last two or three campaigns that were released. The Middle layer of campaigns gets expand as you release more content. The Lower tier is where you can place low character level things like AI.
The middle tier of campaigns needs to be sped up dramatically. Combined, they take an insane amount of time to get through compared to a new players leveling process. I would say that this middle tier needs to have all daily/weekly caps removed AND rewards for the tasks (quests, HEs, dungeon etc) need to be tripled. Again this is for the Middle tier and NOT for the Top tier (last three campaigns that you released). Let players progress through this stuff and remove the hurdles.
Keep your Daily/Weekly haul caps for the Top tier of campaigns. And you can decide what to do with the Low level tier. AI was a bit of a mess. If you started at level 20, you will be level 80 well before you finish the campaign... that's just poor design, I think.
3) Gearing up through this process. All gear rewarded as drops in the Middle tier of campaigns, should be pulled from a pool of drops (level specific non-dungeon drops) from the Top tier of campaigns. The reason is, two fold.
I) it makes playing through legacy campaigns worth it for max level players.
II) this eases the gearing process for new to 80 level characters. They can consume campaigns at their leisure (whichever they wish)... because they will die in something like Avernous. But will be able to pick up some random loot drops for completing quests and RNG drops that will greatly aid them in joining the rest of the players in the most recent campaign.
All current campaign specific loot gets moved to the campaign store (after you clean up the currency mess...) and collectors can shop as the want.
4) Stop making new gimmick campaign mechanics like Black Ice. It is cumbersome and dumb and you never return to it so stuff like this is just an annoyance. We end up siting on a couple of thousand Black Ice that is used for nothing but overload enchants, if we run out of better options.
5) Stop over creating excess junk campaign/dungeon drops. Seriously, Take a look at all the HAMSTER that your design team created and mathed out in terms of loot drops for Undermountain. It is a ridiculous number of items. So much wasted time and money on your end. Most of that HAMSTER gets refined or sold and you just clocked a whole bunch of hours in order to waste players time.
Some of those items could have been moved to the masterwork profession system instead, btw. That would have been a better model.
In short, we do not need all of your junk purples, there are plenty of greens and blues to junk up our bags. Clean up your item design team.
6) Professions/Masterworking - IMO this mechanic fails in every MMO because content creators have no desire to keep up with it and they do not commit to what it is supposed to be.
Professions, should be an avenue of gearing up or playtime easement. But it doesn't work out in MMO's for this reason: High level players don't want new players to receive gear without completing a specific dungeon. I don't agree with this sentiment. it is a game, and players should be able to play however they wish. My gear doesn't affect anyone else so who cares?
Your profession system is complex enough and very time consuming. There is no reason why masterwork professions should not be able to create gear from a campaign a few releases ago. Current Masterwork could be crafting Undermountain gear right now (or perhaps the campaign prior to UM). KEEP THE DUNGEON LOOT out of this model so players don't cry about TOMM (because players cry a lot about junk like e-acheivments and e-peens).
But make your profession system something that players want/need to do in case something never drops for them and they still want it a campaign or two down the road.
Whatever you do, do not make the materials needed be dungeon drops. My design is to have professions be an avenue for progression (and not alternative gear progression) to get real loot - everything outside of dungeons.
IN CONCLUSION Clean up all of this mess. Some of my suggestions would make a lot more sense for new players, looking over their currency tab and wondering how they can use all of the junk they collected.
> I think the bar is too high in recent content to a certain extent, I think content shouldn't be barely surmountable with max'd out everything, but rather, with maxed out everything you should be able to feel somewhat powerful instead of like a rag doll. There should probably be some mechanism to increase the difficulty to "hardcore", i.e. k-team, and the content should be designed to work with this functionallity to increase chances at chase items, or even unlock potential to acquire chase items. But I think weapon/artifact sets should be more accessible to casual players (those with like r13-r14's and w/o a leg mount), with the exception of MW items, as that's a whole different type of gating.
In general I think that there should be different ways to achieve progression. Skill should be one as it is in Tomm now, time should be another one, crafting a third and so on...
In the first mods BIS gear was an unbound drop in dungeons as well as something you could find in final chests, so you could either get it by beating difficult content (say Castle Never at the time) or by grinding AD to buy it at the auction. You could even offset bad RNG as you had the chance to sell the drops you didn't want to get AD to buy what you needed (I was very unlucky with RNG on my Royal Guard headpiece for my HR and finally bought it by selling an Avatar of War helm and using the AD to buy it).
Then things changed and BIS weapons had to be crafted using bound drops in dungeons (in mod2, but also in SKT). Then the pendulum swinged again and we got pure grind in Cloaked Ascendancy, then RNG in Undermountain for Alabaster, then Lionguard gated behind completion of one specific dungeon now and I'm sure I forgot something else.
There has never been a clear message to players about this stuff. Personally I liked the first approach more: a wide array of sellable unbound stuff spread over all content. You got what you were able to farm and could sell it to buy what you needed.
That undermines the achievement of the people who beat ToMM and is strictly going against the idea of a good progression system. Not everyone needs to have every item and if they want the item, they should have to put in the work for it.
Having an alternative to Lionheart weapons wont undermine the achievement of people who beat ToMM. Having alternative items to progress with doesn't go against a good progression system, it provides different paths people can take and caters to different types of players, builds, and classes. Having one specific item that's supposed to be BiS for everyone (without providing alternatives) gated behind one piece of content that is specifically designed so that most people can't run it, leads to alienating a large part of the player base, which isn't healthy for the game at all, though it might be healthy for a few people's egos. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if the game wasn't so expensive/time consuming to reach power levels required for said content.
You might say something along the lines of "people need to work to get..... and if they haven't they shouldn't be able to....", and generally I would agree. But when the cost to get there is so exorbitant for a video game, as it is now, you have to question the mental health of the people who are getting there. I admit I have an addictive personality, and have bouts of borderline mania (which some might confuse with tenacity) that I pour into progressing in this game, it's not healthy.
That undermines the achievement of the people who beat ToMM and is strictly going against the idea of a good progression system. Not everyone needs to have every item and if they want the item, they should have to put in the work for it.
No one cares that you beat ToMM. It is not work to play a video game... So unless you are committed to invite new players and those inexperienced in running TOMM every single time you run it, and take the time to slow everyone down and explain the mechanics and provide helpful tips, then you shouldn't gate the gear. Because otherwise, it is people like you that go against the health of the game.
9
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
That undermines the achievement of the people who beat ToMM and is strictly going against the idea of a good progression system. Not everyone needs to have every item and if they want the item, they should have to put in the work for it.
No one cares that you beat ToMM. It is not work to play a video game... So unless you are committed to invite new players and those inexperienced in running TOMM every single time you run it, and take the time to slow everyone down and explain the mechanics and provide helpful tips, then you shouldn't gate the gear. Because otherwise, it is people like you that go against the health of the game.
I say we remove all gates, and give everyone everything upon first login, including capped AD, and ZEN. For the sake of equality, non-work and health of the game.
Having an alternative to Lionheart weapons wont undermine the achievement of people who beat ToMM. Having alternative items to progress with doesn't go against a good progression system, it provides different paths people can take and caters to different types of players, builds, and classes. Having one specific item that's supposed to be BiS for everyone (without providing alternatives) gated behind one piece of content that is specifically designed so that most people can't run it, leads to alienating a large part of the player base, which isn't healthy for the game at all, though it might be healthy for a few people's egos. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if the game wasn't so expensive/time consuming to reach power levels required for said content.
True, with a caveat, the alternative path must have comparable investment in time/effort and comparable state. For example if there was additional set, lets call it Tigerheart which was crafting only, bound to account, and demanded huge investment, it would be not only alternative progress path, but an achievement on its on.
On the other hand if we put, for the hyperbole example, we add a "Ratheart" set as event item for rat coins, we indeed undermine the game progress.
5
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
edited February 2020
> @thefabricant said: > (Quote) > That undermines the achievement of the people who beat ToMM and is strictly going against the idea of a good progression system. Not everyone needs to have every item and if they want the item, they should have to put in the work for it.
Not everybody can complete Tomm. Sometimes it's your connection or your PC or the fact (like in my case) that I'm travelling all time (due to my job) and keeping a schedule with other players to do stuff like Tomm is almost impossible. In the past I had more time and was usually on top of the latest developments of the game (I was in the first reported successful run on Master Svardborg, with you by the way) Your point of view is very limited to the conditions you see fo yourself. Other players may have different constraints and they have right to grow and get the latest stuff, maybe in different ways than you do.
With my proposal if you can complete difficult content you will get the good stuff first and can use it to farm and sell more. People not able to complete the content will take more time and arrive at the stuff later on, or if they want they will open the wallet and buy it from the auction, which is good for the game as somebody has to pay for the servers, the developers and Cryptics profit.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
My suggestion consists of two points, which should be connected for better functionality. The first point is to introduce a auction house for guilds. Guilds can sell and buy guild ressources (like influence) there. The second point is a guild trader where guilds (in this regard guild leaders) can buy items with the astral diamant chests (from the guild ressources) to help player at their progression (e.g. companion upgrade tokens, mounts (even legendary)).
Feedback Goal
The suggestion aims to help small guilds as they can buy ressources cheaper at the auction house for guilds (first point). It aims to help big, old guilds as they have a option to get rid of ressources (which they do not need nowadays anyway if they are at level 20) and get currency that way. It aims as well (second point) to let guilds help new, unexperienced players as well and it gives the possibility to finance guild events with good rewards. Feedback Functionality For the first point a guild auction house NPC would have to be introduced with the suggested guild auction house where resources can be traded (sold and bought). It works with supply and demand, similiar to the normal auction house.
50 astral diamant chests for 2000 influence
For the second point a guild trader NPC would have to be introduced with items to be bought with guild ressources (astral diamant chests) depending on the level of the guild.
30 000 astral diamant chests for a legendary mount (2 or 3 available, perhaps one with stat bonus of hit points) 500 astral diamant chests for 50 preservation wards 1000 astral diamant chests for 1 coalescent ward 1000 astral diamant chests for 120 companion upgrade tokens
Risks & Concerns
There is the risk that guilds will not donate to other guilds of their alliance after implementation of the first point. There is the risk that the guild leaders leave guilds after buying items with the guild ressources (second point). This could be prevented that everything bought with guild ressources gets transfered to the guild bank and is account bound after taking it to personal storage (bags, ...).
Overview: Weapon / Armor enchantments - A reward that does not deserve its investment as time and money/AD. A problem facing the game in the acutal stage and which we had always faced in the past has been the imbalance created by these items that require a huge effort to raise them to the maximum rank.
Goal
The goal is to adjust and improve these objects to provide the player the satisfaction of progress and make relevant the investment/effort he puts into obtaining and improving the equipment. For an investment of 8M AD worth in reagents/ coalescent wards for rank 14, I expect the bonus to be one that meet the player's needs and give him an advantage in the fight. There should be no discrepancies between items bonuses, because the investment would not be relevant and would be treated as a loss, not as a reward for the effort made.
Functionality
Improving/balancing the bonuses of certain enchantments, no longer dependent on cooldowns, keeping the idea of providing diversity in choosing the type of enchantment for the type of situation in which it is used, the type of the class.
Risks & Concerns
If it is not properly implemented, imbalances will occur between stones that will make certain unusable enchants as we encounter now. (I am personally affected by this situation right now where I put my effort to raise a Prominence enchantment from scratch and now it is completely useless)
> That undermines the achievement of the people who beat ToMM and is strictly going against the idea of a good progression system. Not everyone needs to have every item and if they want the item, they should have to put in the work for it.
Not everybody can complete Tomm. Sometimes it's your connection or your PC or the fact (like in my case) that I'm travelling all time (due to my job) and keeping a schedule with other players to do stuff like Tomm is almost impossible. In the past I had more time and was usually on top of the latest developments of the game (I was in the first reported successful run on Master Svardborg, with you by the way)
Your point of view is very limited to the conditions you see fo yourself. Other players may have different constraints and they have right to grow and get the latest stuff, maybe in different ways than you do.
With my proposal if you can complete difficult content you will get the good stuff first and can use it to farm and sell more. People not able to complete the content will take more time and arrive at the stuff later on, or if they want they will open the wallet and buy it from the auction, which is good for the game as somebody has to pay for the servers, the developers and Cryptics profit.
They should have made the ToMM weapons unbound, that would adress your point right? No need for other ways of getting them, since u can do what u want, and buy them with the AD you earn.
Gold is a common yet underused quest reward. Give us non-crafters something other than med-death-kits to spend it on (new reward category).
Feedback Goal
Let gold purchase more things (have more gold sinks) with these new rewards. I have a few ideas:
Feedback Functionality
1 - Hirelings: temporary companions and / or mounts (24 hrs). You can use any/all of the available stable at any level with prices varying in ranges based on quality (rares are cheaper to hire than legendaries). They perform exactly as their non-temporary counterparts but gain no exp and vanish (along with their boons) once the timer expires.
2 - Stonghold Kitchen food: Not everyone has a level 20 stronghold to buy food from, so why not put it here? Any speed-boost consumable will probably also be a big hit.
3 - Stronghold supplies: When you have too much gold but not enough stronghold currency to build stuff.
4 - Grenades. Quickslot item. Like Avernus holywater I suppose?
5 - Temporary Costumes (24 hrs or whatever, similar to temporary halloween masks). I'm guessing the Moonstone Mask RP crowd might like this. Buy any apparel (just for looks). Would be cool to include class based things in the appearance tab - so a wizard could "wear" things like "Great weapon fighter - Heroic Duelist (pants)" with the "Ranger - Alliance Assault Armor (top)". For whatever reason.
As mentioned in one of my earlier posts in this thread, those same items can probably fill out some of the Vault of Piety too.
Risks & Concerns
While I tried to stick to systems already available, this obviously comes down to what the dev team is willing/able to do. Even if none of the above are used, I hope I at least gave you an idea of how vast your additional reward options can be - with stuff mostly already in game.
We actually have appearence items that requests you gold and some AD to change your outfits/colors. The gold is also used in removing weapon enchantments. You actually need gold to donate in Stronghold Coffers to progress. Food can be eighter optained from events or bought with guild marks from your stronghold. Personally I spend over 100 to 200 gold a day just by switching enchantments, switching colors on my outfit and crafting. I don't think this structure should be changed. But is just my point of view.
2
darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
What about hard version it should 100% have really tasty rewards. Because difficulty of this type of dungeons will be not about "you have to complete it 100 times wasting many hours to have chance to get something" (it will be about to complete it at least once). As good rewards I can suggest 100-150k AD (exactly astral diamonds, not just astral brilliants because they have daily cap wich can be reached on usual content) plus some random unique for each dungeon expensive loot.
This will never happen. Refined AD wont be obtainable in the game. Ever. The cap is there for a good reason, to control the game economy. If you allow players to "print" AD with no control, the economy will collapse. More.
Comments
According to Cryptic... But player experience is... Feedback Goal
To have better behaved people, change the dungeon rewards so that a res scroll use during the run means lesser rewards. To get the best rewards, people need to run without scrolls and hence shouldn't ever "bully" others into using them.
Feedback Functionality
If the loot is an RNG scale then this should be a simple maths thing. The roll is unmodified if the run is completed with no scrolls. With scroll use the roll gets a negative modifier. Alternatively, you could do the opposite where no-scroll runs get a bonus modifier but the effect is the same.
Either way, when someone uses or is suggested to use a scroll then everyone knows that the run has decreased in value. Which is fine for a training run.
Risks & Concerns
This would likely devalue res scrolls. Oh, and I suspect I'm about to get flamed for this suggestion too. :P
While people are participating in this discussion, I'd love it if folks could also keep in their back of the mind how they would divide this this topic into different ones while still keeping it a comprehensive discussion. For example, @krumple01 asked why should players feel all their progress is taken away after spending a lot of time and resources. This is a secondary theme that came up during the accessibility CDP discussion as well; it might be useful to be aware of recurrence of themes and if they should be their own topic or if they are naturally just embedded in multiple aspects of the game.
Make old mods worth while to revisit.
Goal:
To enable the upgrade of old (trash) armor/weapons to a higher tier.
Functionality:
Make it so that every new mod introduces an "upgrade" token that after much hard work (completion of the final dungeon for instance) could be used to upgrade any one gear item. This could be used to make one piece of equipment from the old mod more viable to equip (stats) and thus keep even the oldest of content relevant moving forward. Requiring many such tokens to upgrade a full set of armor/weapons for example, thus making the mixing and matching more fun/work. These tokens could be additive as in you will need to multiple tokens to upgrade one item from an old mod to make it current. For example elemental evil weapons to say an Ice wind dale ready one would require only one token, but the same weapon would require many steps and dungeon completions to make it viable as a mod 18 weapon with the stats to match, This could again make certain special weapon effects be fun to play with and variety is always a good thing.
Risks & Concerns:
The programming to implement these changes would require that the different mods be put in a certain order to show the progression of said mods. Along with the amount of programming to make the stages of each piece of gear is daunting but IMO for the variety and replayability alone it would make the entire game fresh again. There will again be a certain "meta" that would be the BIS, but that has always been the case anyways.
In Conclusion:
Once the token system is in place new mods could re-use the "old" token code thus making all old content as relevant as the new content.
I've been working on my tank as people keep asking if I have one, so I tried tanking TIC 2nd boss today, but quickly realized that I'm going to need well over 600k hp for that, probably in the 800k-1 million range. I really feel like there's going to quickly be a meta for TIC, Ranged DPS, Healadin, Tank w/ > 800k hp, idk if fighter or paladin will do better as my paladin got the HAMSTER kicked out of him today it wasn't even funny, I felt like a Powrie going up against a 28k Hulk or a beast.
Though, sometimes I do enjoy sitting down and doing difficult things, but I usually enjoy that on my own, not when there are other people counting on me. I'm not saying there shouldn't be very difficult group content, it's just that I haven't really been accepted into a coherent end-game group that can handle such content, so I can't really enjoy anything other than old stuff, and can't really progress because all of that content, and the rewards it provides, are outdated and worthless.
I would be pretty happy never running ToMM if there was an alternative weapon set with equal item level and weapon damage, for example, a new MW weapon set that I could craft on my own. Please do this soon, please please please. Perhaps, I would feel more comfortable with running tomm if I had an alternative to lionheart weaps, it would certainly help with being accepted into a group if I had something better than burnished weaps.
I think the bar is too high in recent content to a certain extent, I think content shouldn't be barely surmountable with max'd out everything, but rather, with maxed out everything you should be able to feel somewhat powerful instead of like a rag doll. There should probably be some mechanism to increase the difficulty to "hardcore", i.e. k-team, and the content should be designed to work with this functionallity to increase chances at chase items, or even unlock potential to acquire chase items. But I think weapon/artifact sets should be more accessible to casual players (those with like r13-r14's and w/o a leg mount), with the exception of MW items, as that's a whole different type of gating.
I know I said I would be jumping in today but it just wasn't possible due to today ending up being a very busy day for me. I should have more time tomorrow. All i would say is keep the ideas and thoughts coming. Whilst conversation about ideas is good I wouldn't drill to far down into any specific area just yet. We will do that as part of the second phase of this CDP.
Sorry I haven't engaged sooner and I am very much looking forward to doing so.
Chris
Trade-in and Upgrade Vendors or Professions
When mod17 launched we were given upwards of 300+ pieces of companion equipment, most of which got turned into Gold or RP, and around 40 pieces of new shirts and pants. The only "guaranteed' piece of companion equipment we wanted was after completing the Stardock quest line to unlock Tower of the Mad Mage, but event that was only sort of what was wanted as we were only able to choose between the single-stat pieces instead of all available IL 1010 pieces.
Personally I spent months going after 1 particular piece of companion equipment with no success. 4 toons running daily ME's along with Stardock WE's and FE's, with each having a rune placed to get an Etching upon completion. Do the math and that's about 30 Etchings per week per toon, over about 3 months. We're talking well over 1000 Zok Boxes and didn't get the 1 piece of companion gear I was chasing. Got multiples of many IL 1010 pieces, but never the Critical Strike + Critical Avoidance piece.
Same goes for the Fragment Expeditions, so many Shirts and Pants, but only one chance a week and 4 levels of each type.
I'd suggest one of these options:
After you complete the Teachings of Zermithon or whatever the Stardock quest line is called in which you get the box containing your choice of companion equipment, make it a repeatable quest line. At completion you get a choice of a double stat companion gear piece or clothing of your choice. It keeps people invested in running the content while at the same time knowing that they're making progress towards the item(s) they're chasing.
In Professions add new tasks to that would allow you to change and upgrade gear. For example, if you wanted to change a piece of companion gear into a different piece, you'd need whatever the required reagents would be, along with 2 pieces of same IL companion gear. Again, it keeps people invested in running the content while at the same time knowing that they're making progress towards the item(s) they're chasing.
GWF: Vretzina
OP: Vee
DC: Evee
CW: nezterV
Leader - Valaraukari Ascension
> Overview:
> Make old mods worth while to revisit.
>
> Goal:
> To enable the upgrade of old (trash) armor/weapons to a higher tier.
>
> Functionality:
> Make it so that every new mod introduces an "upgrade" token that after much hard work (completion of the final dungeon for instance) could be used to upgrade any one gear item. This could be used to make one piece of equipment from the old mod more viable to equip (stats) and thus keep even the oldest of content relevant moving forward. Requiring many such tokens to upgrade a full set of armor/weapons for example, thus making the mixing and matching more fun/work. These tokens could be additive as in you will need to multiple tokens to upgrade one item from an old mod to make it current. For example elemental evil weapons to say an Ice wind dale ready one would require only one token, but the same weapon would require many steps and dungeon completions to make it viable as a mod 18 weapon with the stats to match, This could again make certain special weapon effects be fun to play with and variety is always a good thing.
>
> Risks & Concerns:
> The programming to implement these changes would require that the different mods be put in a certain order to show the progression of said mods. Along with the amount of programming to make the stages of each piece of gear is daunting but IMO for the variety and replayability alone it would make the entire game fresh again. There will again be a certain "meta" that would be the BIS, but that has always been the case anyways.
>
> In Conclusion:
> Once the token system is in place new mods could re-use the "old" token code thus making all old content as relevant as the new content.
Wouldn’t it be better if crafters were able to disassemble older gear to reuse the set/equip bonuses on new gear?
> I mentioned this in the VIP CDP, but it could very easily translate into rewards progression as well.
>
> Trade-in and Upgrade Vendors or Professions
>
> When mod17 launched we were given upwards of 300+ pieces of companion equipment, most of which got turned into Gold or RP, and around 40 pieces of new shirts and pants. The only "guaranteed' piece of companion equipment we wanted was after completing the Stardock quest line to unlock Tower of the Mad Mage, but event that was only sort of what was wanted as we were only able to choose between the single-stat pieces instead of all available IL 1010 pieces.
>
> Personally I spent months going after 1 particular piece of companion equipment with no success. 4 toons running daily ME's along with Stardock WE's and FE's, with each having a rune placed to get an Etching upon completion. Do the math and that's about 30 Etchings per week per toon, over about 3 months. We're talking well over 1000 Zok Boxes and didn't get the 1 piece of companion gear I was chasing. Got multiples of many IL 1010 pieces, but never the Critical Strike + Critical Avoidance piece.
>
> Same goes for the Fragment Expeditions, so many Shirts and Pants, but only one chance a week and 4 levels of each type.
>
> I'd suggest one of these options:
>
> After you complete the Teachings of Zermithon or whatever the Stardock quest line is called in which you get the box containing your choice of companion equipment, make it a repeatable quest line. At completion you get a choice of a double stat companion gear piece or clothing of your choice. It keeps people invested in running the content while at the same time knowing that they're making progress towards the item(s) they're chasing.
>
> In Professions add new tasks to that would allow you to change and upgrade gear. For example, if you wanted to change a piece of companion gear into a different piece, you'd need whatever the required reagents would be, along with 2 pieces of same IL companion gear. Again, it keeps people invested in running the content while at the same time knowing that they're making progress towards the item(s) they're chasing.
Definitely agree on this. Yesterday I was talking to a good wizard in our alliance and he's still chasing companions belts with defense and an offensive stat in order to bring defense to cap for Tomm and TIC.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
> (Quote)
> I think the bar is too high in recent content to a certain extent, I think content shouldn't be barely surmountable with max'd out everything, but rather, with maxed out everything you should be able to feel somewhat powerful instead of like a rag doll. There should probably be some mechanism to increase the difficulty to "hardcore", i.e. k-team, and the content should be designed to work with this functionallity to increase chances at chase items, or even unlock potential to acquire chase items. But I think weapon/artifact sets should be more accessible to casual players (those with like r13-r14's and w/o a leg mount), with the exception of MW items, as that's a whole different type of gating.
In general I think that there should be different ways to achieve progression. Skill should be one as it is in Tomm now, time should be another one, crafting a third and so on...
In the first mods BIS gear was an unbound drop in dungeons as well as something you could find in final chests, so you could either get it by beating difficult content (say Castle Never at the time) or by grinding AD to buy it at the auction. You could even offset bad RNG as you had the chance to sell the drops you didn't want to get AD to buy what you needed (I was very unlucky with RNG on my Royal Guard headpiece for my HR and finally bought it by selling an Avatar of War helm and using the AD to buy it).
Then things changed and BIS weapons had to be crafted using bound drops in dungeons (in mod2, but also in SKT). Then the pendulum swinged again and we got pure grind in Cloaked Ascendancy, then RNG in Undermountain for Alabaster, then Lionguard gated behind completion of one specific dungeon now and I'm sure I forgot something else.
There has never been a clear message to players about this stuff. Personally I liked the first approach more: a wide array of sellable unbound stuff spread over all content. You got what you were able to farm and could sell it to buy what you needed.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
FEEDBACK OVERVIEW
Streamline (PRIMARILY LEGACY) Campaign Rewards .
FEEDBACK GOAL
Reduce confusion and increase efficiency inn campaign progression, and Guild Advancement.
FUNCTIONALITY
Looking at the sheer volume of different currencies on the "Riches" Tab it is clear that there are simply too many.
Introducing multiple currencies when new content drops is a reasonable practice, it allows variety in the rewards, and prevents fast farming for "chase" items and campaign completion.
A limit on any one currency acts as an effective cap on campaign progress, while allowing continued farming for the lower currency.
This is exemplified by the dual currency system in Barovia, with its simple "Omens" and "Barovian Coins" model.
But too many of the Legacy Campaigns have waaaay too many currencies.
At the time they were launched it probably made sense. At the time a Mod is launched it is obviously the most up to date, and will see the most ardent grinding and focus by players, so the variety of multiple currencies adds a layer of interest and goal achievement. But when those campaigns are years old, that variety becomes an albatross around newer players' necks, slowing down their progress when they need to be fast tracking toward the newer content.
The Well of Dragons is one of the worst examples of this. And brings me to the other part of the problem; Guild Mimic Contributions.
Last week I was burning through some Legacy Campaign Quests for Sybella on one of my alts who had built up quite the collection of them. I completed 5. Since my Guild has just built a new structure and has moved on to another, our Treasures of Tyranny was seriously depleted. And we need 400'000 to get our Lumberyard to Rank 5. I switched the bonus currency on my character's Legacy Campaign rewards to Tyranny. Two of the Quests were Tyranny, so in effect I was about to get 7 rewards worth of Tyranny currencies. This was in addition to the 5 Well of Dragons quests I had completed in order to complete one of the Legacy quests...
I cashed the quests in with Sybella, trotted over to the guild and dumped all the Tyranny currencies into the Mimic for a grand total of less than 10K.
This is pitiful...
What I suggest is streamlining currencies in old campaigns.
Merge the existing multiple currencies into a maximum of two. Change the requirements to advance the campaign tree, so that tertiary currencies become the same as the initial.
Example on Icewind Dale;
- Get rid of Dwarf Gold and Auril's Tears and just have a single "hard" currency, in addition to Konig Coin allowing Reputation to act as the top level metric to unlock Campaign Tasks/Boons and the new currency to open those tasks/boons. (I still think this is too many for such an old campaign, and it may even be better to also remove either Reputation or Konig Coin but... baby steps...)
- Instead of needing a combination of Tears and Gold, just combine the current required number of multiple currencies into a total of the new currencies.
- Simply unlocking the Dwarven Valley allows access to MORE of that one currency, barely making a jot of difference to the speed of advancement, (OK the second Boon would be a little easier to get...)
Continuing to use Icewind Dale as an example, we also have Kessell's Sigils and Black Ice. IF you want to bother spending 35'000 (ish) Sigils to get all the transmutes (Free Barovia or Undermountain gear renders it useless as anything else), that currency essentially becomes redundant. By the time you have enough to buy either of the pieces of artifact gear, you are (now we are many mods down the road) bound to have got something better.Of course, that's not the end of it. Hidden in your Professions are MORE Icewind Dale currencies... If you want to use that stack of Black Ice, you also have to have a bunch of other stuff that drops from HEs.
So...
Icewind Dale... in addition to the Reputation Unlock we have...
Konig Coin
Auril's Tear
Dwarf Gold
Kessels Sigil
Black Ice
Blackiron Ore
Black Ice Band
Black Ice Spine
Black Ice Splinter
Faceted Black Ice Fragment
Black Ice Core
Twisted Black Ice Fragment
Captured Black Ice Chunk
Plus a couple of current Professions Resources, plus lesser versions of 6 overload enchantments.
ALL of those are listed in stores associated with IWD as "currencies". Yet ONLY Konig Coin, Dwarf Gold, and Auril's Tear count towards Guild Contributions.
Now I know, and most of the people currently playing know, that this is a hangover from the old Professions system when Black Ice was a Profession in its own right.
But now it's not. So it needs sorting out.
I would suggest, in addition to merging Dwarf Gold and Auril's Tears, reduce the number of Black Ice "Crafting" currencies to at most two enhanced Black Ice ingredients (One "Lesser" one "Greater"), allowing people to choose to farm the overloads they want.
Get rid of Kessel's Sigils and use Black Ice to buy the transmutes.
Also, and apply this to ALL Legacy Zones where Guild Contribution currencies can be farmed, (including any future changes) replace the currency drops that have been removed with Blue Guild Vouchers of the same type as are available in the "Siege of Neverwinter" Event.
I know that there are people out there who will organise Guild and Alliance HE farms in legacy zones if those HEs drop blue vouchers. (I'm one of them) and for the likes of Sharanadar, (where there are no HEs) put them in the main quest givers rewards, and random drops in the three lair quests.
I could go on with every zone giving specific examples, but don't think I need to.
- Remove defunct currencies and absorb their purpose into a smaller, manageable purse of coins.
- Add Unbound Blue Guild Vouchers that relate to the Zone (where appropriate).
RISKS AND CONCERNSI think that the main sticking point with this would be push back from that area of the Veteran player base who don't want things to be easier/faster for newer players than it was for them.
Though I would like to point out to those players all the advantages that we had in terms of how much rAD we could convert and how easy it was to acquire it, "back in the day". So when they say that it's not fair suggesting that new players should get fast track access to VIP rewards without having to buy 12 ranks, I'd say, "Then let them have... let's say THREE years of character rAD caps, actual rAD on Invoke instead of bonus, and rAD Salvage, and see how you feel about that?"
I used to regularly create 2 million AD a week without much effort, and was able to buy as much VIP as I wanted/needed because on XBox our economy (for now anyway) still works.
I'd also point out that it was much easier to complete what are now Legacy Zones at the time they were launched because there was literally nothing more to do beyond them... they were the top end content. So farming HE's was a thing, now that's only a thing in Barovia (for Yester Hill) and Well of Dragons because people still need those Coffers for the weekly.
SUMMARY
This is a mixture of rewards and progression category but I have a simple currency that I personally believe people would love to grind. Once the loot chances of dungeon lockboxes are altered accordingly (preferable with dungeon difficulty tiers) then allowing players to grind REROLLs, would create an opportunity of endless progression. TOMM is an great example of it, taking into account all the pots, overloads, scrolls and etc, you really do not make profit unless you have rerolls or you grind the hell out of it.
Risks and Concerns
People will be less inclined to play alts but i do not like the idea of forcing players to play alts to begin with.
Feedback Goal: Offering a non-technical viewpoint from a casual solo player.
Feedback Functionality: This is where I'll break this down into the requested feedback areas.
Reward Quality/Time Spent - I love all the game areas and stories, and enjoy going through the campaigns at first. The problem is that I hit some things like time gating, massive repetition, and required items that are hard to get as a solo person running through old content. The end result of such efforts can feel great on a story level, or even on the level of having a new transmute that shows that I've finished something. It can feel rather flat on the level of the functionality of the item really only being a transmute, small amount of RP, or small amount of currency. To make matters worse, I can't pay to expand the amount of transmutes that I can store in my library. I would like to be able to pay for more transmute space. I don't mind grinding or buying completion tokens for old campaigns, but would love to see some of those group-dependent drops removed from the items necessary to progress.
Existing and New Reward Categories- I like boons, and I enjoy earning them through campaigns. I love interesting items that can work as transmutes, but feel some of the obsolete equipment takes too much grinding for the result. (Collecting motes for the Elemental Evil campaign stuff, for example.)
I feel pretty marginal about the lockboxes lately, as they have RP (which is useful) but not much else. One minor tweak that would make them feel better is to make RP account bound, as folks have suggested earlier. I run a lot of alts, and that would be a big bonus.
Rewards Through Progress Leveling- I sort of felt a major dropoff in fun as my characters failed to move their class and race story arcs forward. Dropped equipment starts out fun and relevant, but then ends up feeling weirdly trivial over time. I do appreciate equipment that has small flavor text, and items that mark encounters (as long as those piece of equipment have something distinct about them). I love all the rewards related to having finished story arcs, and crave those the most.
Endgame Crafting- I want my workshops to mean something, beyond a potential economic boost. I like that a story is being told with the current workshops, but it costs way too much to level them and see all the story. I like that the crafters have bios and personalities. I'd love for the way that I run the workshops to matter, but that would probably be a coding nightmare. I'd love to be able to achieve Master Crafting with less of a resource sink at the very end, as throwing tons of high end leather away only to be asked to do it all again and then more (for example) is tedious. Most of the folks you ask about crafting will give a two word answer, "Don't bother." The way the quests are written also feel a bit misleading. I think that I'll be getting the next Masterwork level, but instead I'm just roped into more senseless and expensive grinding for no more story and no new items that are engaging. I'd seriously love it if crafting could involve improving and modifying old pieces of equipment of a related type, and the amount of modification possible was related to the level of the character, workshop, and craftsperson.
Summation:
Expandable transmute libraries
Drop group-dependent drops as necessary elements in legacy campaigns
Drop repetition required to achieve upgradable equipment
Make RP account bound
Expand class and race story arcs into later game play
Lower cost to upgrade workshops.
Make professions linked to upgrading old equipment
Risks and Concerns:
Obviously, this is just based on my personal experience which is far from universal.
I imagine it would take some massive work to create more class and race storyline.
It would probably be tricky sorting out the right way to have professions upgrade old equipment, and most likely no matter how you managed it someone would feel you did it wrong.
Additional note: I found the ideas mentioned earlier by the developer who talked about being able to display collections and such super exciting! I'd have so much fun doing that, and have chatted with guildies about how great it would be to do it.
FEEDBACK OVERVIEW
Streamline everything
FEEDBACK GOAL
The steps leading to character progression is in disarray.
FUNCTIONALITY
Everything is a mess right now; to be expected after so many years, but we demand that you clean it up.
1) There are FAR too many currencies in this game. This all needs to be collapsed into 3-5 currencies, preferably the model at the exchange vendor in the Bazaar. However, I would personally prefer the old 5 coin (Unicorn, Lion etc) model that the game started with. Break everything down into those currencies and STOP CREATING new ones... they are unnecessary.
As an example, what do you plan for us to do with Rat Lunar coins after the event? Do we wait 12 years for year of the rat to come around again so that we can spend the remainder? Did your team think about that at all? No? Not a surprise... and now we will live with Rat coin currencies for over a decade.
2) I am going to combine gear progression with campaign progression here. With the exception of 2 or 3 campaigns (AI being one of them) most of your current campaigns are for the 70-80 level players. Big changes need to be made to your campaign structure and how new players (or alts) gear themselves through your content.
I suggest that we break the campaigns into three categories. The first is the ones you can access while leveling say campaign levels 20-60. Next is the Level 70 campaigns plus room for some of the level 80 campaigns. Finally the highest tier should always be the last two or three campaigns that you released. All the tiers get adjusted as you release more content, but the Top level campaigns will always be the last two or three campaigns that were released. The Middle layer of campaigns gets expand as you release more content. The Lower tier is where you can place low character level things like AI.
The middle tier of campaigns needs to be sped up dramatically. Combined, they take an insane amount of time to get through compared to a new players leveling process. I would say that this middle tier needs to have all daily/weekly caps removed AND rewards for the tasks (quests, HEs, dungeon etc) need to be tripled. Again this is for the Middle tier and NOT for the Top tier (last three campaigns that you released). Let players progress through this stuff and remove the hurdles.
Keep your Daily/Weekly haul caps for the Top tier of campaigns. And you can decide what to do with the Low level tier. AI was a bit of a mess. If you started at level 20, you will be level 80 well before you finish the campaign... that's just poor design, I think.
3) Gearing up through this process. All gear rewarded as drops in the Middle tier of campaigns, should be pulled from a pool of drops (level specific non-dungeon drops) from the Top tier of campaigns. The reason is, two fold.
I) it makes playing through legacy campaigns worth it for max level players.
II) this eases the gearing process for new to 80 level characters. They can consume campaigns at their leisure (whichever they wish)... because they will die in something like Avernous. But will be able to pick up some random loot drops for completing quests and RNG drops that will greatly aid them in joining the rest of the players in the most recent campaign.
All current campaign specific loot gets moved to the campaign store (after you clean up the currency mess...) and collectors can shop as the want.
4) Stop making new gimmick campaign mechanics like Black Ice. It is cumbersome and dumb and you never return to it so stuff like this is just an annoyance. We end up siting on a couple of thousand Black Ice that is used for nothing but overload enchants, if we run out of better options.
5) Stop over creating excess junk campaign/dungeon drops. Seriously, Take a look at all the HAMSTER that your design team created and mathed out in terms of loot drops for Undermountain. It is a ridiculous number of items. So much wasted time and money on your end. Most of that HAMSTER gets refined or sold and you just clocked a whole bunch of hours in order to waste players time.
Some of those items could have been moved to the masterwork profession system instead, btw. That would have been a better model.
In short, we do not need all of your junk purples, there are plenty of greens and blues to junk up our bags. Clean up your item design team.
6) Professions/Masterworking - IMO this mechanic fails in every MMO because content creators have no desire to keep up with it and they do not commit to what it is supposed to be.
Professions, should be an avenue of gearing up or playtime easement. But it doesn't work out in MMO's for this reason: High level players don't want new players to receive gear without completing a specific dungeon. I don't agree with this sentiment. it is a game, and players should be able to play however they wish. My gear doesn't affect anyone else so who cares?
Your profession system is complex enough and very time consuming. There is no reason why masterwork professions should not be able to create gear from a campaign a few releases ago. Current Masterwork could be crafting Undermountain gear right now (or perhaps the campaign prior to UM). KEEP THE DUNGEON LOOT out of this model so players don't cry about TOMM (because players cry a lot about junk like e-acheivments and e-peens).
But make your profession system something that players want/need to do in case something never drops for them and they still want it a campaign or two down the road.
Whatever you do, do not make the materials needed be dungeon drops. My design is to have professions be an avenue for progression (and not alternative gear progression) to get real loot - everything outside of dungeons.
IN CONCLUSION
Clean up all of this mess. Some of my suggestions would make a lot more sense for new players, looking over their currency tab and wondering how they can use all of the junk they collected.
You might say something along the lines of "people need to work to get..... and if they haven't they shouldn't be able to....", and generally I would agree. But when the cost to get there is so exorbitant for a video game, as it is now, you have to question the mental health of the people who are getting there. I admit I have an addictive personality, and have bouts of borderline mania (which some might confuse with tenacity) that I pour into progressing in this game, it's not healthy.
No one cares that you beat ToMM. It is not work to play a video game...
So unless you are committed to invite new players and those inexperienced in running TOMM every single time you run it, and take the time to slow everyone down and explain the mechanics and provide helpful tips, then you shouldn't gate the gear. Because otherwise, it is people like you that go against the health of the game.
On the other hand if we put, for the hyperbole example, we add a "Ratheart" set as event item for rat coins, we indeed undermine the game progress.
> (Quote)
> That undermines the achievement of the people who beat ToMM and is strictly going against the idea of a good progression system. Not everyone needs to have every item and if they want the item, they should have to put in the work for it.
Not everybody can complete Tomm. Sometimes it's your connection or your PC or the fact (like in my case) that I'm travelling all time (due to my job) and keeping a schedule with other players to do stuff like Tomm is almost impossible. In the past I had more time and was usually on top of the latest developments of the game (I was in the first reported successful run on Master Svardborg, with you by the way)
Your point of view is very limited to the conditions you see fo yourself. Other players may have different constraints and they have right to grow and get the latest stuff, maybe in different ways than you do.
With my proposal if you can complete difficult content you will get the good stuff first and can use it to farm and sell more. People not able to complete the content will take more time and arrive at the stuff later on, or if they want they will open the wallet and buy it from the auction, which is good for the game as somebody has to pay for the servers, the developers and Cryptics profit.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Feedback Overview
My suggestion consists of two points, which should be connected for better functionality. The first point is to introduce a auction house for guilds. Guilds can sell and buy guild ressources (like influence) there. The second point is a guild trader where guilds (in this regard guild leaders) can buy items with the astral diamant chests (from the guild ressources) to help player at their progression (e.g. companion upgrade tokens, mounts (even legendary)).Feedback Goal
The suggestion aims to help small guilds as they can buy ressources cheaper at the auction house for guilds (first point). It aims to help big, old guilds as they have a option to get rid of ressources (which they do not need nowadays anyway if they are at level 20) and get currency that way. It aims as well (second point) to let guilds help new, unexperienced players as well and it gives the possibility to finance guild events with good rewards.Feedback Functionality
For the first point a guild auction house NPC would have to be introduced with the suggested guild auction house where resources can be traded (sold and bought). It works with supply and demand, similiar to the normal auction house.
For the second point a guild trader NPC would have to be introduced with items to be bought with guild ressources (astral diamant chests) depending on the level of the guild.
500 astral diamant chests for 50 preservation wards
1000 astral diamant chests for 1 coalescent ward
1000 astral diamant chests for 120 companion upgrade tokens
Risks & Concerns
There is the risk that guilds will not donate to other guilds of their alliance after implementation of the first point. There is the risk that the guild leaders leave guilds after buying items with the guild ressources (second point). This could be prevented that everything bought with guild ressources gets transfered to the guild bank and is account bound after taking it to personal storage (bags, ...).Weapon / Armor enchantments - A reward that does not deserve its investment as time and money/AD.
A problem facing the game in the acutal stage and which we had always faced in the past has been
the imbalance created by these items that require a huge effort to raise them to the maximum rank.
Goal
The goal is to adjust and improve these objects to provide the player the satisfaction of
progress and make relevant the investment/effort he puts into obtaining and improving the equipment.
For an investment of 8M AD worth in reagents/ coalescent wards for rank 14, I expect the bonus to be one that
meet the player's needs and give him an advantage in the fight. There should be no discrepancies between items
bonuses, because the investment would not be relevant and would be treated as a loss, not as a reward for the effort made.
Functionality
Improving/balancing the bonuses of certain enchantments, no longer dependent on cooldowns, keeping
the idea of providing diversity in choosing the type of enchantment for the type of situation in which it is used, the type of
the class.
Risks & Concerns
If it is not properly implemented, imbalances will occur between stones that will make certain unusable enchants as we encounter now. (I am personally affected by this situation right now where I put my effort to raise a Prominence enchantment from scratch and now it is completely useless)
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